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Neutering the GWF
mutjinninja
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 93 Arc User
Alright, so I've recently had a look at what's changed in the mod 3 preview server and let's just say I am less than pleased with what's been done to the GWF.
First of all, Deep Gash. The bane of pvp. I understand that this was nerfed due to Sentinels in pvp doing stupid amounts of damage despite their tanking build. However, I do not think that it needs a nerf. I would propose something a lot simpler that would make many a PvE GWF happy: move the feat deeper into the Destroyer tree. It's that simple. Simply swap Deep Gash with Relentless Battle Fury or Improved reaction. That way, as a pvp GWF goes deep into the Sentinel tree, they do not have the feat points available to max or even get Deep Gash. No need to take a huge chunk of our damage away. Simply rearrange the tree.
Secondly, Student of the Sword. This has been insanely nerfed. It's not amusing in the least. We're going from a 45% defense reduction (3 stacks) to a 5% reduction that doesn't stack. Really? Perhaps it would be more prudent to at least allow this 5% to stack. To go from so much to so little kills our damage. In conjunction with the Deep Gash nerf, we find ourselves back to mod 1 status: pathetic. I understand mod 2 was the rise of the GWF, but this excessive nerfing is not necessary.
The whole point of nerfing is to balance the game, correct? Wrong. nerfing is NOT balancing. While my propositions would work just fine in restoring an even playing field in pvp, there is another way still. If the game is unbalanced in GWF's favor, why not give another class a buff or skill or boost to counteract this? THAT is balance. Just gutting a class is not balancing the game; having classes that have weaknesses between them (GWF weak to boosted TR, but boosted TR weak to CW, etc) is balance.
I would urge cryptic to consider these suggestions since they do often take community suggestions. It would upset less people and solve the pvp issues. I'd like to hear the forum's thoughts on these matters and humbly request that if anyone here CAN get cryptic's attention that they propose these ideas to them. I've greatly enjoyed gearing up and destroying on my GWF; I hate that I'm prepping my cw to run mod 3 because of what's been done to my favorite class.
EDIT: I did mean sentinel gwfs. Thank you for correcting me. Corrected
First of all, Deep Gash. The bane of pvp. I understand that this was nerfed due to Sentinels in pvp doing stupid amounts of damage despite their tanking build. However, I do not think that it needs a nerf. I would propose something a lot simpler that would make many a PvE GWF happy: move the feat deeper into the Destroyer tree. It's that simple. Simply swap Deep Gash with Relentless Battle Fury or Improved reaction. That way, as a pvp GWF goes deep into the Sentinel tree, they do not have the feat points available to max or even get Deep Gash. No need to take a huge chunk of our damage away. Simply rearrange the tree.
Secondly, Student of the Sword. This has been insanely nerfed. It's not amusing in the least. We're going from a 45% defense reduction (3 stacks) to a 5% reduction that doesn't stack. Really? Perhaps it would be more prudent to at least allow this 5% to stack. To go from so much to so little kills our damage. In conjunction with the Deep Gash nerf, we find ourselves back to mod 1 status: pathetic. I understand mod 2 was the rise of the GWF, but this excessive nerfing is not necessary.
The whole point of nerfing is to balance the game, correct? Wrong. nerfing is NOT balancing. While my propositions would work just fine in restoring an even playing field in pvp, there is another way still. If the game is unbalanced in GWF's favor, why not give another class a buff or skill or boost to counteract this? THAT is balance. Just gutting a class is not balancing the game; having classes that have weaknesses between them (GWF weak to boosted TR, but boosted TR weak to CW, etc) is balance.
I would urge cryptic to consider these suggestions since they do often take community suggestions. It would upset less people and solve the pvp issues. I'd like to hear the forum's thoughts on these matters and humbly request that if anyone here CAN get cryptic's attention that they propose these ideas to them. I've greatly enjoyed gearing up and destroying on my GWF; I hate that I'm prepping my cw to run mod 3 because of what's been done to my favorite class.
EDIT: I did mean sentinel gwfs. Thank you for correcting me. Corrected
Post edited by mutjinninja on
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errrrmmmmmmmm....
The conclusion of the high end gwfs in the Preview thread is that you can safely remove all the points you had in SotS and DG. Where to put those points now, is still not clear.
But yes, what they done does seem to hit hard. Now, seems you HAVE to go full Destroyer to try and recover some damage as they have beefed up the feats deeper in the Destroyer tree. PVE Instigators & Sentinels are finished now.
yeah instigator and sentinel are dead after this for pve
Your suggestions regarding the GWF tree are completely reasonable if you hold CW as the standard of performance; sadly Cryptic doesn't want to use CW as their basis of comparison, instead they want you to use two classes that no one even takes into PvE content anymore. (One of which they are about to nerf big time, which makes a comparison virtually moot by definition.)
Logic. There is none.
And again, HAMSTER nerf SE. Just make that **** not critable plz... I am fine being hit for 7k-12k. But 20K-35K? FK this.
