What I read from this post: "since i can ride my bike on the highway and reach my destination at some point, there's no need for speed limit for racing cars".
You doing stuff with rangers is nice. But that wont change two facts: the metagame is all about clearing content as fast as you can, and CWs rule in this areas, thus, tanks and, to some extent, healers, are not invited to parties.
Maybe for you. Maybe not for others. No one way is the right way. If that is how you enjoy playing goody for you. But don't dare criticize others who play different then you. And yes I can do speed runs through all the dungeons on both my CW and HR. I also like doing things and making them a challenge. How boring it must be for you, to speed clear and never actually see the roses, over and over and over.
It has nothing to do with character development, it's all about pulling as much as you can and having enough lifesteal to mindlessly bulldoze the pull with massive AoE damage spells while you stand in red. Again, your GS has a very small influence over this. But I guess you'd need to play a 15-16k CW to realize it's just the class (read: you not being better with 16k) and not my supposedly godly wizard. My wizard has good gear because I can do what I do, which is pulling 50 mobs and clearing them, not the other way around. I'm just doing things any group will do at a much larger scale. And if it makes GFs and healers pointless for the average groups, I'm not even talking about my own experience...
No, it's the gear that affords you the luxury of being able to do what you do.
If a CW is only at 9-11k, then the CW does not have the luxury of spending points in something like Life Steal. They instead go into essentials like Recovery and ArPen and Regen (which every single guide in this forum says ought to be prioritized over Life Steal). Once these essentials are out of the way, then you can afford to spend points in things like Power and Life Steal. Withouit the high power and life steal, you can't do what you did.
You COULDN'T have done huge pulls as a 9k-11k CW, *and survived*. Your gear allows you to take bigger risks and get away with it.
I had even more CC and AoE DPS on my mage in WoW for example, but I couldn't do a raid in all DPS crew cause encounters specifically required tanks and healers most of the times, although there were some exceptions.
Blizzard were so smart they even created boss fights where the tank actually needed to be a mage (what an awesome experience that was...) or warlock and so on.
Diversity and inventivity vs "I'll throw some adds at you, be scared!!!". Guess who wins...
totally agree. no more discuss.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2014
Okay guys...
Not sure what everybody's issue is but the hostility in this thread is totally unnecessary. Unfortunately I don't have the time to go post by post and kill all of the insults but a few have been removed and the thread will be closed until I can.
If you can't discuss something civilly then do not respond. Insults and degrading comments will not be tolerated.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2014
Thread is open again.
Keep this discussion civil. No insults. No blaming playskill.
If you disagree with the proposed issue please politely state what you think is the issue and possible ways to solve it.
i think the most obvious case in point of devs not goign towards more CC imune enemys is the dread spire rimfire golum(ok i can understand its a solo instance, kinda understand) or the VT Rimfire golum which is curently the "endgamiest endgame instance taht are both crowd controlable and before that there was the laughable wrights in MC as a gwf id tell me team to just kill portal when they got around to it and let me tank the wright as it just adds to my ability to lifesteal and adds unstopable, but if there bored a cw can also cc the HAMSTER out of it. places were they do have CC imune mobs like FH they make them move so slow and atack so slow that u realy have to be semi afk as a cw for them to hit you, but its also the agro system lacking hard taunts sure u can add 25% or 50% agro per atack as right spec gwf or as a gf but that dosnt make up for fact that a difernt spec gwf or a cw is doing double your damage so they endup holdign all the treat anyways in a similarly geared party
the 2 most esencial skills for a cw(asuming spelstorm with EotS are recovery and lifesteal u work on armour pen once u have the lifesteal to tank the enemys cause you are going to be the tank the dps and the crowd control if u work up ap first well your the tank with little tank and the dps and control and youll get alot of use out of your soulforged and for the record my first cn my mage had just on 12kgs and we 4 maned it with 4 cw without dark enchants in defence slots (dont know what youd have there instead) i wouldnt of been able to do it i dont think
well, most of CW aoe skills have a limited number of targets... singularity have a limited number, also does steal the time and shard of endless avalanche. I think from the best AoE skills the one that doesn't have a limit is sudden storm... and about the HV debuff... from the 4 most used skills in PVE= CoI, Shard, SS , Stealtime, only stealtime activates HV effect, I've tested.
