It seems a lot likelier than incredibly unlikely. Just yesterday, I dropped a lot of pages on one of my characters as a result of a series of wins. It seems highly unlikely that all the players in the pages between would have experienced ratings gains at the same time. Of course, this issue is hard to evaluate without actually being able to see the actual numeric ratings (which would be very nice), but on an anecdotal basis, it seems that practically everyone has at least some experience with this occurring.
Again, herein lies the issue. Dev's aren't seeing it in practice.
The leaderboard system might look great on paper, but I invite you to try it in reality.
TLDR: I am in the middle of page 6. Player_B is 1 position below me, and not doing pvp. I go into a match, win, and come out on page 9. Player_B is still on page 6.
The systems designer already explained.
What actually happened is, after you won, the 50 or so people from pages 6 thru 9 all happened to be PVPing at the very same time and just happened to all win more points than you. Your guildmate that was offline just happened to be that 'unlikely case' that the systems designer was talking about.
Why on earth would it be ranked by anything other than player ELO rating? That'd be like ranking chess players by the number of pawns they've captured.
I don't know but if you read this thread, and the multitude of others on the subject, people have convinced themselves that their individual score and kill/death ratio somehow effect their ranking. People misconception of how the ranking works is also apparent in their selfish play and time wasting cap swapping exercises.
Of course, this issue is hard to evaluate without actually being able to see the actual numeric ratings (which would be very nice),
^^^ THIS. All they would have to do is display the bleepity-bleep ELO rating instead of (or in addition to) that stupid little shield icon and everyone would see how they were affected. UI Epic Fail.
Could you kindly explain why even though I have higher Wins, More games played, positive K/D ratio I am being passed by other GF with far less?
There are pages upon pages of guys with far less statistically then I but are ahead of me!
Hi!
Happened to my with my GF too, we GFs are really cursed people:(
I was today in PVP Domination, where i had a perma as a team mate, he had only 1 kill and a few caps and a few assists, but he had the least of us five, because he didn't believe in the team and he was standing most of the time by campfire, but at the end, he was the first
This is also a nail in the coffin of the PVP ranking system for me!
Some classes seem to be favored now also statistically, what a holy...
Yes i can confirm my statement, about uneven PVP points and matchmaking, the GF has a final edge ( one advantage hurrah!) over my GWF, the GF gets lower points, than TRs, but better teams, while the GWF roar problem (which is don't use, i use knockdown) is solved by putting him in lower geared groups, where he finally gets a good decline in wins.:cool:
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
Happened to my with my GF too, we GFs are really cursed people:(
I was today in PVP Domination, where i had a perma as a team mate, he had only 1 kill and a few caps and a few assists, but he had the least of us five, because he didn't believe in the team and he was standing most of the time by campfire, but at the end, he was the first
This is also a nail in the coffin of the PVP ranking system for me!
Some classes seem to be favored now also statistically, what a holy...
Yes i can confirm my statement, about uneven PVP points and matchmaking, the GF has a final edge ( one advantage hurrah!) over my GWF, the GF gets lower points, than TRs, but better teams, while the GWF roar problem (which is don't use, i use knockdown) is solved by putting him in lower geared groups, where he finally gets a good decline in wins.:cool:
This brings nothing to the conversation, and is borderline unintelligible.
Thats stupid! It should be a formula based on your total involvement in the match! Assists, kills, etc...
So basically you're saying if someone plays 3 matches and wins all 3 and never plays again he will be unreachable by me!
Yep, sadly other games have this bad formula too, played some CoH matches too, the same thing.
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
This brings nothing to the conversation, and is borderline unintelligible.
I sense a semi or full perma player here or if you aren't one, than plz don't insult people, who you don't know! THX!
Do you play a GF, since when?
You know how matchmaking works, if yes, than plz share your wisdom with us!
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
The guy you point out in that screenshot has a slightly better win percentage than you. He has ~63% wins and you have ~58% wins. So he'll have a little better ELO rating and be higher up the leaderboard. Plus I think there are other factors involved (points won and/or defended etc.) which aren't listed on the main table. I honestly don't think that K/D affects your ranking at all, which makes sense as it has zero effect on winning a Domination match.
It's too confusing: what's actually shown (for comparative purpouse, I guess? No other, else) doesn't add up. So if it's just a "trust us, all WAI", well NOPE.