I mean HR literally becomes a companion with the Fox nerf and Split shot nerf. The only real dmg I can come out is Aim shot lol. Which ain't that easy to land in the middle of the fight.
Once mod 3 come GWF would be really balanced, as in legit way. GF naturally gets a dmg buff from the power revamp. And more tenacity only gonna make the GF shield stronger than ever. CW is gonna be HAMSTER considering Dev already said they gonna take a look at it, I doubt it would be good... TR at this moment seem to be the king of PVP, as usual. HR well we will see how other changes works out. DC would be fine, good DC are doing fine in tenacity patch currently, just don't pug as DC that is all.
These changes are balancing the GWF, not nerfing them.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Then Cryptic is working against their players. The post-nerf HR's will lose about 60% of their damage and unless they plan to give gwfs perma-stealth, i don't see how being compared to the rogue would be good. I don't want to compare myself to an HR that does 3 million per dungeon when I'm used to doing 12+ mil. That's just stupid. Cryptic: "you should all want to suck more"
But it needn't be nerfed. PvE destroyers like myself are pissed over this. We like actually being useful again in epics. If cryptic were to follow my advice, it wouldn't technically be a nerf, but more of a balance.
1 - bleed modulo 2 : the big problem with this feat is that it is extremely disproportionate to different builds / gear levels . At the same time , no one needed to know in depth the class to be the king of dps . Destroyer porpose will at least require good use of roar .
2 - Future of the destroyer : well, let a point here . SEEMS TO ME that wrongly interpret the words of the dev when he said he wanted to match them with the ranger . There seems to be a real interest in increasing dps class , and that this is being worked slowly . What is wanted is destroyer dont have too high utilitarian capacity brought by sos . The idea would be to eliminate the accumulation of functions .
3 - instigator / sentinel : I really dont think it will work specifications for the instigator with the same care given to the destroyer . It seems to me that with the plans for gwf boil down to keeping it viable in pve by destroyer . Point .
What can happen by sentinel in terms of pve is the fact that somewhere was mentioned who are reworking the system of threat . If the sentinel become a good defender, will be because of something that will primarily beneficial the gf .
No, the HR is being *balanced*. If you look at yesterday's newest patch notes (posted about 13 hours before you made your comment) you will see that the HR is having about a half-dozen powers being 'upgraded' with additional power and/or effect time. Yes. really. Go look.
Threads like this always humor me because everyone loves to use the word "NERF" - which is just shorthand way of saying "ZOMG! I'll actually have to try harder to nuke my opponent!". Not to mention 99% of all "NERF!" whining are PvP players complaining that it will be harder to nuke other players.
It's a GAME. Stop taking things so seriously. Everyone's knee-jerk reaction is just a waste of energy, especially when you're complaining about active changes being made on a work-in-progress preview/testing item that isn;t completed yet.
I normally don't actually participate in crybaby threads, but I had to quote the above just so I could call you out on it (I'm not trying to insult anyone, only use a single example that applies to everyone). Honestly people, play the preview, then give meaningful and useful feedback in the feedback threads and the Devs will make "corrections" as necessary based on that feedback.
Okay, I'm done with my own counter-whining, flame on.
UPDATE NOTES posted at 09:49 AM Yesterday:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?645601-Curse-of-Icewind-Dale-Preview-Patch-Notes-NW-15-20140331a-3&p=7689841&viewfull=1#post7689841
HR BUFFS:
Hunter Ranger
Aspect of the Pack: Now correctly grants Combat Advantage to allies instead of only granting it to the Ranger. The Ranger still benefits from this effect as well.
Boar Charge: This power now requires a target to be fired.
Clear the Ground: Damage increased by roughly 50%.
Commanding Shot: This power now also gains +10% damage when it ranks up.
Electric Shot: Damage increased by roughly 100%.
Fox Shift: This power may now strike any one target a maximum of 2 times.
Hawkeye: This power was redesigned. It now grants you 15% bonus damage on the next attack. Allies gain half this benefit (based on the rank of the power).
Hunter's Teamwork: Can now be picked up by allies not on your team. Both they and your team will be healed.
Oakskin: Healing increased by 150%.
Slasher's Mark: Damage increase by 300%.
Split the Sky: Base Damage of this power increased by roughly 40%. Additionally fixed a bug with the way weapon damage was calculated by this power. There should be no net change from this fix.
Thorn Strike: Base Damage of this power increased by roughly 40%.
Now all of you: Kwitcherbichen
There's no reason to be pissed about these changes. PvE destroyers, when played right, will still be doing better damage than any other class except the CW. Between damage and survivability(arguably the best of ANY class), you will still be plenty useful in dungeons, I assure you. Let it play out... When Mod 3 rolls in and you still feel like Destroyer is a useless class (it won't happen) then you can complain.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
I was not trying to flame, I'm sorry if you misread my intent. Nor is this a crybaby thread, thank you. My purpose was to provide some alternatives to the nerfs (and they are nerfs) coming to the gwf. I think these alternatives are solid and viable and could be easily worked into the class. This is called constructive criticism; I saw changes I did not like, I gave my feedback on them and offered other solutions, and then sat back and hoped that cryptic might take these into account. I've done exactly what you said I haven't which perplexes me a bit.
