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why the silence?

pzg33pzg33 Member Posts: 121 Arc User
edited April 2014 in PvE Discussion
why are this games devs so inactive on the fourms? thats an old skool way of doing thins. right now they seem very outta touch and crazy slow at what could be fast hotfixes. it feels like WoW at 60 when the a dev post on the forums was like gettign epic loot drop. this game pvp wise is just not there right, so many stupid things. would be good to hear their thoughts/plans. right now it just seems they don't care.
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  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    They're actually better about communicating now than they were in the past.

    Dev communication is great, but a couple of things to keep in mind:

    1) They have to be a little selective in what they share with players. Not everything deserves to be a gigantic secret, but sometimes there are good reasons for them not being forthcoming. It could be as simple as not wanting to get players riled up over stuff that may not even make it to Preview, or it could be as complicated as the PWE marketing team gagging them from teasing big news too early.

    2) All things considered, I think most of us would rather that the dev team spend its labor budget more on actual game development and less on public relations. Sure, make occasional appearances and participate in player dialogues here and there, but there's a reason they hire community managers and other non-development staff :P
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    Dominion - Paladin

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  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    From my experience, talkative developers only lead to disaster.

    If there's anything Cryptic is doing right, it is not openly and directly discussing development issues with the general public. Especially when a considerable portion of that general public are non-paying people, meaning they don't technically qualify as customers. You don't have a say in anything when you don't contribute to its sales as a customer.
    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  • skalt112skalt112 Member Posts: 1,089 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    kweassa wrote: »
    From my experience, talkative developers only lead to disaster.

    If there's anything Cryptic is doing right, it is not openly and directly discussing development issues with the general public. Especially when a considerable portion of that general public are non-paying people, meaning they don't technically qualify as customers. You don't have a say in anything when you don't contribute to its sales as a customer.

    My experiences have led me to believe the exact opposite. Including your playerbase in the development process tends to lead to better customer satisfaction and better customer alligned features. Good developers know this and practice it. Some people may enjoy being mushrooms, but most do not.
  • melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    a lot of things in development are not discussed because they may be greatly changed before going live or never implemented.

    currently, the preview shard forum section is a great way to provide your feedback to the developers about upcoming content and changes.

    on occasion a dev might comment in other forum areas, but recurring topics such as adding the option to change initial ability stat rolls or race changes... the devs already know about this stuff. new requests and suggestions are provided to the devs through the community managers by way of regular meetings. there's no way to provide ETRs for this stuff because as the requirement for new content as well as unplanned issues arise, target dates would invariably be moved and it would just be another thing for players to complain about.

    the current level of dev interaction, in my opinion, is sufficient from a liability standpoint.
  • proneificationproneification Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 494 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    The developers and all staff here have mostly no (public) personal opinion.

    Just carefully crafted, politely ambiguous phrases meant to appease those that can be satisfied with such "information".

    I find this rather insulting, as you cannot tell the direction they desire to follow with the game.

    So from a customer pov, I consider this a public relations failure.
  • melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    The developers and all staff here have mostly no (public) personal opinion.

    Just carefully crafted, politely ambiguous phrases meant to appease those that can be satisfied with such "information".

    I find this rather insulting, as you cannot tell the direction they desire to follow with the game.

    So from a customer pov, I consider this a public relations failure.

    when you have official staff making any comment on the official forums, that comment is going to generally be taken as an official statement. so most companies do not want staff making comments to the general public. if you've ever worked for a private company, they always want you to refer press to either PR or to the company's attorney or some specific person; they never want you making any statement as a representative of the company.

    it's not meant to be insulting. it's just a liability issue. not to mention, all of what is in development is subject to change and may not ever be implemented. and every employee is under a strict NDA.

    for example, module three on the preview shard is under the final stages of development. they have already locked down what is going to be included in this module. they make it available for the public to test and to provide feedback so they can put any last minute tweaks on it, but for the most part, the bulk of the content will be released as is.