'sides k/d alone means nothing if not correlated to numbers of game played (and even there, you can afk after 2 kills 0 deaths? mmm see what I did there)
Everything that's not listed should'nt be held into account. Plenty of numbers there shown to diversify and order a ladder. No need to "secret_rng_perc_cost_var_X", really.
Win % should be based on game splayed too! If I have a 58% win but payed 1000 matches I should be ahead of someone with a 60% win whom played 50 matches!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
It's too confusing: what's actually shown (for comparative purpouse, I guess? No other, else) doesn't add up. So if it's just a "trust us, all WAI", well NOPE.
'sides k/d alone means nothing if not correlated to numbers of game played (and even there, you can afk after 2 kills 0 deaths? mmm see what I did there)
Everything that's not listed should'nt be held into account. Plenty of numbers there shown to diversify and order a ladder. No need to "secret_rng_perc_cost_var_X", really.
If you look at your individual 'score card' instead of the leaderboard you'll see s whole bunch of other stuff listed and a great big shiny number labelled 'total points' (or similar). this is right under the badge that gives you your current 'rank' so I'd guess that it has some relevance. Now, I haven't bothered to check (because frankly IDGAF about the scoreboard) but you should find some correlation between 'total points' and your position on the scoreboard. I'll take a look in game tonight as I have three toons I PvP with regularly and while all three have broadly similar headline ratings on the scoreboard they have widely different scoreboard ranks (two in the middle pages and one around the top 100 pages). I should be able to compare their 'total points' scores and see if they correlate to their leaderboard positions.
Win % should be based on game splayed too! If I have a 58% win but payed 1000 matches I should be ahead of someone with a 60% win whom played 50 matches!
Nope. Win % is win % regardless of matches played. Otherwise folk with no lives will always be unreachable by normal people.
Disagree, as a GF I don't get a plethora of kills either! But I can't heal, I cant taunt players, I cant do much of anything but be annoying to people.
Kills / Healing Done / Nodes Defended / Nodes Capped / Win Percentage / should all be applied to = ( Your Rating here )
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I'm going to say this now to put this part of the argument to rest: Gcrush has already stated that the math involved is proprietary. He is not at liberty to discuss this, and no amount of arguing or demanding or attempting to call him out is going to change that fact.
If this thread continues to consist of mainly arguments to get him to reveal that data, I'm not going to have any choice but to close this thread down.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
0
maroucatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Hey guys, I wanted to hop in and address some of the matchmaking questions that have been cropping up recently. I can't really get into the proprietary math we are using to *do* the matchmaking, but I will talk about a handful of the factors that surround how we do the matchmaking.
1. Why do matches sometimes seem so lopsided?
This is a hard question to answer, for several reasons. There are a lot of factors that determine match quality, and the system attempts to weigh all of them and give you the best possible match without waiting forever, which causes you to sometimes be placed in a suboptimal match rather than waiting indefinitely for a perfect match. We have several dials we can turn up and down to attempt to adjust matchmaking, but all of these things carry some degree of risk when we adjust them so we try to tune them little by litte. However we are watching matchmaking quality and are actively trying to weigh that against how long it takes to get and play a match.
2. Why do I sometimes drop on the leaderboard after winning a match?
This one is actually a matter of how frequently the leaderboard is updated. Our leaderboard UI cannot update constantly, so when you leave a match you see it update again. While it is theoretically possible in the math for your rating to go down when you win, it is *incredibly* unlikely. Most often what is really happening is that while you rise a bit from winning a match, other people have risen as well when you are in that match which makes it appear that you fell in the rankings.
3. Why don't you calculate for Gear Score when doing matchmaking?
We looked into it, but the data we have shows that Gear Score isn't a valid metric for matchmaking in our PvP. We have kept track of the average Gear Score of players at various matchmaking tiers and it turns out the difference between the top 10% players and the players in the 50th percentile is less than 2%. Also interestingly, the players with the highest numerical Gear Scores tend to fall close to the middle of the rankings. We have discussed doing some kind of adjustment for a player with no matchmaking history based on their Gear Score, but it would no longer matter after the first handful of matches that were played.
