The point of this thread seems lost on me. It's a lot of people comparing PvP notes, but from where I'm sitting Split Shot doesn't seem like a terribly great tool to use in PvP...before or after the nerfs.
So if it's a PvE complaint, given that Split Shot is a ranged attack, lets presume you're an Archer or Nature using it for arguments sake.
1) PvE Archer Builds
If you're an Archer, you offset most of the nerf to Split Shot with Sniper's Aim. QED. Certainly it still does less damage, but it also does more damage than any other at-will I can think of other than Aimed Shot; and it is not coincidence that the other at-will most Archer's use is in fact Aimed Shot. (So both the hardest hitting at-will's in the game. Hmm.) It crits for around 10-12k per target, to a max of 5, just on crappy dummies. As an at-will. Without any setup. (So 50k damage every 2 seconds, if it crits with a crit rate of almost 50%.)
With any amount of debuff's on the target, Split Shot and Aimed Shot ramp up in damage just like any other ability used on debuffed targets. When was the last time your at-wills hit for 80k on a GWF or CW I wonder? And you can cast it 'at will' and can 'spam' it. You get twice as many encounters as a Ranger, that can be fired off more often than other classes, unless you didn't take Prime Critical and aren't wearing Royal Guard for some reason. (Which means you can often have multiple RoA or Thorn Wards out at one time.)
While CW's certainly can kill add's in one rotation, I hardly think comparing a dungeon designed for 8-9k GS being run by 16k characters is a valid comparison. Anything with that high of GS makes a mockery of old content. Anything at all. Throw a 16k GS Guardian Fighter at them. Watch them melt.
2) PvE Nature Builds
If you're Nature, you need to seriously reroll your character unless you travel in a low-powered new player premade or something. It's a terrible spec in all instances no matter what you pair it with. I'm not trying to insult players that chose Nature, I have played that spec as both Pathfinder and Stormwarden, and it just doesn't bring anything to the table that any halfway competent group needs. This means that you always, always, always need to be carried by the rest of your team if this is the spec you play. It does bad damage, does bad healing, gives bad resistance buffs, and played perfectly will still be #5 in all categories except maybe damage taken because nothing cares about you even when you shoot them in the face.
3) PvP Builds
Why are you using Split Shot in PvP in the first place? Are you just praying for an assist kill?
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Did anyone else find, pre-nerf, that you could get 100% damage from the split shot from only having it charged up just past 50%? Because it seems like now the damage output is "properly" based on how much it's charged up so you'll only get 100% (which is 75% of what it used to be) at full charge.
In any case, I was finding myself using split shot a lot less so I decided to switch from ranged to melee feats and powers. So far so good, I think i'm actually doing more damage soloing the icewind dailies because I can just lay down thorn ward & rain of arrows then stand in the middle and spam clear the ground until everything's dead around me. But I can't imagine this'll do much good in dungeons and I haven't tried it enough in pvp yet to see if it'll work better for me.
Anyone else switched from ranged to melee because of the SS nerf?
I switched in advance and planned for just that because clear the ground is getting a buff and stormwarden has two class features, blade storm and twin blade storm, that work very well with it. Works great and I'm better in groups than a split-shot spammer used to be. Also combat is just better for pvp, period. I'm trying to figure out what's better in a dungeon, use fox shift/step or split the sky on top of those two powers you mentioned.
I'm not underestimating anything. I have an alt GWF I'm just running through DR with poor gear and a less than optimal IV Destroyer build but IBS is doing crazy damage. I also just respecced my CW to MoF Thaum with Bilethorn and I'm eating up the mobs in IWD. The change to Power is really shaking up damage levels on certain specs/builds.
The thing is - I find it pretty darn easy to dodge the attacks from the average GWF on my HR. Whereas he isn't dodging TW+CA+PF any time soon. It's a hoot against Permas as well. And DCs - even the tanky ones. Doesn't work so well against another HR or a CW who knows what he's doing, but there are other tactics to use against these.
Just need to buy another respec in a week or so to tweak my build now. Good times ahead.
I just don't see how you're killing GWFs with DOTs and no CC. With plaguefire your crits aren't going to be doing as much as an HR with vorpal.