    i recall when they released module two onto the preview shard, the dungeon keys were showing on one of the builds. we were later told that this was not yet ready for prime time and of course we now know this is to be included in module three. if they decided at some point in development that dungeon keys didn't fit with neverwinter, they could have never been implemented. since they never really made any announcements stating that it would become a part of neverwinter, they wouldn't be required to make any specific comment on it.

    however like the left-over mechanic from development that led people to believe that unbinding companions would become a future option, a dev later made the statement that they had tried that in early development stages and decided it wasn't a direction they wanted to go with companions. paraphrasing, of course.

    but take that as you will. if you've been here long enough then you are familiar with the limitations of dev communications. i don't think it's a major problem. i think it's normal in this kind of environment.
  • skalt112skalt112 Member Posts: 1,089 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    when you have official staff making any comment on the official forums, that comment is going to generally be taken as an official statement. so most companies do not want staff making comments to the general public. if you've ever worked for a private company, they always want you to refer press to either PR or to the company's attorney or some specific person; they never want you making any statement as a representative of the company.

    it's not meant to be insulting. it's just a liability issue. not to mention, all of what is in development is subject to change and may not ever be implemented. and every employee is under a strict NDA.

    for example, module three on the preview shard is under the final stages of development. they have already locked down what is going to be included in this module. they make it available for the public to test and to provide feedback so they can put any last minute tweaks on it, but for the most part, the bulk of the content will be released as is.

    i recall when they released module two onto the preview shard, the dungeon keys were showing on one of the builds. we were later told that this was not yet ready for prime time and of course we now know this is to be included in module three. if they decided at some point in development that dungeon keys didn't fit with neverwinter, they could have never been implemented. since they never really made any announcements stating that it would become a part of neverwinter, they wouldn't be required to make any specific comment on it.

    however like the left-over mechanic from development that led people to believe that unbinding companions would become a future option, a dev later made the statement that they had tried that in early development stages and decided it wasn't a direction they wanted to go with companions. paraphrasing, of course.

    but take that as you will. if you've been here long enough then you are familiar with the limitations of dev communications. i don't think it's a major problem. i think it's normal in this kind of environment.

    plenty of games keep the playerbase informed. Take a look at warframe when it was in development. Weekly video blogs and q&a sessions. Free to play game. They faced the same liability issues as you have listed, and still chose to keep thier fans informed. The liability claim is a copout in my opinion.
  • istaywickedistaywicked Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    i have been taking a break fro DC Universe online, the executive producer and dev team are very interactive on their forums and other ways, hell i ran a raid with the executive producer once. they can make clear statements without giving things away. and a dev can make it clear they are expressing an opinion without it being an official statement. i understand the concept of remaining silent, but there is plenty of ways to interact with customers that arent problematic.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • oicidrazoicidraz Member Posts: 627 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    That's one thing I would like here, dev and players changing perceptions before they can make things worse.
  • angryspriteangrysprite Member Posts: 4,982 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Huh... I've read every post in this thread and not a single mention of DevTracker forum. The Devs communicate quite a bit. Some days are real slow or none at all and other days there is a flurry of activity.

    However, I think what people are forgetting is that module three is only a couple weeks away. The Devs are surely buried nose-deep into getting it ready because they are now on a time-limited final thrust. They don't have time to scour the forums to placate you. One Mod three is released they'll spend the following two weeks finding and fixing all the bug they missed.

    Once Mod three settles in, you'll see a lot of Dev contribution to the forum.

    It still won't be enough for many of the previous commenters, but those people won't be satisfied until the Devs start answering every thread. The amount of public commenting my the Devs being the right amount or not is entirely relative and subjective. In my want (note: I choose the word want, not opinion) the Devs would contribute just a bit more, at least in acknowledging some threads, if jot outright answering them.

    As it is right now, I believe they're doing a pretty good job as it is.
  • djarkaandjarkaan Member Posts: 883 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    when you have official staff making any comment on the official forums, that comment is going to generally be taken as an official statement. so most companies do not want staff making comments to the general public. if you've ever worked for a private company, they always want you to refer press to either PR or to the company's attorney or some specific person; they never want you making any statement as a representative of the company.


