Not really. GWFs already have lots of mobility and unstoppable and roar to catch ranged enemies. You have bravery, which makes it much easier to catch up on the enemies.
Right now, i see threat rush being not OP only against TRs and HRs. Just cause they can evade a lot more than any other class.
CWs, on the other hand, were hurt a lot more by threat rush. Before module 2, in a fight the CW was able to repel and cc, then kite through teleports and repel again.
The GWF could go Unstoppable, sprint, use bravery and roar to catch the CW if he could time his roar correctly and stun the enemy. Plus the run speed from bravery was a good help, allowing you to close the gap much faster when repelled.
Right now, the CW can repel and cc a bit, but it is more difficult to land a rotation, they say. And repel now is not that effective. Which means a GWF can easily get in melee range. Now, what the CW could do in the past was to kite with teleports. Now they just can't. Teleport range is not that big. You run 1 second toward the CW and threat rush, and you're there. Sometimes you just need to threat rush cause they are still in range even after the teleport.
The point is:
- threat rush deals too much damage on a GWF. Must be reduced to a really simbolic damage considering it already debuffs and closes the gap. Would not hurt GFs, since they already just use it as a gap closer with low damage.
- every other class must be balanced with the mobility given by threat rush to a IV GWF.
- Swordmaster must get some buffs to have something to use against threat rush mobility to attract players. Crescendo is ranged while indomitable strenght is melee, and it's a good start point. Would increase also a bit flourish damage and range. Plus you get steely defense and steel blitz, which is a good CC resistance buff.
Its a nice story but what you are saying calls for major alterations - debuff this, buff that ,change this, remove that etc. Somehow I dont think balancing different roles in MM games is as simple as 1+1=2.
People have gotten way softer these days. Why play a 'role' at all if you want your toon to be able to do everyhting( do tons of dps from range, cc your opponent, survive close melee encounters, be able to escape everything). You see, this is what balancing means in your words guys. If you want that just go to CO, grab a freeform character and build a ranged tank who can nuke, with control powers, debuffs, buffs and self healing, but leave classes in NVW as different as they should be. Some have low HP, low defence, high something else and thats the way it should be, strong points and weak points. Balancing comes from us, players. Our performance in a certain role is defined by how well we utilize its strengths and how well we mask its weaknesses.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Its a nice story but what you are saying calls for major alterations - debuff this, buff that ,change this, remove that etc. Somehow I dont think balancing different roles in MM games is as simple as 1+1=2.
People have gotten way softer these days. Why play a 'role' at all if you want your toon to be able to do everyhting( do tons of dps from range, cc your opponent, survive close melee encounters, be able to escape everything). You see, this is what balancing means in your words guys. If you want that just go to CO, grab a freeform character and build a ranged tank who can nuke, with control powers, debuffs, buffs and self healing, but leave classes in NVW as different as they should be. Some have low HP, low defence, high something else and thats the way it should be, strong points and weak points. Balancing comes from us, players. Our performance in a certain role is defined by how well we utilize its strengths and how well we mask its weaknesses.
So you think a class/spec that:
- is best point holder together with perma TR
- dealing the most damage in PvP, sometimes as much as twice as other class (run ACT on some premades to see this if you don't believe)
- tankiest spec in the game
- very mobile
- can pretty easily achieve high HP and defenses while not having to forego offense
- can perma prone CC rotation with the spikiest encounter in the game to top it off, IBS
- can slot 3 prones, Takedown, FLS, Savage Advance daily
Is a fair thing in the context of Domination on-point gameplay?
OK...
To be clear, PvE damage is one thing (I would never argue against GWFs having lots of it), but at least GWF specs Destro squish with low HP for max DPS. But PvP however is a whole different issue.
- is best point holder together with perma TR
- dealing the most damage in PvP, sometimes as much as twice as other class (run ACT on some premades to see this if you don't believe)
- tankiest spec in the game
- very mobile
- can pretty easily achieve high HP and defenses while not having to forego offense
- can perma prone CC rotation with the spikiest encounter in the game to top it off, IBS
- can slot 3 prones, Takedown, FLS, Savage Advance daily
Is a fair thing in the context of Domination on-point gameplay?
OK...
To be clear, PvE damage is one thing (I would never argue against GWFs having lots of it), but at least GWF specs Destro squish with low HP for max DPS. But PvP however is a whole different issue.
I understand where you are coming from with this. And I admit I speak solely from personal experience. My own GWF was always a Destroyer, thanks to 3 pvp items I go into battle with 26kHP and 1700 DEF. My damage is off the chart IF I crit and Im pretty mobile so much is true. The rest however is not. I cant hold a point VS equal GS people with tenacity. Im not tanky at all. I dont have high HP, def or deflect. I cant perma prone people who have Tenacity ( If you go to pvp without it you have only yourself to blame ). IBS is great too if it crits.
"- can slot 3 prones, Takedown, FLS, Savage Advance daily " - so what ? You do understand that getting hit by this particular combo is purely situational, its not something GWFs can do nonstop to everybody. SA needs your full action points, FLS has 16+ seconds cooldown. Plenty of window for a skilled player with more or less equal gear to take me down. The grief you're feeling comes from Sentinels. Please stop putting all GWFs under a common denominator. I've been taken down plenty of times by Sentinels. They are losing the damage soon anyway.