I guess if he NEVER hits you once it could work.
Also, I think bile might be better than plague fire if you're intent is to trigger careful attack, especially on rogues because it may refresh itself for full duration.
Why are you using Split Shot in PvP in the first place? Are you just praying for an assist kill?
Mainly split shot was great because charged it did comparable damage to aimed shot, and you couldn't interupt it. Not only that, but you could choose to hold the charge until the enemy stops dodging and then release (great on DCs and CWs and TRs). Plus of course it's AOE so you could hit multiple targets with it. Also it would follow rogues while charging even when they stealthed, although I'm not sure if it hit them after releasing.
Plus it's great for supportive dps on the middle node, which is probably what you were referring to.
All this is pretty much shot to hell with the nerf.
IMO pathfinder makes any calls for any nerf redaction totally mute. The qq shortbus of people saying PF is op is already a mile long and getting larger by the day. Don't expect split shot to be unnerfed to keep anachronistic builds still viable.
IMO pathfinder makes any calls for any nerf redaction totally mute. The qq shortbus of people saying PF is op is already a mile long and getting larger by the day. Don't expect split shot to be unnerfed to keep anachronistic builds still viable.
Eh, I see a few rogues upset that HRs who were already good at contesting nodes against them are a little better now.
God forbid they have competition on node contesting.
I just don't see how you're killing GWFs with DOTs and no CC. With plaguefire your crits aren't going to be doing as much as an HR with vorpal.
I guess if he NEVER hits you once it could work.
Also, I think bile might be better than plague fire if you're intent is to trigger careful attack, especially on rogues because it may refresh itself for full duration.
Don't ask me how it's working in detail - I don't parse so all I can report is what I'm experiencing in practice. And it works.
There seems to be something peculiarly synergistic between TW, CA, and PF. The total DPS appears to be greater than the sum of the parts. My burst is way below a vorpal user but my sustained damage is much higher.
I was playing around last night with mixing Boar's Rush into the rotation so the target can spend some time on his/her backside while TW hammers away. Seems to work OK.
I should point out that while this is super effective 1v1 it becomes exponentially less so as the number of opposition players increases. It's difficult to make work in the pitched battles at Mid for instance.
EDIT: You could be right about Bile but at the moment I can't afford one for testing.
Eh, I see a few rogues upset that HRs who were already good at contesting nodes against them are a little better now.
God forbid they have competition on node contesting.
Minus the handful of the best rogues in the game, node contesting is tilted way in favor of any hr at 15k and above (assuming some kind of rational pvp gearing and play), and that is even on non-pathfinder hrs. Pathfinder, forget it. The old vids of jerk(name removed) and nighw(name removed) would look much difference if that hr was todays pathfinder and that tr was todays perma.
Minus the handful of the best rogues in the game, node contesting is tilted way in favor of any hr at 15k and above (assuming some kind of rational pvp gearing and play), and that is even on non-pathfinder hrs. Pathfinder, forget it. The old vids of jerk(name removed) and nighw(name removed) would look much difference if that hr was todays pathfinder and that tr was todays perma.
HR's were always the anti-rogue imo. I never had too much trouble with them unless they overgeared me.
Aimed strike and plaguefire is just about as good as careful attack at getting a rogue out of stealth and that was always available. Plus HR's could get 3 second cooldown reductions from stormwind action and split shot was doing way more damage.
If an old stormwarden played the same as a pathfinder now using aimed-strike instead of careful attack, he would be at least as good at beating rogues.
The only thing that's changed is more HRs are using the DOT melee at will because basically it's the only good thing in Pathfinder. Stormwarden with the old split shot had a comparable DOT melee, but HRs didn't really need to use it because it had so much else going for it (better fox shift, better split shot and stormstep action).
Don't ask me how it's working in detail - I don't parse so all I can report is what I'm experiencing in practice. And it works.
There seems to be something peculiarly synergistic between TW, CA, and PF. The total DPS appears to be greater than the sum of the parts. My burst is way below a vorpal user but my sustained damage is much higher.
I was playing around last night with mixing Boar's Rush into the rotation so the target can spend some time on his/her backside while TW hammers away. Seems to work OK.
