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Has the NW Foundry Been a Success, Failure, or Something in the Middle?
kirksplat
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Hi NW authors and players.
I'm a long term STO Foundry author who is curious as to how your community would sum up the launch and history of NW's Foundry. From our side of the pond, you folks have the programmers and the experts. NW's Foundry was the next big thing that got all the attention, whereas ours was sort of the testing phase that no longer gets updated with big features, etc.
So, I'm just curious how all of you would describe the Foundry for NW. Was it a success, failure, or something in-between? Why? What were the good and bad design choices? What does the future hold? Are you optimistic or pessimistic? Are you hopeful or jaded?
Basically, is there any kind of consensus over here about the toolset? How would you describe your Foundry to an outsider like me?
I'm a long term STO Foundry author who is curious as to how your community would sum up the launch and history of NW's Foundry. From our side of the pond, you folks have the programmers and the experts. NW's Foundry was the next big thing that got all the attention, whereas ours was sort of the testing phase that no longer gets updated with big features, etc.
So, I'm just curious how all of you would describe the Foundry for NW. Was it a success, failure, or something in-between? Why? What were the good and bad design choices? What does the future hold? Are you optimistic or pessimistic? Are you hopeful or jaded?
Basically, is there any kind of consensus over here about the toolset? How would you describe your Foundry to an outsider like me?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by kirksplat on
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Well, here it no longer gets updated with big features, etc.
Seriously, the Foundry has been largely ignored. There was one big functionality update (a good one, thanks Devs!), and we've seen a few extra details and encounters added, but it still has issues, one of the biggest of which is that there is no real in-game incentive for most people to play anything other than a 15-minute daily.
There are many Details (for those not making Foundry quests, Details are all of the physical building blocks, from buildings to decorations to plants to rocks...) in the game that are not available to Authors. There are monsters in the game that are not available to Authors. The ability to make an NPC sit is in the game but not available to Authors. A number of things with built-in animations (levers, for example) that are in the game are not available to Authors. You get the idea.
Also, the ability to customize encounters is limited. If there's a group of three mobs and you only want one of them, you may have to dump the other two somewhere else to get rid of them. You can't simply place the one mob you want to use. Costume customization is random. Some costumes can be height scaled, some can't. Some costumes can have skin color changed, some can't. Regular clothing is mostly unavailable unless you choose a stock NPC to work from, and even then you can't change the colors.
Long-standing bugs have yet to be fixed. Moving a building in the 3D editor creates a double-image that makes it difficult to work with. Teleporters are just screwy, especially if you move part of one in the 3D editor. Traps are so gimped as to be no more than an annoyance, and one is a huge annoyance, because it has a habit of perma-rooting (although the /stuck command gets you out of it).
Basic building tools like timers are nonexistant. Authors have to use up valuable resources (there's a cap on how much of what you can use, called the Budget) cobbling together timers based on some critter offscreen getting killed. You can't have something appear where something was killed. Speech outside of dialog is very limited.
On the plus side, rumor has it that an upcoming release (months from now, most likely, since we've got one coming up shortly) will finally show Foundry some love. I'll believe it when I see it at this point.
So, success or failure? It's something in-between. There's so much potential, but other parts of the game - namely the Zen store and PvP - seem to get all the attention, and the reward system is nonexistent. Despite how it may sound from above, I'm a fan of the Foundry. In fact, it's the main thing that keeps me at this game. So if you're interested in building things, I heartily encourage it... but don't expect wonders from the toolset. Part of the challenge is working around the many limitations.
If you check out the Foundry Bugs in my signature, you'll notice they've actually fixed about 20 bugs when Icewindale gets released. Some even a year or more old. It feels like there is probably only a single (maaaaaybe two) developers working on it (and a manager). ...and none seem to know anything about release notes or bug reports.
With this IWD release we are getting a nice bunch of new detail assets -- snowy outdoor terrain maps, several items from the liars festival (halloween) and the winter festival. Rumor is that a handful of new encounters will be released as well. And, of course, introduced a few new bugs. For instance the outdoor Terrain, snowy extra-large map - the purple/pink snow/ice got fixed, but most of the trees and rocks are now floating 20' above the terrain. Renders the map completely unusable unless your quest deals with anti-gravity or something.
Some of the biggest main problems remain is the 15-minute farming encouragement for foundry play, and the unfathomable lousy treasure both rewards and author options.
I wish they would just take the "internal" foundry editor and release it instead of gutting it and dumbing it down for "the users."
