(if you re-read this thread) All control wizard abilities that involve control, but dont involve prones, are also severely affected as well, and more noticeably then repel because they are used more often. for example, Guardian fighters and great weapon fighters both have more control then a control wizard because the reduction of prone time is much smaller then that of other control powers, and they only use prones, while control wizard only have regular ccs, then the problem arises of control wizards having naturally low defence, and without the ability to control their targets they are always at a disadvantage. *pvping*
We are actively looking into the effectiveness of Prones in PVP and their impact on the relative power of the various classes to control their foes. We are investigating these effects and may have to try a variety of fixes to get them working in a way we are ultimately happy with.
We are actively looking into the effectiveness of Prones in PVP and their impact on the relative power of the various classes to control their foes. We are investigating these effects and may have to try a variety of fixes to get them working in a way we are ultimately happy with.
Right on, gotta be vigilant to prevent the leaderboard being flooded with GFs, after all!
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
We are actively looking into the effectiveness of Prones in PVP and their impact on the relative power of the various classes to control their foes. We are investigating these effects and may have to try a variety of fixes to get them working in a way we are ultimately happy with.
Thanks, Crush. It's good to know that you're attentive to this issue. CWs are in a tough spot right now in regard to PVP.
I took a look into this and it looks like the push part of the power could be deflected, causing the intensity of the push to drop so low that it was not noticeable. I have corrected that although I don't know when that will go live.
Additionally I made a QoL change to the spell mastery version that will cause it to ignore targets who are immune to the repelling effect. This will cause it to not attempt to affect those targets, but will mean in situations where you have many targets you will push as many targets as possible. This means it cannot be used in the Spell Mastery slot to deal damage to control immune targets, but I feel this is an acceptable trade off currently. These changes should hit preview sometime soon.
I'm not sure I am overly happy with that change to Spell Mastery.
In Spellplague for example, I run Repel on Mastery primarily to deal damage to the boss, while it is surfaced and adjust my aim to not hit immunes anyway
I agree with this. I use repel to do boss damage all the time if I had it slotted for pushing situations. Just going to throw it out there that I don't agree with ignoring targets.
I took a look into this and it looks like the push part of the power could be deflected, causing the intensity of the push to drop so low that it was not noticeable. I have corrected that although I don't know when that will go live.
Additionally I made a QoL change to the spell mastery version that will cause it to ignore targets who are immune to the repelling effect. This will cause it to not attempt to affect those targets, but will mean in situations where you have many targets you will push as many targets as possible. This means it cannot be used in the Spell Mastery slot to deal damage to control immune targets, but I feel this is an acceptable trade off currently. These changes should hit preview sometime soon.
So does that mean the same thing is happening with GF knockback and that will be fixed as well? (Referring to Bull Charge only pushing people a few feet a lot of the time)
Always assumed it was tenacity that was causing this, glad to hear it's not! Fix that and it will help GFs be at least a little useful in PvP contesting.
If you fixed Repel, can you also please take a look on other CWs spells with a CC component as well?
Entangling Force, for example, is the most suffering of these encounters. It used to be a half-reliable CC opener even against halflings, but not any longer.
Just like with Repel, Entangling is affected by Deflect bugs too.
Kindly fix this too, thanks.
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
edited June 2014
I assumed this was tenacity WAI. Apparently not. In that case, can we add sunburst to the list of related fixes?
I cannot count the flurries and IBSes that I missed cause some "pro" CW repelled my targets lol.
So.
- if you cannot restrain your use of Repel and do it so it won't hinder your party, just don't slot it
- on Tab? that's for trolling in GG only, maybe. Don't.
- Repel getting resisted? Why do you think people roll halflings and get 20%+ Tenacity on them? Well, to help against CC is one of the reasons. Also cause halflings are cuuuuute Deflect also plays a (buggy) role. Wait for fixes? Why? Bugs reported AGES ago, nothing was done.
- wanna make repel work better? Use it off Tab, play a Renegade, use Magic Missile and Ray on Tab. This way you can have almost all time 5 Arcane Stacks. it will help Repel a lot.
So I'd say, either use it properly, either give it up for now.