I hope this answers some of the questions surrounding PVP matchmaking.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Chris,
The problem with failing to account for GS is that a player may be a god among PvP'ers, but if you stick them in a game against all people with 20+% tenacity and 16k+ GS when they are still fresh on a character (8k-11k), they will be unable to kill anyone at all.
So, while some people with high GS may suck (I've seen it plenty), they only have to hit the poorly geared player a few times to win, whereas the poorly geared player must execute perfectly for over a minute to win. Even if this *balances out* wins among teams by making the perfect players fight stupid players that can 2 shot them, it's not really very fun.
Characters with less than 10% tenacity and 12k GS are dead weight in PvP right now. The team that wins is the team that has less of those people, if the teams are fairly equal in gear whoever got more GWF's/Permas win. Any of us that roll new characters are dead weights, until we PvP and grind dailies long enough to pull our own weight. I have 2 characters that aren't dead weight and 3 that are. I don't enjoy playing those 3 at all.
While you can allocate low GS players evenly among teams to give each "team" a fair chance at winning, not even that happens today; and even if that did happen, it's no fun for the players that are dead weight to play the game against people that can annihilate them in a rotation.
YOu say this is a rare example? THis has happened over and over and over to me when players are not playing.
YOu can see they are not playing because their wins/losses/kills/deaths stay the same. I made a thread about this and posted a YT link but it was removed.
I'm going to say this now to put this part of the argument to rest: Gcrush has already stated that the math involved is proprietary. He is not at liberty to discuss this, and no amount of arguing or demanding or attempting to call him out is going to change that fact.
If this thread continues to consist of mainly arguments to get him to reveal that data, I'm not going to have any choice but to close this thread down.
I am not asking him to reveal the data or "proprietary" formula used to make the gain/loss calculations.
My point I have been trying to state here, and elsewhere is this:
How the system has been described by Devs does not match what we are seeing in game. THEY need to play some games, I am sure they have accounts they can use or create, and see if HOW THEY DESIGNED THE SYSTEM TO ACT lines up with HOW THE SYSTEM IS ACTING IN PRACTICE.
It is fine to reiterate "this is how the system is designed" 'but the specifics behind it are proprietary.' But you better be dammed sure it is working how you intended it to work.
Because I don't think it is acting how you designed it to function. And since you wont give us the specifics so we can test it properly, either by telling us specifically how it is calculated OR by showing us the result at match-end (IE net ELO added or subtracted from the match) we can only give you anecdotal evidence of how we see it working in practice.
LASTLY, please stop stating that we are moving wildly down the leaderboard due to calculation lag/update delay. We are not dropping 2 pages because people below us are winning and we aren't winning as much ELO, so we are simply moving up but not as fast as others, resulting in us dropping on the leaderboard. THIS IS GROSSLY INCORRECT and stating such only displays that you are unaware of how the leaderboard is acting in practice.
Here is an irrefutable reason to prove why this excuse is false:
I am second from the top on page 8. My friend who is not online is on the top spot of page 8 (Friend_A). My friend who is online but not doing pvp (Friend_B) is 2 spots below me (4 spots from the top of page 8). I enter a match, win, and by win I mean my team won, and I took the top spot - scoring the most points in the match, and find myself on the middle of page 11. My Friend_A who was not online is still on the top of page 8, and my Friend_B that was online but wasn't pvping is now 3 spots from the top of page 8. Had other players been playing matches and winning, and gaining more ELO than myself, all of them (ALL THE PEOPLE FROM PAGES 8-11 between where I was before my match and where I ended up afterwards) would be ahead of Friend_B, but they aren't. He just shifted up 1 spot, as did the guy directly below me - to the spot I just vacated. This example alone proves that you can lose massive ELO for a win. 3 pages worth for being the top player in the match, and winning the round.
To state that I gained ELO, even just a small amount of ELO, for the win is blatantly false. To say that other people were playing and won more ELO during that time I was in the match and therefore moved up above where I was before, knocking me down spaces, is incorrect. Had I gained ANY ELO, or even stayed with the exact ELO I had before I entered the match, I would not have dropped below Friend_B, since his ELO was not changing as he wasn't doing any PVP.
So now that we have established that you LOSE ELO for winning a match, and being the highest scoring player, I ask you this: In a PVP rank system, should there be a situation in which once you enter a match - with no control over who you are going to play - despite being in a 5 man premade - or solo queue'd like I was in this instance - should there be a situation in which there is no possible way for anything to happen but lose ranking? Does that sound like a healthy PVP system to anyone? Knowing that you can come in first place, and win, but lose ranking. There should never be a no-win situation like this, and yet there is.
