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Anti TR measures revisited

jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
edited May 2014 in The Wilds
Sorry, I know there was another thread but damned if I could find it.

Anyway, just came off a mammoth pug pvp match. For the whole game there was a TR on 3, perma stealth build. Just stayed up there and beat off/killed anyone who came up. I must have fought him or her 5 or 6 times. He killed me a few times, and I just gave up for the other few, and limped off with about 5hp left to my name.

I used fox spam, lantern, roots, everything. Nothing worked.

However, the last time, I just got very dumb and spammed aimed strike all over the node. And it worked, AS is semi self aiming within a short range, and inflicts a hefty bleed 1 to 2k per tick. I just kept hitting them with it, seemed to screw up his stealth, because he never disappeared on me till he finally keeled over and died.

So, there you have it HRs, perma stealth plus aimed strike spam equals dead rogue. Enjoy. One to one anyway.
No idea what my toon is now.
Post edited by jonkoca on
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    tang56tang56 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Try using thorn ward. Area denial, locates them in stealth and applies a stacking debuff.
    RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
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    degraafinationdegraafination Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Thorn Ward is the best for HRs, as tang56 stated. And it's getting a buff come Module 3.

    Try Thorn + Bull Charge + Fox Shift. It'll mess them up nicely.
    PWP_zpsf8f711ce.jpg
    Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
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    rittzbitzrittzbitz Member Posts: 116 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    Thorn ward does not hit them in stealth.
    rittzbitz wrote: »
    The way I see it, stealth TRs, even on the high-end, aren't as bad as they're made out. Just inexperienced people playing versus better players with better gear. There is definitely finesse required to fighting one 1v1, but not nearly as much as a BiS Sentinel GWF.

    I'd say you can divide them into three types, though all share the same strategy to beat them. The ones running Path of the Blade (PotB), the ones with Lashing Strike, and the ones with Bait and Switch (BaS).

    PotB / Bile is probably the nastiest. A large radius DoT combined with the DF / Bile is a large amount of sustained damage from a hard to locate target. You need someone who can kite the flurry while sustaining the PotB long enough to kill them without dying from Shocking Execution (SE).

    Lashing TRs *should* wait until their stealth is about to end before attempting to hit you with it, to avoid messing up any semblance of a rotation that they have. Just dodge it and regenerate through the CoS. You win

    BaS is just a distraction TR. They sacrificed damage for utility, have a brain and some regen. Anyone should be able to live vs one.

    To understand how to beat them, you must first know how they operate. The skills every TR (good ones) will use are Impossible to Catch (ItC) and Shadow Strike (SS). When you approach a TR, they will either ; use PotB then go into stealth, use stealth then approach you for a lashing, while throwing daggers (Cloud of Steel (CoS)), or just straight up stealth (BaS) and begin their CoS or Duelist Flurry (DF) rotation.

    Feated, and in PvP gear, a rogue will have ~10 seconds of stealth, with dodge rolls. It is within this time frame you have to locate the rogue on the node.

    Move in criss-crossing patterns or around the perimeter. If he's using CoS, follow the sound and trajectory of the daggers to his location. If he's using PotB, he'll be in the center of it's AoE radius. If he's preparing a DF, he'll likely be in the center of the node, attempting to land the third frame of the animation.

    Once you find him, immediately land one and ONLY one control spell on him. EVERY class has one (unless you are a TR) that they are likely to use in a PvP setting. This will force the ItC. If used from stealth they are immune to all damage, if used outside they have 100% deflection chance and control immunity. It has a duration of 5 seconds. During this time most rogues will use their SS to refill stealth, or maybe attempt a DF rotation.

    Once ItC expires they will dodge and re-enter stealth, starting the rotation over. Most rogues wont dodge on time after ItC ends, and you can hit them with a CC and kill them there and then. The ones that do you have to find them on the node again within ~15 seconds before ItC comes off cooldown again. It usually has to be repeated a few times but after forcing ItC's and SS's before schedule you eventually screw the timing and get larger windows of opportunity to kill them.

    Don't get hit by flurries, make them waste their ItC and dodges.
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    js3bjs3b Member Posts: 368 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    i find fox shift and constructing arrow be very effective againts tr :)
    Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision


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    nem3zissnem3ziss Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    'Thorn ward does not hit them in stealth.'


    Yes, it does 0_o im TR and fighting with HR with TW is pain in the rear, because i need to slot Tenacious to stay in stealth and i dont have enough run speed to get to them fast. Its always hard fight if you are 1v1 against HR with TW.
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    rittzbitzrittzbitz Member Posts: 116 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    nem3ziss wrote: »
    'Thorn ward does not hit them in stealth.'


