Why do GWF have better everything over a DC?

irked01

Ok this blows my mind it really does. How can a company and group of highly intelligent devs manage to mess this up as bad as it is right now between these two classes?

In every single situation the GWF outperforms the DC

Their survivability in both PVE and PVP is much higher then a DC's which I find ironic seeing the DC is supposed to be the HEALING class. So not only does the GWF have better survivibility then the DC but their DPS output is 10x higher then a DC as well.

I don't understand why Cryptic/PE hates DC's so much.... Healing Depression, Righteousness which effectively neuters us and we have no dps output. (if we go heal spec) while a GWF can go tank spec and out-heal ANY damage we might do to them, and out-damage any healing we do to ourselves (this is just plain WRONG) let me say that again JUST PLAIN WRONG....

DC's need some serious balancing and or GWF's and other classes. However with it the way it is right now it is so biased and one-sided it makes me SICK.

morsitans

If you'd restricted it to PvP, then sure, but that's both because GWFs are better than everything PvP (some permaTRs aside), and because DCs are more or less worse than everything in PvP (some glass-cannon CWs aside).

But in PvE? I'm not so sure. I've seen some terrible, terrible GWFs, and I've seen some very, very good ones who nevertheless die a lot (because there's a fine line between "building determination optimally" and "dying"), but I've never found DC survivability to be particularly low. It's hard enough to get aggro, let alone die from it.

Also, if you're looking for team mitigation and heals, a GWF is not going to be your first port of call.

silverkelt

Irked, you probably coming from one of the other mmos, other mmos cater to tanks/healers, they are played the least and giving many shiny toys to want people to play them, as they are needed for the design content. (including making healers practically godlike in pvp worlds, I mean Ive been in the middle of 100 vs 100 open map battles and had my healers stand for 20 seconds before succumbing (usually have hitting all save skills ect, you go down, you then swap healing around and rezzes around to bring players up, usually the team that has the best combo of healers will win these epic matches, it takes a leader to call it out and rotate ect.) Here there is none of that.

Here.. you actually need neither the gwf or the cleric to run any pve content, both can be useful however.

If your running your DC thinking your beating most players 1vs 1 , your going to be . Cryptic clearly made this cleric as support only, if your running DO spec like me, its even worse , as your suvivablity has been severly limited. You will damage one of the least amounts in the game and your so called controls are nearly useless in pvp world (and pretty much in pve as well)

Its basically a support class, but with limited range buffs. If you play it well you can help a team dominate, however, it takes support from your team to do that.

There is no end sight on this, this is what cryptic wants apparently from this class, so either enjoy what it is, or move on to other classes /games.

Ive said my two cents in posts, I think it needs some major work as a class , but I dont think your going to see anything for the next 6 months to a year.

tyrtallow

It's pretty simple. The DC is not just a healing class, healing is really more of a side effect of what we do.
DCs are multipliers. The whole point of bringing a DC along is to improve the overall survivability/DPS potential of a party, as well guarantee easier/more fluid runs.
Bottomline is that a DC can even "kill" you without actually being there just by using abilities like Hallowed Ground. With Hallowed Ground up even a smaller group can easily overpower a larger group, +15% or so total damage -and- mitigation as well as healing (feated) can do that. For perspective, consider that a Perfect Vorpal increases your DPS by roughly 14% (vs none) given a crit rate of of around 50%. Yes, our daily (or rather, one of its effects) has the potential to trump Perfect Vorpal.

Obviously the devs do know what they're doing, because the day a DC can successfully, reliably out-survive a good GWF given the same conditions (or even do as much damage as your average DPS GWF) is the day the devs decided to (truly) mess up game balance.

As for the current state of PvP, why'd you think GWFs/HRs are getting the most major "rebalances" next expansion?

deathsremnant

tyrtallow wrote: »

It's pretty simple. The DC is not just a healing class, healing is really more of a side effect of what we do.
DCs are multipliers. The whole point of bringing a DC along is to improve the overall survivability/DPS potential of a party, as well guarantee easier/more fluid runs.
Bottomline is that a DC can even "kill" you without actually being there just by using abilities like Hallowed Ground. With Hallowed Ground up even a smaller group can easily overpower a larger group, +15% or so total damage -and- mitigation as well as healing (feated) can do that. For perspective, consider that a Perfect Vorpal increases your DPS by roughly 14% (vs none) given a crit rate of of around 50%. Yes, our daily (or rather, one of its effects) has the potential to trump Perfect Vorpal.

Obviously the devs do know what they're doing, because the day a DC can successfully, reliably out-survive a good GWF given the same conditions (or even do as much damage as your average DPS GWF) is the day the devs decided to (truly) mess up game balance.

As for the current state of PvP, why'd you think GWFs/HRs are getting the most major "rebalances" next expansion?

GWF are getting small changes to 1 tree, HRs are getting nerfed on their main abilities buffed on their lesser abilities...what "major" changes are you talking about?

To OP- Simple, because a GWF is fully constructed for pvp purposes it's a pvp class while the DC is useful in both Pvp and PVE but does not excel at either...Also the DC was not made to 1v1...

vorphied

deathsremnant wrote: »

To OP- Simple, because a GWF is fully constructed for pvp purposes it's a pvp class while the DC is useful in both Pvp and PVE but does not excel at either...Also the DC was not made to 1v1...