And you are right, CW is clearly better than most classes for pve, the same way rogue is clearly better than cw for pvp. The game will never be perfectly balanced, but with time, changes happen and the meta game changes.
the thing about steal time is it hit swith 3 cc hits before its damage i use shadow weaver and it fills my cc stacks to the max 3 every use, probly works same for HV
CW was nerfed in dec-jan more than enough.
Deep gash was imba since mod2.
Gwfs have to learn to use their encounters and utilize the 20% dmg boasted unstoppable, IBS and still can do great damage.
In dungeons like DK 2 gwfs will be always needed.
I've been a CW for 99% of my playtime since this game came out. And unlike perma TR or OP GWF's I can actually admit that CW is OP in PvE. This is of course to blame on the bad dungeon design to begin with. And now GWF's have become so OP that some will top CW damage and never, ever, die. And permas can just do it solo, np, WAI for sure.
Unless I farm CN I hate to have other CW's in my party, easy mode is not fun. (farming CN is not about having fun, and if I put the party together then 2 is absolute max. 3 is really for weaklings) I would love to beat Draco as the only CW in party but pretty much everyone in my guild has quit the game so I couldn't even find the people willing to go with me on such a quest.
By all means, make the CW less OP in the PvE setting, I as a CW would actually enjoy that. Instead of cowards stacking CW's they might rather go with one CW that is actually good. That is where I come in. :>
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
One of the concerns of the communities seems to be how CWs make any other classes except maybe GWFs completely useless in pve. Consequently, I made a littme video to illustrate how, as a CW, I make having tanks, clerics, rogues and rangers, just watching the show and feeling like companions on the battlefield:
The basics of this way to play the game is: pull as much as you can (ideally until your soulforge procs), and rely on AoEs with high or no targets caps, such as singularity, oppressive force, sudden storm, shard of endless avalanche, or even icy terrain.
Not sure who lied to you, but they did.
Singularity, Shards, and Steal Time are all capped at 5-15 targets, which is pretty reasonable I'd say.
Steal Time has I believe 5/5/5 for each stage of it.
The only ones that do not have a target cap you named are Oppressive Force (a Daily) a circular AoE around the caster limited in how often you get to use it, and Sudden Storm (an Encounter power) that targets things in a line much like a lightning bolt spell so limited in its area.
Not sure why you brought up Icy Terrain, that one only does around 200-500 per tick. So its not that good, it just slows things that walk on it.
The rest are all capped.
Either way... it won't change anything regardless of what you do to CWs.
AoE powers are used for AoE encounters which are 90% of whats in the dungeons and gameplay here. Single Target classes are not boosted by nerfs to AoE powers.
They were never designed to be able to take on Large amounts of mobs in the first place. All that will likely happen is people will stack larger and larger numbers of AoE classes in parties, (like GWFs) because no matter how you slice it, the other classes cannot and will not be able to function in an AoE related environment and were not designed for it. They get overwhelmed and killed. No matter what they do they're going to be Red Headed step children I that kind of environment.
You can't fix this one the way you want to... because it won't have even the slightest effect on anything. Other than perhaps the opposite one you'd want, like stacking even more of those classes in parties in order to be more effective.
Once you understand Single Target damage classes get overwhelmed in AoE relate enviroments and cannot keep up no matter what you do, you'll understand what the real problem is. Right now you have an environment that all AoE classes thrive in. Hence why GWFs and CWs are top of the charts on this and will remain so no matter what you do.
Single target and AoE damagers are used for different purposes. Nerfing or boosting one, does not affect the other. They'll still be just as unwanted in the end because they can't do the one thing that is required in this kind of environment.
Singularity, Shards, and Steal Time are all capped at 5-15 targets, which is pretty reasonable I'd say.
Steal Time has I believe 5/5/5 for each stage of it.
The only ones that do not have a target cap you named are Oppressive Force (a Daily) a circular AoE around the caster limited in how often you get to use it, and Sudden Storm (an Encounter power) that targets things in a line much like a lightning bolt spell so limited in its area.