    Then where is this PR person? they could be posting on the forum, where is the communication team? this is what the issue is. Not the fact that the devs don't reply, I expect them to be busy but I also expect the company to hire someone to communicate with the customer. I rather have someone tell me they can't talk about it then complete silence.
  • melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    djarkaan wrote: »
    Then where is this PR person? they could be posting on the forum, where is the communication team? this is what the issue is. Not the fact that the devs don't reply, I expect them to be busy but I also expect the company to hire someone to communicate with the customer. I rather have someone tell me they can't talk about it then complete silence.

    any official announcement is provided through the community managers on the official website and through the forums.
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    While I really want the devs to be more interactive on the forums, I don't want them to be too submissive and start listening to the idiots crying about the emblem nerf
  • melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    skalt112 wrote: »
    plenty of games keep the playerbase informed. Take a look at warframe when it was in development. Weekly video blogs and q&a sessions. Free to play game. They faced the same liability issues as you have listed, and still chose to keep thier fans informed. The liability claim is a copout in my opinion.

    examples like this, it's hard to say whether you're talking about a closed beta environment where everyone with access to these discussions are under an NDA or if it's something else.

    neverwinter has weekly updates to the news blogs as well as what angrysprite mentioned, the dev tracker, which shows all dev activity on the forums. threads like this make it sound like PWE doesn't interact with the players at all.

    let's not forget that we used to have a live stream that occurred at least once a week, but we also just welcomed a new community manager who is getting up to speed and plans on continuing this tradition. recently, we had a live stream with the devs about module 3 and another one coming up this friday.
  • overddriveoverddrive Member Posts: 722 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    For christs sake, take a look at the whole preview forum and you'll see a ton of posts by devs reacting to the content of threads, and postings scads of very direct, spcific, non-vague information. Crush, for example, is probably one of the best, most interactive, developers I have run across in ten years of playing mmo's and being a forum junky.
    PanzerJäger HR Hybrid
    Jugger Conq GF
    ....
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    overddrive wrote: »
    For christs sake, take a look at the whole preview forum and you'll see a ton of posts by devs reacting to the content of threads, and postings scads of very direct, spcific, non-vague information. Crush, for example, is probably one of the best, most interactive, developers I have run across in ten years of playing mmo's and being a forum junky.

    This. Even when we don't like what they have to say, at least they are responding.

    Maybe I'm now spoiled having come from years of playing MMOs with no region-native dev teams, but I'm overall rather satisfied with the level of communication here.

    Not entirely satisfied with some of the design choices, but patient enough to support the game and see how things improve.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • skalt112skalt112 Member Posts: 1,089 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    examples like this, it's hard to say whether you're talking about a closed beta environment where everyone with access to these discussions are under an NDA or if it's something else.

    neverwinter has weekly updates to the news blogs as well as what angrysprite mentioned, the dev tracker, which shows all dev activity on the forums. threads like this make it sound like PWE doesn't interact with the players at all.

    let's not forget that we used to have a live stream that occurred at least once a week, but we also just welcomed a new community manager who is getting up to speed and plans on continuing this tradition. recently, we had a live stream with the devs about module 3 and another one coming up this friday.

    It was open beta, you can still watch the q&a sessions. And we are talking about unrestricted q&a. Respect for the players and the questions asked. In other games I have played , each class got a dev sponsor that answered questions spacifically aimed at that class on the class boards. Frequent questions did not go unanswered for months like they do here. Did they answer every question, of course not, but they also did not leave classes totally in the dark like they do here.
  • froszztfroszzt Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 284 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    They have the worst communication towards their players out of all games I've ever played in my life. I have sent tickets regarding various issues in-game without a reply. I have asked them countless of things on FB without a single reply. When really stupid decisions are made and not reworked in months, is it too much to ask if this stupid decision they made will be permanent or not?

    Like GWF getting GF powers. Obviously <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> beyond any belief. Been live for months now and no official statement about it being removed it reworked. GWF and some TR builds are really out of bounds and nothing is being done as far as I can tell. Sure a lot of people will claim that nothing is wrong, but these people are the very GWF/TR that are exploiting the flawed design.