So, lets review ( for pvp ) :
- with Icewind Dale GWFs as a whole will lose damage, Sentinels will lose a ton
- with Tenacity nobody can perma prone you
- with Tenacity nobody can perma crit you into oblivion
- Destroyer GWFs never were indestructible killing machines, however, well built and geared we have great damage and if a ranged class gets in my range it should expect to fall
UPDATE: last night after a really long queue I managed to do 1 of my 4 daily pvp matches in a PUG. The opposing team had 2 HRs, 2 TRs and 1 GWF. I clearly had the best gear on the map. The HRs would do the same thing almost everytime, they would come down to contested middle point and then start attacking. Imagine their surprise when I was on top of them a second later. A few times one of them had the genius( read 'common sense') idea to go up the bridge and kite from there, the result - he made us leave the node to go after him and his team capped. Quite simple isnt it ? In the end we lost that match even with me killing them like 40 times.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Destro GWF are pretty balanced in PvP. They deal HUGE damage, but they are rather squishy.
However nobody specs destro for PvP They spec sent and get 45K HP and huge defenses and lose what, 10% damage?
So in all honesty, destroyers are not at all the topic of my previous post. I'm speaking purely of the cheese IV sent specs that populate the high end PvP zone.
And you can get perma proned EASILY with Tenacity. I have 20% on my CW and if a FLS hits, Takedown+IBS is next. I get critted for 7-10K IBS. But it's an encounter, it's OK to deal decent damage. What's not OK is that Threatening Rush spam also deals lots and lots of damage, and you cannot tank it, with the intent to dodge the big stuff.
To recapitulate:
- destroyers in PvP are not part of people complaints. They are uncommon and nobody plays one in the top tier echelon
- destroyer tradeoff such as squishy char with huge DPS is what makes them balanced
- perma prone to death is alive and well with Tenacity for GWF
VERY tanky char with LOTS of damage and CC - still not OK
All in all, you cannot say "GWF is OK because I play a PvEish spec and its balanced". Gotta look down, from the top - where people play very tanky IV sents.
I cant say I like what Im reading about the Rush but honeslty I cant dispute your post as a whole either. Because, as it should be evident by now, I'm a minority as far as GWFs go lol and I havnt done any of that "high end, top tier pvp". I do disagree about Tenacity, I have had my prones consistently resisted thruout a single match by the same people. If that is not Tenacity what is it? My own T is about 400, not sure how much is that in % but I notice reduced cc effects.
BTW those numbers from IBS you listed are quite low, if my Destro prones you + crits you then 20K can very well be the result. That PVP match I described above was VS people with low ( lower than mine ) GS and low to no Tenacity. I know this because they were easy to prone and apart from the GWF, all were a 1 IBS KO. In short - Tenacity does work if you have enough of it.
Anyways the end of nigh indestructible/high burst IV Sents is near.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Destroyers only DPS oriented are squishy.
A destroyer build geared and specced properly can PvP now. I'm testing it on preview, it's viable.
There's stuff about the sentinel tree still to change, like the 15% damage buff on marked targets. Basically, a IV sentinel can chain prone while marking you (threat rush, prone, threat rush, prone, threat rush and IBS. Which is a Whole 15% damage buff on your encounters.
With destroyer tree well used, you can have a 20% buff from Destroyer's purpose and another 10% IF you use your encounters during unstoppable. IBS feat buff is dependant on the enemy's HPs. Focused destroyer can proc or not, stacking it is not a given, expecially against TRs/ HRs. Which means that one feat from tier 2 in sentinel tree makes up for most of the damage buff in PvP (not in PvE since you get hit and the mark goes away pretty fast, unless someone else has consistently more aggro than you).
Destro's post-buff, could be balanced and strong in PvP too if used well.
Sentinels, if i got it well, will undergo a rework. Devs want, if i got it well, give them more aggro ability in PvE, and lower the damage in PvP.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I do disagree about Tenacity, I have had my prones consistently resisted thruout a single match by the same people. If that is not Tenacity what is it? My own T is about 400, not sure how much is that in % but I notice reduced cc effects.
BTW those numbers from IBS you listed are quite low, if my Destro prones you + crits you then 20K can very well be the result. That PVP match I described above was VS people with low ( lower than mine ) GS and low to no Tenacity. I know this because they were easy to prone and apart from the GWF, all were a 1 IBS KO. In short - Tenacity does work if you have enough of it.
Anyways the end of nigh indestructible/high burst IV Sents is near.
- halflings and maybe dwarves can fully resist prones due to bugged racial or incorrect toooltip, I didn't want to mention it again cause it always ends up in a lot of hate, there's a reason almost every "pro" PvPer runs a halfling. Dwarves maybe not that popular yet dunno. They also have reduced CC on them, together with 20% Tenacity it's quite a lot of CC negation
- hehe 20K lol, yeah as I said Destroyers do HUGE DPS, but at least I have a chance to kill you myself if I can get in a rotation or two or maybe a daily before you get me. Not really the same with sentis, they will deflect a lot, have huge DR, pop Unstoppable after each of my encounter crits and have a huge HP pool I have to deplete, so I need lots and lots of luck to kill decent ones, and probably almost impossible to kill BiS ones.
