Which debuffs more, Thaumaturge's CoI or double RoE?

ianthewizard2012

Thaumaturge's CoI reduces Mitigation by 15%. How about double RoE?

crazymikee

Double RoE is roughly the same amount, but a little less. If you stack both of them together it's a pretty lethal damage bonus for a few seconds :P (both conduit and 2x RoE)

jayrad8

crazymikee wrote: »

Double RoE is roughly the same amount, but a little less. If you stack both of them together it's a pretty lethal damage bonus for a few seconds :P (both conduit and 2x RoE)

Is that true?

"Spell Mastery: Gains an additional charge, and if recast on the same target twice, will double the effectiveness of the debuffs"

I think at rank 3 RoE will mitigate 15%, so double casting boosts it to 30% and would be 2x the mitigation of CoI. (45% total for all)

hmdq

i guess is 7,5% + 7,5% on ROE twice charges.

crazymikee

Well the 3rd rank gives a total of 5% more mitigation and 20% more damage, and without knowing the actual base mitigation (My guess would be 2.5% aswell) So one cast is 7.5% mitigation at rank 3, and if that stacks then its 15%, added with CoI which is another 30%, your getting 30% mitigation from those two spells for their duration, but RoE double only lasts a few seconds on the stack so if your planning to get a massive 1 hit ko on nearly anyone, save your daily until you can get both of that on and then if your lucky one of them will proc Eye of the Storm, making your ice knife a crit. (I've hit in excess of 35k on other players post-mod3)

ianthewizard2012

Thanks all.

jonkoca

I've heard that the second roe doesn't debuff - bugged, but it may have been fixed.

angrymanagement

Just a bit more on the debuffs:
The following is based on target dummy, which should be the same as mobs assuming you are hit capped (and the ability uses arm pen).

Basics:
Elemental Empowerment = +10% effectiveness
COI = +15% effectiveness
ROE = +15% effectiveness
ROE x2 (Tab) = +30% effectiveness
High Vizer debuff x 3 = +30% effectiveness

Combinations:
COI + Elemental Empowerment = +26.5% effectiveness
ROE + Elemental Empowerment = +26.5% effectiveness
ROE + COI = +30% effectiveness
ROE + COI + Elemental Empowerment = +43% effectiveness
ROE x2 (Tab) + Elemental Empowerment = +43% effectiveness
ROE x2 (Tab) + COI = +45% effectivenss
COI + High Vizer x3 = +49.5% effectiveness
ROE + High Vizer x3 = +49.5% effectiveness
ROE x2 (Tab) + COI + Elemental Empowerment = +59.5% effectiveness
COI + High Vizer x3 + Elemental Empowerment = +61% effectiveness
ROE + High Vizor x3 + Elemental Empowerment = +61% effectiveness
ROE x2 (Tab) + High Vizer x3 = +69% effectiveness
ROE + COI + High Vizer debuff x3 = +69% effectiveness
ROE x2 (Tab) + High Vizer debuff x3 + Elemental Empowerment debuff = +82% effectiveness
ROE x2 (Tab) + COI + High Vizer debuff x3 = +88.5% effectiveness
ROE x2 (Tab) + COI + High Vizer debuff x3 + Elemental Empowerment = +103% effectivness

crazymikee

angrymanagement wrote: »

Just a bit more on the debuffs:
The following is based on target dummy, which should be the same as mobs assuming you are hit capped (and the ability uses arm pen).

Basics:
Elemental Empowerment = +10% effectiveness
COI = +15% effectiveness
ROE = +15% effectiveness
ROE x2 (Tab) = +30% effectiveness
High Vizer debuff x 3 = +30% effectiveness