I should point out that while this is super effective 1v1 it becomes exponentially less so as the number of opposition players increases. It's difficult to make work in the pitched battles at Mid for instance.
EDIT: You could be right about Bile but at the moment I can't afford one for testing.
I'm back to using my HR and I agree it's effective. But I could always kill GWFs with thornward and boar's rush and fox shift, so it's nothing really new, it's just a different way to go about it, relying more on thornward/careful attack damage than fox shift burst.
I'm back to using my HR and I agree it's effective. But I could always kill GWFs with thornward and boar's rush and fox shift, so it's nothing really new, it's just a different way to go about it, relying more on thornward/careful attack damage than fox shift burst.
It's more effective now because Thorn Ward hits a lot harder and Careful Attack is additional damage on every hit of Thorn Ward and Plaguefire. Plus I add an Aimed Strike bleed in there for extra goodness. There is way more DOT damage in this combo than just using Thorn Ward with AS and PF.
It's more effective now because Thorn Ward hits a lot harder and Careful Attack is additional damage on every hit of Thorn Ward and Plaguefire. Plus I add an Aimed Strike bleed in there for extra goodness. There is way more DOT damage in this combo than just using Thorn Ward with AS and PF.
I can't argue with it being more DOT damage especially if you're using AS on top of it (500-1k every 1.5 seconds more to be exact), but overall I find it about as effective as before when I could just hit them 4 times with fox shift and a couple split shots and kill them way before thornward even had a chance to do much damage.
I think that's the main reason I wasn't using thornward much before unless it was vs. a rogue, besides the mysterious buff that seems to have occurred without being listed in the mod patch notes- I killed things faster, including GWFs, than it would be practical to use.
My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
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devilhunterzMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2014
I totally agree, I remember when I could 2 shot trash mobs with split shot ,but now... its a 3 shot and 1 shot IF I CRIT. (Full charge too)
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
I totally agree, I remember when I could 2 shot trash mobs with split shot ,but now... its a 3 shot and 1 shot IF I CRIT. (Full charge too)
Meh, haven't been using SS for a few days now and it hasn't hurt me much. I can pump just as much damage out with marauder's rush, rain of arrows, fox shift, clear the ground/rapid strike combo. Then again, most people don't have 2k+ defense/1.5k Regen & life steal to able to safely play like a mouth foaming lunatic.
Comments
So if it's a PvE complaint, given that Split Shot is a ranged attack, lets presume you're an Archer or Nature using it for arguments sake.
1) PvE Archer Builds
If you're an Archer, you offset most of the nerf to Split Shot with Sniper's Aim. QED. Certainly it still does less damage, but it also does more damage than any other at-will I can think of other than Aimed Shot; and it is not coincidence that the other at-will most Archer's use is in fact Aimed Shot. (So both the hardest hitting at-will's in the game. Hmm.) It crits for around 10-12k per target, to a max of 5, just on crappy dummies. As an at-will. Without any setup. (So 50k damage every 2 seconds, if it crits with a crit rate of almost 50%.)
With any amount of debuff's on the target, Split Shot and Aimed Shot ramp up in damage just like any other ability used on debuffed targets. When was the last time your at-wills hit for 80k on a GWF or CW I wonder? And you can cast it 'at will' and can 'spam' it. You get twice as many encounters as a Ranger, that can be fired off more often than other classes, unless you didn't take Prime Critical and aren't wearing Royal Guard for some reason. (Which means you can often have multiple RoA or Thorn Wards out at one time.)
While CW's certainly can kill add's in one rotation, I hardly think comparing a dungeon designed for 8-9k GS being run by 16k characters is a valid comparison. Anything with that high of GS makes a mockery of old content. Anything at all. Throw a 16k GS Guardian Fighter at them. Watch them melt.
2) PvE Nature Builds
If you're Nature, you need to seriously reroll your character unless you travel in a low-powered new player premade or something. It's a terrible spec in all instances no matter what you pair it with. I'm not trying to insult players that chose Nature, I have played that spec as both Pathfinder and Stormwarden, and it just doesn't bring anything to the table that any halfway competent group needs. This means that you always, always, always need to be carried by the rest of your team if this is the spec you play. It does bad damage, does bad healing, gives bad resistance buffs, and played perfectly will still be #5 in all categories except maybe damage taken because nothing cares about you even when you shoot them in the face.