    Yes, it does 0_o im TR and fighting with HR with TW is pain in the rear, because i need to slot Tenacious to stay in stealth and i dont have enough run speed to get to them fast. Its always hard fight if you are 1v1 against HR with TW.

    Well, you generally run tenacious anyway, so I don't see how that's a problem. I'll have to test it again, I'm pretty sure it just displays the animation with no damage.
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    rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    Hey man you are using your Lantern wrong then.

    All the self-proclaimed perma-TRs here say it works and you just have to learn to play.

    Anyway, cryptic is already discussing about lessening DPS while in stealth or a faster depletion of the stealth meter when attacking so at least they are doing something right.
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    spongebob56spongebob56 Member Posts: 234 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    rashylewizz wrote: »
    Anyway, cryptic is already discussing about lessening DPS while in stealth or a faster depletion of the stealth meter when attacking so at least they are doing something right.

    I hope that isn't their solution. I don't like perma stealths but the idea I heard floated was about the person they attack seeing them a short time but they would still be considered in stealth. Other players wouldn't see them and their ability bonuses for being in stealth would still be applied. The only nerf to damage should be a fix to Shocking Execution. These types of changes would make perma stealths still viable builds AND give players ability to fight back. I imagine you would also see far less permas and more of a mix DPS and stealth type TR build.
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    jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    rashylewizz wrote: »
    Hey man you are using your Lantern wrong then.

    All the self-proclaimed perma-TRs here say it works and you just have to learn to play.

    Anyway, cryptic is already discussing about lessening DPS while in stealth or a faster depletion of the stealth meter when attacking so at least they are doing something right.

    Lol at the l2p. Yes the lantern worked, but it was the whole "killing the guy" after that was the problem. AS spam did both. Thorn ward slotting, okay, but then I've just lost a multipurpose encounter for one thats pretty useless except against that one guy, whereas aimed shot / strike is always on my at will to go list.
    No idea what my toon is now.
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    todesfaelletodesfaelle Member Posts: 1,370 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Is it a node 1 vs. 1? If yes, Split the Sky is particularly scary. Rogues that use PotB or Cloud of Steel would be hitting themselves for each hit they deal to you and/or your allies as long as they are inside that red zone you made on the node, trying to contest it. Us Rogues will always do our best to contest the node, because it's our job to do so. It's either we wait for Split the Sky's duration to run out but when feated, Split the Sky will run longer than our Stealth. It will also force TR's to go out of Stealth early by getting damaged and popping ITC since the Slow effect of STS will put the TR in danger, because Fox Shift will be easier to land when we're slower.
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    overddriveoverddrive Member Posts: 722 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    IMO TR and HR are fairly evenly matched 1v1. How you manage to both dodge and spam as is beyond me, but I'll have to try it. Normally I can survive till they come out of stealth, then I disruptive shot/constrict, rush, fox shift and they are dead. The hard ones I'll slot split the sky but I hate doing that and losing constricting/steel breeze. SB doing some aoe damage (I am pretty sure it damages in-stealth tr's), but more importantly it refills stamina and provides for essentially infinite dodges.
    PanzerJäger HR Hybrid
    Jugger Conq GF
    ....
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    jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    overddrive wrote: »
    IMO TR and HR are fairly evenly matched 1v1. How you manage to both dodge and spam as is beyond me, but I'll have to try it. Normally I can survive till they come out of stealth, then I disruptive shot/constrict, rush, fox shift and they are dead. The hard ones I'll slot split the sky but I hate doing that and losing constricting/steel breeze. SB doing some aoe damage (I am pretty sure it damages in-stealth tr's), but more importantly it refills stamina and provides for essentially infinite dodges.

    I don't dodge much, my defence is stupid high, plus I'm a potion addict. :) so I can take a few TR rotations on the chin while I'm trying to stab him to death. PvP, brings out the best in people...?

    We seem to run with the same loadout, though I swap constrict for hindering for more damage against gwfs. Post nerf, I dunno, I rolled a CW. Though I feel bad about abandoning my first class. Let's see what black ice brings.
    No idea what my toon is now.
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    overddriveoverddrive Member Posts: 722 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    jonkoca wrote: »
    I don't dodge much, my defence is stupid high, plus I'm a potion addict. :) so I can take a few TR rotations on the chin while I'm trying to stab him to death. PvP, brings out the best in people...?