Not sure why you brought up Icy Terrain, that one only does around 200-500 per tick. So its not that good, it just slows things that walk on it.
The rest are all capped.
Either way... it won't change anything regardless of what you do to CWs.
AoE powers are used for AoE encounters which are 90% of whats in the dungeons and gameplay here. Single Target classes are not boosted by nerfs to AoE powers.
They were never designed to be able to take on Large amounts of mobs in the first place. All that will likely happen is people will stack larger and larger numbers of AoE classes in parties, (like GWFs) because no matter how you slice it, the other classes cannot and will not be able to function in an AoE related environment and were not designed for it. They get overwhelmed and killed. No matter what they do they're going to be Red Headed step children I that kind of environment.
You can't fix this one the way you want to... because it won't have even the slightest effect on anything. Other than perhaps the opposite one you'd want, like stacking even more of those classes in parties in order to be more effective.
Once you understand Single Target damage classes get overwhelmed in AoE relate enviroments and cannot keep up no matter what you do, you'll understand what the real problem is. Right now you have an environment that all AoE classes thrive in. Hence why GWFs and CWs are top of the charts on this and will remain so no matter what you do.
Single target and AoE damagers are used for different purposes. Nerfing or boosting one, does not affect the other. They'll still be just as unwanted in the end because they can't do the one thing that is required in this kind of environment.
That's just MY rotation and it's just an example. Icy terrain is probably one of the well balanced CW encounters. Shard will hit more than 15 targets when it explodes. And sudden storm is pure madness. Up to 150k crit hits with no cap have been reported when I play my debuffing cleric. There are several issues with the wizard, but if the devs rework how lifesteal works, how debuffs stack, some targets caps (to fill the needs for one, maybe two groups pulls in pve), then the wizard will be balanced, but since I've made a thread about how debuff stacking breaks the game last month, repeating myself would serve no point.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
That's just MY rotation and it's just an example. Icy terrain is probably one of the well balanced CW encounters. .
Actually its really weak and mostly useless in most situations. Only really works for slowing mobs that are all over you. Otherwise its generally not used other than to put stacks of chill on things.
Shard will hit more than 15 targets when it explodes.
Target limit on this one is 15, so that would mean the Devs changed things and made it more than 15 at some point and not bothered to tell anyone about it... not sure they'd do that though.
And sudden storm is pure madness. Up to 150k crit hits with no cap have been reported when I play my debuffing cleric.
Yes quite frankly, but it takes about 13-14k Gear score (without Ioun Stone) and a CRIT to achieve that, and the mobs all have to be squeezed into a single short distance line, AND they have to be in a stack of at least 15 or more in that narrow line, AND they can't be moving or they move out of the area and it misses.... before the casting time finishes.
I remember in a 12.5K gs or lower GS... I was able to do 10-15k damage per mob on a crit without buffs so on 15 lined up mobs that you catch with Steal Time in perfect formation... ie a narrow enough line and close enough to catch them all.... you can crit for 150k total damage. But it takes a lot more to set that up than just throwing it out there. I think you're being disingenuous on that.
So yeah if you're good, and you're right in the thick of things with the melees getting beat on, and you're good enough to be able to use Steal Time to lock them in place before they have time to move out of the narrow line, then yes... you can do that.
That's the REAL reason that one has no target cap. Because in order to do what you're talking about you have to make the stars align so to speak. But you can't just toss it out there and expect to do that, you actually have to be very good at it and take the time to set up your targets... and then need a crit on top of that.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Within usual team of 3 CW/DC/GWF, Sudden Storm crits for about 30-70K (yes this is pretty much the range). Exceptional, EXTREMELY RARE SSs when you get fully debuffed mobs may go up to 120K-150 or so (R10s, Perfects, full PvE build).
Averages for SS are way way way lower
Sure, nerf CWs though now because they can crit high. It's the natural thing to do after GWF and HR, bring all into the ground. Don't forget about TRs. Gotta nerf them yet again too.
