Amber's Guardian Fighters tanking Guide

epclipseingmoon

Hey all,

Before I start this guide I would like to say a Guardian Fighter can handle a lot of mobs and thus can tank really well despite what a lot of other people say. This guide is based on how to be effective as a punching bag for all mobs in the area and this takes a lot of practice because the GF is probably the hardest class to learn to fill your team role.

For anyone who does not understand the true role of a tank please read this:

A tank is a style of character in gaming, often associated with a character class. A common convention in real-time strategy games, role-playing games, Fighting Games and MUDs, tanks redirect enemy attacks or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units. Since this role often requires them to suffer large amounts of damage, they rely on large amounts of vitality or armor, evasiveness and misdirection, or self regeneration.

Got that paragraph from Wikipedia but that sums up our role, I have noticed many people seem to not realize our purpose.

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Amber's Guardian Fighter Tanking Guide

Note this style of tanking takes lots of practice and also you do have to change your timing with different gear if it changes your guard meter especially. Also A GF will never be a dps monster like all other classes.
The reason why no one takes us GF’s to the dungeon is because of the end dps tree all current guides will get you on the bottom of the pain giver board. Seeing a super low dps GF over and over turns people off even if they’re using gear like the knight captain to buff everyone. Even if you buff everyone 5 – 15% that most of the time will only count as a 4 man run because you are not doing much damage. I would only gear to help the team if I played the support class aka the devoted cleric.

First I would like to talk about spec. The only tanking path is Iron Vanguard and Conqueror is a must!
Powers and Feats can be found here: http://nwcalc.com/gf?b=mwv:27siq4:1ye3ls,19i3n0k:1u5551:150000:1u0000&h=1&p=ivn
If your human put the rest into Ubiquitous Shield.

Abilities spec along these lines in pic: note try to reach that defence and deflect first before other skills.



Boons
Sharandar: Dark Fey Hunter - Fey Precision - Elven Haste - Elven Ferosity - Elven Resolve
Dread Ring: Conjurer's Gambit - Evoker's Thirst - Forbidden Pierceing - Shadowtouch - Rampageing Madness
Icewind Dale: Weathering the Storm - Refreshing Chill - Rapid Thaw - Cool Resolve - Winter's Bounty

Powers best for tanking:
Daily’s: Indomitable Strength – Fighters Recovery
Encounters: Lunging Strike – Enforced Threat – Frontline Surge
At-Will: Cleave – Threatening Rush
Class Feature: Combat Superiority – Enhanced Mark

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My tanking style:

As a guardian fighter you are the person who should lead rather than follow your party, as soon as you get close to mobs lunge at them and use enforced threat and cleave them a couple of times then jump to the next group probably with threatening rush cause lunging strike would probably still be on cool down and strike that group. That’s the basic part rinse and repeat but also watch your party if something attacks them, lunge or threatening rush to them and cleave to collect agro.

Never just stand and block keep moving back when you have a lot of mobs on you.

So now you will have a lot of mobs after you don’t run to much rather block run back to avoid aoes when shield breaks. Once your shield breaks be careful and use frontline, lunging and threatening rush but keep jumping away to build action points for fighters recovery. As soon as fighter’s recovery is ready cast it and go all in no need to block for a few seconds. If you get surrounded, use frontline to create an opening to escape. But try to keep the mob in one area unless you’re kiting adds for a boss like in the frozen heart for example.

You will die many times while you learn and prefect this style. You will need to be able to judge when to move back from the mobs before your shield breaks so just don’t give up. When you start to master this style you won’t need to use many potions either.

Only time I change skills is for MC and VT final boss, I swap Enforced threat for Knights challenge even though it is a bugged skill.

The reason to take all agro is because your aoe classes can do tones more damage if the mobs are all together. I have seen many guides that recommend knight’s Valor but that does not work if you are being a real tank. The others wont get hurt as much anyway using my style but they will have to watch the aoes.

Well that’s the basic guide I will revise and add to it eventually though as something’s probably don’t make sense.

ripyourlipsoff

Nice, I wonder if it would be better to use the Black Ice Ioun Stone? Because you would gain 93 in every stats opposed to just the 2 stats the cat gives with the 200 deflection bonus?

epclipseingmoon

Well the cat is an augment so you get all stat points from the gear you put on it and all the normal stuff with augments. Although most stones are probally better I just like cats lol.

ripyourlipsoff

epclipseingmoon wrote: »

Well the cat is an augment so you get all stat points from the gear you put on it and all the normal stuff with augments. Although most stones are probally better I just like cats lol.