Again, not asking anything insane of the Devs, or Mods. I am not asking for anything proprietary. I would like, but don't absolutely need a system where you can see ELO won/lost at the end of a match based on whatever it is based on - for my own piece of mind, and so that we can give you hard evidence of how the system is working in practice. All I am asking is that you do some real world tests, in game, and make sure your system is working how you wanted it to work. Because from what I am seeing you say here, and what I am seeing in game, do not match up.
A Plea: Please take PVP seriously. I really enjoy this game, and I want to see it stay healthy. Many, many people play MMOs specifically for the PVP, and when that gameplay is undermaintained or too little attention given to it, PVP communities leave. Just look at the last MMO I played and loved, SWTOR. When that PVP patch that was suppose to add ranked PVP gameplay, and all sorts of PVP functionality failed to launch, and was delayed again, that game died. I know it is still around, but the PVP community left in one week. There were several hardcore PVP guilds, and every. Single. One of them left overnight.
I really don't want to see that happen to Neverwinter. Now I am not saying PVP communities are more important than PVE, the players are better, or need any special treatment. But they have a niche, a very important niche in MMOs. Neverwinter has 2 domination maps and only 1 gametype. Open world means nothing. Gauntylgrim means nothing. Neither count as real PVP. One is a game of 'who has more players here' and the other is a horse race with little ability to get a whole premade 20 man team (unless you are lucky). The PVP campaign added a lot (took a week to finish the Domination campaign) but the leaderboard is what is going to keep the PVP community active in a stale single gametype, dual map, environment. And we are seeing it firsthand doing things that defy logic. We are being told, "sorry we can't trust you enough to tell you how calculations are being made" and "despite what you say to the contrary, this is how it is designed to work."
The community is telling you it isn't working properly, or logically. Please don't hesitate to make fixes, which are required. If it takes until Mod4 to fix, much of the community wont be around to enjoy it.
Data should be revealed in my opinion, as a partly historian i can only come up with an example. Look at the Templar Knights in real history, well they have doomed their selves, because of their secrets.
We are the player community, we aren't any enemies to keep data hidden from us, let there be transparency, let everyone know why he is lower in the ranking, than the other guy.
This can be also very educational, if i know, what had to be done to be higher in the rankings, sure i would focus on it, but as long as i don't know, how someone, who just got 1 kill in a match and stood the entire game by campfire is ahead of me, of course it makes me think funny things.
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
[...] but the leaderboard is what is going to keep the PVP community active in a stale single gametype, dual map, environment. And we are seeing it firsthand doing things that defy logic. We are being told, "sorry we can't trust you enough to tell you how calculations are being made" and "despite what you say to the contrary, this is how it is designed to work."
Even if this is fixed (or actualy wai as told) the leaderboard is nowhere near being a realistic measurement of skill. And working through the developers comments, not only in this thread, there's little hope it ever will develop into one.
Competitive PVP needs a separate treatment and not the gimmicks that were introduced in Mod 3.
Competitive PVP needs a separate treatment and not the gimmicks that were introduced in Mod 3.
Yeah, I agree wholly. But before we start asking for anything new (Foundry made Domination maps), let's make sure what we already have is working properly.
You know what would be cool? If the Scoreboard could show classes... As a GF I know I will never get to the top pages but would be fantastic if I could at least compare myself to other GFS...
So have an option to sort by class.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
You know what would be cool? If the Scoreboard could show classes... As a GF I know I will never get to the top pages but would be fantastic if I could at least compare myself to other GFS...
So have an option to sort by class.
It displays the class icon, but you cant sort by it.
And a GF can get to the top pages, if you got a full group and queued together and won matches (and got lucky with gaining ELO).
There is nothing to stop you from doing it. Sure a GF is less in demand than a GWF, but that's not to say you cant be in a winning comp. Ive faced GWF/GF tag teams that just roll around together the whole match and run people over, it can be effective.
Yeah, I agree wholly. But before we start asking for anything new (Foundry made Domination maps), let's make sure what we already have is working properly.
I think Foundry made Domination maps could be the best and fastest solution now, community always acts faster, than companies do.