    We seem to run with the same loadout, though I swap constrict for hindering for more damage against gwfs. Post nerf, I dunno, I rolled a CW. Though I feel bad about abandoning my first class. Let's see what black ice brings.

    ah...I rely really heavily on dodge. My build is almost no defense/all offense and my defense enchant slots are all silver/deflect. My goal for defense is to be targeted successfully only about 2 of 10 tries and to actually be hit only once of every 10 times I am successfully targeted. I am sure this wont fly in top tier pvp but I am having fun wreaking havoc in lower and mid tier pvp for now.

    Post nerf please dont abandon your hr, what will nubs like me have as an example for how to properly play the class if the better current hrs reroll?
    PanzerJäger HR Hybrid
    Jugger Conq GF
    ....
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    goldheartgoldheart Member Posts: 236 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Find good party. You can do it in the way 1 vs 1 but this is not the main idea of Domination.
    If you are with PUG call someone to help you. Or just wait someone other to go and run with him.
    Or just change your combo with something that work.
    DS 3 sec visible TR ofc you must use this skills as finisher not for opener, if you cannot kill him few times = do not go on this node. Simple.

    At all you need PVP items + good enchant if you want to be viable in PVP. This games show that only with skill you cannot do much but yes you need and skill. (especially vs perma TR)
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    jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I've played a few more games where the same situation / outcome occured over the last few days. Wasn't just a one off.
    No idea what my toon is now.
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    dustintheclouddustinthecloud Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    jonkoca wrote: »
    Lol at the l2p. Yes the lantern worked, but it was the whole "killing the guy" after that was the problem. AS spam did both. Thorn ward slotting, okay, but then I've just lost a multipurpose encounter for one thats pretty useless except against that one guy, whereas aimed shot / strike is always on my at will to go list.

    Thorn ward useless?? if u want to 1 vs 1/2 any class on any node that they have to contest, they have to stand in your thorn ward radius, that means consistent damage+debuff. if they go out of the node, then its ur win, becoz u gaining points on the node, even if its their node , and u the one contesting if they go out its still ur win, becoz u will cap it in some time.

    Thorn ward its 1 of the best encounters of hr for pvp....
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    oicidrazoicidraz Member Posts: 627 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    dustinthecloud wrote: »
    Thorn ward useless?? if u want to 1 vs 1/2 any class on any node that they have to contest, they have to stand in your thorn ward radius, that means consistent damage+debuff. if they go out of the node, then its ur win, becoz u gaining points on the node, even if its their node , and u the one contesting if they go out its still ur win, becoz u will cap it in some time.

    Thorn ward its 1 of the best encounters of hr for pvp....

    But the Thorn Ward range isn't so big and the melee is a wasted space, for me Marauder's/Fox/Constricting Vines are the most usefull Encounters for HR in PvP, im not going to change one of them for Thorn Ward...
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    jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Eh, thornward. A bit situational. And not enough damage to use in pvp much beyond supporting the other guys, and pi@@ssing people off. Just my opinion.
    No idea what my toon is now.
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    overddriveoverddrive Member Posts: 722 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    Totally agree about the relative usefulness of thornward, after playing my first hundred or so matches as an HR at lvl 60, and sowly changing my mind. The only time they seem really effective is if there are like 3 HRs and they are being stacked. That can be just brutal. But just 1....I know that HR is probably switching out a control encounter for that TW, which means I can constrict him>marauders rush through his thornward taking little damage, foxshift, steel breeze him and then he is probably dead and the thornward goes away. THAT is what thornward makes me do vs the opposing hr- kill him immediately. And HRs can be easy to kill for another HR.

    A thornward that STUCK to another player, like conduit of ice on tab for cw...now THAT would be some ****s and giggles.
    PanzerJäger HR Hybrid
    Jugger Conq GF
    ....
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    tang56tang56 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    overddrive wrote: »
    Totally agree about the relative usefulness of thornward, after playing my first hundred or so matches as an HR at lvl 60, and sowly changing my mind. The only time they seem really effective is if there are like 3 HRs and they are being stacked. That can be just brutal. But just 1....I know that HR is probably switching out a control encounter for that TW, which means I can constrict him>marauders rush through his thornward taking little damage, foxshift, steel breeze him and then he is probably dead and the thornward goes away. THAT is what thornward makes me do vs the opposing hr- kill him immediately. And HRs can be easy to kill for another HR.

    A thornward that STUCK to another player, like conduit of ice on tab for cw...now THAT would be some ****s and giggles.
    I love thornward for node contesting. Vs a TR, GWF or GF it's outstanding. Against CW's and other HR's I would usually prefer to slot constricting and I'll change as the game develops.
    RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
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    overddriveoverddrive Member Posts: 722 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    tang56 wrote: »
    I love thornward for node contesting. Vs a TR, GWF or GF it's outstanding. Against CW's and other HR's I would usually prefer to slot constricting and I'll change as the game develops.

