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Armor pen is required for max effectiveness of some debuffs (HP, HV, PF/Terror/EE)
theosymphany
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Update: For the calculations here we are focusing on the attacker stats vs debuffed mob. The armor penetration discussion is in regard to the attacker for his personal damage, and not that of the debuffer, unless you happen to be looking at damage from your debuffs, in which case ArP does matter.
Just want to share some recent investigations into debuff percentages. The follow applies to PvE only, in PvP they simply reduce target defense as described on tooltip.
Defense debuff multipliers are usually the ones that 'reduces' defense by X' in their description, and therefore their effect can vary depending on the mob's damage resistance stat. However, because PvE mobs don't have defense, the game substitutes damage resistance (DR) in those calculations. These abilities will debuff their fullest on mobs with no armor penetration, like a target dummy, but their effectiveness will decrease based on enemy damage resistance and net damage resistance (1+ the attacker's mitigation ignored%- enemy damage resist%)
Firstly, the base debuff values of these multipliers on something that has no damage mitigation, like a target dummy:
High Prophet’s Set (10% debuff per stack, up to 3 stacks for 4s each), stacks can be refreshed. Stacks applied with all at wills and encounters. Punishing light and DC Dailies apply 3 stacks instantly but they drop off when ability ends.
Plague fire Enchantment (1/2/3% debuff per stack depending on rank, stacks up to 3 stacks for 4s each). Same mechanics as High Prophet set. Plague fires of different ranks will stack, but not of same ranks (i.e. 2 Greater Plague fires are redundant)
Terror Enchantment (1/2/3/4% debuff to mob for 5s depending on rank). Only 1 stack can be applied
High Vizier’s Set (10% debuff, stacks up to 3 stacks for 4s each). Only placed with certain encounters and not at wills. Oppressive Force applies 3 stacks instantly but drop off when effect ends
CW feat- Elemental empowerment -10% debuff with arcane encounters for 3s
All of these debuffs are party debuffs, so anyone attacking the debuffed mobs will gain the benefit.
The actual debuff % applied from above multipliers are reduced by the mob's damage resistance stat (PvE only)
Thank you to @mythlond2 for spotting inconsistencies and intiating our our investigations into this
Because these abilities 'reduces target defense' in some way, including High Prophets, Plague fire Enchantment, Terror Enchantment and Elemental Empowerment, the amount debuffed per stack is first reduced by the mob's damage resistance modifier, regardless of the attackers' resistance ignored % stat. It is then subject to the difference between the attacker's mitigation ignored stat and the mob's damage resist stat.
Debuff calculation for High Prophet, Plague fire, Terror and Elemental Empowerment:
Effective debuff = base debuff * (1- enemy damage resist%) * (1+ attacker mitigation ignored% - enemy damage resist%)
For example, a 'brute mob' such as a Fey troll has 20% damage resistance.
Even if you already have >20% resistance ignored from ArP:
For 3 stacks of high prophet
Effective debuff = 10 * (1 - 0.2) * (1 + 0.2 - 0.2) = 10 * 0.8 = 8% per stack or 24% for 3 stacks
If attacker had zero armor penetration
Effective debuff = 10 * (1 - 0.2) * (1 + 0 - 0.2) = 10 * 0.8 * 0.8 = 6.4% per stack or 19.2% for 3 stacks
This means for a DPSer, the effectiveness they receiver out of placed debuffs is always going to be reduced by the mob’s DR. If the DPSer don’t have high enough mitigation ignored they get reduction applied twice multiplicatively.
Debuff calculation for High Vizier
High Vizier debuffs somehow only have 1 DR multiplier applied:
Effective HV debuff = base debuff * (1+your mitigation ignored% - enemy damage resist%)
This means you get full 10% from High Viz if you have enough mitigation.
I’m not sure whether it really is the developers’ intention for debuff calculations to be subject to reduction via damage resistance in the first place, let alone a double resist but it definitely is a peculiar finding.
Overall formula for debuff interaction is thus
Debuffed damage = base damage * [no. of stacks * base debuff% * (1- enemy damage resist%) * (1+ attacker mitigation ignored% - enemy damage resist%)] *(1+ booster multipliers%)
Buffs and mob damage reduction is then applied to that damage to calculate overall damage dealt. Defense debuff multipliers are additive in their effects.
TL;DR
What this means is the strength of the above debuffs is directly proportional to the attacker's armor penetration/ over resistance ignored %. If you're debuffing via High Prophet and/or Plague fire/ Terror, your party members will not get the full benefit out of them, ie they will be to 24% weaker if they don't have ArP (converts to about 5-6% debuff overall). Because this is independent of the DC's ArP, you are not required to stack ArP yourself. However if you want to get the full mileage out of your own debuffs ArP is not a bad choice. You need to decide what is a reasonable compromise. For abilities not listed (e.g. Divine Glow) they are a different type of debuff multiplier and not subject to this effect.
For further reading on debuffs and related topics, check out section 6.3 of my DC guide.
Just want to share some recent investigations into debuff percentages. The follow applies to PvE only, in PvP they simply reduce target defense as described on tooltip.
Defense debuff multipliers are usually the ones that 'reduces' defense by X' in their description, and therefore their effect can vary depending on the mob's damage resistance stat. However, because PvE mobs don't have defense, the game substitutes damage resistance (DR) in those calculations. These abilities will debuff their fullest on mobs with no armor penetration, like a target dummy, but their effectiveness will decrease based on enemy damage resistance and net damage resistance (1+ the attacker's mitigation ignored%- enemy damage resist%)
Firstly, the base debuff values of these multipliers on something that has no damage mitigation, like a target dummy:
High Prophet’s Set (10% debuff per stack, up to 3 stacks for 4s each), stacks can be refreshed. Stacks applied with all at wills and encounters. Punishing light and DC Dailies apply 3 stacks instantly but they drop off when ability ends.
