Combat TR vs Perma TR

highpothesis

If they went 1v1 who do you think would most likely come out on top? Given that both players are highly skilled and highly geared.

Combat TR = P.vorp/high hp/deflect/burst dmg/not reliant on stealth
Perma TR = P.Bile/high hp/recovery/DOT/heavily reliant on stealth
(of course this is a generalisation, each person stacks different things)

Note: I run a Combat TR and have dabbled on the Perma Bile which was fun for a little while but switched back. Pre patch my Combat TR had no problems against Perma TRs but now its really hard to take them down 1v1.

Also, what build do you guys run? and what strategies do you use to go against either one?
Seems like Perma TRs are where its at right now and well i can switch back but really I'd rather not lol.

larzynt

I think that every smart player Stealth based (not a real Perma-stealth, who use Bait and Switch) just swapped their stats. So it's easy to reach A MINIMUN of 30% deflect / atleast 28k hp and still have 1500+ regen. Their crit rate it's kinda nerfed, but with barkshield you wont be able to kill him in 1vs1 fight, just because it's studied to be the better class in 1vs1 fights.

I have a stealth based TR, who can easy kill every class in 1vs1 fight, but in 2vs2 or 3vs3 situations this kind of TR is kinda useless.

"Combat TR" it's WAY BETTER in 2vs2 or 2vs3 situations.

highpothesis

I think im still in denial that the Combat TR can't go toe to toe against a stealth based/perma TR. But your right, it seems to be that build will often come out on top in a 1v1.
I like to compare 1v1 because I am usually put in that situation as the TR class usually goes for the back capping/stealing of a node and I would need to contest.

zokir

I run a hybrid build that focuses on both damage and survivability. I stack HP, regen, and defensive stats, but use vorpal & arpen to deal large amounts of burst damage. Before the patch, I would've used an SS, IS, ITC rotation against other TRs, as is the norm for most 1v1s. After the patch, I'd use SS, PoB, ITC against another vorpal TR or SS, lashing, ITC against a bilethorn TR.
For TRs that don't use bilethorn, the only hope to beat bile TR really is that you get a good lashing crit before you're flurried to death.

I love this build in premades- it's wonderful and definitely gets the job done, but for 1v1s there's just no way that a TR with a vorpal can beat an equally geared and skilled TR with a bilethorn.

If your bilethorn TR gets beaten by a vorpal TR, you should definitely think about changing up your playstyle.

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zokir

magenubbie wrote: »

I think you slightly underestimate vorpal TRs. Either that or for a while now I run into inexperienced perma stealths only.
I personally refuse to run permastealth because I think TR is an attacking class and should not be hiding forever, so my Disheartening strike is my answer to your stealth. If I see a TR even for a second, he's gonna get a dagger through his head and possibly a VP if I get the chance since that works on stealthed people just as well. Even if I have to risk my own life to do it. Exposing an annoying stealth based character is more valuable than my own life. And with the crit rate DS has for me, most MI don't stay in stealth much anymore after I see them once.

Maybe I'm one of the few people who likes the wth-happened style of a whisperknife better than the basic where-are-you-MI, but lately perma stealths don't really scare me as much as they used to before I changed to whisperknife. And my TR is still running a vorpal.

I run a vorpal TR as well, if you read the rest of my post.
I've fought countless bilethorn TRs. Win some, lose most. Bilethorn is an absolute advantage over vorpal.
Geared bilethorn TRs should stomp vorpal TRs. If they don't, they have some problems. Simple as that.

ukspawn

9/10 times stealth will win over combat, it's pretty much a given, any half decent player merely has to rely on the simple mechanics and rotations of a permanent stealth build and there is very very little a combat TR can do.

My main is a combat TR I've fought many 1 on 1 scenarios with good and not so good players, the hardest 1v1 has always been against a stealth based TR. It's not impossible and I've had my share of really close fights and sometimes wins but it will always be an uphill struggle against stealth based.

Even now post patch with tenacity and healing depression I'd rather (and would do better) face tanking 2 gwfs than a perma rogue.