    I used to switch up encounters, using thornward almost mainly vs TR's. I am really in for the quick kill though and constricting works so well for me as part of the complete ranged/stance shift/combat rotation, that it is really hard (for me) to justify using anything else in that last slot. For me, if I can't take out that permastealth tr WITHOUT thornward or split the sky, I am not playing as well as I should be. Vs other classes, especially the tank classes...I just dont see it being that effective. It seems like I can hold a node/kill any other class 1v1 with a combination of constricting, dodges, and stance switches. What do you NOT slot to fit thronward in?
    PanzerJäger HR Hybrid
    Jugger Conq GF
    ....
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    tang56tang56 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    overddrive wrote: »
    I used to switch up encounters, using thornward almost mainly vs TR's. I am really in for the quick kill though and constricting works so well for me as part of the complete ranged/stance shift/combat rotation, that it is really hard (for me) to justify using anything else in that last slot. For me, if I can't take out that permastealth tr WITHOUT thornward or split the sky, I am not playing as well as I should be. Vs other classes, especially the tank classes...I just dont see it being that effective. It seems like I can hold a node/kill any other class 1v1 with a combination of constricting, dodges, and stance switches. What do you NOT slot to fit thronward in?

    I don't use marauders.
    RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
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    overddriveoverddrive Member Posts: 722 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    tang56 wrote: »
    I don't use marauders.

    Do you shift stances much? I have a hard time imagining not using marauders.
    PanzerJäger HR Hybrid
    Jugger Conq GF
    ....
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    tang56tang56 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    overddrive wrote: »
    Do you shift stances much? I have a hard time imagining not using marauders.

    I shift stances to put up buffs, put down thorn/constricting or just to keep up the buffs from Agile Combatant and Nature's Enhancement. I stay in melee stance as much as possible.
    RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
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    hamletswordshamletswords Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,320 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    tang56 wrote: »
    I love thornward for node contesting. Vs a TR, GWF or GF it's outstanding. Against CW's and other HR's I would usually prefer to slot constricting and I'll change as the game develops.

    It's great against TRs, although sometimes you don't really need it since fox shift finds them so easily. Against GFs and GWFs, I'd really prefer boar rush to prone them. Thorn ward just gives them free determination to GWFs as far as I can tell.
    My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
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    overddriveoverddrive Member Posts: 722 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    tang56 wrote: »
    I shift stances to put up buffs, put down thorn/constricting or just to keep up the buffs from Agile Combatant and Nature's Enhancement. I stay in melee stance as much as possible.

    The more I play HR the more I find myself being in combat stance than not, but honestly I have not wrapped my head around basing a rotation mainly on combat stance with ranged as an alt. Thornward makes huge sense looking at it that way.
    PanzerJäger HR Hybrid
    Jugger Conq GF
    ....
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    tarmelfintarmelfin Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 38
    edited April 2014
    you can NOT fight with an enemy that you can not even see or "feel".
    yes this is TR. Everyone suggest to do that when you "see" a TR or do that when you encounter...
    TR's not comes to you every time your angle of look... when you notice them already your hp's half or more is gone. this is not about being experienced or well geared or masterd the mechanichs.
    This is about very basic truth "you can NOT fight with an enemy that you can not even see or "feel".
    "in my opinion" Trickster rouge is not "fair" class for neverwinter. if you play assassins creed it's ok or crysis still ok.
    lol even badazz sam fisher's have not an ability like invisibility.
    i can kill every 6 or 7 of 10 tr but it's not gives me fun. frankly i hate to fight against them. like i said it's not fair class for neverwinter "imho"
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    goldheartgoldheart Member Posts: 236 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I found this today and the TR is one of the best in server (as some of ppl comment on our forum)
    So enjoy and learn what to do vs TR.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAixMbFKHHs

    P.S. @tarmelfin I am agree with you there is not much fun against TR nvm do I kill him or die.
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    overddriveoverddrive Member Posts: 722 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?650551-Fighting-Tough-Nut-HR

    That is a link to a thread in the tr section about how much of a problem HR's are for trs. Pretty much all you need to know about how to fight a tr as an hr is right there.
    PanzerJäger HR Hybrid
    Jugger Conq GF
    ....
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    oicidrazoicidraz Member Posts: 627 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    goldheart wrote: »
    I found this today and the TR is one of the best in server (as some of ppl comment on our forum)
    So enjoy and learn what to do vs TR.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAixMbFKHHs

    P.S. @tarmelfin I am agree with you there is not much fun against TR nvm do I kill him or die.

    You don't use Aimed Shot for PvP?
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