Combinations:
COI + Elemental Empowerment = +26.5% effectiveness
ROE + Elemental Empowerment = +26.5% effectiveness
ROE + COI = +30% effectiveness
ROE + COI + Elemental Empowerment = +43% effectiveness
ROE x2 (Tab) + Elemental Empowerment = +43% effectiveness
ROE x2 (Tab) + COI = +45% effectivenss
COI + High Vizer x3 = +49.5% effectiveness
ROE + High Vizer x3 = +49.5% effectiveness
ROE x2 (Tab) + COI + Elemental Empowerment = +59.5% effectiveness
COI + High Vizer x3 + Elemental Empowerment = +61% effectiveness
ROE + High Vizor x3 + Elemental Empowerment = +61% effectiveness
ROE x2 (Tab) + High Vizer x3 = +69% effectiveness
ROE + COI + High Vizer debuff x3 = +69% effectiveness
ROE x2 (Tab) + High Vizer debuff x3 + Elemental Empowerment debuff = +82% effectiveness
ROE x2 (Tab) + COI + High Vizer debuff x3 = +88.5% effectiveness
ROE x2 (Tab) + COI + High Vizer debuff x3 + Elemental Empowerment = +103% effectivness

i dont think double roe gives 30%, and elemental empowerment doesnt mitigate is reduces their actual defense stat, which is a smaller difference then actually mitigation 10% of their dr

angrymanagement

crazymikee wrote: »

i dont think double roe gives 30%, and elemental empowerment doesnt mitigate is reduces their actual defense stat, which is a smaller difference then actually mitigation 10% of their dr

Test it out

P.S. This wasn't guess work or theorycrafting.

Also, I'll add, the only reason COI is preferred to ROE for PVE is because it is AOE dmg/debuff & it adds chill stacks when tabbed. As such the only time ROE comes onto my power bar for PVE is for VT, MC, and sometimes for Drako when the group has more dps than needed for adds. At those times COI gets moved from Tab to a regular button.

namelesstwo

i dont think double roe gives 30%, and elemental empowerment doesnt mitigate is reduces their actual defense stat, which is a smaller difference then actually mitigation 10% of their dr

He said it was against a training dummy yaka mobs. Mobs don't have a defense stat (only players do), anything vs. a mobs subtracts from their mitigation, there nothing else for it to subtract from. You can see in this post a dev confirm that mobs don't have an actual defense stat to speak of.

aakrasiaa

By "Abbadon523" at laggygamerz (found via google):

Ray of Enfeeblement

Description: A single target spell that does good damage and causes the target to take additional 10/12.5/15% damage (depending on rank) from all other sources and decreases their damage by the same percentage.

Mechanics:* This is actually a damage over time spell.* One sixth of the tooltip damage (multiplied by the debuff) is applied six times over five seconds.* It is impossible to cast this spell without the debuff so the damage you inflict will always be higher than the tooltip by the debuff percentage.* The mitigation debuff lasts for about four seconds.* It lasts longer if you have stacks of arcane mastery.
*
How it Changes When Placed in the Tab Slot:* When placed in the tab slot you gain an extra charge allowing you to cast the spell twice.* This doubles the debuff but does NOT double the damge applied.* If both charges are used the tooltip cooldown time will only restore one charge.* It will have to go through a second cooldown to restore the second charge.

Maximum Targets: 1
*
How the Tooltip is Calculated:*

C1*(1+(Int-10)/100)*((1+WD*.00846)*(0.9+rank/10)+(Cp*power))

where

C1 = 284.019
Cp = 0.000337843

The Actual Damage You Will get:
Tooltip*(1+(0.075+rank*0.025))

How Does the Ability Scale with Power?
*
It depends on the Intelligence of your character.* At 24 Intelligence 100 power adds 12.58 damage.
*
Something You May Not Know:* You should never, ever, ever place Ray of Enfeeblement on tab.* It actually hurts your overall damage.* For example, if you place it on tab then cast the spell once, the enemy will be debuffed and your damage will begin to apply.* Say two out of six ticks of damage are applied when you cast Ray of Enfeeblement a second time.* The debuff will double (to 30% on rank 3) but you will only get six more ticks of damage for a total of eight.* You lose the last four ticks of damage from the first casting.* The damage does not stack.* The second cast ends the damage from the first.* Once you have cast both rays then you will either have to spend twice as long recharging the ability so you can repeat the above process, or you just cast it every time it recharges once...which is no different than not having it tabbed in the first place.* It's a waste of your tab slot.

If you do not have the ability tabbed then you get a debuff that is half as strong, but is up for twice as long so it's a wash.* But by not having the ability on tab you can be sure to get all 12 ticks of damage from casting the ability twice whereas you may lose those ticks of damage when it is on tab.