Just to note my examples are based on a player skill for skill level. As with all classes and builds some players are quite frankly new to what they're doing or, terrible.

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slushpsycho

Combat TR= mobile free kill.

I would take a destroyer GWF over a Combat TR anytime anyday.

todesfaelle

Unless this "Combat TR" can dish out bursts that could take out a permastealth in one go, Stealth-based TR's will tend to triumph over non-Stealth TR's.

I've been playing the TR class since beta, and what I can say is at some point all of us are reliant on Stealth because we are inherently squishy. This current meta makes Deflect builds more viable thanks to the blanket 10% mitigation buff, but it still does not remove our inherent weak defenses. In the end, no matter how much people try, we can never be like Combat HR's who can stack and spec for Defense, Deflect and Burst easily (because they have VERY good sets, feats and class features that support this). Emulating another class' play style will simply make us fall prey to other classes who are built to make the most out of their Class Mechanics.

These "Combat" TR's will tend to fall prey to Permastealth Rogues, simply because Stealth is the main mode of defense for a class with inherently weak defenses; a reality we cannot deny, nor change efficiently.

rustlord

highpothesis wrote: »

If they went 1v1 ... highly skilled and highly geared.

Combat TR = P.vorp/high hp/deflect/burst dmg/not reliant on stealth
Perma TR = P.Bile/high hp/recovery/DOT/heavily reliant on stealth

The Perma Bilethorn TR will win. ^

Though equal in skill and gear, barring choices of stats and powers, permastealth biles carry the advantage in slow deterioration warfare, whereas vorpal low precision coup de main (single blow) TR relies on higher risk maneuvers against a target you can't see most of the time. Duelist Flurry procs Bilethorn poison twice at 4 and 8 seconds -- I've tested it several times and still think it's a bug, and correct me if it has been fixed -- which accounts for 2 x 12 x 16% weapon damage. Seeing how DF is easier to connect from stealth, this part is a no brainer.

zokir wrote: »

... The only hope to beat bile TR really is that you get a good lashing crit before you're flurried to death.

That was true before tenacity and critical resistance were introduced to the game.

todesfaelle wrote: »

This current meta makes Deflect builds more viable thanks to the blanket 10% mitigation buff, but it still does not remove our inherent weak defenses.

...

These "Combat" TR's will tend to fall prey to Permastealth Rogues, simply because Stealth is the main mode of defense for a class with inherently weak defenses; a reality we cannot deny, nor change efficiently.

I am a Combat "Reflect" TR and fare better than the run-of-the-mill kind on a 1v1 against permastealth.

Combat TR = P.lightning/higher deflect/higher mitigation/Fey Thistle/not reliant on stealth

As a combat TR I have two ways of countering stealth:

1. If they use bait and switch, P. lightning arcs reveal the general direction of the stealthed TR, dealing small damage to help eat away the stealth bar. The same is true if a nearby opponent is present, i.e. 2v1 against permastealth and one other.

2. Fey Thistle - every deflected attack deals 400 damage as reflect damage, affected by mitigation, and helps eat away at stealth. ITC procs the reflect at 100% uptime, can deal up to 4800 dmg in one deflected round of DF.

Permastealth uses low DoT harassment tactics. In my experience, the most effective way is to reflect more of that damage back to the hidden TR while trying to survive than go out of your way to hunt down the enemy.

I hope somebody can find my strategies useful, and can improve upon them. Permastealth is the FotM build, yes, but it's not the universal strongest build in all situations.

todesfaelle

I like it, very intelligent use of P. Lightning. I've seen other TR's recently who run Lightning and this is probably the reason why. I like the philosophy behind it and I think you should make a guide out of it. A permastealth's ally will become his own downfall - very entertaining idea. I think I'll get another dagger so I can slot a Lightning on it. I personally find this strategy useful, so thank you very much for sharing it.