Yea look up Black Ice Ioun of Stone it also is an augment but gives 93 stats to ALL stats. Not just Recovery and Crit

http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Black_Ice_Ioun_Stone

93 at 30 in all stats!

Black Ice Ioun Stone
Augment, Rank 1
Binding icon.png Binds on Equip

Hit Points:
10
Power:
5
Critical Strike:
5
Recovery:
5
Armor Penetration:
5
Defense:
5
Deflection:
5
Regeneration:
5
Life Steal:
5

onodrain

How does threat work in this game? How do you stay at the top of the mob's threat list?

ripyourlipsoff

onodrain wrote: »

How does threat work in this game? How do you stay at the top of the mob's threat list?

You have to visibly watch, you mark the targets with Enforced Threat, or Threatening Rush, then you have a Hard Taunt tab feature which is kinda meh.

So basically unlike FFX1 or WoW you need to actually watch whats going on.

onodrain

I understand the threat markers. But that is not how threat works.

The assumption would be that threat is the damage you do to a monster multiplied by a threat modifier. That modifier is 1 for classes other than GF. That modifier is manipulated with threat reducing feats, etc. The GF has threat multipliers for that modifier. If the GF's damage is so low that with these threat modifiers they still do not do more threat than the other party members' damage, then they cannot take threat away. My understanding is enforced threat makes monster's attack you, but if you do not do enough damage to them to get to the top of their threat meter, they will go to whoever is on the top of their threat list when enforced threat expires.

Healing also causes threat based on the amount of healing done. When a mob first spawns in a fight and the only thing registering on their threat meter is the DC heals, then they go for the DC.

Threat deteriorates over time. It is probably weighted such that more recent damage has higher threat than damage done 6 seconds prior.

That is what I meant by...does anyone know how threat works in this game. I am looking for validation, as until you understand that game mechanic, you cannot manipulate it appropriately. A tank's function is soaking damage and manipulating threat.

ripyourlipsoff

Oh you want formulas and Math... I don't know?

You are correct that sometimes because the GF has to move around all the time from a broken guard or avoiding bid RED attacks he lacks the ability to maintain threat, especially on large groups of adds as his abilities are capped I believe at 5. So 15-25 adds only 5 can be taunted at a time also Tabbed Mark for Boss, add to that as you said GF damage output is so low the bosss/ adds don't even notice while being hit for massive damage from GWF / CW.


That is why Tanks are not used or needed.

masterjewstar

Actually now the target limit for enforced is 8.

I use swordmaster protector and tank just fine so IV conq is not 100% necessary only real difference is FLS.

Other than that you are spot on with the reason to tank or have a tank.

epclipseingmoon

ono in this game the whole threat spec is different to most games. Enforced threat does not make monsters attack you because the damage is to low but so you have to cleave or surge them a few times to keep them after you. The mark only adds to your threat gen you have to attack them after the mark to get them to go after tank. After they are after you it’s actually hard to lose the agro. Course you need to keep attacking but not so much and you still keep using your aoe enforced threat anyway so you won’t lose the agro either way.

A GF has to be observant like a dc of all the team members and rather than heal intercept and steal agro off your ally. I would say being a GF requires you to be more observant than even a dc btw.

So ono when are you going to make a GF?

epclipseingmoon

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

Oh you want formulas and Math... I don't know?

You are correct that sometimes because the GF has to move around all the time from a broken guard or avoiding bid RED attacks he lacks the ability to maintain threat, especially on large groups of adds as his abilities are capped I believe at 5. So 15-25 adds only 5 can be taunted at a time also Tabbed Mark for Boss, add to that as you said GF damage output is so low the bosss/ adds don't even notice while being hit for massive damage from GWF / CW.


That is why Tanks are not used or needed.

yeah even my guide will not help speedrunners because a gf and dc is not needed at 15k+ cws and gwfs are the real classes to play... then again we may get a super buff mod 4 like what they did to the gwf ages ago. theres hope atleast...

epclipseingmoon

masterjewstar wrote: »

Actually now the target limit for enforced is 8.