As for Repel ignoring Tenacity, how about no? Tenacity has a purpose. CWs can still create distance even without Repel, even if it's difficult against GWFs for example, but that's because GWF is a broken class that should NOT have spammable gap closer.
I cannot count how many Sudden Storms and Shards i missed because of GWFs spamming FS and Roar in PVE :>
We are actively looking into the effectiveness of Prones in PVP and their impact on the relative power of the various classes to control their foes. We are investigating these effects and may have to try a variety of fixes to get them working in a way we are ultimately happy with.
I don't PVP, but when I prone mobs, they are generally back on their feet by the time I get to them and that is using threatening rush. Far different than when a mobs prone me and I'm laying on my back for, I don't know what? 3-5 Seconds?.
Gets a little annoying when all the pvp fixes seem to equal screw the PVE'ers.
As a young boy chasing Dragons with your wooden sword so mighty, You're St. George or you're David and you always killed the beast
Times change very quickly And you had to grow up early. A house in smoking ruins and the bodies at your feet ~Iron Maiden
I cannot count how many Sudden Storms and Shards i missed because of GWFs spamming FS and Roar in PVE :>
Although in GWFs/TRs/GFs defense, idk how many melee encounters ive missed because of icy storm and repel spamming in PVE as well :>
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
I don't PVP, but when I prone mobs, they are generally back on their feet by the time I get to them and that is using threatening rush. Far different than when a mobs prone me and I'm laying on my back for, I don't know what? 3-5 Seconds?.
Gets a little annoying when all the pvp fixes seem to equal screw the PVE'ers.
Perception plays tricks on you. Even in PvP it seems like the enemies are never prone long but when you are the one prone you notice it like a slow motion camera.
On top of that I believe any changes they would do would be increasing the effect of tenacity on prones; not simply reducing prone times. Assuming is bad.
We are actively looking into the effectiveness of Prones in PVP and their impact on the relative power of the various classes to control their foes. We are investigating these effects and may have to try a variety of fixes to get them working in a way we are ultimately happy with.
Reducing the duration of prones could actually bring GWFs in line a bit, after Roar is fixed as well. That way they could maintain their damage and tankiness but other classes would have more of a chance against them.
Only problem is what about GFs? They're already the worst class in PVP. If you make prones shorter, you should retain the current duration for GFs.
Reducing the duration of prones could actually bring GWFs in line a bit, after Roar is fixed as well. That way they could maintain their damage and tankiness but other classes would have more of a chance against them.
Only problem is what about GFs? They're already the worst class in PVP. If you make prones shorter, you should retain the current duration for GFs.
Yeah, this is terrible =\. don't screw GFs over any more =(
And if you're going to fix the CW knock back, fix the same issue with GF and DC, classes that are actually suffering from this bug.
Enemy Team
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
We are actively looking into the effectiveness of Prones in PVP and their impact on the relative power of the various classes to control their foes. We are investigating these effects and may have to try a variety of fixes to get them working in a way we are ultimately happy with.
Typical diplomatic speech.
Aka: hm, we will see.
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elthiruilMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
IMHO and I have done enough pvp to know, its not just the prones, if for example you have hr & gwf or tr and gwf working together they can effectively prone & cc any class till death, the gwf knocks down (every skill is crossed out) the tr can then smoke bomb (same deal) while gwf kills, or in the hr case the hr fires the entangle arrow (I don't know the exact skill) combined with the gwf beatdown to similar effect.
Now if you look at all the CW skills (which I DO play in pvp), almost all are affected by tenacity and not only that when certain class activate their cc immunities they break free.
So essentially the end result is that you have classes controlling better than actual 'control' wizards to the point where using control powers for a CW is mostly a joke.
There are so many problems for pvp at this point, one possible solution would be to standardize the CC control across the board for powers, ie same time no matter what power/class, that way you will at least give the CC controlled target a chance to even move/break free, to not do this basically will continue with the status quo.
This will definitely not solve all the problems, obviously you still have perma-stealth and the godlike immune gwf, and obviously initially these things were never thought of, these class mods for pvp happened because they had to deal with the control power of CW's whose control power got nerfed into oblivion, but by standardizing the time allowed to be in a controlled state across all classes everyone would be on equal footing in terms of ability to do something to avoid pvp death.