Of course, if the community made PVP map,s let's just simply leave out the current PVP leader board. Why not play just for fun? And when the current PVP system is fixed, than implement it or not.
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
It displays the class icon, but you cant sort by it.
And a GF can get to the top pages, if you got a full group and queued together and won matches (and got lucky with gaining ELO).
There is nothing to stop you from doing it. Sure a GF is less in demand than a GWF, but that's not to say you cant be in a winning comp. Ive faced GWF/GF tag teams that just roll around together the whole match and run people over, it can be effective.
Yea, Im not going to argue... But I think that is not going to happen unless a team decide to handicap themselves to doit!
Sorting through 62 pages to tally the other GFs is stupid! It should have a sort by class feature.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Yea, Im not going to argue... But I think that is not going to happen unless a team decide to handicap themselves to doit!
Sorting through 62 pages to tally the other GFs is stupid! It should have a sort by class feature.
agreed about the sort feature.
But I don't think teams are handicapping themselves as much as you think, unless you are really undergeared.
Get an HR to hold your home node, a perma tr to hold the enemy node, and you hold mid. Have a GWF and DC rotate from mid to home/enemy as needed. With a GWF/GF/DC on mid you will last long enough to hold it until players respawn. And with your prone abilities coupled with the GWFs, you two could kill a perma-proned DC or CW pretty easy, if you time it right.
And DCs have it just as rough as GFs when it comes to the leaderboard. Two of the best PVP DCs in the game aren't even in the top 80 pages.
we certainly appreciate the feedback, however as gentlemancrush stated, internal math/coding/formulas is proprietary and will never be provided to the general public. to argue against this point is like arguing against the terms of service or the forum rules of conduct. you are more than welcome to provide PWE with your opinions on this matter by submitting a ticket or by sending them an email at customerservice@perfectworld.com.
Comments
Again, herein lies the issue. Dev's aren't seeing it in practice.
The leaderboard system might look great on paper, but I invite you to try it in reality.
The systems designer already explained.
What actually happened is, after you won, the 50 or so people from pages 6 thru 9 all happened to be PVPing at the very same time and just happened to all win more points than you. Your guildmate that was offline just happened to be that 'unlikely case' that the systems designer was talking about.
Proprietary as intended.
I don't know but if you read this thread, and the multitude of others on the subject, people have convinced themselves that their individual score and kill/death ratio somehow effect their ranking. People misconception of how the ranking works is also apparent in their selfish play and time wasting cap swapping exercises.
^^^ THIS. All they would have to do is display the bleepity-bleep ELO rating instead of (or in addition to) that stupid little shield icon and everyone would see how they were affected. UI Epic Fail.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
Hi!
Happened to my with my GF too, we GFs are really cursed people:(
I was today in PVP Domination, where i had a perma as a team mate, he had only 1 kill and a few caps and a few assists, but he had the least of us five, because he didn't believe in the team and he was standing most of the time by campfire, but at the end, he was the first
This is also a nail in the coffin of the PVP ranking system for me!
Some classes seem to be favored now also statistically, what a holy...
Yes i can confirm my statement, about uneven PVP points and matchmaking, the GF has a final edge ( one advantage hurrah!) over my GWF, the GF gets lower points, than TRs, but better teams, while the GWF roar problem (which is don't use, i use knockdown) is solved by putting him in lower geared groups, where he finally gets a good decline in wins.:cool:
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
This brings nothing to the conversation, and is borderline unintelligible.
So basically you're saying if someone plays 3 matches and wins all 3 and never plays again he will be unreachable by me!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Yep, sadly other games have this bad formula too, played some CoH matches too, the same thing.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
I sense a semi or full perma player here or if you aren't one, than plz don't insult people, who you don't know! THX!
Do you play a GF, since when?
You know how matchmaking works, if yes, than plz share your wisdom with us!
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
It's too confusing: what's actually shown (for comparative purpouse, I guess? No other, else) doesn't add up. So if it's just a "trust us, all WAI", well NOPE.
