I might have figured out the elo

overddrive

I had a suspicion that the elo simply put a winning player on a team of horrible players vs a team of winning players, but hadent really confirmed it till now.

Lowby pvp is where with a combination of some twinks and experience you can have a major impact on a match.

So I rolled and twinked a new gf for the xp weekend and won about 15 matches in a row. The opponents did not become any more difficult at all, but my team mates became progressively worse. So I guess that is how it works. At about 50/50 win loss I will probably be on a team that is right around my win/loss, with the exception of one player who has a much better win/loss than the rest of the team. I'll be on progressively better teams until, again, I win too many in a row then it will be my turn to carry again.

Thoughts?

mehguy138

I still think that this is a pure random. I won perfectly balanced match of 11-12k GS players in each team with i guess 1000/980 score. Then I was matched with 15-17k GS people against 10k GS- people. Then I was matched against full 5 man premade and lost, my team had a 6k GS CW that left after his first death. Then I had losing streak about 5 matches, in every match my team was destroyed by much better geared players. Then again a fair match that I lost 950/1000. I can't figure out any consistent pattern of those matches.

pherrow

overddrive wrote: »

I had a suspicion that the elo simply put a winning player on a team of horrible players vs a team of winning players, but hadent really confirmed it till now.

Lowby pvp is where with a combination of some twinks and experience you can have a major impact on a match.

So I rolled and twinked a new gf for the xp weekend and won about 15 matches in a row. The opponents did not become any more difficult at all, but my team mates became progressively worse. So I guess that is how it works. At about 50/50 win loss I will probably be on a team that is right around my win/loss, with the exception of one player who has a much better win/loss than the rest of the team. I'll be on progressively better teams until, again, I win too many in a row then it will be my turn to carry again.

Thoughts?

Seems something like this is going on. Question, where are you on the score board when you are carrying? Because I have the same experience as you, especially the last few days. The ELO has mostly offered me pug stomp opportunities. When I carry a team I'm usually really low on the board since I have to leave a point before it is capped so I can contest another. If I stayed for my own points we would surely loose since most of the team is on my node by this time or shortly on their way not understanding we must prevent points by contesting elsewhere. I figured my low scoring during these matches were the culprit in my case.

oicidraz

For me, the often is to be destroyed, or destroy the other group, I would say that the 30% (maybe 40%) of the times, are balanced...

At about 50/50 win loss I will probably be on a team that is right around my win/loss, with the exception of one player who has a much better win/loss than the rest of the team. I'll be on progressively better teams until, again, I win too many in a row then it will be my turn to carry again.

Maybe it's like that, or maybe it's pure random... Idk, but I don't think they would do that way... doesn't make sense for me....

overddrive

pherrow wrote: »

Seems something like this is going on. Question, where are you on the score board when you are carrying? Because I have the same experience as you, especially the last few days. The ELO has mostly offered me pug stomp opportunities. When I carry a team I'm usually really low on the board since I have to leave a point before it is capped so I can contest another. If I stayed for my own points we would surely loose since most of the team is on my node by this time or shortly on their way not understanding we must prevent points by contesting elsewhere. I figured my low scoring during these matches were the culprit in my case.

Normally exactly what you are saying is the case when I am on my hr, which is 60. My low level (like 19 now) gf, really it is less than efficient to try to waddle too far so I consistently go to home and 2, especially on the rivenscar map. So on my gf it is normally at the top.

I DO think there should be some way to get points for doing exactly what you are saying. Stuff like this happens constantly: You kill an enemy player on home node and the node starts to turn blue. The rest of the team shows up on home node to get their 300 points. Node 2 is turning red. So you leave home before it is capped and rush to 2 to contest it as long as possible vs 3 or 4 or the entire other team. You contest 2 and last just about until home node is completely blue, then you die and the rest of your team goes to 2. You respawn and fly to enemy node, maybe kill an enemy player who comes to defend it. As it fills blue, the rest of your team rushes in from an uncapped 2 to get the points. Rinse and repeat.

overddrive

oicidraz wrote: »

For me, the often is to be destroyed, or destroy the other group, I would say that the 30% (maybe 40%) of the times, are balanced...



Maybe it's like that, or maybe it's pure random... Idk, but I don't think they would do that way... doesn't make sense for me....

It doesnt make sense. I might even think that the teams we are against are just getting harder but really they arent. Not harder to kill and no smarter in how they are taking nodes. Wins at this point are like my team in double digit deaths, the enemy team with very few deaths but we still win because I am the only 1 standing on point fighting.

bielka72

overddrive wrote: »

I had a suspicion that the elo simply put a winning player on a team of horrible players vs a team of winning players, but hadent really confirmed it till now.

Lowby pvp is where with a combination of some twinks and experience you can have a major impact on a match.