- halflings and maybe dwarves can fully resist prones due to bugged racial or incorrect toooltip, I didn't want to mention it again cause it always ends up in a lot of hate, there's a reason almost every "pro" PvPer runs a halfling. Dwarves maybe not that popular yet dunno. They also have reduced CC on them, together with 20% Tenacity it's quite a lot of CC negation
- hehe 20K lol, yeah as I said Destroyers do HUGE DPS, but at least I have a chance to kill you myself if I can get in a rotation or two or maybe a daily before you get me. Not really the same with sentis, they will deflect a lot, have huge DR, pop Unstoppable after each of my encounter crits and have a huge HP pool I have to deplete, so I need lots and lots of luck to kill decent ones, and probably almost impossible to kill BiS ones.
Everything you can kill in one rotation is balanced.. everything you cant kill in one rotation is **** OP! having the distance advantage for you is not enough if u cant kill a gwf face to face.... Ohh and dwarves are only resistant to pushes that is not working in pve at all and a DOT resistance that never worked.. you think they should nerf that as well?!
Maybe some of the enchants are too strong and here i have in mind lifedrinker, but other than that i see nothing wrong with sentinels.. i die just fine in 1v1 vs TR/HR (some i kill some i die from) been on par with GF/DC(we can look at each other all day) and i can be kited by cw just long enough to receive reinforcements and die short after. A CW like HR have constant huge dmg no matter the distance and that is huge.
Everything you can kill in one rotation is balanced.. everything you cant kill in one rotation is **** OP! having the distance advantage for you is not enough if u cant kill a gwf face to face.... Ohh and dwarves are only resistant to pushes that is not working in pve at all and a DOT resistance that never worked.. you think they should nerf that as well?!
Maybe some of the enchants are too strong and here i have in mind lifedrinker, but other than that i see nothing wrong with sentinels.. i die just fine in 1v1 vs TR/HR (some i kill some i die from) been on par with GF/DC(we can look at each other all day) and i can be kited by cw just long enough to receive reinforcements and die short after. A CW like HR have constant huge dmg no matter the distance and that is huge.
I think a major issue in pvp comes from the fact that ranged classes dont fully utilize their range. For example is a CW's max attack range longer than 1 stamina bar? Our greatest gap closer is SA and I think its not enough to reach a CW hittinng me from max range. If you hit me from max range and I start running, will I reach you before I deplete stamina.. or before I die ? But wait, you do not only attack, both CW and HR also cc. Plus its not always a straight line sprint, there are obstacles a GWF has to navigate to reach the CW or HR. In my own, pretty extensive pvp experience, what I observe in the majority of matches are CWs and HRs who come down to the point before starting to fight. That has nothing to do with GWF being OP imo. Your class role is to nuke from afar, death from above type of thing.
I can see it like this:
- I cap a point
- Ranged class kites me from max distance
- my options - either stay on point and die or run to them to either kill or die
- either way i leave the point
However, when they do come down to me, especially if its one on one, I rush, prone and rotate and thats that.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
However, when they do come down to me, especially if its one on one, I rush, prone and rotate and thats that.
There are players against who prone doesnt even work.. they wait for animation to start and dodge leaving u to hit the air, is rly rare to land one against a good tr/hr or cw.
50%? less. i did some test. ran karru a few times.
on preview i took me an average of 4 minutes to reach 1m damage.
on live, it took me an average of 1 minute 30 to reach 1m damage.
this is just bull****
GWF: NorlasTR: SanneDC: KeylethHR: Ella SnipesCW: Montalto
Eventually someone realized that Deep Gash was only doing the damage it was doing because you could place it on thirty targets with three casts of an at-will. 30x2000=60,000 damage per tick. Roughly speaking, and varied by Gear Score.
You'll see that after these changes, if they are ported to live as-is, that GWF will be almost exactly back where it was before Module 2. I.E. still over powered as hell in PvP, but nerfed to oblivion in PvE.
I guess at the end of the day you should probably just play a Control Wizard. It's the only class you'll ever need for PvE, and I mean that literally. Stack 5 of them, profit. Good luck stacking 5 GWF or 5 HR's post-patch unless you are really overgeared for all content. (15-17k GS) Or how about stacking 5 GF's? Or 5 TR? Or 5 DC? It's laughable to even think about it; and even if it is doable it's so much more difficult it's not a strategy so much as stroking your ego to prove it's doable.
Even with that in mind, nothing solo's 100% of the content more efficiently or as fast as all Control Wizards. You can make arguements and say 'this or that is totally viable' and that's fine, but everyone should realize that Control Wizard does PvE best and doesn't need any help from any other class in the game to do it the best.
This is not 'balanced' by anyone's defintion. Control Wizard is, and has always been, a tank/cc/damage dealer/healer. Always. Isn't balance something that occurs when no one class is the best at all roles within the given content?
So reroll. Spend some cash. CW is a safe investment, they literally can not nerf the CW. They can't. PvE would be nearly impossible to run without CW's or massive overgearing and believe it or not Cryptic is probably aware of that fact. It would take a nearly 75% reduction in CW damage to make them even close to 'balanced' and I think everyone knows this. I think Cryptic is also aware that if they did what is required darn near everyone who plays Neverwinter would quit overnight.
So it's a rock and a hard place. Logically building up the other classes to the level of Control Wizard would make sense and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off virtually no one. But that would mean changing their PvE content, and that's hard, so let the nerfs begin!