Also I'd like to add as a final point that having PVE powers and PVP powers use the same methods of calculation for effect was never a good idea.
^ That really points out an issue. I don't understand why Tenacity would work like this. From what I can see, it works like a state which is directly against controllers.
Damage Resistance is okay because it's fair to everybody. Critical Strike Resistance is okay because it's fair to everybody, too. And Control Resistance? Not fair if you ask me. Control duration is an very important thing which controller relies on for survivability. Nerfing it can only affect controllers and doesn't really affect other classes.
Although that Control Resistance seems to also affect those overpowered melees' knock and prone, that doesn't hurt them a lot. They are just able to knock and prone you to death anyway.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
I personally don't find the endless CC chains fun. It's so much like wild west shoot outs.
First to draw. First to win.
My old favorite example was the TR vs the CW. If the CW controlled the TR before the TR used ITC the CW won. If the TR used ITC before the CW then the TR won. With tenacity this effect was reduced but nowhere near enough and overall was not equally effective.
Personally I feel in PvP Only that no power should grant CC immunity with two exceptions: Dodges and the GF Shield. All other CC immunities such as ITC and Unstoppable should give say a 50% chance to be immune and reduced CC effects when not immune.
Why have GF's shield grant CC Immunity? 1. They have to aim the shield. 2. The shield can break. 3. They don't do a lot of damage so don't remove the defense.
As for prones, I think all prones in PvP should behave like the dwarven racial ability causing them to have a chance but not a guarantee to knock down.
Finally somebody had an interesting idea posted a couple of weeks ago saying that being effected by a prone, stun or entangle (anything which prevents all actions) should grant temporary immunity or resistance to additional CC just so that teams can't chain CC targets endlessly. As a player who often plays an HR I see just how hard a "glass cannon" gets focus fired on by CC effects and I just do not have enough dodges to deal with them all and if I miss one dodge I am literally dead from the chains. It's not fun.
Sure these suggestions add in luck factors but I would rather rely on luck than know that once I get CC'd once there is no chance to survive. I'd rather have a fighting chance, or should I say chance to fight, in PvP rather than have entire matches and fights be determined by who can chain CC faster. People scream pay to win but that's not really true. I can buy gear all I want but that doesn't matter if I can't get off my rear end.
elthiruilMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
Glad I got people thinking about solutions rather than the problem, we all know what the problems are, solutions are much harder to find, and yeah chain CC'd to death is no fun for anyone (and CW's can do that too), in their defense in that respect however it takes quite good gear and quite a lot of DPS to manage - its mostly a race against time (I do enjoy it when I manage too pull it off especially against those classes who have high immunities - tr's and gwf's).
Hopefully at some time in the future pvp will be based on player skill...
Comments
We are actively looking into the effectiveness of Prones in PVP and their impact on the relative power of the various classes to control their foes. We are investigating these effects and may have to try a variety of fixes to get them working in a way we are ultimately happy with.
Right on, gotta be vigilant to prevent the leaderboard being flooded with GFs, after all!
Thanks, Crush. It's good to know that you're attentive to this issue. CWs are in a tough spot right now in regard to PVP.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
I agree with this. I use repel to do boss damage all the time if I had it slotted for pushing situations. Just going to throw it out there that I don't agree with ignoring targets.
So does that mean the same thing is happening with GF knockback and that will be fixed as well? (Referring to Bull Charge only pushing people a few feet a lot of the time)
Always assumed it was tenacity that was causing this, glad to hear it's not! Fix that and it will help GFs be at least a little useful in PvP contesting.
Entangling Force, for example, is the most suffering of these encounters. It used to be a half-reliable CC opener even against halflings, but not any longer.
Just like with Repel, Entangling is affected by Deflect bugs too.
Kindly fix this too, thanks.
Iyon the Dark
I cannot count how many Sudden Storms and Shards i missed because of GWFs spamming FS and Roar in PVE :>
I don't PVP, but when I prone mobs, they are generally back on their feet by the time I get to them and that is using threatening rush. Far different than when a mobs prone me and I'm laying on my back for, I don't know what? 3-5 Seconds?.
Gets a little annoying when all the pvp fixes seem to equal screw the PVE'ers.