However, there are many types of permastealth rogues. I'm guessing you want to counter the most commonly seen build which are those who use "low DoT harassment" tactics, and rightfully so, you can definitely counter them using this unique build of yours. I personally think that the sneaky people who use Gloaming Cut for their bursts, rather than DF, will not be affected much by the Fey Thistle strategy. Not to mention Fey Thistle is affected by mitigation. So in essence the 4800 you can dish out via Fey Thistle procs from a full salvo of DF will still get lowered by a base amount of 10% due to Tenacity. But most rogues will have 20% - 25% additional mitigation from Defense, and if they have Tenacity gear slotted, that's an additional 10% to 12% more Tenacity for a total of 20% to 22% if we were to include the Tenacity blanket. That's roughly ~40% reduced from the base.

I agree that permastealth is not the universal strongest build. It's just efficient simply because it aims to incorporate the TR's class mechanic at its best; which is pretty much our identity.

highpothesis

Thank you guys for all the reponses thus far. Definitely read all of them.

I played against a pretty good Perma Bile TR today and although we won, he killed me more times than i liked.

@rustlord
Interesting use of the lightning enchant. Something I considered before as well is the lifedrinker.
How has your Combat TR fared against the Perma Biles so far? Do you find yourself to have the upper hand most of the time?

vasdamas

Permastealth is a rogue under the pressure of the system and a slave of PvE/PvP class disbalance.
Combat rogue is a rogue hipster :P


And IMO, permastealth rogue would win the battle.

rustlord

todesfaelle wrote: »

snip

I appreciate the encouragement, my friend. Yes, Fey Thistle is affected by mitigation. Against another TR, if highly geared, I would expect a dps of about 2.5k from sponging a DF. The trick lies in not simply taking damage through ITC, but starting a flurry of my own as I go head to head with him. As result I've dealt more damage than him through mitigation/deflect/tenacity even considering his poison damage/bleeds.

I've had interests in sharing this build, though reluctant. I thought it was rather unique. I must trust my writing skills to better convey the elements of the build. I'll try my best.

highpothesis wrote: »

@rustlord
Interesting use of the lightning enchant. Something I considered before as well is the lifedrinker.
How has your Combat TR fared against the Perma Biles so far? Do you find yourself to have the upper hand most of the time?

I wouldn't get ahead of myself beyond saying, I have managed to find an even battle everytime I faced a permastealth bilethorn TR. I win more 1v1 against perma than I lose (but that's mostly because my gear is on the high end). If we were equal in gs, I'm happy to say that skill is the only determining factor whether it is the other TR or I, who wins.

willsommers

Combat rogue is a rogue hipster :P

"Combat rogue" is the original rogue. The striker rogue that does damage. That is until Cryptic decided that a burst striker class should not do burst damage. Because you know, tank fighter class topping damage made sense too?

godlysoul2

Give the combat TR bilethorn + PoTB and I see no reason why it couldn't win with proper timing if built right.

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rustlord

It leaves a large margin for assumption to pit stealth-based Bilethorn TR against a Striker "combat" Vorpal TR. The Permastealth role is to capture the far node while minimizing risks of dying. The Striker rogue eliminates opposition in middle node and home node, and (hard and fast rule) should only capture enemy flag if he's the only person in the team that can--and capturing that flag is an absolute necessity. When it's not, striker rogue just wants to kill things.

Let's go over what a Permastealth can't do: Can't effectively assist in home node to kill a monster sentinel. Can't quickly eliminate 3-4 enemies in a group fight in middle node. Not as effectively as the Striker TR. What can it do? Permastealth can kill the Striker with ease.

xyntrynz1a

I have 2 Main Hand Daggers right now [This is Toadesfaella's fault]

Master Assassin's Dagger
P.Vorpal
Rank 8 Radiant

Master Assassin's Dagger of the Drake[Real easy to get if you do Pirate King during Dungeon Delves]
P.Bilethorn
Rank 7 Radiant[Working to get up to a Rank 8]

I can hit C, then right click and change real fast in PvP to adjust to the Game.