So I rolled and twinked a new gf for the xp weekend and won about 15 matches in a row. The opponents did not become any more difficult at all, but my team mates became progressively worse. So I guess that is how it works. At about 50/50 win loss I will probably be on a team that is right around my win/loss, with the exception of one player who has a much better win/loss than the rest of the team. I'll be on progressively better teams until, again, I win too many in a row then it will be my turn to carry again.

Thoughts?

I would say you are 100% right. Just now I killed 20 people in one match, 2nd in points and we won the match. All the people on my team had GS of over 11K (I'm 15.3k GS) The next match my team has 3 9K GS people and we get wiped out completely.

I don't mind losing, but I do mind if the odds are seriously stacked againgst me from the start. I don't mind if the other team has 4 GWFS but at least make my party members have equivalent GS.
yes, I Know that GS is no indication of skill, but as a general rule higher GS means more powerful gear.

This isn't an isolated incident either. This has happened too many times before to me.

I really really hate this ELO system, why can't they fix it? Unless they designed it like this.

anatas07

There is NO ELO system ... proof ?

Before reading further BEWARE - this might be very unpleasant to see - this is a picture I got from a lvl 60 team member (I was playing a 13k gs gwf)



Do NOT tell me this one got like hundreds of wins in pvp and got in team with all the 13-16k gs players ... do NOT !

Yes I know, newbies need to pvp too, but putting this one to fight with an 15k gs one is simply a murder ...

mehguy138

That's why I'm saying there should be GS based matchmaking system. GS doesn't equal skill? Sure, GS surpasses skill. There is no chance a 10k GS player will win vs 14k GS player. Not a single one. My friend left the game after Tenacity update, because we were forced to play with those in the picture above and couldn't leave. It was a disaster, and he returned to play WoW. I asked him yesterday if he comes back to see the IWD update, he answered "Only when they make me playing in PVP with and against approximately equally geared players."

loboguild

I'm not exactly fond of the matchmaking, but even I think that it can't be THAT cheap.

The more obvious answer is that they toned down the matchmaking because of long queue times to a degree that it, yes, will match up 5k GS vs. 16k GS (in a way) if it can't find equal competition.

But I share the general observation that, as a player who wins more often than he loses, I would expect to be put in a team of equally skilled players that are fighting a team of equally skilled players. Instead I have to instruct armies of 50% mounts most of the time vs premades. That feels odd.

Either I'm completely overestimating my own ELO, which I wouldn't rule out, or there is some truth to what the OP said and the system is adjusting by putting a good player between clueless monkeys.

birdmanrules

overddrive wrote: »

I had a suspicion that the elo simply put a winning player on a team of horrible players vs a team of winning players, but hadent really confirmed it till now.

Lowby pvp is where with a combination of some twinks and experience you can have a major impact on a match.

So I rolled and twinked a new gf for the xp weekend and won about 15 matches in a row. The opponents did not become any more difficult at all, but my team mates became progressively worse. So I guess that is how it works. At about 50/50 win loss I will probably be on a team that is right around my win/loss, with the exception of one player who has a much better win/loss than the rest of the team. I'll be on progressively better teams until, again, I win too many in a row then it will be my turn to carry again.

Thoughts?

I have the same sorts of matches

overddrive

I am not saying that the pattern mentioned in the op is at all intentional. It could just be what happens mathematically when you throw in all of the variables that we are told are taken into account for matchmaking, including ramping down and up of elo system to effect q times.

Intentional or not, this does happen.

What also happens sometimes is you get someone on mic that knows what they are doing and they give polite instructions. This is invaluable. These guys are golden. I would call them "battle callers", as they kind of coordinate everyone. It also turns out they are normally one of the better/more geared players on a team. Makes me wanna suggest that this be a "position", someone volunteers to call the match for each team and in turn gets more glory for their effort.

twilightwatchman

anatas07 wrote: »

There is NO ELO system ... proof ?

Before reading further BEWARE - this might be very unpleasant to see - this is a picture I got from a lvl 60 team member (I was playing a 13k gs gwf)



Do NOT tell me this one got like hundreds of wins in pvp and got in team with all the 13-16k gs players ... do NOT !

Yes I know, newbies need to pvp too, but putting this one to fight with an 15k gs one is simply a murder ...

I've had similar party members. I think what's happening here is that these players are so new that they don't have an ELO rating yet so the system randomly assigns them to parties until it gets enough data to work out what their score should be.

As an aside, this shows how messed up the levelling is. You should not be able to get to 60 with a GS of 5k - just upgrading with drops should get you higher than that.

jazzfong

At least you got a tr, you can still ask him to stealth cap for a while but i got a cw in my team, carried by his another 2 8k & 10k guildmates. How come these trolls are in our 13k-15k gs pvp games? I really dont believe my ELO is so low till they can join me...

rashylewizz

How about make a thread post a pic of the worst teammate on your team (censoring their names of course)

fgreyspear

anatas07 wrote: »

There is NO ELO system ... proof ?