(This is not me hating on Control Wizards, it's simply pointing out that Control Wizards are not balanced in PvE content and never have been. I have a CW. I play my CW. I find it very difficult to justify running any other class in PvE content these days because my success ratio is far higher on CW than on any other class. I can carry a team, no matter how bad they are, as Control Wizard. I can not carry a terrible team on, say, my HR. Hence the difference in successful PUG runs. My GWF could carry a team as well, although it was harder and the team could screw up what I was doing easier than they could on my CW.
Such will no longer be the case without the sustained high AoE DPS through our broke <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> bleed or the extra mitigation debuff from SotS. Giving us some wonky DPS boost attached to Unstoppable will help in heavy add fights where you are perma-unstoppable, but in the clear it's going to hit like a wet noodle if you can even catch up to the Control Wizard nuking 15 add's at a time.)
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Everything you can kill in one rotation is balanced.. everything you cant kill in one rotation is **** OP! having the distance advantage for you is not enough if u cant kill a gwf face to face.... Ohh and dwarves are only resistant to pushes that is not working in pve at all and a DOT resistance that never worked.. you think they should nerf that as well?!
Maybe some of the enchants are too strong and here i have in mind lifedrinker, but other than that i see nothing wrong with sentinels.. i die just fine in 1v1 vs TR/HR (some i kill some i die from) been on par with GF/DC(we can look at each other all day) and i can be kited by cw just long enough to receive reinforcements and die short after. A CW like HR have constant huge dmg no matter the distance and that is huge.
This is yet another post saying things I never said
- CW vs GWF destro is balanced because both classes have 50% chance or so to kill each other. What bad in this? If GWF catches CW, he's pretty much dead for. If CW manages to tank the TR spam and dodges a few prones while landing some shards he might win. Is this bad? Against a Senti many CW nukes would get deflected and the HP pool is way larger, plus other stuff that I won't enter in details here. You can consistently land you stuff and senti can tank most of it. Chances of CW success: close to 0 for same gear/skill/experience.
I think a major issue in pvp comes from the fact that ranged classes dont fully utilize their range.
Sometimes contesting a point it's way more important than nuking from afar when the point is red and looking like a full <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> doing so. Yeah you gonna die most probably, but at least you stopped the flow of points for the enemy team, hopefully reinforcements will be on the way as well. In a great team, CWs can stay more at range and it's working very good for us. But this is quite rare and 90% of the battles are on small areas, i.e. the point and its adjacent zone.
This whole thing is really simple. I have a Sent PVP GWF, I use 5/5 Deep Gash.
When I crit a target for say 10k, I get over 1k bleed ticks... You get FIVE of those ticks so that 10k just turned to 15k.
Thats a 50% dmg boost that is now going to drop WAY back to % of power. WHile I agree a 50% dmg boost to crits is pretty insane for such a low tier feat, what the DEVs need to do is realize that WITH this feat GWFs are finally attractive in PVE. In PVP, this is a major reason Sents are OP.
WIthout this, and put back to a power based system... Now GWFs are "balanced" in PVP but completely worthless in PVE...
So you need to find a way to compensate GWF AOE damage much more for it to even out.... My suggestions is to remove DR on AOE at wills, it should hit everyone for about the same, it also needs a flat damage buff on those at wills. I would also recommend removing the damage nerf to unstoppable, this speeds up attacks and now is a small damage boost to at wills.
This would HELP but wouldnt even solve the issue, ontop of that, when the DEVs adjust CWs - this may make alot of content unplayable.....
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited March 2014
Does anyone have any actual ACT logs to compare?
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
First and foremost is Student of the Sword. The tooltip on live is actually very misleading. Against players (who have a stat called defense remember) it actually reduces their *DEFENSE*. Critters don't actually have defense, but just a flat damage mitigation percentage. So Student of the Sword has always had a slightly different behavior on critters, which has been a 1/2/3/4/5% negative mitigation debuff that stacked 3 times. And could be applied separately by different players. Meaning you would get 15% more damage to a target for each GWF who had the feat at 3 stacks. Which is quite a bit of bonus damage considering this is a T1 feat. It was MASSIVELY out of line.
With that in mind, the change we went with was making it just provide that bonus and making it personal to prevent stacking bonuses from getting too strong. That said, it isn't unreasonable to make that buff work for teammates and not stack between multiple GWFs, but that can feel bad in its own way as well. However, that is why these things are on Preview
First and foremost is Student of the Sword. The tooltip on live is actually very misleading. Against players (who have a stat called defense remember) it actually reduces their *DEFENSE*. Critters don't actually have defense, but just a flat damage mitigation percentage. So Student of the Sword has always had a slightly different behavior on critters, which has been a 1/2/3/4/5% negative mitigation debuff that stacked 3 times. And could be applied separately by different players. Meaning you would get 15% more damage to a target for each GWF who had the feat at 3 stacks. Which is quite a bit of bonus damage considering this is a T1 feat. It was MASSIVELY out of line.
With that in mind, the change we went with was making it just provide that bonus and making it personal to prevent stacking bonuses from getting too strong. That said, it isn't unreasonable to make that buff work for teammates and not stack between multiple GWFs, but that can feel bad in its own way as well. However, that is why these things are on Preview
Gentlemancrush - have you posted this info in the 'Official Feedback Thread: Great Weapon Fighter Changes'?
Apologies if you have, and I just missed it.
