[Suggestion] Class Balance

arsonall82

Now, I'm not going to say that I've fully fleshed out my thought on this, but the discussion comes up often with my guild mates about how the classes are changing in each patch release, and the first one that seems to come up is the CW, for which I'm proposing something that I think may spark some discussion:

We know that most classes have limits to their AoE effects: this is typically a 5 mob limit, you can knock down a max of 5 mobs/affect this or that. Some may hypothesize that CWs will eventually get this same treatment, meatball only affecting 5 mobs, or singularity only damaging 5 mobs just doesn't sound at all like a reasonable "nerf" for a class specializing in control. We all know that that's absolutely needed in the massive mob control for survivability.

but what if, because it is a CONTROL WIZARD, that the amount of mobs affected directly by your control powers affect the strength of their powers?

For instance, the power may be reduced from what you see currently, but with a "for every mob affected by singularity, add 0.25% damage for 5 seconds" ( I know that there are already some powers this way, what I'm suggesting is that this becomes MORE prominent, thus creating MANY options for how to build a CW, not just meatball, sing, chill strike, repeat. this will create a synergy with actually controlling mobs, and would reduce PvP mass DPS inequalities (obviously, I haven't the slightest clue what an appropriate modifier would be, so just assume that it's the principle of the synergy more than a nerf of damage).

This could extend further towards all other classes, making what they specialize in the crux of what creates their power. GWFs seem to be on this trail, where the more enemies you hit with AoEs, the more damage is added, but what other things can be done to other classes to increase viability across PvE and PvP that create both modes equalized without making PvP balanced while making PvE nerfed? paragon paths play an important role here - there should be clear advantages to the paragon path, further than just 2 or 3 skills that are swapped, but the entire 30+ path different. Meatball only available on one path, etc. With the ability to soon be able to get all powers offered to max potency, we need more of a reason to specialize on more than just DPS.

With GWF and GF, the primary source of their power/damage should come from the building of these stacks, either damage absorbing or damage dealing, The more damage a GWF deals, the more defense they get, while GF is, the more damage they absorb, the more damage they get. These naturally have limits to them, so that a full DPS build GWF needs to be skilled to avoid the initial attacks in order to survive, after maybe 5 attacks, they begin building power. The GF can only protect themselves for so long, defending too long will lose the stacks (you can't endlessly build damage stacks).

A HR can gain more movement/dodge for every single target they hit (which with the lowered split shot damage, doesn't become overly OP) being a hybrid class, the synergy of changing stance is a great factor to work off of, and I think that those feats could be expanded. I think that a lot of the reasoning for suggesting the movement/dodge is based on the amount of aggro HR seems to get in PvE, so maybe the difference between the 2 stances offer different synergies, lost upon switching stance. On my GWF, I cannot, no matter how hard I try, keep aggro off of the HR and cleric (probably because he's my perpetual health machine, sacrificing damage for defense); if they had more than just forest ghost to remove aggro in PvE, a skilled HR can drop aggro appropriately.

Trickster Rogues, now I'm sure I'm in the minority (based on the PvP QQing I see) but I believe that stealth should be un touched, but with one minor change. When in stealth, a party member (on same team) can see the TR, but to enemies, they are invisible and untargetable. I suggest that they keep the untargetability, but drop the invisibility (all players can see a TR, just not monsters in PvE). This should give PvP QQers a better time trying to drop AoEs to lower the stealth gauge, but direct attacks (the big hitters) are still not possible - HR will use split shot, obviously, but the drop in stealth shouldn't have too much effect, or adjust to allow maybe a number of hits as opposed to damage. ITC can save a TR from AoE control, as it does now, but with a skilled player, I wonder how this would play out.