'sides k/d alone means nothing if not correlated to numbers of game played (and even there, you can afk after 2 kills 0 deaths? mmm see what I did there)
Everything that's not listed should'nt be held into account. Plenty of numbers there shown to diversify and order a ladder. No need to "secret_rng_perc_cost_var_X", really.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Kills / Healing Done / Nodes Defended / Nodes Capped / Win Percentage / should all be applied to = ( Your Rating here )
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
If this thread continues to consist of mainly arguments to get him to reveal that data, I'm not going to have any choice but to close this thread down.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Chris,
The problem with failing to account for GS is that a player may be a god among PvP'ers, but if you stick them in a game against all people with 20+% tenacity and 16k+ GS when they are still fresh on a character (8k-11k), they will be unable to kill anyone at all.
So, while some people with high GS may suck (I've seen it plenty), they only have to hit the poorly geared player a few times to win, whereas the poorly geared player must execute perfectly for over a minute to win. Even if this *balances out* wins among teams by making the perfect players fight stupid players that can 2 shot them, it's not really very fun.
Characters with less than 10% tenacity and 12k GS are dead weight in PvP right now. The team that wins is the team that has less of those people, if the teams are fairly equal in gear whoever got more GWF's/Permas win. Any of us that roll new characters are dead weights, until we PvP and grind dailies long enough to pull our own weight. I have 2 characters that aren't dead weight and 3 that are. I don't enjoy playing those 3 at all.
While you can allocate low GS players evenly among teams to give each "team" a fair chance at winning, not even that happens today; and even if that did happen, it's no fun for the players that are dead weight to play the game against people that can annihilate them in a rotation.
YOu say this is a rare example? THis has happened over and over and over to me when players are not playing.
YOu can see they are not playing because their wins/losses/kills/deaths stay the same. I made a thread about this and posted a YT link but it was removed.
I am not asking him to reveal the data or "proprietary" formula used to make the gain/loss calculations.
My point I have been trying to state here, and elsewhere is this:
How the system has been described by Devs does not match what we are seeing in game. THEY need to play some games, I am sure they have accounts they can use or create, and see if HOW THEY DESIGNED THE SYSTEM TO ACT lines up with HOW THE SYSTEM IS ACTING IN PRACTICE.
It is fine to reiterate "this is how the system is designed" 'but the specifics behind it are proprietary.' But you better be dammed sure it is working how you intended it to work.
Because I don't think it is acting how you designed it to function. And since you wont give us the specifics so we can test it properly, either by telling us specifically how it is calculated OR by showing us the result at match-end (IE net ELO added or subtracted from the match) we can only give you anecdotal evidence of how we see it working in practice.
LASTLY, please stop stating that we are moving wildly down the leaderboard due to calculation lag/update delay. We are not dropping 2 pages because people below us are winning and we aren't winning as much ELO, so we are simply moving up but not as fast as others, resulting in us dropping on the leaderboard. THIS IS GROSSLY INCORRECT and stating such only displays that you are unaware of how the leaderboard is acting in practice.
Here is an irrefutable reason to prove why this excuse is false:
I am second from the top on page 8. My friend who is not online is on the top spot of page 8 (Friend_A). My friend who is online but not doing pvp (Friend_B) is 2 spots below me (4 spots from the top of page 8). I enter a match, win, and by win I mean my team won, and I took the top spot - scoring the most points in the match, and find myself on the middle of page 11. My Friend_A who was not online is still on the top of page 8, and my Friend_B that was online but wasn't pvping is now 3 spots from the top of page 8. Had other players been playing matches and winning, and gaining more ELO than myself, all of them (ALL THE PEOPLE FROM PAGES 8-11 between where I was before my match and where I ended up afterwards) would be ahead of Friend_B, but they aren't. He just shifted up 1 spot, as did the guy directly below me - to the spot I just vacated. This example alone proves that you can lose massive ELO for a win. 3 pages worth for being the top player in the match, and winning the round.
To state that I gained ELO, even just a small amount of ELO, for the win is blatantly false. To say that other people were playing and won more ELO during that time I was in the match and therefore moved up above where I was before, knocking me down spaces, is incorrect. Had I gained ANY ELO, or even stayed with the exact ELO I had before I entered the match, I would not have dropped below Friend_B, since his ELO was not changing as he wasn't doing any PVP.
So now that we have established that you LOSE ELO for winning a match, and being the highest scoring player, I ask you this: In a PVP rank system, should there be a situation in which once you enter a match - with no control over who you are going to play - despite being in a 5 man premade - or solo queue'd like I was in this instance - should there be a situation in which there is no possible way for anything to happen but lose ranking? Does that sound like a healthy PVP system to anyone? Knowing that you can come in first place, and win, but lose ranking. There should never be a no-win situation like this, and yet there is.
