How to fix the CW problem

irked01

We all know (least those of us who are not in denial) that CW's are the most sought after class in this entire game, and the more you stack the faster instances go which hurts other classes. When you have 2-3+ geared CW's that know the content you also do not need a GF (gwf will do just fine and usually preferred) and sometimes not even a DC. Many people have stated CW's need a serious pve fix so that they are not wanted/needed 2-3 in a group and I agree.

Yet the biggest problem has been how do you do that without killing the class? Well that is easy actually all the components are already there they were just simple implemented wrong.

1: Spellstorm should be all about control with avg damage not like it is now with control and massive damage.

2: Master of Flame should be little control but very high DPS

Yet Master of Flames falls short in all areas when compared to Spellstorm and that in itself is the problem. I think Spellstorm damage should be reduced across the board with caps put on all AOE spells and perhaps tad bit longer cc timers. While the Fire path should have little control but is the a-typical glass cannon.

This will force players to choose and will also force groups to choose what do they want control with avg dps or little control and high dps (like it should have been from the moment the Flame path came out. I love the idea of a Fire mage but it simply falls short in everything behind Stormspell and this needs to be addressed and addressed correctly to make this a class that is should of been .

antovaras

Interesting viewpoint on how to 'fix' the problem...

skalt112

The dungeons need reworked, not so much the Cw's.

spongebob56

CWs are fine as is. People get confused and think them OP because of the Pain Giver chart. Dungeons need changed (ie more elites with cc resist). Temple of the Spider is a good template. Endless Consumption boon probably needs fixed to have a chance to proc too.

emilemo

irked01 wrote: »

We all know (least those of us who are not in denial) that CW's are the most sought after class in this entire game, and the more you stack the faster instances go which hurts other classes. When you have 2-3+ geared CW's that know the content you also do not need a GF (gwf will do just fine and usually preferred) and sometimes not even a DC. Many people have stated CW's need a serious pve fix so that they are not wanted/needed 2-3 in a group and I agree.

Yet the biggest problem has been how do you do that without killing the class? Well that is easy actually all the components are already there they were just simple implemented wrong.

1: Spellstorm should be all about control with avg damage not like it is now with control and massive damage.

2: Master of Flame should be little control but very high DPS

Yet Master of Flames falls short in all areas when compared to Spellstorm and that in itself is the problem. I think Spellstorm damage should be reduced across the board with caps put on all AOE spells and perhaps tad bit longer cc timers. While the Fire path should have little control but is the a-typical glass cannon.

This will force players to choose and will also force groups to choose what do they want control with avg dps or little control and high dps (like it should have been from the moment the Flame path came out. I love the idea of a Fire mage but it simply falls short in everything behind Stormspell and this needs to be addressed and addressed correctly to make this a class that is should of been .

On a 4 CW team, my GWF was used just to run to the last camp and die..repeatedly

rayrdan

nerf damages on cws, increase control on hr, drastically increase single target tr's damage.

and more important take lifesteal like there is no tomorrow

silverquick

irked01 wrote: »

Many people have stated CW's need a serious pve fix so that they are not wanted/needed 2-3 in a group and I agree.

Won't work, because even nerfing CWs will not suddenly and mysteriously make any other class wanted in mass mob dungeons.

On top of that, CWs already self nerf once they are down to just one or two strong mobs. Heck even 3. The more mobs there are, the higher the CW damage goes... the fewer the mobs there are... the less damage they do in comparison to other classes. So the real solution is to rework the dungeons so that Mass Mob encounters are not the ONLY dungeons you run.

CW damage can only be that way when you throw mass mobs at them. Otherwise its pretty below average.

This is the reason everyone screams about CWs being so underpowered in PvP but yet overpowered in PvE. Change the structure of the fights, it changes how well the CWs actually perform. ie... great on mass mobs... kind poor on single targets. This is directly controlled by the number of mobs and targets you throw at them.

Reduce the number, you reduce the need for them.

BUT... if you nerf the high end... you make them pretty crappy all around. On top of that, no one will be able to get through the mass mob infested dungeons because you just killed all crowd control.

Yet the biggest problem has been how do you do that without killing the class? Well that is easy actually all the components are already there they were just simple implemented wrong.

1: Spellstorm should be all about control with avg damage not like it is now with control and massive damage.

2: Master of Flame should be little control but very high DPS

You have it completely backwards.

Spellstorm has the damage multiplier that works per mob... MOF does not, it is designed around DoTs or... damage over time. Ie... it increases the more and more mobs you throw at them.

Spellstorm powers are completely designed around AoE damage and spike damage... MOF is designed around stacking DoTs.

In a nutshell, Spellstorm is good at mass mobs and spike damage, MoF is designed for single target and AoE style DoTs.

Thats how the powers and setups REALLY work.