EDIT:
If the only issue was that it was too strong for a Tier 1 feat, have you considered putting it far enough in the Destroyer line that only they can use it?
Gentlemancrush - have you posted this info in the 'Official Feedback Thread: Great Weapon Fighter Changes'?
Apologies if you have, and I just missed it.
EDIT:
If the only issue was that it was too strong for a Tier 1 feat, have you considered putting it far enough in the Destroyer line that only they can use it?
No, this is only posted in this thread. And considering it is in Instigator I don't really want to move it into the Destroyer tree
Instigator needs work too so that it can fill a specific role, but right now we want to stay focused on getting the Destroyer changes just right. SotS had to get changed because it was pretty abusive.
No, this is only posted in this thread. And considering it is in Instigator I don't really want to move it into the Destroyer tree
Instigator needs work too so that it can fill a specific role, but right now we want to stay focused on getting the Destroyer changes just right. SotS had to get changed because it was pretty abusive.
Oops, I forgot it was an Instigator feat as I automatically get it on every GWF anyway.
But have you considered the possibility of moving it or making another similar feat higher up in either Destroyer or Instigator as it was a group buff that made GWFs more welcome in parties? Maybe it was too strong for a Tier 1 feat, but perhaps it is reasonable for, say, a Tier 4 feat? The advantage of this being it could only be accessed by certain paths and therefore might be easier to balance.
I found some time after work and tested the changes on the Destroyer. What became obvious right away is the big burst increase. Solid increase of base damage ( guess thats the Power rework ) plus pretty sweet buffs resulting in some very heavy IBStrikes on the practice dummy ( 11K non crit was my max ). I think my destroyer will hurt way more in pvp with these changes and everyone but tanks will be 1-2 shotted ( 14k Takedown crit and thats not even perfect vorpal yet ).... unless I start meeting those elite players who I guess Im somehow avoiding thus far.
That is for the burst, as far as sustained dps in pve, folks pretty much said it already.
Are we sure this is the way it should be devs ? All the GWF grief was coming from PVP. Post changes most GWFs will spec for Destroyer ( the build I've been running ever since we got IV will be more and more prevalent ). Way I see it, GWFs will still rock PVP, only they will join me in the Destroyer spec. In general, the non-GWF players will start meeting more and more "squishy" GWFs like my own, who are still more tanky then them and still hit like Thor's hammer . You guys buffed my PVP and nerfed our PVE when in fact the gripe originated from Sentinels in PVP.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Oops, I forgot it was an Instigator feat as I automatically get it on every GWF anyway.
But have you considered the possibility of moving it or making another similar feat higher up in either Destroyer or Instigator as it was a group buff that made GWFs more welcome in parties? Maybe it was too strong for a Tier 1 feat, but perhaps it is reasonable for, say, a Tier 4 feat? The advantage of this being it could only be accessed by certain paths and therefore might be easier to balance.
"More welcome in parties" ?! Come on we pretty much rocked everything from pve to pvp muhahah... now we gotta try harder, you know - work for it, thats it
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
"More welcome in parties" ?! Come on we pretty much rocked everything from pve to pvp muhahah... now we gotta try harder, you know - work for it, thats it
Well yes but and it is a big BUT, the latest testing suggests a 40+% loss in DPS at the high end. So asking to keep (at least for some specs) a group buff isn't that excessive I feel.
Or maybe I am just lazy, of course
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
First and foremost is Student of the Sword. The tooltip on live is actually very misleading. Against players (who have a stat called defense remember) it actually reduces their *DEFENSE*. Critters don't actually have defense, but just a flat damage mitigation percentage. So Student of the Sword has always had a slightly different behavior on critters, which has been a 1/2/3/4/5% negative mitigation debuff that stacked 3 times. And could be applied separately by different players. Meaning you would get 15% more damage to a target for each GWF who had the feat at 3 stacks. Which is quite a bit of bonus damage considering this is a T1 feat. It was MASSIVELY out of line.
With that in mind, the change we went with was making it just provide that bonus and making it personal to prevent stacking bonuses from getting too strong. That said, it isn't unreasonable to make that buff work for teammates and not stack between multiple GWFs, but that can feel bad in its own way as well. However, that is why these things are on Preview
Have you considered that by nerfing our dmg to 1/2 of CWs that the likelihood of 1, much less more than 1 GWF in a given party will approach 0 making the stacking of SOTS and the evils thereof moot anyway?
Treat it like critical teamwork (TR feat). 1 TR with the feat adds 5% crit chance, multiples don't stack. Still not enough to get the average party to bring along a TR though, much less multiple ones. You're facing the same situation here with the current changes on PTR>
And could you please provide some feedback in the actual feedback thread? There's a lot of clutter you have to sort through to get to worthwhile posts but what would help most would be the end goal for these changes? Is the intention to reduce our dmg to 60-70% of live?
Comments
Its a nice story but what you are saying calls for major alterations - debuff this, buff that ,change this, remove that etc. Somehow I dont think balancing different roles in MM games is as simple as 1+1=2.