Before reading further BEWARE - this might be very unpleasant to see - this is a picture I got from a lvl 60 team member (I was playing a 13k gs gwf)



Do NOT tell me this one got like hundreds of wins in pvp and got in team with all the 13-16k gs players ... do NOT !

Yes I know, newbies need to pvp too, but putting this one to fight with an 15k gs one is simply a murder ...

I agree. I wonder if some matches should simply not be and as a result if there should be times when we cannot pvp.

Just to be fair, the ELO system is getting a lot of flag when really it cannot produce new players or just matching players out of thin air. It has to work with whoever currently queues and find the most reasonable combination out of them. When there is no reasonable combination then there are two options: it either picks the least evil of combinations (which still will be evil and suck for some), or, it simply does not allow pvp'ing.

The later option will definitely suck for everyone, but while it sucks would it be fair for all, too. Not so the evil match making where it will always punish the weaker players, simply because it is in the nature of the game to target the weakest players.

I pvp with a GF and a CW, and while PvP with the GF compares to a walk in the park, is a match with the CW at a low GS simply demoralizing. A CW can get one-shotted by a ranger with high GS and there is just hardly anything one can do in such a match. The moment you get the CW into range to rain havoc onto your enemies (...) are you also dead. One hits into a wall.

The question is, should this be part of the pvp experience or should players be protected from the worst of match making?

Perhaps it might be a wise idea to look towards an automatic GS scaling when the ELO system cannot find a good combination. Players with a low GS could get a bonus to their stats for the duration of a match in order to make them more competitive. Similar in the way it is already done for matches below level 60 (players get automatically levelled up to level 19, 29, ..., or 59 for the matches).

overddrive

^^^^

It is really really discouraging that there arent enough players on for the elo to work properly or that cryptic would even implement a system requiring a larger active playerbase than what they have.

That being the case, it is what we have to work with. Try to help the low gs player if they seem like they are trying and want to actually be good in pvp?

forumnamesarelam

I spent most of this afternoon doing PvP on my GWF and I didn't get into a single competitive match - they were all completely one sided with me either on the winning or losing team. The last two matches I fought in actually, the enemy opponents were so woefully under powered it was laughable as I was basically two shotting guys left and right.

I was also in a match today where it was obvious everyone was way below me in gear score. I racked up over 20 kills in a short period of time and while it was kind of humorous, there is no reason why I should have been in that battleground with those guys. It was completely unfair to the enemies that had to go against me (I was winning against them 3 on 1!!! That's just stupid).

Even when this works in my favour, it completely annoys me. For the love of Gygax, please develop a better matching system Cryptic!!

lucifron44

Until the average Elos of the blue and red teams gets displayed in the final chart at the end of the pvp session, all about the Elo remains speculation. Cryptic may perfectly have implemented nothing and be trolling the community with an imaginary Elo.

So far, yes, I have noticed that losing a match does not make the next match easier, nor winning a match makes the next one more difficult. Unlike, say, chess, where they use Elo for parings in open tournaments and after a few games you tend to get paired with players who match your level.

overddrive

lucifron44 wrote: »

Until the average Elos of the blue and red teams gets displayed in the final chart at the end of the pvp session, all about the Elo remains speculation. Cryptic may perfectly have implemented nothing and be trolling the community with an imaginary Elo.

So far, yes, I have noticed that losing a match does not make the next match easier, nor winning a match makes the next one more difficult. Unlike, say, chess, where they use Elo for parings in open tournaments and after a few games you tend to get paired with players who match your level.

With elo "dialed way down" to keep que times from getting out of hand, it is going to take a lot longer than a few games for any kind of parity to happen in matchmaking and when it does it is not going to be nearly as equal as if the elo was dialed way up. The system in place is for a larger player base than what we have. It is like no one ever asked, "wow this is a lot of work and we are designing a nice elo system, but for it to actually work we will need a minimum of "x" amount of players quing at any given time. Do x amounts of players q at any given time?"

rittzbitz

They might not have asked it, but they were certainly told that this would be the case.

It's a matter of choice. Have the absurdly long queue times, and hope that the match is fair, or have minimal queue times with (relatively) no match-making. Eventually, the more active players would reach a cap on their Elo rating and just end up playing each other endlessly.

This is what happens when you only have a few hundred active players PvP'ing.

This issue was apparent before Elo within the lower level brackets. You could queue at an entry level, say 20, and possibly level all the way to 30 without a queue pop.

emilemo

overddrive wrote: »

I had a suspicion that the elo simply put a winning player on a team of horrible players vs a team of winning players, but hadent really confirmed it till now.