I know that was meant sarcastically, but ironically it would actually make the game more balanced in PvE and PvP.
No it won't it will just end up hurting all the newbies again... as usual and making the dungeons that much harder for other classes.
Like the above poster who was under the mistaken assumption the average CW hits for 150k damage with sudden storm just found out..... That's only in uber gear at topped out maxed out enchants and gear few to no one is likely to see.
The 12.5k gear scores CWs only crit for 10-15k per target...
....not 150k per target... and they only way they're going to get 150k out of that spell is if the stars align for them or they're really good at setting it up.
That's the uber geared players with perfect gear no one is going to get without paying a great deal of real money.
CW uncapped: icy terrain, sudden storm, oppressive force
GWF has mighty leap, punishing charge, avalnche of steel, and the knock from savage advance
TR has wicked reminder
GF has every at-will uncapped even.
Anyone care to add HR? I believe they have 2-3 and GFs may have more as well. Sorry clerics can only hit up to 30 with an ability so I did not include them, since they are not uncapped...
So why are we only discussing CW abilities that are uncapped?
Actually its really weak and mostly useless in most situations. Only really works for slowing mobs that are all over you. Otherwise its generally not used other than to put stacks of chill on things.
It applies plaguefire and procs Stormspell. I'm pretty sure it's one of the powers that apply the HV debuff as well.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
It applies plaguefire and procs Stormspell. I'm pretty sure it's one of the powers that apply the HV debuff as well.
Yes but once again thats only with items and enchants that cost a good 250k per. And then its only 8%... not some uber ungodly number of damage.
The actual spell does no real damage. About 200-500 damage per tick and slows the target that walks through it. That doesn't exactly have much effect on 500k health point mobs. That's it and its rarely used for any kind of damage because... it doesn't do any real damage. Hence, uncapped.
Why this spell of all spells was even brought up is laughable.
Yes but once again thats only with items and enchants that cost a good 250k per. And then its only 8%... not some uber ungodly number of damage.
The actual spell does no real damage. About 200-500 damage per tick and slows the target that walks through it. That doesn't exactly have much effect on 500k health point mobs. That's it and its rarely used for any kind of damage because... it doesn't do any real damage. Hence, uncapped.
Why this spell of all spells was even brought up is laughable.
I didn't pay a single AD for my HV set or my Stormspell feat. I paid 110k for a each of the lesser Plague Fires, so four of those was about 440k. I refined all of that using trash from the ground. The Coal Wards were pre-mod 2, but you can factor in three of those. Yes, expensive but not so much for the playstyle that Dio was talking about (and that I run with him doing)
The basics of this way to play the game is: pull as much as you can (ideally until your soulforge procs), and rely on AoEs with high or no targets caps, such as singularity, oppressive force, sudden storm, shard of endless avalanche, or even icy terrain. And when you pull 50 mobs, any AoE spell will heal you for more than your max HP as a wizard, provided you have over 1000 lifesteal (and ideally endless consumption), thus negating the need for a healer.
So the topic of discussion isn't fresh 60s with nothing in their enhancement slots. When you're pulling that much, you will see mobs freeze solid from Icy Terrain and you will see a ton of them getting Plague Fire debuffs and getting hit with Storm Spells. You will see them packed so densely that the screen fills up with numbers when Sudden Storm goes off and all of that debuffing stacking on top of each other matters a lot when you and/or another wizard throws off Oppressive Force and most of the room gets gibbed.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
No it won't it will just end up hurting all the newbies again... as usual and making the dungeons that much harder for other classes.
Like the above poster who was under the mistaken assumption the average CW hits for 150k damage with sudden storm just found out..... That's only in uber gear at topped out maxed out enchants and gear few to no one is likely to see.
The 12.5k gear scores CWs only crit for 10-15k per target...
....not 150k per target... and they only way they're going to get 150k out of that spell is if the stars align for them or they're really good at setting it up.
That's the uber geared players with perfect gear no one is going to get without paying a great deal of real money.
I'm so sick of this excuse...