People have gotten way softer these days. Why play a 'role' at all if you want your toon to be able to do everyhting( do tons of dps from range, cc your opponent, survive close melee encounters, be able to escape everything). You see, this is what balancing means in your words guys. If you want that just go to CO, grab a freeform character and build a ranged tank who can nuke, with control powers, debuffs, buffs and self healing, but leave classes in NVW as different as they should be. Some have low HP, low defence, high something else and thats the way it should be, strong points and weak points. Balancing comes from us, players. Our performance in a certain role is defined by how well we utilize its strengths and how well we mask its weaknesses.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
So you think a class/spec that:
- is best point holder together with perma TR
- dealing the most damage in PvP, sometimes as much as twice as other class (run ACT on some premades to see this if you don't believe)
- tankiest spec in the game
- very mobile
- can pretty easily achieve high HP and defenses while not having to forego offense
- can perma prone CC rotation with the spikiest encounter in the game to top it off, IBS
- can slot 3 prones, Takedown, FLS, Savage Advance daily
Is a fair thing in the context of Domination on-point gameplay?
OK...
To be clear, PvE damage is one thing (I would never argue against GWFs having lots of it), but at least GWF specs Destro squish with low HP for max DPS. But PvP however is a whole different issue.
I understand where you are coming from with this. And I admit I speak solely from personal experience. My own GWF was always a Destroyer, thanks to 3 pvp items I go into battle with 26kHP and 1700 DEF. My damage is off the chart IF I crit and Im pretty mobile so much is true. The rest however is not. I cant hold a point VS equal GS people with tenacity. Im not tanky at all. I dont have high HP, def or deflect. I cant perma prone people who have Tenacity ( If you go to pvp without it you have only yourself to blame ). IBS is great too if it crits.
"- can slot 3 prones, Takedown, FLS, Savage Advance daily " - so what ? You do understand that getting hit by this particular combo is purely situational, its not something GWFs can do nonstop to everybody. SA needs your full action points, FLS has 16+ seconds cooldown. Plenty of window for a skilled player with more or less equal gear to take me down. The grief you're feeling comes from Sentinels. Please stop putting all GWFs under a common denominator. I've been taken down plenty of times by Sentinels. They are losing the damage soon anyway.
So, lets review ( for pvp ) :
- with Icewind Dale GWFs as a whole will lose damage, Sentinels will lose a ton
- with Tenacity nobody can perma prone you
- with Tenacity nobody can perma crit you into oblivion
- Destroyer GWFs never were indestructible killing machines, however, well built and geared we have great damage and if a ranged class gets in my range it should expect to fall
UPDATE: last night after a really long queue I managed to do 1 of my 4 daily pvp matches in a PUG. The opposing team had 2 HRs, 2 TRs and 1 GWF. I clearly had the best gear on the map. The HRs would do the same thing almost everytime, they would come down to contested middle point and then start attacking. Imagine their surprise when I was on top of them a second later. A few times one of them had the genius( read 'common sense') idea to go up the bridge and kite from there, the result - he made us leave the node to go after him and his team capped. Quite simple isnt it ? In the end we lost that match even with me killing them like 40 times.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
However nobody specs destro for PvP
So in all honesty, destroyers are not at all the topic of my previous post. I'm speaking purely of the cheese IV sent specs that populate the high end PvP zone.
And you can get perma proned EASILY with Tenacity. I have 20% on my CW and if a FLS hits, Takedown+IBS is next. I get critted for 7-10K IBS. But it's an encounter, it's OK to deal decent damage. What's not OK is that Threatening Rush spam also deals lots and lots of damage, and you cannot tank it, with the intent to dodge the big stuff.
To recapitulate:
- destroyers in PvP are not part of people complaints. They are uncommon and nobody plays one in the top tier echelon
- destroyer tradeoff such as squishy char with huge DPS is what makes them balanced
- perma prone to death is alive and well with Tenacity for GWF
VERY tanky char with LOTS of damage and CC - still not OK
All in all, you cannot say "GWF is OK because I play a PvEish spec and its balanced". Gotta look down, from the top - where people play very tanky IV sents.
BTW those numbers from IBS you listed are quite low, if my Destro prones you + crits you then 20K can very well be the result. That PVP match I described above was VS people with low ( lower than mine ) GS and low to no Tenacity. I know this because they were easy to prone and apart from the GWF, all were a 1 IBS KO. In short - Tenacity does work if you have enough of it.
Anyways the end of nigh indestructible/high burst IV Sents is near.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
A destroyer build geared and specced properly can PvP now. I'm testing it on preview, it's viable.
There's stuff about the sentinel tree still to change, like the 15% damage buff on marked targets. Basically, a IV sentinel can chain prone while marking you (threat rush, prone, threat rush, prone, threat rush and IBS. Which is a Whole 15% damage buff on your encounters.
With destroyer tree well used, you can have a 20% buff from Destroyer's purpose and another 10% IF you use your encounters during unstoppable. IBS feat buff is dependant on the enemy's HPs. Focused destroyer can proc or not, stacking it is not a given, expecially against TRs/ HRs. Which means that one feat from tier 2 in sentinel tree makes up for most of the damage buff in PvP (not in PvE since you get hit and the mark goes away pretty fast, unless someone else has consistently more aggro than you).
Destro's post-buff, could be balanced and strong in PvP too if used well.
Sentinels, if i got it well, will undergo a rework. Devs want, if i got it well, give them more aggro ability in PvE, and lower the damage in PvP.