Times change very quickly And you had to grow up early. A house in smoking ruins and the bodies at your feet ~Iron Maiden
Although in GWFs/TRs/GFs defense, idk how many melee encounters ive missed because of icy storm and repel spamming in PVE as well :>
Perception plays tricks on you. Even in PvP it seems like the enemies are never prone long but when you are the one prone you notice it like a slow motion camera.
On top of that I believe any changes they would do would be increasing the effect of tenacity on prones; not simply reducing prone times. Assuming is bad.
Reducing the duration of prones could actually bring GWFs in line a bit, after Roar is fixed as well. That way they could maintain their damage and tankiness but other classes would have more of a chance against them.
Only problem is what about GFs? They're already the worst class in PVP. If you make prones shorter, you should retain the current duration for GFs.
Yeah, this is terrible =\. don't screw GFs over any more =(
And if you're going to fix the CW knock back, fix the same issue with GF and DC, classes that are actually suffering from this bug.
I agree,
Every nerf has only caused more problems than it solved and created the shoes everyone is now in.
If they'd never have bothered in the first place, NONE of these things would be a problem now.
They quite frankly created their own mess with this endless, useless nerfing that never solved anything in the end.
Typical diplomatic speech.
Aka: hm, we will see.
Now if you look at all the CW skills (which I DO play in pvp), almost all are affected by tenacity and not only that when certain class activate their cc immunities they break free.
So essentially the end result is that you have classes controlling better than actual 'control' wizards to the point where using control powers for a CW is mostly a joke.
There are so many problems for pvp at this point, one possible solution would be to standardize the CC control across the board for powers, ie same time no matter what power/class, that way you will at least give the CC controlled target a chance to even move/break free, to not do this basically will continue with the status quo.
This will definitely not solve all the problems, obviously you still have perma-stealth and the godlike immune gwf, and obviously initially these things were never thought of, these class mods for pvp happened because they had to deal with the control power of CW's whose control power got nerfed into oblivion, but by standardizing the time allowed to be in a controlled state across all classes everyone would be on equal footing in terms of ability to do something to avoid pvp death.
Also I'd like to add as a final point that having PVE powers and PVP powers use the same methods of calculation for effect was never a good idea.
Damage Resistance is okay because it's fair to everybody. Critical Strike Resistance is okay because it's fair to everybody, too. And Control Resistance? Not fair if you ask me. Control duration is an very important thing which controller relies on for survivability. Nerfing it can only affect controllers and doesn't really affect other classes.
Although that Control Resistance seems to also affect those overpowered melees' knock and prone, that doesn't hurt them a lot. They are just able to knock and prone you to death anyway.
First to draw. First to win.
My old favorite example was the TR vs the CW. If the CW controlled the TR before the TR used ITC the CW won. If the TR used ITC before the CW then the TR won. With tenacity this effect was reduced but nowhere near enough and overall was not equally effective.
Personally I feel in PvP Only that no power should grant CC immunity with two exceptions: Dodges and the GF Shield. All other CC immunities such as ITC and Unstoppable should give say a 50% chance to be immune and reduced CC effects when not immune.
Why have GF's shield grant CC Immunity? 1. They have to aim the shield. 2. The shield can break. 3. They don't do a lot of damage so don't remove the defense.
As for prones, I think all prones in PvP should behave like the dwarven racial ability causing them to have a chance but not a guarantee to knock down.
Finally somebody had an interesting idea posted a couple of weeks ago saying that being effected by a prone, stun or entangle (anything which prevents all actions) should grant temporary immunity or resistance to additional CC just so that teams can't chain CC targets endlessly. As a player who often plays an HR I see just how hard a "glass cannon" gets focus fired on by CC effects and I just do not have enough dodges to deal with them all and if I miss one dodge I am literally dead from the chains. It's not fun.
Sure these suggestions add in luck factors but I would rather rely on luck than know that once I get CC'd once there is no chance to survive. I'd rather have a fighting chance, or should I say chance to fight, in PvP rather than have entire matches and fights be determined by who can chain CC faster. People scream pay to win but that's not really true. I can buy gear all I want but that doesn't matter if I can't get off my rear end.
Hopefully at some time in the future pvp will be based on player skill...