Secondly....

Control Powers in the sense you are speaking of are all Single Target powers. Not AoE powers, ergo... no Nukes, no crowd control.

IE... all the Choke/Freeze/Control powers in the sense you are speaking of are... single target. The CW is a misnomer, it never had AoE crowd control in the sense you are speaking of. It only had high damage AoE combined with added 2-3 second stuns or Prones on the AoEs. That's all it ever had.

Translation: Your fix means no AoE crowd control... ergo... no one makes it through the dungeons.

Yet Master of Flames falls short in all areas when compared to Spellstorm and that in itself is the problem. I think Spellstorm damage should be reduced across the board with caps put on all AOE spells and perhaps tad bit longer cc timers. While the Fire path should have little control but is the a-typical glass cannon..

Not really...

MoF is great at what it does. But it is NOT a mass mob spike damage nuker... its passives are all DoT related, not spike damage related. Those are great on Boss Mobs. Ergo... its the Spellstorm that was designed around nuking mass mobs.

So short of Swapping the name MoF to the Spellstorm tree, and Spellstorm to the MoF tree, your fix doesn't work. Because the both of them are the complete opposite of what you want them to be.

Heck if you wanted to just swap the name... then you could achieve what you want. But the way they're designed, ie the entire tree feats, means you may as well just play a spellstorm, OR just swap the spell trees entirely or rather... just the name for appearance.

wimpazoid

A bit of hijack, can I ask the devs how can they fix the TR problem? It has become something of an exclusive PVP class, so why offer it for PVE?

TRs have been nerfed until they have barely any utility in team content PVE wise and is generally unwanted in dungeons and guaranteed exclusion from T2.5 dungeons LFGs. Queueing for dungeons can also result in party members leaving on seeing TRs. It's at a point where it doesn't matter how much AoE DPS CWs and GWFs can contribute in teams, TRs just will not be seen as a good pick up. Reducing the DPS of CWs/GWFs however, will perhaps make the GF more in demand as a buffer, but TRs still not so much.

The only mechanic and viable build for TRs now is stealth, perma stealth to solo dungeons which defeats the purpose of team dynamics, which is mostly what TR players have degraded to. Any other build has their stealth provide only limited utility, even worse in teams on boss fights where a large number of adds' AoEs triggered by teammates greatly reduce survivability and stealth to non functionality. No other class has their class mechanic provide so little functionality unless you build heavily for it.

Personally, my year old TR did not go the perma stealth route, so I can't solo dungeons, but neither do I find myself on T2.5 teams so the gap in utility is growing as content, difficulty, and power creep grows. So instead of continuous nerfing of TR because of PVP, perhaps it's time to review the class as a whole. Sadly, the HR is a better TR, than the TR, and the TR may actually be better served as a subset or paragon path of the HR.

ironzerg79

In a game where encounters are designed to throw as many mobs as possible at a group, the class that can damage the most mobs at one time appears to be the most effective. This is further exasperated by people playing 15k and 16k+ GS CW's and blowing through content that they're way over-geared for. When the content becomes trivial, glass cannons are going to shine.

But here's the rub. If they nerf CW's, as long as the game requires large amounts of AOE, then people will continue to bring more CW's. When the AP generation of CW's was nerfed a few patches ago, people started bringing MORE CW's to dungeons, not fewer.

Parse encounters like Fulminorax or Valindra and you'll see much great parity among the classes than you would think. Throw a thousand weak minions at a group, and you'll see a totally different picture.

Ultimately though, people won't believe the classes are balanced until everyone ends up with exactly the same total damage done at the end of a dungeon, a stat which is often times misleading.

reiwulf

The best solution would be indeed to change dungeon mechanics, to have fewer mobs but stronger and cc resistant ones. (not ALL of them, but to have more of those) and give them and dungeon bosses really nasty attacks that could oneshot non tanks. That way, CW's would not be so much more useful than the rest of the classes, that way TR's would shine in single target damage, that way GF's would shine as tanks.
Probably there still would have to be some class mechanics change to adapt to this. But I trust this is the main problem at the moment.

pointsman

Dungeon design drives the choice of party composition.

You take 3 CWs to CN because it's an add-fest.

You don't have to take 3 CWs to Karrundax (and probably shouldn't, at least for an at-level team), because of lots of semi-immune mobs.

You definitely don't want to take 3 CWs to Valindra's Tower.

Nerfing CW damage output won't change the *need* for mass mob control. It will only slow everything down, and for at-level or undergeared team, make that content nearly impossible.

If you just nerf CW damage output, then you'll just have 5 CW teams with stacked life steal.

lewstelamon01

Guys, we welcome feedback, but not in the form of disguised "nerf this class" threads. Please keep your feedback constructive and craft your arguments in the terms of adjustments rather than asking "too overpowered?"