- halflings and maybe dwarves can fully resist prones due to bugged racial or incorrect toooltip, I didn't want to mention it again cause it always ends up in a lot of hate, there's a reason almost every "pro" PvPer runs a halfling. Dwarves maybe not that popular yet dunno. They also have reduced CC on them, together with 20% Tenacity it's quite a lot of CC negation
- hehe 20K lol, yeah as I said Destroyers do HUGE DPS, but at least I have a chance to kill you myself if I can get in a rotation or two or maybe a daily before you get me. Not really the same with sentis, they will deflect a lot, have huge DR, pop Unstoppable after each of my encounter crits and have a huge HP pool I have to deplete, so I need lots and lots of luck to kill decent ones, and probably almost impossible to kill BiS ones.
Everything you can kill in one rotation is balanced.. everything you cant kill in one rotation is **** OP! having the distance advantage for you is not enough if u cant kill a gwf face to face.... Ohh and dwarves are only resistant to pushes that is not working in pve at all and a DOT resistance that never worked.. you think they should nerf that as well?!
Maybe some of the enchants are too strong and here i have in mind lifedrinker, but other than that i see nothing wrong with sentinels.. i die just fine in 1v1 vs TR/HR (some i kill some i die from) been on par with GF/DC(we can look at each other all day) and i can be kited by cw just long enough to receive reinforcements and die short after. A CW like HR have constant huge dmg no matter the distance and that is huge.
I think a major issue in pvp comes from the fact that ranged classes dont fully utilize their range. For example is a CW's max attack range longer than 1 stamina bar? Our greatest gap closer is SA and I think its not enough to reach a CW hittinng me from max range. If you hit me from max range and I start running, will I reach you before I deplete stamina.. or before I die ? But wait, you do not only attack, both CW and HR also cc. Plus its not always a straight line sprint, there are obstacles a GWF has to navigate to reach the CW or HR. In my own, pretty extensive pvp experience, what I observe in the majority of matches are CWs and HRs who come down to the point before starting to fight. That has nothing to do with GWF being OP imo. Your class role is to nuke from afar, death from above type of thing.
I can see it like this:
- I cap a point
- Ranged class kites me from max distance
- my options - either stay on point and die or run to them to either kill or die
- either way i leave the point
However, when they do come down to me, especially if its one on one, I rush, prone and rotate and thats that.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
There are players against who prone doesnt even work.. they wait for animation to start and dodge leaving u to hit the air, is rly rare to land one against a good tr/hr or cw.
i'm doing about 50% of my live damage
It says it all.
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
on preview i took me an average of 4 minutes to reach 1m damage.
on live, it took me an average of 1 minute 30 to reach 1m damage.
this is just bull****
Essence of Aggresion
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Instigator: None.
Destroyer: Great Weapon Focus, Deep Gash, Executioner's Style, Focused Destroyer, and Destroyer's Purpose.
Sentinel: Unstoppable Recovery or Scale Agility (whatever is ones preference), and Powerful Challenge.
Seems to be doing allright, though I need to compare Epic Dungeon runs more in the coming weeks. Thought I'd share...
You'll see that after these changes, if they are ported to live as-is, that GWF will be almost exactly back where it was before Module 2. I.E. still over powered as hell in PvP, but nerfed to oblivion in PvE.
I guess at the end of the day you should probably just play a Control Wizard. It's the only class you'll ever need for PvE, and I mean that literally. Stack 5 of them, profit. Good luck stacking 5 GWF or 5 HR's post-patch unless you are really overgeared for all content. (15-17k GS) Or how about stacking 5 GF's? Or 5 TR? Or 5 DC? It's laughable to even think about it; and even if it is doable it's so much more difficult it's not a strategy so much as stroking your ego to prove it's doable.
Even with that in mind, nothing solo's 100% of the content more efficiently or as fast as all Control Wizards. You can make arguements and say 'this or that is totally viable' and that's fine, but everyone should realize that Control Wizard does PvE best and doesn't need any help from any other class in the game to do it the best.
This is not 'balanced' by anyone's defintion. Control Wizard is, and has always been, a tank/cc/damage dealer/healer. Always. Isn't balance something that occurs when no one class is the best at all roles within the given content?
So reroll. Spend some cash. CW is a safe investment, they literally can not nerf the CW. They can't. PvE would be nearly impossible to run without CW's or massive overgearing and believe it or not Cryptic is probably aware of that fact. It would take a nearly 75% reduction in CW damage to make them even close to 'balanced' and I think everyone knows this. I think Cryptic is also aware that if they did what is required darn near everyone who plays Neverwinter would quit overnight.
So it's a rock and a hard place. Logically building up the other classes to the level of Control Wizard would make sense and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off virtually no one. But that would mean changing their PvE content, and that's hard, so let the nerfs begin!
(This is not me hating on Control Wizards, it's simply pointing out that Control Wizards are not balanced in PvE content and never have been. I have a CW. I play my CW. I find it very difficult to justify running any other class in PvE content these days because my success ratio is far higher on CW than on any other class. I can carry a team, no matter how bad they are, as Control Wizard. I can not carry a terrible team on, say, my HR. Hence the difference in successful PUG runs. My GWF could carry a team as well, although it was harder and the team could screw up what I was doing easier than they could on my CW.
Such will no longer be the case without the sustained high AoE DPS through our broke <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> bleed or the extra mitigation debuff from SotS. Giving us some wonky DPS boost attached to Unstoppable will help in heavy add fights where you are perma-unstoppable, but in the clear it's going to hit like a wet noodle if you can even catch up to the Control Wizard nuking 15 add's at a time.)