I use swordmaster protector and tank just fine so IV conq is not 100% necessary only real difference is FLS.

Other than that you are spot on with the reason to tank or have a tank.

With swordmaster spec you also lose threatening rush and thats a huge loss. swordmaster is nicer dpswise but more glassy guess thats why you went protector i love swordmaster for just one skill weapons master strike but I speced Iron Vanguard cause it makes tanking everything far easyier.

masterjewstar

its not that big of a loss this is the build i went off of its a reflective/protective based GF that generates more and more aggro as it and its party gets hit and is able to become immune to damage for a short time due to steel defense; long enough to get your shield or health back up or whatever you need to do. it doesnt really rely on dealing high damage to get the aggro it gains aggro from numerous damages.

it also uses alotta powers that most GF wouldnt dare use in the same situations.

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?566921-The-Iron-Maiden-A-Reflect-Based-Protector-Build-for-Swordmaster-GF-s

Though i suppose without this build i dont really know how far SM could go but it works for me.

But yeah, wms is a great skill.

Good job on the thread btw because it outlines several misconceptions regarding the GF which is something people need.

thynael21

It looks like a good guide for tanking. I just got one question... Where did cryptic state that the GF would have a tanking role or be a "Tank"?
Don't get me wrong as i don't mean to offend someone. But in D&D something like a "Tank" does not exist. We are a "Fighter"-class just like the GWF. So everything we are capable of a GWF should be and is currently (probably better) able to too...

masterjewstar

its outlined in all their powers that they are a tank; common sense says its a tank; cryptic doesnt even need to say it.

And GWF are only stronger because theres a huge difference in weapon damage ~ 300+ which scales depending on the power even thier lowest epic sword is 100 wep damage higher than our best. GWF also do not have aggro generators or skills to protect others thier "protection" is to knock enemies down.

Play wise they are completely different.

and again under the misconception that GWF's tank when thier damage taken is much higher doesnt mean they are tanks it means they have personal survival while GF is meant for party survival. there is a certain point where GFs are "not needed" but that point is only because we havent gotten further in the dungeon side if there were a 15k dungeon chances are people would need a tank.

eclipse sorry for over posting.

epclipseingmoon

thynael21 wrote: »

It looks like a good guide for tanking. I just got one question... Where did cryptic state that the GF would have a tanking role or be a "Tank"?
Don't get me wrong as i don't mean to offend someone. But in D&D something like a "Tank" does not exist. We are a "Fighter"-class just like the GWF. So everything we are capable of a GWF should be and is currently (probably better) able to too...

But you are a Guardian too lol fact is a GWF cannot out tank a good GF in regards to threat gen. GWFS are the preferred tank because of their high end dps.

epclipseingmoon

masterjewstar wrote: »

eclipse sorry for over posting.

It's ok constructive feedback is helpfull for everyone reading this, the hope of this guide is to revive the GF class. mod 4 rework should be intresting indeed though

masterjewstar

epclipseingmoon wrote: »

It's ok constructive feedback is helpfull for everyone reading this, the hope of this guide is to revive the GF class. mod 4 rework should be intresting indeed though

That's what i thought it was about, I am excited about the reworking as well i hope they get it right. I didn't want to get in the way of this thats why i apologized.

and it sounds like you know your stuff as well and I hope people take it into account later on.

I added the build i use as a modifier to your build thread so others can see another spectrum of tank which is useful.

thynael21

masterjewstar wrote: »

its outlined in all their powers that they are a tank

This is an interpretation of yours.

masterjewstar wrote: »

common sense says its a tank

That's still no verification. Moreover common sense is apparently not always "the way to go". But also just a classification of a logic of multiple Individuals. Whereever that idea/logic/thought might came from. In other words: Many minds can still be wrong (and i don't exclude me from that!).

masterjewstar wrote: »

Play wise they are completely different.

I think a sentinelgwf with the right features will be capable of the same. Their skills are indeed not the same(, tho they got several to generate aggro). But the ways how to play them can be...



I should mention this again: I really think this guide is a good guide exspecially for new GF's and no overpowered Partys. And i'm looking forward to a rework on the GF too!

masterjewstar

mmm im not gonna argue with you as it will derail the thread and its a waste of time.

onodrain

One other very important question. Is threat generation based on raw damage or actual modified damage to the mob?