Again, not asking anything insane of the Devs, or Mods. I am not asking for anything proprietary. I would like, but don't absolutely need a system where you can see ELO won/lost at the end of a match based on whatever it is based on - for my own piece of mind, and so that we can give you hard evidence of how the system is working in practice. All I am asking is that you do some real world tests, in game, and make sure your system is working how you wanted it to work. Because from what I am seeing you say here, and what I am seeing in game, do not match up.
A Plea: Please take PVP seriously. I really enjoy this game, and I want to see it stay healthy. Many, many people play MMOs specifically for the PVP, and when that gameplay is undermaintained or too little attention given to it, PVP communities leave. Just look at the last MMO I played and loved, SWTOR. When that PVP patch that was suppose to add ranked PVP gameplay, and all sorts of PVP functionality failed to launch, and was delayed again, that game died. I know it is still around, but the PVP community left in one week. There were several hardcore PVP guilds, and every. Single. One of them left overnight.
I really don't want to see that happen to Neverwinter. Now I am not saying PVP communities are more important than PVE, the players are better, or need any special treatment. But they have a niche, a very important niche in MMOs. Neverwinter has 2 domination maps and only 1 gametype. Open world means nothing. Gauntylgrim means nothing. Neither count as real PVP. One is a game of 'who has more players here' and the other is a horse race with little ability to get a whole premade 20 man team (unless you are lucky). The PVP campaign added a lot (took a week to finish the Domination campaign) but the leaderboard is what is going to keep the PVP community active in a stale single gametype, dual map, environment. And we are seeing it firsthand doing things that defy logic. We are being told, "sorry we can't trust you enough to tell you how calculations are being made" and "despite what you say to the contrary, this is how it is designed to work."
The community is telling you it isn't working properly, or logically. Please don't hesitate to make fixes, which are required. If it takes until Mod4 to fix, much of the community wont be around to enjoy it.
We are the player community, we aren't any enemies to keep data hidden from us, let there be transparency, let everyone know why he is lower in the ranking, than the other guy.
This can be also very educational, if i know, what had to be done to be higher in the rankings, sure i would focus on it, but as long as i don't know, how someone, who just got 1 kill in a match and stood the entire game by campfire is ahead of me, of course it makes me think funny things.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
Even if this is fixed (or actualy wai as told) the leaderboard is nowhere near being a realistic measurement of skill. And working through the developers comments, not only in this thread, there's little hope it ever will develop into one.
Competitive PVP needs a separate treatment and not the gimmicks that were introduced in Mod 3.
Yeah, I agree wholly. But before we start asking for anything new (Foundry made Domination maps), let's make sure what we already have is working properly.
So have an option to sort by class.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
It displays the class icon, but you cant sort by it.
And a GF can get to the top pages, if you got a full group and queued together and won matches (and got lucky with gaining ELO).
There is nothing to stop you from doing it. Sure a GF is less in demand than a GWF, but that's not to say you cant be in a winning comp. Ive faced GWF/GF tag teams that just roll around together the whole match and run people over, it can be effective.
I think Foundry made Domination maps could be the best and fastest solution now, community always acts faster, than companies do.
Of course, if the community made PVP map,s let's just simply leave out the current PVP leader board. Why not play just for fun? And when the current PVP system is fixed, than implement it or not.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
Yea, Im not going to argue... But I think that is not going to happen unless a team decide to handicap themselves to doit!
Sorting through 62 pages to tally the other GFs is stupid! It should have a sort by class feature.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
agreed about the sort feature.
But I don't think teams are handicapping themselves as much as you think, unless you are really undergeared.
Get an HR to hold your home node, a perma tr to hold the enemy node, and you hold mid. Have a GWF and DC rotate from mid to home/enemy as needed. With a GWF/GF/DC on mid you will last long enough to hold it until players respawn. And with your prone abilities coupled with the GWFs, you two could kill a perma-proned DC or CW pretty easy, if you time it right.
And DCs have it just as rough as GFs when it comes to the leaderboard. Two of the best PVP DCs in the game aren't even in the top 80 pages.
this discussion is closed.