3) PvP Builds
Why are you using Split Shot in PvP in the first place? Are you just praying for an assist kill?
I switched in advance and planned for just that because clear the ground is getting a buff and stormwarden has two class features, blade storm and twin blade storm, that work very well with it. Works great and I'm better in groups than a split-shot spammer used to be. Also combat is just better for pvp, period. I'm trying to figure out what's better in a dungeon, use fox shift/step or split the sky on top of those two powers you mentioned.
I just don't see how you're killing GWFs with DOTs and no CC. With plaguefire your crits aren't going to be doing as much as an HR with vorpal.
I guess if he NEVER hits you once it could work.
Also, I think bile might be better than plague fire if you're intent is to trigger careful attack, especially on rogues because it may refresh itself for full duration.
Mainly split shot was great because charged it did comparable damage to aimed shot, and you couldn't interupt it. Not only that, but you could choose to hold the charge until the enemy stops dodging and then release (great on DCs and CWs and TRs). Plus of course it's AOE so you could hit multiple targets with it. Also it would follow rogues while charging even when they stealthed, although I'm not sure if it hit them after releasing.
Plus it's great for supportive dps on the middle node, which is probably what you were referring to.
All this is pretty much shot to hell with the nerf.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Eh, I see a few rogues upset that HRs who were already good at contesting nodes against them are a little better now.
God forbid they have competition on node contesting.
There seems to be something peculiarly synergistic between TW, CA, and PF. The total DPS appears to be greater than the sum of the parts. My burst is way below a vorpal user but my sustained damage is much higher.
I was playing around last night with mixing Boar's Rush into the rotation so the target can spend some time on his/her backside while TW hammers away. Seems to work OK.
I should point out that while this is super effective 1v1 it becomes exponentially less so as the number of opposition players increases. It's difficult to make work in the pitched battles at Mid for instance.
EDIT: You could be right about Bile but at the moment I can't afford one for testing.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Minus the handful of the best rogues in the game, node contesting is tilted way in favor of any hr at 15k and above (assuming some kind of rational pvp gearing and play), and that is even on non-pathfinder hrs. Pathfinder, forget it. The old vids of jerk(name removed) and nighw(name removed) would look much difference if that hr was todays pathfinder and that tr was todays perma.
Jugger Conq GF
....
HR's were always the anti-rogue imo. I never had too much trouble with them unless they overgeared me.
Aimed strike and plaguefire is just about as good as careful attack at getting a rogue out of stealth and that was always available. Plus HR's could get 3 second cooldown reductions from stormwind action and split shot was doing way more damage.
If an old stormwarden played the same as a pathfinder now using aimed-strike instead of careful attack, he would be at least as good at beating rogues.
The only thing that's changed is more HRs are using the DOT melee at will because basically it's the only good thing in Pathfinder. Stormwarden with the old split shot had a comparable DOT melee, but HRs didn't really need to use it because it had so much else going for it (better fox shift, better split shot and stormstep action).
I'm back to using my HR and I agree it's effective. But I could always kill GWFs with thornward and boar's rush and fox shift, so it's nothing really new, it's just a different way to go about it, relying more on thornward/careful attack damage than fox shift burst.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I can't argue with it being more DOT damage especially if you're using AS on top of it (500-1k every 1.5 seconds more to be exact), but overall I find it about as effective as before when I could just hit them 4 times with fox shift and a couple split shots and kill them way before thornward even had a chance to do much damage.
I think that's the main reason I wasn't using thornward much before unless it was vs. a rogue, besides the mysterious buff that seems to have occurred without being listed in the mod patch notes- I killed things faster, including GWFs, than it would be practical to use.
Meh, haven't been using SS for a few days now and it hasn't hurt me much. I can pump just as much damage out with marauder's rush, rain of arrows, fox shift, clear the ground/rapid strike combo. Then again, most people don't have 2k+ defense/1.5k Regen & life steal to able to safely play like a mouth foaming lunatic.