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Nature Build PvP Thoughts
godlysoul2
Member Posts: 661 Bounty Hunter
Basically just looking for thoughts on a Mod 3 Nature PvP build with a focus on 1v1/point holding. The build revolves around the one move Oak Skin. Seeing as it gets a +150% healing buff in mod 3, it should be more viable in PvP. From testing, it appeared to heal ~450 per tick in PvE (= 225 per second in PvP). Also from testing in PvE the move appears to give a ~18% DR boost.
By going with a max CON roll and distributing the stats into CON/INT, it would be possible to achieve 100% uptime of Oak Skin. This would be a constant 18% DR and 225 HP per second (which could also be applied to any nearby teammates, but with -20% healing due to not having the nature feat).
Stats for the build (Post-Mod 3)
~1820 Regen
~1955 Defense
~1920 Recovery
~2000 Deflect
~33k+ HP
~2250 Arm Pen
These stats will be achievable with rank 60 artifacts and rank 9 enchants. This will also utilize the profound armor set bonus which will grant hp every deflect.
However, after running the numbers I would be losing ~24% melee damage by going with this build over the full combat route in addition to extra 12% deflect. Therefore, it is really a matter of if 18% DR and 225 HP per second with faster cooldowns + AP gain due to recovery and the potential to apply this buff to teamates outweigh the benefits of going DPS with slower cooldowns but 24% more damage and 12% more deflect. I plan to go with bilethorn enchant to help make up for damage using this build since it will be very low damage but have rapid stacking potential with moves like thorn ward, rapid shot, rapid strike, (possibly fox shift despite nerf?)
Let me know what you guys think.
EDIT: Apparently after testing today, I was only getting 350 ticks from oak skin on preview in PvE so I'm just going to go combat build instead.
By going with a max CON roll and distributing the stats into CON/INT, it would be possible to achieve 100% uptime of Oak Skin. This would be a constant 18% DR and 225 HP per second (which could also be applied to any nearby teammates, but with -20% healing due to not having the nature feat).
Stats for the build (Post-Mod 3)
~1820 Regen
~1955 Defense
~1920 Recovery
~2000 Deflect
~33k+ HP
~2250 Arm Pen
These stats will be achievable with rank 60 artifacts and rank 9 enchants. This will also utilize the profound armor set bonus which will grant hp every deflect.
However, after running the numbers I would be losing ~24% melee damage by going with this build over the full combat route in addition to extra 12% deflect. Therefore, it is really a matter of if 18% DR and 225 HP per second with faster cooldowns + AP gain due to recovery and the potential to apply this buff to teamates outweigh the benefits of going DPS with slower cooldowns but 24% more damage and 12% more deflect. I plan to go with bilethorn enchant to help make up for damage using this build since it will be very low damage but have rapid stacking potential with moves like thorn ward, rapid shot, rapid strike, (possibly fox shift despite nerf?)
Let me know what you guys think.
EDIT: Apparently after testing today, I was only getting 350 ticks from oak skin on preview in PvE so I'm just going to go combat build instead.
Post edited by godlysoul2 on
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Comments
It's hard to land but if you do, even on a GWF it will shred much of their health.
If you land it on you as an HR it's going to hurt even more.
From what I understand, Bilethorn was basically considered a trash enchantment until some people somewhat recently figured out how to start landing duelist's flurry, which was long considered unviable for pvp.
I'm not nature spec, but I don't think giving up everything for HP and the nature spec options will work out. You simply can't work someone like a rogue can, who has the luxury of infinite stealth if built for it.
You're thinking lots of dodges and health can sort of equate to perma-stealth, and it kind of does, but you're forgetting that rogues also have access to Shocking Execution. They only have to get someone to about 50% health and then 1 hit and they're dead. HR's have nothing like that, let alone a HP-centered nature HR.
That is not entirely true. The only reason bilethorn works for rogue is because they can rely on multiple low damage hits, which makes it more effective to take a set damage boost from weapon damage rather than to increase damage based on a multiple of each hit.
Split shot damage is getting nerfed which would make it benefit more from it, more tenacity is being added which will reduce the effectiveness of crits regardless, moves like rapid shot/rapid strike already do low fast damage and would benefit more from bilethorn, thorn ward is getting buffed but is still low, multiple hit damage over time which would benefit more from it than vorpal.
Looking at a video of a combat TR in PvP using a tank based build like I would be going for with similar arm pen values, it looks like the average damage (from skill damage, not all the extra fluff/hits that comes with feats + combat tree + fey thistle, ect.) it looks like the average damage is around 1500 per hit.
Looking at how my setup will be, I could say I get 7-8 crit from WIS, 2-3 crit from 1st feat, and lets say at best still 10 crit more from gear (but probably wont be that high focusing on defensive stats as much as I will be). Lets say ~20% crit (unless I am missing something) or ~30% crit (for melee) if I were to go with the melee tree. (Could get it up to around ~33% from gear if I were to go melee due to not investing in recovery).