When they released the room-builder/dungeon-detail assets that were one sided graphically, I was amazed. It was like mana from heaven. -- Although I can't imagine how many "users" got confused...hopefully very, very few.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
The Foundry is really very unique.
I own and have played many many games and MMOs but this is the first time I find a system like this.
There is really lots of potential here but the execution is extremely poor.
The reward system pretty much does not encourage creation of anything other than 15 minute farm quests/15 minute exploit quests (using timers).
The adjusted rating system pretty much does not encourage new authors to make quests since it favours those who were here earlier. It also encourages trolling since 1 one-star-rating review can mitigate around 5 or so five-star-rating reviews and given how little players know about the limitations of the Foundry, being rated low for something that is out of your control is extremely common.
This is coupled with the search system which is buggy as hell though I have noticed that the developers have taken a step towards improving it by introducing the "show played" concept which hides played quests so that players may see the quests which they have yet played and maybe try them out.
However, given the reward system and the fear of adverse selection, most players would probably just still stick with their subscribed authors, featured quests, shorter duration quests and/or 15 min farm quests when it comes to selecting quests to play.
There are many bugs identified by the players, and some fixes done but not many. So, there is still some activity from the developers but it is very obvious that the Foundry isn't very high or high on their priority list. Many players-suggested Foundry ideas have also seemingly fell on deaf ears. There is some news of Foundry-related improvements in coming modules so the developers may have pushed it up their priority list a little though I am not very convinced about them taking the Foundry seriously.
There are many exploit quests, some blatant and some hidden, which we are encouraged to report but once reported, nothing is really done about them. I reported 17 of them (blatant ones with 0min playtime and quest journal text saying they are just there to give achievements and receive tips) with shortcodes, screenshots and names via pm and also in-game about a week or so ago but when I checked yesterday, they are still there in the top 200 of the "Best List". I then send an email to support yesterday and the 17 quests are still there just now when I logged in.
The Foundry system is pretty easy to pick up and the reward for making quests is mainly intrinsic in nature or as most of us like to call it "A labour of love". It is very fun to make and see the quests that you have in mind come to life and played by yourself and others.
Unfortunately, the process after making the quests which involves begging for reviews and general promotion of your quests just to get plays is very depressing so I would recommend a new user that " If you do it, you do it purely for the fun of making the quest and playing it yourself after. Do not expect it to get played much by others or for yourself to be appreciated for making it. Otherwise, it's best to stay away from it".
As for what the future entails, I seriously do not know. This would require a lot more communication between playerbase and the developers which is kind of lacking. Personally, I'm not very optimistic about it though but I will continue authoring till I have accomplished what I have set out to do and hope that there will be significant and relevant improvements during that time.
I don't think author subscriptions are working very well. I don't know if users don't understand them, or they're not clear enough somehow. I've gotten many, many reviews on my "featured" quest that have stated they would love or "can't wait" for sequels, or other quests, and yet almost all my non-featured (also highly rated) quests grow cobwebs and perhaps one play every month (or six!).
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
I do or used to play a lot of Foundries prior to testing on Preview lately. I generally liked them as a nice change of pace and good added content. And I admit they can be hit or miss depending on the designer. Sometimes you draw a really good one with someone who is excellent in both storytelling, programming, and encounter setup, but... sometimes you end up in one where the designer had no clue about any one of the above.
I think its an excellent addition. But I also think those who try their hand at it could use a better tutorial.
And though I do not design things myself, I would be willing to take the word of the designers that its got some serious limitations given some of the things I've seen in the modules.
I think it could be that they don't know how to subscribe because I remember I answered someone's question on how to "sticky" a quest they like. Maybe they didn't notice the "subscribe to author" button.
It may also be possible that they have subscribed to too many authors so their "subscribed" list end up very cluttered and maybe that's why they didn't notice that you added a new quest.
Perhaps there should be a pop-up or something that will alert players when their subscribed authors make their very first publish of their new quest.
Some of the commonly faulted things that authors have absolutely no control are:
1. Loot (both mob drops and the final chest)
2. AI of encounters and followers - traps can affect their path-finding
3. AI of player's companion - traps can affect their path-finding
4. The sparkly path - We can set to enable or disable it but it will always seek the shortest possible path regardless of obstacles.
5. Some sounds - Some sounds work in Foundry but once published, will never appear.
6. Voiceovers
7. Player's preferences (to humor, dialog/style of writing, ending, quest duration .etc)
8. Player's skill (with combat, platforming, puzzles .etc)
9. Player's inventory space - Related to quest items
10. There are still many limitations but those are only known to authors and are usually faulted by players who may think that the author did not do something out of laziness or ignorance, when the truth is that we really can't do it. For instance, if a non-author plays a desert map but it doesn't look like a desert (maybe just grayscale backdrop and blowing wind), he/she may fault the author on the "poorness" of the map without knowing that there actually are no desert details or terrain in the Foundry for authors to use in the first place.