Lowby pvp is where with a combination of some twinks and experience you can have a major impact on a match.

So I rolled and twinked a new gf for the xp weekend and won about 15 matches in a row. The opponents did not become any more difficult at all, but my team mates became progressively worse. So I guess that is how it works. At about 50/50 win loss I will probably be on a team that is right around my win/loss, with the exception of one player who has a much better win/loss than the rest of the team. I'll be on progressively better teams until, again, I win too many in a row then it will be my turn to carry again.

Thoughts?

I think you pretty much got it. Now all we need is to figure why the system doesnt care if it pits 2-3 GWF/GFs vs 2-3 DCs

emilemo

pherrow wrote: »

Seems something like this is going on. Question, where are you on the score board when you are carrying? Because I have the same experience as you, especially the last few days. The ELO has mostly offered me pug stomp opportunities. When I carry a team I'm usually really low on the board since I have to leave a point before it is capped so I can contest another. If I stayed for my own points we would surely loose since most of the team is on my node by this time or shortly on their way not understanding we must prevent points by contesting elsewhere. I figured my low scoring during these matches were the culprit in my case.

This is 100% correct. On a low GS team my high GS toon is at the bottom thanks to running into 3-4 enemies while the rest of my team caps home or if lucky mid point.

emilemo

mehguy138 wrote: »

That's why I'm saying there should be GS based matchmaking system. GS doesn't equal skill? Sure, GS surpasses skill. There is no chance a 10k GS player will win vs 14k GS player. Not a single one. My friend left the game after Tenacity update, because we were forced to play with those in the picture above and couldn't leave. It was a disaster, and he returned to play WoW. I asked him yesterday if he comes back to see the IWD update, he answered "Only when they make me playing in PVP with and against approximately equally geared players."

This is it right there, GS matched teams with win/loss ration coming in as a 2nd criterion.

asterotg

I am quite sure, that there is no ELO at all. If there would be a ELO, I woud expect, to get better matched mates/ enemies while the PvP hour is active, due to a larger player base. This is not happening.

It is random, just luck. You get the 16k+ players with golden artefacts and perf. enchant., yay, or you get the 5-10k mates against beforementioned enemies, nay. In between there are games where the teams are equaly geared/ undergeared.

In some matches I have to equip AoE at wills etc., because I have to fight 3 or 4v1 on the enemy node or even on 2. I did enough PvP, that a ELO system woud not match me with or against players, who have no gear, no tactics and not even a basic understanding of PvP mechanics.

I did PvP for fun, now I que for PvP hoping for a decent match and getting disappointed time and time again. I was allways against base hugging or leaving your team, but in the last few weeks I left my team some times, because I was not willing to waste any more of my time.

Some friends of mine did leave the game at all due to the not existing ELO.

overddrive

emilemo wrote: »

This is 100% correct. On a low GS team my high GS toon is at the bottom thanks to running into 3-4 enemies while the rest of my team caps home or if lucky mid point.

That is really common and really annoying.

benskix2

I really doubt there is any matchmaking at all going on in low level PVP, there aren't enough players and the people playing lvl 20 pvp havn't been in enough matches to even have an accurate ELO rating. Also you're bad for twinking.

mehguy138

overddrive wrote: »

That is really common and really annoying.

And when I'm trying to ask them to back cap the enemy node, or use some certain tactics or abilities, they reply "lol, you newb with low score shut up I have more points then you lol," I want to not PvP anymore. The good thing there's an unlimited ignore list (hopefully).

overddrive

mehguy138 wrote: »

And when I'm trying to ask them to back cap the enemy node, or use some certain tactics or abilities, they reply "lol, you newb with low score shut up I have more points then you lol," I want to not PvP anymore. The good thing there's an unlimited ignore list (hopefully).

I've gotten to the point where I'll troll the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of my own team if they are being blatantly stupid. The answer seems to be to just join a guild and do all premades, and that does work, but guild vs guild premade matches are almost a different game entirely than pug vs pugs, especially ones involving the better guilds. You feel you went from batting around preschoolers to playing in the nfl.

overddrive

Ok I think I've figured out why you get put on garbage teams after winning x amount. Bad players play to up their individual score and do not play for the team win. So they get high scores for being <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and greedy. Then they end up matched with players they have no business playing with/against. Then they cry about being matched against opponents who are too difficult for them. I am pretty sure the elo takes individual scores into account.

twilightwatchman

overddrive wrote: »

Ok I think I've figured out why you get put on garbage teams after winning x amount. Bad players play to up their individual score and do not play for the team win. So they get high scores for being <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and greedy. Then they end up matched with players they have no business playing with/against. Then they cry about being matched against opponents who are too difficult for them. I am pretty sure the elo takes individual scores into account.

That would be incredibly stupid. So is probably what is happening.