GWF has the potential to excel at PvE as well and can even exceed CW damage potential if fully specced for PvE DPS. I don't disagree with your statements otherwise, but it's hardly as if GWF experiences any kind of tradeoff for its PvP superiority. CW, GWF, and DC are sadly the PvE PUG holy trinity right now, and the DC is optional if the group is self-sufficient enough.

tyrtallow

You didn't know that one of the feats affected by that "small change" to the GWF tree is Student of the Sword, currently one of the most accessible GWF feats -and- also their strongest debuff? You must think that a 15-45% defense penalty is trivial. Considering how much ArPen good GWFs usually have, good luck with that.
You didn't know that Deep Gash is currently working in such a way that its benefiting from all sorts of unintended calculations and is ticking for massive amounts of damage? The way it currently works, if that GWF crit doesn't kill you Deep Gash will. It's even mentioned in one of Kaelac's calculations, I believe, that Deep Gash can account for as much as 25-65% GWF DPS.
You didn't know that two of the Hunter abilities affected are also two of their most damaging PvP abilities? Have you never actually fought a good Hunter Ranger using Split Shot and Fox Shift? How about two good Hunter Rangers using Split Shot/Fox Shift and spamming root abilities/Disruptive Shot?

Consider that atm GWFs can easily reach a wonderful compromise between extreme damage/survivability thanks to how Deep Gash/Student of the Sword are broken/extremely accessible.
Consider that the only other commonly used burst power that HRs have, Aimed Shot, can be countered with DoTs it so the overall effect of these changes is a nerf to the burst potential of HRs.
Are these really not major changes to you?

spani4rd

deathsremnant wrote: »

GWF are getting small changes to 1 tree, HRs are getting nerfed on their main abilities buffed on their lesser abilities...what "major" changes are you talking about?

The GWF changes aren't drastic, and shouldn't really change how GWF's play, but it will reduce their dmg output a bit if they wan't to reamin as tanky. As stated both Student of the Sword and Deep Gash are both very powerful first tier feats. I just lvled a GWF up to 60, leveled as a destroyer spec so I had Deep Gash from the start, but I picked up Student of the Sword as soon as I filled out the destroyer tree and I can atest to how good it is. Not to mention that Deep Gash scales directly based on Power which makes those ticks even bigger without much extra effort.

While I don't play HR at all the changes should be pretty significant. Actually from what my HR friends have told me the fixes are so big that most HR's are now using different builds on the test server. Unfortunately I know a few HR's who say they're going to quit in mod3 because of the changes to the class. Bit of a knee jerk reaction imo but nobody likes feeling weaker I guess.

@OP. GWF's really don't seem that out of balance anymore, a bit too much dmg for how tanky they can get but other than that they're not bad. For a 1 v 1 set up a GWF is actually a favorable mathcup for a cleric. You're not going to kill him by anymeans but you can stalemate them which essentially makes the GWF usless unless he goes to another node.
I'm not even going to bring PVE into this because they each have their own spot and purpose there and both are highly effective. For PVP though it's completely pointless the say that a GWF is better than a Cleric in all situations. I can think of many situations where a Cleric is more useful than a GWF. Most people just view the fact that if you aren't going to kill anybody you have no usefulness. Give me a good GWF to fight against another 2x GWF for example and I can pretty much gauarantee that we'll win, or one of them will leave once they realize they can't kill us

refracted0dawn

irked01 wrote: »

Ok this blows my mind it really does. How can a company and group of highly intelligent devs manage to mess this up as bad as it is right now between these two classes?

Perhaps because they are utterly incompetent, have absolutely no clue what Dungeons and Dragons actually is, do not really care what D&D/AD&D actually is and the money is absolutely pouring in anyway even though Neverwinter is still actually an alpha?

If I was WotC I'd revoke their licence due to the bad publicity and distorted view of 4E they are giving the game. ALL the trade marks and logos shold be removed from the product until it conforms to the SRD.

NWO Clerics have no equivalent of the Hold Person spell they had in First, Second AND Third edition AD&D, and yet a GWF - a WARRIOR, mark you - is able to cast pseudo-magickal effects that increases his size (like the old Wizard's Strength and Clerical Bull's Strength), makes him invulnerable to CC and allows him to Stun, Paralyse, Hold and Knock Prone a Cleric so all the buttons are greyed out and you can do NOTHING as you hammer the keys except watch your hp drain over 1.6 seconds until you are dead.

There is no way the Cleric is a Leader class in NWO.

I've only played since February, 2014, but I read that they got rid of the Cleric's Permanent Divine Astral Shield glitch.

SO WHEN ARE THEY GOING TO GET RID OF PERMANENTLY INVISIBLE ROGUES AND WARRIORS WHO CAN USE MAGICK?!?!?


There is no way the Cool Down of ANY Power should EVER be less than the Duration of the Power, even if you do a daft build like put all your points in INT.


And, incidentally, Bait and Switch is not a Rogue power - It is an Illusionist-Assassin power - it creates a magickal decoy, does it not. That is an Illusionist Shadow Magick spell if EVER I saw one!

And I've played and DM'd all editions of D&D and AD&D since 1978. So I think I have a vague idea what I am talking about.

~.~

vorphied

You'll drive yourself nuts if you try to hold NW (the game is not referred to as "NWO") up to the pen-and-paper originals. You have to accept that this game is an action MMORPG adaptation and enjoy it on its own merits. There is certainly room for improvement in a number of areas, and DC balance happens to be a concern of mine as well, but I couldn't care less about other classes' quasi-magical powers and whether or not they mesh with original D&D. Players desiring something closer to a D&D experience have some pretty nice tools in the Foundry, the freedom to actively roleplay, and the occasional inspired event like the surprisingly cool dice game CTA from a few weeks ago.

On a side note, I would love a version of Hold Person/Hold Monster or some of the other powerful CCs clerics are known for in the source material. Unfortunately, prone is by far the most powerful effect in PvP since it's unbreakable, but it would be something