If raw damage, then you do not need Armor Penetration to be an effective GF. If modified damage, then you need to stack Armor Penetration to 24% so you can keep agro on boss mobs.

masterjewstar

Its based upon damage number of hits plus threat modifiers of all hits feats and powers of which GF has many. I dont know this for a fact its just what i noticed.

so enhanced mark allows a higher percentage of your damage and hits as threat.
Iron warrior also can increase threat for all powers within its duration i believe by 150%.
several others can too.

My arpen is 0 and i have little trouble in threat so i dont really know about that.

onodrain

I understand the modifiers, but if threat is based on actual damage to the mob (damage minus mob's mitigation) rather than your raw damage (damage prior to mob's mitigation) then you are gimping yourself on the powerful mobs if you do not stack ArPen to 24%.

That would account for not being able to hold agro on the boss mobs in dungeons.

Also GF gets ArPen from Dex. So every point over 10 in Dex is equal to 1% ArPen. So subtract that number from 24% to see how much ArPen you might need...provided it is our modified damage that impacts threat.

masterjewstar

well my tanks job, (full tank) is not to hurt them but to hold them on me and let others kill it in relative safety which it does pretty well even when "Gimped". I'm sorry I dont have a definite answer i can only tell you what i noticed over the last year.

onodrain

masterjewstar wrote: »

well my tanks job, (full tank) is not to hurt them but to hold them on me and let others kill it in relative safety which it does pretty well even when "Gimped". I'm sorry I dont have a definite answer i can only tell you what i noticed over the last year.

And I thank you for your responses. I am not meaning anything in a negative way, just wanting to move the conversation forward. That there is not a clear understanding of how threat works in this game is a reason people are frustrated with the class. The little nuances of how things work are very important to functioning properly. Whether threat is based on raw damage or actual damage is an important consideration.

masterjewstar

you are right and you are asking the correct questions problem is; is that there is no clear-cut answer, at least none that I have seen.

epclipseingmoon

Ono if raw damage was the only threat generating mechanic then GF's would never be able to get threat, we need our marks while other classes don’t need that but other classes cannot control all agro like a GF. From what I gather threat gen seems to work after time for us so maybe our damage stacks on their threat meter or something odd like that. Basically the higher your dps the easier it is to get all agro with less effort. but truth is even I don't know how they set up threat gen in this game, its basically all theory’s. seems tanking did get easier when I started using a flaming enchant which could mean threat is built on a scale regardless of dps and the mark multiplies the minor after burn damage to override its current target?

Would be nice to actually be told these mechanics by the devs or we could be guessing all day...

onodrain

Yeah, I realize there is no way to parse threat, so we cannot tell if it is based on raw or modified damage. My gut would be it is based on modified damage. The devs went out of their way to give the GF armor penetration with dex. GF, GWF and HR are the only classes with ability scores that impact resistance ignored. The TR, CW and DC do not have ability scores with this impact.

It would be nice to get clarification from a dev, as this is not something you can test and it is something paramount to a class functioning properly.

grimah

with some offensive stats (being a conqueror) all you need is enforced threat which is a hard taunt(taunts for around 4-5 seconds which is a guess). and a bit of stabbing from shield (100% more threat) here and there,

You will most likely have either a GWF or CW in your party, or both. meaning you dont need to use your enforced threat when they are proned/sucked up/stunned. I have no

VS bosses in single target, just whack on knights challenge and hope it doesnt bug out, its viable to use it on most of them.

I only slot in enhanced mark, if i need to do kiting.

dynamaxus

As this game is based on Cryptic's engine, it's likely that threat/taunt mechanics share some basic principles with their other creations.


Here are two links on how threat (aggro) and taunt (hard taunt, used by tanks) worked, including Class (AT) modifiers and damage/debuffs.


http://cityofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Taunt

http://cityofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Threat

caexar

An interesting approach Amber. Valid for sure but I honestly envision this style of tanking to be more running for dear life when guard is broken after realizing you have more threat than you can handle.
I'm not saying you can't make it work somehow but I've seen this style and it can get ugly.

Also don't recommend using KV? Really? It's hands down one of the best skills a GF has when used properly. You do know it generates threat based off of damage soaked right?