DCs seem to have some purpose how they are, but I'm sure that there is something good that can be done for them, maybe stacking HP regen (astral seal (not shield) stacking, etc), or stronger divinity powers - lasting longer or something (I've not leveled my DC that far yet, I'm not sure how their divinity meter functions in end game)

So in this sense, what are some interesting synergies that you think will make changes to how a class functions that can be changed to balance PvP while allowing the class to stay viable in PvE?

ordensmarschall

Instead of continually trying to balance the classes, why don't we worry about the synergies of the classes working with each other. That is the point of having a group of characters, not how does each individual perform, but how well do they work together. You should be afraid of a high level wizard, he is supposed the baddest dude on the block, but if that fighter/thief gets in close, goodnight Irene, he is going to get whacked hard. Rather than worry about each individual DPS, how is that cleric going to help the ranger take out the most monsters? Stop worrying about character balance and concentrate on group balance.

emilemo

"DPS build GWF needs to be skilled to avoid the initial attacks in order to survive, after maybe 5 attacks, they"

After 5 attacks from equal geared players in PVP, a Destroyer GWF is either unstoppable/close to dead or dead. Just sayin

emilemo

ordensmarschall wrote: »

Instead of continually trying to balance the classes, why don't we worry about the synergies of the classes working with each other. That is the point of having a group of characters, not how does each individual perform, but how well do they work together. You should be afraid of a high level wizard, he is supposed the baddest dude on the block, but if that fighter/thief gets in close, goodnight Irene, he is going to get whacked hard. Rather than worry about each individual DPS, how is that cleric going to help the ranger take out the most monsters? Stop worrying about character balance and concentrate on group balance.

Finally I see some light lol. That right there is what it should be all about. Most if not all the grief and nerfs to classes originate from PVP and the so called 'balancing' is by definition wrong. You cant expect a cloth wearing caster to headbutt with a plate armor melee specialist and survive. Instead of thinking about how to change another class so your own can beat them face to face how about playing your own role. Kite them, harass them from max range, make them run to you, dont just come to them. Use your own melee mates to tank for you. There can never be balance in PVP.

williep30

emilemo wrote: »

Finally I see some light lol. That right there is what it should be all about. Most if not all the grief and nerfs to classes originate from PVP and the so called 'balancing' is by definition wrong. You cant expect a cloth wearing caster to headbutt with a plate armor melee specialist and survive. Instead of thinking about how to change another class so your own can beat them face to face how about playing your own role. Kite them, harass them from max range, make them run to you, dont just come to them. Use your own melee mates to tank for you. There can never be balance in PVP.

This x1000. People want "buffs" or "nerfs" so their class can compete against other classes. Id prefer a group balance over "waaah, nerf this guy so I can kill him easy" any time.

proneification

emilemo wrote: »

You cant expect a cloth wearing caster to headbutt with a plate armor melee specialist and survive.

You can however expect the ranged class blasting the melee to death with magics and kiting him forever. This is possible in many other games I played, yet not here, where my GWF or GF usually laughs at the measly damage the ranged classes deal, and their lack of survivability. HRs are better here, but CWs are quite bad, as a CW owner myself I cannot help feeling bad when I kill players that I know to be extremely good, yet their class gives them 0 chances against me.

arsonall82

ordensmarschall wrote: »

Instead of continually trying to balance the classes, why don't we worry about the synergies of the classes working with each other. That is the point of having a group of characters, not how does each individual perform, but how well do they work together. You should be afraid of a high level wizard, he is supposed the baddest dude on the block, but if that fighter/thief gets in close, goodnight Irene, he is going to get whacked hard. Rather than worry about each individual DPS, how is that cleric going to help the ranger take out the most monsters? Stop worrying about character balance and concentrate on group balance.

I feel like no one read the post, or I proposed it wrong, perhaps if I define the key word I used numerous times:
SYNERGY: the interaction of elements that when combined produce a total effect that is greater than the sum of the individual elements

This is the exact things I'm talking about, it was never about singular buffs/nerfs, but SYNERGY - group performance and "greater together than alone".

Maybe having the defender (GF) getting buffs from the same mechanic that recognizes "tower defended" but applied to party members. In other words, if a monster was attacking the HR and the GF punted it, he'd get a buff.

If the cleric heals an actively attacked ally, the heal is more potent.

Unfortunately, your descriptions of group play have little to no actual examples, so you're just more of the same "force class A to play with Class B" like how the Queue system currently works (that's the major component to the long wait times we experience)