Authors don't need to control loot (although being able to place a few skill nodes would be nice). What authors need is for Cryptic to put in a reward system on level with the one already in place for PvP, one that encourages and rewards play of Foundries in general, and specifically Foundries that a player has not already played. As it is, the system in place provides little reward for players to do anything other than their as-close-as-possible-to-15-minutes Daily (repeated as necessary to get the ADs), and this is a source of extreme frustration to Foundry authors. A change of pace, a different view, curiosity, etc. are not sufficient to get most people into a Foundry quest. They only play certain ones, usually pulled off the top of the "best" list. Anyone else has to basically beg for players.
This has been covered many, many times on other threads, so I won't go into detail here on the many excellent suggestions that have been made to get around this core flaw.
-- @Gruffydd
Do Foundry rewards not scale with the length of the mission over here? They tried the 15-minute minimum at STO well over a year ago and it was a train wreck. It's been fixed for a long time, so that an hour-long mission rewards 3 or 4 times the dilithium (our currency) as a 15-minute loot farm.
You guys probably don't know what these numbers mean, but we have a per toon cap of 8000 dilithium that we can "refine," meaning excess can't be converted to zen until the next day.
Right now, during our bonus dilithium weekend, a Foundry spotlight is awarding around 6000 dilithium for just one mission. We also have a daily bonus for non-spotlights that awards bonus dilithium and XP.
Regular non-event rewards are now about 1500 dilithium for a loot farm that actually counts and about 3500 for a long story mission.
They have the tech to do this for you guys. I assume they don't because of an intentional design choice. A lot of the NW design choices baffle me, like how all your dialogues have to be talk to contacts and not popups.
Anyway, the scaling rewards are nice, but people can't find our missions in a sea of loot grinders that are frankly exploits, like shooting defenseless mobs in a barrel.
The tech is there for us. I wonder why you all don't have it. A system that privileges a 15 minute grinder is kind of an insult to people who tell a story, especially if it doesn't reward the player.
Are there really no benefits to playing the longer quests, beyond the story?
Over here end rewards for a foundry are a junk green item. (Plus some XP) Sometimes it's a junk white item instead for low level characters. The only Astral Diamond rewards (our version of dilithium from what I have read) are from a daily which requires the completion of X daily eligible quests. (X is based on character level, it is 4 at level 60. Astral diamonds are X times 1,000) Daily eligible requires them to be average duration of 15 minutes or higher and 20 or more plays and 5 or more reviews.
Is there a cap on how many diamonds you can turn in? That would give me an idea of what 4 missions are actually worth.
So, if I understand all the responses in this thread:
Your diamond-to-zen currency is only related to Foundry with a wrapper quest that privileges 15 minute quests, since 3 or 4 story quests would probably be 2-3 hours vs. 1 hour for 4 lootz grinders that do the bare minimum to qualify (or they take the least time to complete for the wrapper).
There is no other way that Foundry is connected to zen? And it's only 1 chest, and not a lot of mission "drops." Is there any relationship between the quality of the loot and the amount of time a player spent grinding or reading your mission?
Cap is 24k. I forgot to mention that at level 60 there is some days (About once per week.) another mission that awards 8k rough Astral Diamonds for completing 4 foundry quests that are daily eligible.
And yes, you're right about everything else. Though some 15 minute quests are story based, especially if they are part of a campaign.
You get 4K Astral Diamonds for doing 4 Quests. These quests must be at least 15 minutes long and have 20 plays. If you do an hour long quest you still only get credit for doing ONE quest. So if you do four 15 minute quests you get 4K Ad in an hour. If you do four 1 hour quests you get 4K Ad in four hours.
It is fairly plain to see why people don't care about quality when the only incentive is to make sure a quest is 15 minutes long.
In other words the actual rewards are true trash (green items if you are lucky) and the daily directly gives better rewards to quests which can be completed in 15 minutes average (as sometimes you can speed run quicker than 15 minutes).
The Foundry is not a failure...
But the rewards need to be looked at sooner rather than later as right now there is next to no incentive to play missions. The main bulk of the players either ignore it or do quests specifically designed to be formed for the Daily Rewards.