To see how much extra damage P.Vorp would add (per hit):
20% crit (nature)
(1500)(.5)(.2) = 150
30% crit (melee)
(1500)(.5)(.3) = 225
Now with bilethorn. I'll use a base weapon damage of 1200 (Using ~ average wep dmg for dread weapon set). (23.5% Wep Damage every hit):
(.235)(950) = 282
To find the equivalent that would cause this for crit and vorpal:
(1500)(.5)(x) = 282 -> x = 37.6%
When you compare this to rogues, the reason it works so well with DF is because those hits are generally in this lower damage range as well for stealth based PvP builds. Even if I am missing extra crit bonus somewhere, (such as +5% crit from rogues in the party), nature build will still be just as effective with bilethorn as vorpal until I were to find at least ~17.6% more crit. (It is possible I may have missed some because it does seem low, but it definitely wont reach that high).
Let's not neglect the other benefits of bilethorn too though as far as draining stealth, faster dismounts, keeping people dismounted longer, and prolonging healing depression.
Ultimately though it doesn't matter if you lack spike damage or not if your survivability is high enough. Look back to GWF builds pre-nerfs/iron vanguard or GCTRL's (if I got the letters right) Cleric build. I see this build being a point holder able to do damage over time to kill like the old GWFs, but with more healing benefits, more stable defenses, more immunities/mobility, and the ability to apply a constant heal of time + mitigation to not just oneself but also to nearby teammates.
I do not intend to use this as a pure buff/support build rather than simply just going the route to maximize oak skin and then possibly using boar hide as well, but seeing as the build would need DPS I'd rather just keep it at oak skin and slot the best DPS/control moves I could use to give me more advantage 1v1.
Also, from preview it looked like oak skin was healing me ~450 per second (if I remember correctly) in PvE. In PvP this would equate to 225 per second. However, if you compare this to regen which applies a heal every 3 seconds, it would be like adding an additional 675 hp to each regen which is ~50% or more (at healing for your max regen, only this will always heal for this amount) in addition to gaining ~20% damage mitigation. This could also be applied to teammates as well. The ranged encounter of this move also is good damage for a damage based encounter with rooting which works perfectly with the survivability design that lacks DPS. And don't forget the ability to regain hp every deflect.
It doesn't matter anyway. I'll probably get a free respec next mod and the build conveniently works out exactly the same whether I go nature or combat except for offense slots silver -> azure and weapon enchant possibly bile -> vorpal so I'll give it a shot. The numbers look promising though if the oak skin buff goes through.
EDIT: For anyone interested in the numbers, they are slightly skewed as a result of bilethorn being affected by DR while the vorpal numbers were already affected by DR. One would also have to consider their arm pen when adding this in as well. Also, the average 1500 damage does not take into consideration the fact that vorpal bonus damage is applied separately than other damage modifiers, so in reality 50% of 1500 should be an overestimate of how much damage it would truly add. Overall the numbers still maintain roughly the same effect though. Something else to note though. When using a vorpal, your crit severity will be ~125%. However, due to tenacity, in reality that is only ~105 - 100%, which is basically saying at that point that adding 1% crit is the equivalent of adding 1% dmg. However, with the reworking of the power stat in mod 3, it will be much easier to get 1% dmg out of power than 1% crit when stacking power over crit. Therefore, I do believe it is best to go with a bilethorn or weapon damage based enchant in your weapon slot and then simply stack power for offense rather than waste investments into crit which will not provide as much damage output in comparison.
Plaguefire is as good or better at those things, and you'll get defense reduction on the target which helps the whole team.
Probably, but I'm still primarily building the character for 1v1/point holding rather than support, despite going a "support" defined tree. Bile would definitely be better for damage with how rapid the hits are going to be for 1v1. I don't know if it would work, but I found the guide earlier today of the dude who was running survivability nature build in PvP pre tenacity just fine until the healing depression nerf. Now that the healing capability will be higher again it seems like itd be viable. But yeah, I'll probably get a free respec with the new HR path and I'd be using the same gear with just slightly different enchants if I were to switch to combat, so I'll give it a shot. I'll take a look at plague fire though.
I just don't see myself hitting people that often to make it worthwhile in 1v1s. Normally I have to spend a lot of time dodging. I can get maybe 3 or 4 rapid shots on someone before it's better to use abilities or I have to dodge.
A rogue can sit in stealth and unload 8 (faster than rapid strike) knives at you without worrying about needing to dodge. He can also nail you with duelist's flurry, which hits you something like 10 times in a few seconds.
With only 3 or 4 rapid shots you're looking at not much damage added by bilethorn. Honestly I think a CW might get more use out of a bilethorn since the 3rd hit of magic missile hits 3 times, and you're not likely to see too many of them running around with it.
Just my 2 cents. Btw, I think a healing spec might be pretty good at point holding especially with high regeneration and the oaken skin buff in mod 3, but I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to dump everything (crit/power) to do it. You still actually want to be able to kill the people you're 1v1ing even if they can never kill you.
I see what you mean. Thanks