I don't know Abbadon, but after the work done on that post...well...I believe Abbadon knows what Abbadon is talking about. I've never done any testing myself, so I'm of no use. Will be checking to see if anyone posts results, though!

silverquick

Well there's a point you guys are missing with regards to Ray of Enfeeblement and why it gets used in Single Target damage setups, its not necessarily the Debuff, although its nice, its also not necessarily the damage, although in a single target setup we have few options damage wise.

What this spell is really good for is AP generation. Its one of those that builds AP very fast. So when you're running a single target setup on a Boss Mob, even though your Sudden Storm is much better damage, running RoE will gain action points faster than most of your other options, allowing for more Ice Knife hits.

So in a practical sense this is one of its major redeeming values.

theosymphany

A lot of misunderstanding abounds. Angrymanagement's data holds true on target dummies.
As to why the number are what they are the debuffs come from two different types which I call defense debuff and booster debuff:

Defense debuff multipliers:
HV debuff up to 10% per stack
Elemental Empowerment 10%

Booster debuff multipliers:
RoE 15% per ray
CoI 15% in AoE

Multipliers of each type are additive with themselves but multiplicative with each other.

Therefore, 1 stack RoE and CoI is 1.3x damage
HV and EE stack to 1.4x damage

3xHV and CoI is 1.3*1.15 =1.495
All 4 together is 1.30*1.40 = 1.82x. This is consistent with all the data generated by angrymanagement.

Defense debuff multipliers have 2 further complications:
1. In PvP defense debuff multipliers reduce target defense and hence no longer multiply with debuff modifiers.
2. In PvE the magnitude of defense debuff multipliers are reduced by enemy damage resistance if you don't have enough resistance ignored.

I can also verify abbadon's tests are accurate.
In terms of AP gain both CoI and Icy Rays have superior AP gain per cast as well as sustained AP gain per sec compared to RoE, which isn't bad per se but not the best either.

As for the OP's questions, it depends whether you want to maximise overall damage or maximise debuff. Double RoE do stack, but you lose damage and the 30% debuff window is very short (~4s or so), and cooldown is delayed, so personally I'm with abbadon's opinion that RoE on tab is a waste. Extra chill stacks, potential AoE and increased damage of tabbed CoI on the other hand is a big bonus.

Further reading on debuff stacking and relation to resistance ignored:
http://laggygamerz.com/forum/index.php?/topic/382-kaelac%E2%80%99s-guide-to-damage-tenacity-reisistance-and-debuffs-in-neverwinter/?p=1649

aakrasiaa

theosymphany wrote: »

2. In PvE the magnitude of defense debuff multipliers are reduced by enemy damage resistance if you don't have enough resistance ignored.

A little clarification here, if you would be so kind to a lowly nub cw...

Your recent ArP results in the CW 2014 buglist thread shows that neither power benefits from the ArP effect, which I understood to be called RI. Is this a debuff RI, not related to ArP?

theosymphany

A good question and it is so confusing that I'm not sure if I'll actually do a good job explaining.

The damage gain from debuff effects of CoI and RoE, and for HV and EE in PvE settings are not related to the damage calculation from DR and RI. So it doesn't matter whether ArP works with those powers or not, you still get the debuff bonuses.

However, regardless of whether ArP works in damage calculation of a particular power, the magnitude of the EE debuff bonus is dependent on (1- defender DR %) * (1+ attacker RI % - defender DR %) and for HV debuff on (1+ attacker RI% - enemy DR %). This means without high RI %, you won't get the full 10% damage bonus per stack of HV, or 10% for EE. This reduction is up to 2.4% less for each HV stack and up to 4.2% less for EE.

I'll walk it through with an example
For example, say you have HV set, and have 10% RI, fighting a mob with 20% DR and you're damaging it with RoE (which RI doesn't work with) but is an Arcane power (applies Elemental Empowerment debuff) but RoE doesn't apply HV stacks.

Damage formula = base damage * sum of defense debuff multipliers (EE) * sum of booster debuff multipliers (RoE)* damage reduction from DR and RI which is (1+ attacker RI % (bugged) - defender DR %)

*Your base damage is increased by 3% from 1 arcane stack, but this won't show as a multiplier in the logs so I won't include it in the calculations.