This was true for us, as well. But, for us, the problem was that all of the Foundry devs moved to the NW team. Last time I knew, you still had them. It happened about 2 or 3 months after launch, with new things like branching dialogues and triggers. There has never been an update to match that one big functionality update. I assumed you folks would get them, since you have a Foundry team.
We are jealous of the amounts of assets you have. We build starships from stone slabs, because we don't have ceilings or floors. We had to beg and plead for a year to get a transporter pad prop.
You don't have sit animations? Or are you referring to a state change, like having a npc walk to a chair and then sit?
We had these rumors for about 4 releases. Our EP kept telling us that they're just waiting for NW to launch to "port" the new Foundry. Or, the big Foundry expansion was always just around the corner... just after next update... just after new faction... just after NW launches... So, I would be careful with these rumors.
Sorry for other questions. This is fascinating to me. If my math is correct, then it sounds like your team could better "port" STO's rewards systems. Because it sounds like this is the comparison:
Play 3 hours of quality story in NW and it earns you some green loot and 1/6 of your daily refining cap (maybe you use a different word than refine).
vs.
Play 3 hours of quality story in STO and max out you daily cap and earn tons of green and blue drops.
Granted, there are faster ways to reach cap. But given the numbers, if you had our system, one Foundry spotlight would equal like 14,000 of your diamonds.
Out of curiosity, what are the additional rewards for playing a spotlighted mission over here?
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
My jaw has dropped. How often does this empty box (of sorts) actually happen? I can't imagine how many angry 1-stars STO authors would get from players who open a present at the end of our mission to find nothing shiny in the box. That seems like trolling the player and letting the Foundry author get the backlash for the trolling.
Is it just random? Could an epic 45 minute quest reward an empty present?
It's definitely WAY too often -- and yes, many, many, many (the majority) of 1-star reviews are because of no-treasure (or total junk).
A single mob most often drops MORE loot than is in the final chest. Been that way for probably close to a year.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
I'll assume that as soon as you folks get a few of those 1-star "where's my lootz?" reviews, then your missions forever disappear from a static list of the top 50 or 100 "Best." Is that a fair assumption? It sounds like our situations are comparable, in that you either have a spotlight that gets played or a mission that is lost in never never land, if it isn't an exploit or a convenient loot grinder.
But, unlike STO authors, the players are penalizing you far more for something that you can't control. They one star us sometimes for the loot, but they generally know that we don't control it, since all the exploits they play tell them that.
Pretty much. Unless your featured, you're doomed to oblivion.
All my quests even have a "false" chest at the end that explains that the contents of the "real" chest they are about to open is calculated by Cryptic and authors have NO control over the contents -- and STILL you get 1-starred for the poor treasure. *facepalm*
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
And yes Kirksplat I complain about the reward system constantly. It's the biggest flaw with The Foundry in Neverwinter.
Akromatik is working on getting the developers to put some love into the rewards system. We actually had a big discussion about it just last week.
At least tell me that they are featuring you regularly, with community contests and such. About the only way we can get plays is with a spotlight, but at least our STO community manager has been very active with contests where winners get a spotlight. And on most weeks when the Foundry isn't broken, there is a chosen spotlight for that week.
So there are community events that bring us together, and there is at least some dev recognition of the good, along with the incentives to go out and play the good and get our diamonds.
Are there similar Foundry challenges here, as well as Foundry rewards weekends, etc.?
3 quests get selected for featuring every Tuesday. This started 3 weeks ago with there being none on the second week.
There is also a screenshot contest. The first week's winner got a Founder's DLC pack. I'm not sure if the contest has stopped.
All these started 3 weeks ago because before that we didn't have a community manager for quite some time.
Interesting. What does being "featured" mean? What do players get for playing a featured mission? What does the author get as far as a zen prize and stuff? Just curious.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you have like 15 mission slots as authors. Is that right? We have a 40 mission limit, but we usually use each slot to tell a 35-45 minute story. But if you folks have only 15 slots, and you're using them to make campaigns where each mission is a 15 minute chunk of the campaign, it sounds like they are making you waste your slots.
Did that make any sense?
40 slots? Now I'm jealous, with that I might actually be able to fit my quests on one account.
If I recall correctly, they gave us 10 to start with, and then they expanded it to 15. When we were around the 1 1/2 year mark, they expanded it to 40. I have no idea if the same will be true for all of you. When we got 40, it felt obvious that there were like maybe 200 people in the world who cared about telling stories with the Foundry. And maybe 10 folks who posted to our forums.
But, by that point, we weren't under any kind of pressure to tell a story in 5 separate 15-minute chunks. So, most of us still had slots.