Also, I've seen the pvpers whining and as you may note by reading through this thread, I am a pve player. I don't enjoy pvp and really could care less about it.
Likewise, when something is nerfed, it does not mean you can simply "try harder" and succeed. With these changes (which are of course subject to change and I hope that they do) no amount of effort will get me back to my previous damage. I do understand my class and will reallocate points where they need to be, but the buffs provided to the gwf will most likely not be on par with what we're losing. Yes, i may change up my playstyle and still be a useful pve player, but not as useful as I used to be. This is the point of contention. I don't need to be less useful simply because pvp players are OP. This takes us back to my original post and my suggestions.
Thank you for your feedback and updated notes (I had not looked, I apologize for not keeping strictly up to date), but the flame is unappreciated. Just because people make noise at class changes does not mean they are whining. They are offering their feedback which may be constructive (not whining) or not (whining).
Agreed. But it also comes down to gear. If you have your Pvorpal and r8-9s going into Mod 3, you're not gonna feel much of a hit. You're already super geared and buffed and you can simply adjust to these changes and play on. Other, less-geared, gwfs may have trouble adjusting and remaining useful.
I agree that we do have tons of survivability, but with the advent of the new destroyer, we may see a little less of that. Taking a full destroyer tree might lead to becoming a glass cannon. However, this is just speculation as we have no idea what the end product is yet.
Also...all hail the OP cw xD. They've been crazy good since release and remain to be. Honestly, I should have made one sooner >.>
And it's only fair I apologize to you also, mujinninja - reading back at my comment it came off a lot more frictional sounding than I intended!
We're all here to have fun. I know that, we all get it. Sometimes these things can press our buttons, and we become passionate. I do want to make it clear: I understand where everyone is coming from. I suppose my only "gripe" about all these messes it how it seems all the PvP players are against the PvE players (when I know they're really not). It's just that the way the game works: they are opposites of the "power requirements and abilities" coin; diametrically juxtaposed or something!
Maybe it would be better if Devs just created a PvP power set and power bar and a Solo/PvE power set and power bar. Would probably be a lot easier to balance things because it seems when things are balanced great for PvE/Solo - they're out of whack for PvP and vice-versa.
THIS. Speaking of constructive advice, I was hunting around the forums last night to see if anyone had any other ideas that would be better for mod 3 and I came across this. The branching skill system. I think it's an absolutely fantastic idea!! No longer would cryptic anger pvp players when they make a class very pve viable, nor would they do the opposite in nerfing based off pvp. Having a pvp skill tree and a pve skill tree (pvp tree only being accessible when you enter pvp zones and matches, obviously) would be perfect. That way I could have my lovely DG and SOTS and own Valindra again and again, but then I could hop into pvp and have a fair and balanced time.
It would also allow more delicate balancing of classes in both settings. Since class edits would no longer affect the viability in the pvp and pve realms, they would not have to balance the issue of making the class fair while not making it pathetic and unable to run T2s.
Wonderful idea and one that I wish I would be seeing near the end of spring. Alas, I do not think cryptic would overhaul their existing systems that much or at least not this close to module release. Maybe mod 4 if the community really clamors for it?
Err, the Deep Gash you're seeing now in Live is totally not working as intended to be honest.
This was supposedly the update for the Deep Gash feat in Mod 2. So with the changes on Deep Gash in Mod 3, Deep Gash is getting a nerf, buff and fix.
THE NERF:
This feat can no longer crit.
THE BUFF:
This feat now applies a bleed that ticks for 4/8/12/16/20% of your Power (up from 3/6/9/12/15%).
(this is a useless buff but a buff nonetheless)
THE FIX:
This feat no longer gains additional damage from the power that applies it.
This power no longer ticks immediately upon application.
New applications will not reset the tick timer.
I do agree that the SotS nerf is rather severe, but what's there to do other than probably pointless struggles for the devs to revert the changes?
I have to say, Student of the Sword never reduced defense by 45%, it was straight up mitigation reduction by 5% per stack, meaning each stack meant +5% damage for you and your team, regardless of the defense your target had, now it just doesn't stack anymore and it's personal, meaning you won't be buffing your allies and will be doing more damage in relation to them.
On the contrary, my friend. Gear is actually pretty isolated from the changes, it's more about a separation of Sentinels and Destroyers. With these changes, an average-geared Destroyer will have a much easier time doing more PvE damage than a decked-out Sentinel, for example.
I can't say it enough, PvE Destroyers really don't have much to worry about.
Take a look around at the very real problems that some other classes are experiencing and realize that it's almost a bit selfish of us GWF to complain about these changes.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
all those changes are just as easily adjustable. so kwicherbuttkissin
(double post)
Play another game.
You got that right, here's a cookie.