Plague fire Enchantment (1/2/3% debuff per stack depending on rank, stacks up to 3 stacks for 4s each). Same mechanics as High Prophet set. Plague fires of different ranks will stack, but not of same ranks (i.e. 2 Greater Plague fires are redundant)
Terror Enchantment (1/2/3/4% debuff to mob for 5s depending on rank). Only 1 stack can be applied
High Vizier’s Set (10% debuff, stacks up to 3 stacks for 4s each). Only placed with certain encounters and not at wills. Oppressive Force applies 3 stacks instantly but drop off when effect ends
CW feat- Elemental empowerment -10% debuff with arcane encounters for 3s
All of these debuffs are party debuffs, so anyone attacking the debuffed mobs will gain the benefit.
The actual debuff % applied from above multipliers are reduced by the mob's damage resistance stat (PvE only)
Thank you to @mythlond2 for spotting inconsistencies and intiating our our investigations into this
Because these abilities 'reduces target defense' in some way, including High Prophets, Plague fire Enchantment, Terror Enchantment and Elemental Empowerment, the amount debuffed per stack is first reduced by the mob's damage resistance modifier, regardless of the attackers' resistance ignored % stat. It is then subject to the difference between the attacker's mitigation ignored stat and the mob's damage resist stat.
Debuff calculation for High Prophet, Plague fire, Terror and Elemental Empowerment:
Effective debuff = base debuff * (1- enemy damage resist%) * (1+ attacker mitigation ignored% - enemy damage resist%)
For example, a 'brute mob' such as a Fey troll has 20% damage resistance.
Even if you already have >20% resistance ignored from ArP:
For 3 stacks of high prophet
Effective debuff = 10 * (1 - 0.2) * (1 + 0.2 - 0.2) = 10 * 0.8 = 8% per stack or 24% for 3 stacks
If attacker had zero armor penetration
Effective debuff = 10 * (1 - 0.2) * (1 + 0 - 0.2) = 10 * 0.8 * 0.8 = 6.4% per stack or 19.2% for 3 stacks
This means for a DPSer, the effectiveness they receiver out of placed debuffs is always going to be reduced by the mob’s DR. If the DPSer don’t have high enough mitigation ignored they get reduction applied twice multiplicatively.
Debuff calculation for High Vizier
High Vizier debuffs somehow only have 1 DR multiplier applied:
Effective HV debuff = base debuff * (1+your mitigation ignored% - enemy damage resist%)
This means you get full 10% from High Viz if you have enough mitigation.
I’m not sure whether it really is the developers’ intention for debuff calculations to be subject to reduction via damage resistance in the first place, let alone a double resist but it definitely is a peculiar finding.
Overall formula for debuff interaction is thus
Debuffed damage = base damage * [no. of stacks * base debuff% * (1- enemy damage resist%) * (1+ attacker mitigation ignored% - enemy damage resist%)] *(1+ booster multipliers%)
Buffs and mob damage reduction is then applied to that damage to calculate overall damage dealt. Defense debuff multipliers are additive in their effects.
TL;DR
What this means is the strength of the above debuffs is directly proportional to the attacker's armor penetration/ over resistance ignored %. If you're debuffing via High Prophet and/or Plague fire/ Terror, your party members will not get the full benefit out of them, ie they will be to 24% weaker if they don't have ArP (converts to about 5-6% debuff overall). Because this is independent of the DC's ArP, you are not required to stack ArP yourself. However if you want to get the full mileage out of your own debuffs ArP is not a bad choice. You need to decide what is a reasonable compromise. For abilities not listed (e.g. Divine Glow) they are a different type of debuff multiplier and not subject to this effect.
For further reading on debuffs and related topics, check out section 6.3 of my DC guide.
Kaelac Symphony LaggyGamerz Community
Guild and guide info
Module 4 Comprehensive DC guide |Module 4 MoF CW Handbook |New! Scourge Warlock Guide| NW Numbers and Mechanics guide |Crit, Power and DPS guide | Dungeon Delving guide and more
Guild and guide info
Module 4 Comprehensive DC guide |Module 4 MoF CW Handbook |New! Scourge Warlock Guide| NW Numbers and Mechanics guide |Crit, Power and DPS guide | Dungeon Delving guide and more
Post edited by theosymphany on
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Finally got around to checking this and from what I'm seeing, this is not the case. It is the armor penetration of each party member that determines the strength of the HP debuff they receive, and not the ARP of the cleric. So we don't need to stack ARP.
Of course Kaelac, I would appreciate if you can confirm.
It means transcended mastery (15% SoEA)> elemental empoverment. ( only 6-8%)
Can sb confirm this?
Thus I retract the statement that DCs need to stack ArP for their debuffs to be more effective for the party. Thank you to mythlond2 for further testing and apologies for any confusion.
Update: I have made the relevant edits in the original post to reflect this change.
Guild and guide info
Module 4 Comprehensive DC guide |Module 4 MoF CW Handbook |New! Scourge Warlock Guide| NW Numbers and Mechanics guide |Crit, Power and DPS guide | Dungeon Delving guide and more
Why not put that as the first line in your original post ...