Yes of course having a 10 mobs cap to oppressive force & shardplosion, a 5 targets cap to sudden storm, and scaling down the debuffs stacking and reworking lifesteal so that it doesn't heal you for more than your max HP will hurt new players, because they're the ones pulling entire CN rooms door to door and aoe'ing the **** out of the huge pull, self healing for 50-70K hp per hit and nuking the whole dungeon running to the next door with soulforge tanking because that's what you do during levelling and that's how the game is meant to be played, they said that in the tutorial... Yeh. So credible.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
So the topic of discussion isn't fresh 60s with nothing in their enhancement slots. When you're pulling that much, you will see mobs freeze solid from Icy Terrain and you will see a ton of them getting Plague Fire debuffs and getting hit with Storm Spells. You will see them packed so densely that the screen fills up with numbers when Sudden Storm goes off and all of that debuffing stacking on top of each other matters a lot when you and/or another wizard throws off Oppressive Force and most of the room gets gibbed.
Yeah but that's pretty meaningless.
That spell could do absolutely no damage which is really the case (because it doesn't do any damage).... but with all the items he's got procing the damage..... it has nothing to do with the CWs actual powers and everything to do with the Items he's got. How exactly does this make a 200-500 damage Dot per tick something uber?
The spell itself is just a debuff and slow spell, it has no other effect than that and a very weak DoT.
What you're talking about has little to do with any CW powers and more to do with the gear he's wearing that any other class can get.
The 12.5k CW only crits for 10-15k per target with Sudden Storm. Normal damage at that GS is a base of 5000-6500.
So generally you're doing about 5000-6500 per target.
Oppressive Force is a Daily power that can only be used if you gain enough action points for it. So what... once after you've gained enough AP?
You are talking about gear related issues, not the actual CW damage.
The only thing you're talking about is UBER characters with gear no normal player has.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Don't worry I'm getting sick of your wannabe BS too, I already know you're not going to accomplish anything.
You are SO stuck on uber geared over geared characters you are not and have not considered the effect on normal players who DO NOT live in that UBER WORLD.
Its all you know. You have no comprehension of the average player and the actual effect of these powers WITHOUT that kind of supergear. Because you have no idea how this stuff actually works or fits togather on a lower level playing field where this stuff is unheard of. And even less understanding of how this affects the normal groups who do not live in that world.
Don't worry I'm getting sick of your wannabe BS too, I already know you're not going to accomplish anything.
You are SO stuck on uber geared over geared characters you are not and have not considered the effect on normal players who DO NOT live in that UBER WORLD.
Its all you know. You have no comprehension of the average player and the actual effect of these powers WITHOUT that kind of supergear. Because you have no idea how this stuff actually works or fits togather on a lower level playing field where this stuff is unheard of. And even less understanding of how this affects the normal groups who do not live in that world.
Funny. There's also a hard fact. Groups of more than 10 npcs are extremely rare. And When I say extremely rare i'm of course not talking about the zombie room in CN, which is a well known exception, and may require a tank if everything isn't instantly nuked. That would be outrageous to take a tank to CN, I know, but for the rest of the game, if you play carefully and use OK builds and do some damage (that solves the "boss fight" exception) you don't get more than 10 npcs at once.
Just FYI my CW has been 11k for more than 6 months with no weapon enchantment at all, before module 3. So I kinda know a few things about low GS wizards, and guess why? All I'm doing now is bigger pulls. But I was still able to nuke 30 mobs easily when i was 11k and had a pvp spec. The only difference I see is that I'm just doing it at a bigger scale. Bigger scale. Not different playing style.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Funny. There's also a hard fact. Groups of more than 10 npcs are extremely rare. And When I say extremely rare i'm of course not talking about the zombie room in CN, which is a well known exception, and may require a tank if everything isn't instantly nuked. That would be outrageous to take a tank to CN, I know, but for the rest of the game, if you play carefully and use OK builds and do some damage (that solves the "boss fight" exception) you don't get more than 10 npcs at once..
Oh you mean like... say... Frozen Heart, or perhaps... Spellplague, or perhaps, Malabog's Castle, or Valindra's Tower where there are many encounters that are higher than 10 mobs?
Yes I know them well.
.....And these are outside of CN.