    It's hard to even tell if a GWF is 12k or 16k, they are just such trains with TR slotted. Ever met a GWF that didn't try to hunt you down? I have not. They act like unkillable beasts because they know that they are in a lot of the cases. Who is the first class you see entering a point most of the time? TR or GWF 95% of the time. Sure they are supposed to, but if you have any experience with pvp then you know that they jump on the point with an attitude and not because it's the game mode domination.

    Ah whatever, I will just stop now. If something this obvious needs explaining then the game is doomed anyway.
  • overddriveoverddrive Member Posts: 722 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    froszzt wrote: »

    Like GWF getting GF powers. Obviously <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> beyond any belief. Been live for months now and no official statement about it being removed it reworked. GWF and some TR builds are really out of bounds and nothing is being done as far as I can tell. Sure a lot of people will claim that nothing is wrong, but these people are the very GWF/TR that are exploiting the flawed design.

    It's hard to even tell if a GWF is 12k or 16k, they are just such trains with TR slotted. Ever met a GWF that didn't try to hunt you down? I have not. They act like unkillable beasts because they know that they are in a lot of the cases. Who is the first class you see entering a point most of the time? TR or GWF 95% of the time. Sure they are supposed to, but if you have any experience with pvp then you know that they jump on the point with an attitude and not because it's the game mode domination.

    GF (in pvp) is a major force and to all of the classes I play, it is as bad as a gwf. It just needs a power on tab equal to the ther classes tab powers.

    Don't know how you cant tell the difference between a 12 or 16k gwf in pvp. On my gwf (14k), the difference is the 12k dies in one rotation, the 16k takes some more work. On my HR a 12k gwf is face-tankable. Maybe one of the easiest classes to kill.

    The game is broke to an extent, but it is also a really fun game. Or it wouldt be worth talking about here.
    PanzerJäger HR Hybrid
    Jugger Conq GF
    ....
  • tluceantlucean Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    froszzt wrote: »
    They have the worst communication towards their players out of all games I've ever played in my life. I have sent tickets regarding various issues in-game without a reply. I have asked them countless of things on FB without a single reply. When really stupid decisions are made and not reworked in months, is it too much to ask if this stupid decision they made will be permanent or not?
    If you use the tone of this posting, I can only assume why they don't answer you ...
    But sometimes there is an issue with tickets not resolving correctly, though I don't know how this happens.
    froszzt wrote: »
    Like GWF getting GF powers. Obviously <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> beyond any belief. Been live for months now and no official statement about it being removed it reworked. GWF and some TR builds are really out of bounds and nothing is being done as far as I can tell. Sure a lot of people will claim that nothing is wrong, but these people are the very GWF/TR that are exploiting the flawed design.
    GWF being able to use GF powers is working as intended, since this game is based on PnP 4E D&D, where both are just builds of the very same class.
    froszzt wrote: »
    It's hard to even tell if a GWF is 12k or 16k, they are just such trains with TR slotted. Ever met a GWF that didn't try to hunt you down?
    How can you slot Trickster Rogues? I have to use enchantments for that ...
    And I often meet other GWFs, though they mostly run away from me into the next mob group, sometimes I have problems to keep up, due to sprint :(
  • tluceantlucean Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    macjae wrote: »
    While this is true, they are not the same class in Neverwinter, since the core class features of GWF (unstoppable + sprint) are grossly more powerful than those of the GF (mark + dodge).
    Considerung the feedback in another thread one can easily say that Unstoppable is of course better than Mark, but Sprint is seen to be inferior by a good margin than Block (GFs block, they do not dodge btw).
    macjae wrote: »
    Iron Vanguard is better than Swordmaster, so there was better balance between the two builds when GF only had IV and GWF only had SM.
    Depends on your goal. Most GWF Destroyers go Swordmaster and most Sentinels use Iron Vanguard, which to me are entirely different concepts. So your statement as broad as you made it can only be wrong for the GWF ...
    I'm not that familiar with the GF to comment on their PP differences though.
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