Lets calculate bit by bit:

Magnitude of EE debuff:
EE debuff magnitude (%) = no. of stacks * base debuff magnitude * (1- defender DR %) * (1+ attacker RI % - defender DR %)
EE debuff mag (%) = 1 * 10% * (1-0.2) * (1+ 0.1 -0.2)
= 10% * 0.8 * 0.9
= 7.2%

Putting these back in main formula
Damage = base damage * (1+ 0.072 (EE)) *(1+0.15 (RoE)) * (1-0.2) no RI used because RoE is bugged
= base damage * 1.072*1.15*0.8
= base damage * 0.98624

Hope that clears things up. CW ability calculation are a minefield because of all the bugs/mechanics:
-Built in debuff reduction from EE and HV, which have different formulae
-A lot of abilities don't consider RI %
-HV set procs only with certain powers, and stacks fall off after daily power used
-Not all abilities correctly classified for buffs like Evocation, Wizard's Wrath and Focused Wizardry

crazymikee

theosymphany wrote: »

A lot of misunderstanding abounds. Angrymanagement's data holds true on target dummies.
As to why the number are what they are the debuffs come from two different types which I call defense debuff and booster debuff:

Defense debuff multipliers:
HV debuff up to 10% per stack
Elemental Empowerment 10%

Booster debuff multipliers:
RoE 15% per ray
CoI 15% in AoE

Multipliers of each type are additive with themselves but multiplicative with each other.

Therefore, 1 stack RoE and CoI is 1.3x damage
HV and EE stack to 1.4x damage

3xHV and CoI is 1.3*1.15 =1.495
All 4 together is 1.30*1.40 = 1.82x. This is consistent with all the data generated by angrymanagement.

Defense debuff multipliers have 2 further complications:
1. In PvP defense debuff multipliers reduce target defense and hence no longer multiply with debuff modifiers.
2. In PvE the magnitude of defense debuff multipliers are reduced by enemy damage resistance if you don't have enough resistance ignored.

I can also verify abbadon's tests are accurate.
In terms of AP gain both CoI and Icy Rays have superior AP gain per cast as well as sustained AP gain per sec compared to RoE, which isn't bad per se but not the best either.

As for the OP's questions, it depends whether you want to maximise overall damage or maximise debuff. Double RoE do stack, but you lose damage and the 30% debuff window is very short (~4s or so), and cooldown is delayed, so personally I'm with abbadon's opinion that RoE on tab is a waste. Extra chill stacks, potential AoE and increased damage of tabbed CoI on the other hand is a big bonus.

Further reading on debuff stacking and relation to resistance ignored:
http://laggygamerz.com/forum/index.php?/topic/382-kaelac%E2%80%99s-guide-to-damage-tenacity-reisistance-and-debuffs-in-neverwinter/?p=1649

How is only one RoE cast 15%? I thought it was 7.5% and then casted twice it becomes 15%

theosymphany

Angrymanagement already posted all the debuff values earlier in this thread. Double RoE is 30%.

kozi001

I always thought Coi is 15%, tabbed ROi is 2*10=20% mitigation.

angrymanagement

The below website provides links and information for easily viewing in game results via combat log parsing:
http://laggygamerz.com/forum/index.php?/topic/13-advanced-combat-tracker-neverwinter/

Makes wondering what is actually happening a thing of the past
Unfortunately, its hard to track info while playing (even with dual screens), so you have to dig through the results a bit to see a lot of the details.

aakrasiaa

theosymphany wrote: »

...
Hope that clears things up. CW ability calculation are a minefield because of all the bugs/mechanics:
-Built in debuff reduction from EE and HV, which have different formulae
-A lot of abilities don't consider RI %
-HV set procs only with certain powers, and stacks fall off after daily power used
-Not all abilities correctly classified for buffs like Evocation, Wizard's Wrath and Focused Wizardry

Thank you kindly for the information. As a Renegade, I have used CoI in single-target setups for the DoT alone (and to a lesser extent the AoE for trash), and have enjoyed how frequently it procs Nightmare Wizardry. Looks like it can proc on cast and ticks, but I could be wrong. I keep RoE around in those situations as well, begrudgingly (I hate that my ArP doesn't help, but I really don't know what else to equip) using them both as I dart around frantically trying not to get troll snot all over my fragile T1 set.