I know better than that because I've run them too.
That spell could do absolutely no damage which is really the case (because it doesn't do any damage).... but with all the items he's got procing the damage..... it has nothing to do with the CWs actual powers and everything to do with the Items he's got. How exactly does this make a 200-500 damage Dot per tick something uber?
The spell itself is just a debuff and slow spell, it has no other effect than that and a very weak DoT.
What you're talking about has little to do with any CW powers and more to do with the gear he's wearing that any other class can get.
The 12.5k CW only crits for 10-15k per target with Sudden Storm. Normal damage at that GS is a base of 5000-6500.
So generally you're doing about 5000-6500 per target.
Oppressive Force is a Daily power that can only be used if you gain enough action points for it. So what... once after you've gained enough AP?
You are talking about gear related issues, not the actual CW damage.
The only thing you're talking about is UBER characters with gear no normal player has.
You claimed that Icy Terrain has no use other than applying Chill. I'm fairly certain I've detailed other uses, oh and it has good AP generation as well. You are the one who has suddenly started demanding proof that the spell is Uber when I never said it was. I said it was useful and it is.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Comments
Maybe for you. Maybe not for others. No one way is the right way. If that is how you enjoy playing goody for you. But don't dare criticize others who play different then you. And yes I can do speed runs through all the dungeons on both my CW and HR. I also like doing things and making them a challenge. How boring it must be for you, to speed clear and never actually see the roses, over and over and over.
No, it's the gear that affords you the luxury of being able to do what you do.
If a CW is only at 9-11k, then the CW does not have the luxury of spending points in something like Life Steal. They instead go into essentials like Recovery and ArPen and Regen (which every single guide in this forum says ought to be prioritized over Life Steal). Once these essentials are out of the way, then you can afford to spend points in things like Power and Life Steal. Withouit the high power and life steal, you can't do what you did.
You COULDN'T have done huge pulls as a 9k-11k CW, *and survived*. Your gear allows you to take bigger risks and get away with it.
totally agree. no more discuss.
Not sure what everybody's issue is but the hostility in this thread is totally unnecessary. Unfortunately I don't have the time to go post by post and kill all of the insults but a few have been removed and the thread will be closed until I can.
If you can't discuss something civilly then do not respond. Insults and degrading comments will not be tolerated.
Keep this discussion civil. No insults. No blaming playskill.
If you disagree with the proposed issue please politely state what you think is the issue and possible ways to solve it.
Deep gash was imba since mod2.
Gwfs have to learn to use their encounters and utilize the 20% dmg boasted unstoppable, IBS and still can do great damage.
In dungeons like DK 2 gwfs will be always needed.
Unless I farm CN I hate to have other CW's in my party, easy mode is not fun. (farming CN is not about having fun, and if I put the party together then 2 is absolute max. 3 is really for weaklings) I would love to beat Draco as the only CW in party but pretty much everyone in my guild has quit the game so I couldn't even find the people willing to go with me on such a quest.
By all means, make the CW less OP in the PvE setting, I as a CW would actually enjoy that. Instead of cowards stacking CW's they might rather go with one CW that is actually good. That is where I come in. :>
Not sure who lied to you, but they did.
Singularity, Shards, and Steal Time are all capped at 5-15 targets, which is pretty reasonable I'd say.
Steal Time has I believe 5/5/5 for each stage of it.
The only ones that do not have a target cap you named are Oppressive Force (a Daily) a circular AoE around the caster limited in how often you get to use it, and Sudden Storm (an Encounter power) that targets things in a line much like a lightning bolt spell so limited in its area.
Not sure why you brought up Icy Terrain, that one only does around 200-500 per tick. So its not that good, it just slows things that walk on it.
The rest are all capped.
Either way... it won't change anything regardless of what you do to CWs.
AoE powers are used for AoE encounters which are 90% of whats in the dungeons and gameplay here. Single Target classes are not boosted by nerfs to AoE powers.
They were never designed to be able to take on Large amounts of mobs in the first place. All that will likely happen is people will stack larger and larger numbers of AoE classes in parties, (like GWFs) because no matter how you slice it, the other classes cannot and will not be able to function in an AoE related environment and were not designed for it. They get overwhelmed and killed. No matter what they do they're going to be Red Headed step children I that kind of environment.