This is yet another post saying things I never said
- CW vs GWF destro is balanced because both classes have 50% chance or so to kill each other. What bad in this? If GWF catches CW, he's pretty much dead for. If CW manages to tank the TR spam and dodges a few prones while landing some shards he might win. Is this bad? Against a Senti many CW nukes would get deflected and the HP pool is way larger, plus other stuff that I won't enter in details here. You can consistently land you stuff and senti can tank most of it. Chances of CW success: close to 0 for same gear/skill/experience.
I NEVER ASKED FOR NERFS.
All I do is post my perspective on things.
OK?
OK.
Sometimes contesting a point it's way more important than nuking from afar when the point is red and looking like a full <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> doing so. Yeah you gonna die most probably, but at least you stopped the flow of points for the enemy team, hopefully reinforcements will be on the way as well. In a great team, CWs can stay more at range and it's working very good for us. But this is quite rare and 90% of the battles are on small areas, i.e. the point and its adjacent zone.
This whole thing is really simple. I have a Sent PVP GWF, I use 5/5 Deep Gash.
When I crit a target for say 10k, I get over 1k bleed ticks... You get FIVE of those ticks so that 10k just turned to 15k.
Thats a 50% dmg boost that is now going to drop WAY back to % of power. WHile I agree a 50% dmg boost to crits is pretty insane for such a low tier feat, what the DEVs need to do is realize that WITH this feat GWFs are finally attractive in PVE. In PVP, this is a major reason Sents are OP.
WIthout this, and put back to a power based system... Now GWFs are "balanced" in PVP but completely worthless in PVE...
So you need to find a way to compensate GWF AOE damage much more for it to even out.... My suggestions is to remove DR on AOE at wills, it should hit everyone for about the same, it also needs a flat damage buff on those at wills. I would also recommend removing the damage nerf to unstoppable, this speeds up attacks and now is a small damage boost to at wills.
This would HELP but wouldnt even solve the issue, ontop of that, when the DEVs adjust CWs - this may make alot of content unplayable.....
There's no time for actual parsing. We must do something immediately!
First and foremost is Student of the Sword. The tooltip on live is actually very misleading. Against players (who have a stat called defense remember) it actually reduces their *DEFENSE*. Critters don't actually have defense, but just a flat damage mitigation percentage. So Student of the Sword has always had a slightly different behavior on critters, which has been a 1/2/3/4/5% negative mitigation debuff that stacked 3 times. And could be applied separately by different players. Meaning you would get 15% more damage to a target for each GWF who had the feat at 3 stacks. Which is quite a bit of bonus damage considering this is a T1 feat. It was MASSIVELY out of line.
With that in mind, the change we went with was making it just provide that bonus and making it personal to prevent stacking bonuses from getting too strong. That said, it isn't unreasonable to make that buff work for teammates and not stack between multiple GWFs, but that can feel bad in its own way as well. However, that is why these things are on Preview
Gentlemancrush - have you posted this info in the 'Official Feedback Thread: Great Weapon Fighter Changes'?
Apologies if you have, and I just missed it.
EDIT:
If the only issue was that it was too strong for a Tier 1 feat, have you considered putting it far enough in the Destroyer line that only they can use it?
No, this is only posted in this thread. And considering it is in Instigator I don't really want to move it into the Destroyer tree
Instigator needs work too so that it can fill a specific role, but right now we want to stay focused on getting the Destroyer changes just right. SotS had to get changed because it was pretty abusive.
Oops, I forgot it was an Instigator feat as I automatically get it on every GWF anyway.
But have you considered the possibility of moving it or making another similar feat higher up in either Destroyer or Instigator as it was a group buff that made GWFs more welcome in parties? Maybe it was too strong for a Tier 1 feat, but perhaps it is reasonable for, say, a Tier 4 feat? The advantage of this being it could only be accessed by certain paths and therefore might be easier to balance.
That is for the burst, as far as sustained dps in pve, folks pretty much said it already.
Are we sure this is the way it should be devs ? All the GWF grief was coming from PVP. Post changes most GWFs will spec for Destroyer ( the build I've been running ever since we got IV will be more and more prevalent ). Way I see it, GWFs will still rock PVP, only they will join me in the Destroyer spec. In general, the non-GWF players will start meeting more and more "squishy" GWFs like my own, who are still more tanky then them and still hit like Thor's hammer
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
"More welcome in parties" ?! Come on we pretty much rocked everything from pve to pvp muhahah... now we gotta try harder, you know - work for it, thats it
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Well yes but and it is a big BUT, the latest testing suggests a 40+% loss in DPS at the high end. So asking to keep (at least for some specs) a group buff isn't that excessive I feel.
Or maybe I am just lazy, of course
Have you considered that by nerfing our dmg to 1/2 of CWs that the likelihood of 1, much less more than 1 GWF in a given party will approach 0 making the stacking of SOTS and the evils thereof moot anyway?
Treat it like critical teamwork (TR feat). 1 TR with the feat adds 5% crit chance, multiples don't stack. Still not enough to get the average party to bring along a TR though, much less multiple ones. You're facing the same situation here with the current changes on PTR>
And could you please provide some feedback in the actual feedback thread? There's a lot of clutter you have to sort through to get to worthwhile posts but what would help most would be the end goal for these changes? Is the intention to reduce our dmg to 60-70% of live?