You can't fix this one the way you want to... because it won't have even the slightest effect on anything. Other than perhaps the opposite one you'd want, like stacking even more of those classes in parties in order to be more effective.
Once you understand Single Target damage classes get overwhelmed in AoE relate enviroments and cannot keep up no matter what you do, you'll understand what the real problem is. Right now you have an environment that all AoE classes thrive in. Hence why GWFs and CWs are top of the charts on this and will remain so no matter what you do.
Single target and AoE damagers are used for different purposes. Nerfing or boosting one, does not affect the other. They'll still be just as unwanted in the end because they can't do the one thing that is required in this kind of environment.
That's just MY rotation and it's just an example. Icy terrain is probably one of the well balanced CW encounters. Shard will hit more than 15 targets when it explodes. And sudden storm is pure madness. Up to 150k crit hits with no cap have been reported when I play my debuffing cleric. There are several issues with the wizard, but if the devs rework how lifesteal works, how debuffs stack, some targets caps (to fill the needs for one, maybe two groups pulls in pve), then the wizard will be balanced, but since I've made a thread about how debuff stacking breaks the game last month, repeating myself would serve no point.
Actually its really weak and mostly useless in most situations. Only really works for slowing mobs that are all over you. Otherwise its generally not used other than to put stacks of chill on things.
Target limit on this one is 15, so that would mean the Devs changed things and made it more than 15 at some point and not bothered to tell anyone about it... not sure they'd do that though.
Yes quite frankly, but it takes about 13-14k Gear score (without Ioun Stone) and a CRIT to achieve that, and the mobs all have to be squeezed into a single short distance line, AND they have to be in a stack of at least 15 or more in that narrow line, AND they can't be moving or they move out of the area and it misses.... before the casting time finishes.
I remember in a 12.5K gs or lower GS... I was able to do 10-15k damage per mob on a crit without buffs so on 15 lined up mobs that you catch with Steal Time in perfect formation... ie a narrow enough line and close enough to catch them all.... you can crit for 150k total damage. But it takes a lot more to set that up than just throwing it out there. I think you're being disingenuous on that.
So yeah if you're good, and you're right in the thick of things with the melees getting beat on, and you're good enough to be able to use Steal Time to lock them in place before they have time to move out of the narrow line, then yes... you can do that.
That's the REAL reason that one has no target cap. Because in order to do what you're talking about you have to make the stars align so to speak. But you can't just toss it out there and expect to do that, you actually have to be very good at it and take the time to set up your targets... and then need a crit on top of that.
Averages for SS are way way way lower
Sure, nerf CWs though now because they can crit high. It's the natural thing to do after GWF and HR, bring all into the ground. Don't forget about TRs. Gotta nerf them yet again too.
Just don't forget to buff PVP CW, nerf permastealth TR and also nerf GWF in PVP
I know that was meant sarcastically, but ironically it would actually make the game more balanced in PvE and PvP.
As a CW I'd be fine with this.
No it won't it will just end up hurting all the newbies again... as usual and making the dungeons that much harder for other classes.
Like the above poster who was under the mistaken assumption the average CW hits for 150k damage with sudden storm just found out..... That's only in uber gear at topped out maxed out enchants and gear few to no one is likely to see.
The 12.5k gear scores CWs only crit for 10-15k per target...
....not 150k per target... and they only way they're going to get 150k out of that spell is if the stars align for them or they're really good at setting it up.
That's the uber geared players with perfect gear no one is going to get without paying a great deal of real money.
GWF has mighty leap, punishing charge, avalnche of steel, and the knock from savage advance
TR has wicked reminder
GF has every at-will uncapped even.
Anyone care to add HR? I believe they have 2-3 and GFs may have more as well. Sorry clerics can only hit up to 30 with an ability so I did not include them, since they are not uncapped...
So why are we only discussing CW abilities that are uncapped?
Yes but once again thats only with items and enchants that cost a good 250k per. And then its only 8%... not some uber ungodly number of damage.
The actual spell does no real damage. About 200-500 damage per tick and slows the target that walks through it. That doesn't exactly have much effect on 500k health point mobs. That's it and its rarely used for any kind of damage because... it doesn't do any real damage. Hence, uncapped.
Why this spell of all spells was even brought up is laughable.
While we're out asking to nerf stuff, maybe slide that one in to do "request list" could ya?
So the topic of discussion isn't fresh 60s with nothing in their enhancement slots. When you're pulling that much, you will see mobs freeze solid from Icy Terrain and you will see a ton of them getting Plague Fire debuffs and getting hit with Storm Spells. You will see them packed so densely that the screen fills up with numbers when Sudden Storm goes off and all of that debuffing stacking on top of each other matters a lot when you and/or another wizard throws off Oppressive Force and most of the room gets gibbed.
I'm so sick of this excuse...
Yes of course having a 10 mobs cap to oppressive force & shardplosion, a 5 targets cap to sudden storm, and scaling down the debuffs stacking and reworking lifesteal so that it doesn't heal you for more than your max HP will hurt new players, because they're the ones pulling entire CN rooms door to door and aoe'ing the **** out of the huge pull, self healing for 50-70K hp per hit and nuking the whole dungeon running to the next door with soulforge tanking because that's what you do during levelling and that's how the game is meant to be played, they said that in the tutorial... Yeh. So credible.
Yeah but that's pretty meaningless.
That spell could do absolutely no damage which is really the case (because it doesn't do any damage).... but with all the items he's got procing the damage..... it has nothing to do with the CWs actual powers and everything to do with the Items he's got. How exactly does this make a 200-500 damage Dot per tick something uber?
The spell itself is just a debuff and slow spell, it has no other effect than that and a very weak DoT.
What you're talking about has little to do with any CW powers and more to do with the gear he's wearing that any other class can get.
The 12.5k CW only crits for 10-15k per target with Sudden Storm. Normal damage at that GS is a base of 5000-6500.
So generally you're doing about 5000-6500 per target.
Oppressive Force is a Daily power that can only be used if you gain enough action points for it. So what... once after you've gained enough AP?
You are talking about gear related issues, not the actual CW damage.
The only thing you're talking about is UBER characters with gear no normal player has.
Don't worry I'm getting sick of your wannabe BS too, I already know you're not going to accomplish anything.
You are SO stuck on uber geared over geared characters you are not and have not considered the effect on normal players who DO NOT live in that UBER WORLD.
Its all you know. You have no comprehension of the average player and the actual effect of these powers WITHOUT that kind of supergear. Because you have no idea how this stuff actually works or fits togather on a lower level playing field where this stuff is unheard of. And even less understanding of how this affects the normal groups who do not live in that world.
Funny. There's also a hard fact. Groups of more than 10 npcs are extremely rare. And When I say extremely rare i'm of course not talking about the zombie room in CN, which is a well known exception, and may require a tank if everything isn't instantly nuked. That would be outrageous to take a tank to CN, I know, but for the rest of the game, if you play carefully and use OK builds and do some damage (that solves the "boss fight" exception) you don't get more than 10 npcs at once.
Just FYI my CW has been 11k for more than 6 months with no weapon enchantment at all, before module 3. So I kinda know a few things about low GS wizards, and guess why? All I'm doing now is bigger pulls. But I was still able to nuke 30 mobs easily when i was 11k and had a pvp spec. The only difference I see is that I'm just doing it at a bigger scale. Bigger scale. Not different playing style.
Oh you mean like... say... Frozen Heart, or perhaps... Spellplague, or perhaps, Malabog's Castle, or Valindra's Tower where there are many encounters that are higher than 10 mobs?
Yes I know them well.
.....And these are outside of CN.
I know better than that because I've run them too.
Not too much of a nerf to CW per se, but it is a start and has increased viability of other classes
You claimed that Icy Terrain has no use other than applying Chill. I'm fairly certain I've detailed other uses, oh and it has good AP generation as well. You are the one who has suddenly started demanding proof that the spell is Uber when I never said it was. I said it was useful and it is.