I got both off the auction house. Actually worked up the Vorpal and snagged a great deal on the Bilethorn pre-patch and months ago. Both cost me months of time farming to sell stuff for AD.

jinadu

todesfaelle wrote: »

Unless this "Combat TR" can dish out bursts that could take out a permastealth in one go, Stealth-based TR's will tend to triumph over non-Stealth TR's.

I've been playing the TR class since beta, and what I can say is at some point all of us are reliant on Stealth because we are inherently squishy. This current meta makes Deflect builds more viable thanks to the blanket 10% mitigation buff, but it still does not remove our inherent weak defenses. In the end, no matter how much people try, we can never be like Combat HR's who can stack and spec for Defense, Deflect and Burst easily (because they have VERY good sets, feats and class features that support this). Emulating another class' play style will simply make us fall prey to other classes who are built to make the most out of their Class Mechanics.

These "Combat" TR's will tend to fall prey to Permastealth Rogues, simply because Stealth is the main mode of defense for a class with inherently weak defenses; a reality we cannot deny, nor change efficiently.

No idea what your talking about... I have not had a problem defeating a Perma-stealth TR yet.
In my honest opinion they are lame, no damage dealing cowards that hide and run whole time.
Its easy for me to defeat them because they are so Effing predictable.

reiwulf

cowards because they use stealth? wow, I guess GWF that use unstoppable are wrong for using their skills too?

todesfaelle

jinadu wrote: »

No idea what your talking about... I have not had a problem defeating a Perma-stealth TR yet.
In my honest opinion they are lame, no damage dealing cowards that hide and run whole time.
Its easy for me to defeat them because they are so Effing predictable.

Cool. You sound very strong.

jinadu

reiwulf wrote: »

cowards because they use stealth? wow, I guess GWF that use unstoppable are wrong for using their skills too?

I say this because they use it to no end to the extent where they rely on it so much. If this is your only means of winning the battle then yes, coward.

ratharim

jinadu wrote: »

I say this because they use it to no end to the extent where they rely on it so much. If this is your only means of winning the battle then yes, coward.

Those wizards cowardly casting spells!

jinadu

todesfaelle wrote: »

Cool. You sound very strong.

Not really... Like I said, they are so predictable, im a TR too so its not hard for me to anticipate what they are going to do and when.

twilightwatchman

jinadu wrote: »

I have not had a problem defeating a Perma-stealth TR yet.
In my honest opinion they are lame, no damage dealing cowards that hide and run whole time.

It's not possible to be a 'coward' in a video game. Especially in a game mode that relies on capturing points rather than scoring kills.

HTH

xcessiveforce40

Using the skills and encounters provided to your class doesn't make you a "coward". That's what they are their for. I gave a TR hassle last night for killing me with a daily. However one of the other teams members had just given me grief moments before for killing them with a daily. PVP is a great place to let go, vent a bit, jab, and use "cowardly" encounters and dailies to vanquish the other team and hopefully cap points.

***I think its just nice that a 14k Tr can now take down a 10k Sent GWF. Slowly moving towards a more "balanced" game. LOL

godlysoul2

todesfaelle wrote: »

Unless this "Combat TR" can dish out bursts that could take out a permastealth in one go, Stealth-based TR's will tend to triumph over non-Stealth TR's.

I've been playing the TR class since beta, and what I can say is at some point all of us are reliant on Stealth because we are inherently squishy. This current meta makes Deflect builds more viable thanks to the blanket 10% mitigation buff, but it still does not remove our inherent weak defenses. In the end, no matter how much people try, we can never be like Combat HR's who can stack and spec for Defense, Deflect and Burst easily (because they have VERY good sets, feats and class features that support this). Emulating another class' play style will simply make us fall prey to other classes who are built to make the most out of their Class Mechanics.

These "Combat" TR's will tend to fall prey to Permastealth Rogues, simply because Stealth is the main mode of defense for a class with inherently weak defenses; a reality we cannot deny, nor change efficiently.

What are your thoughts about deflect/defense non-stealth based TR running bilethorn and PoTB? I'd be willing to bet combat TR would come out on top more than stealth based TR in that situation.

jinadu

twilightwatchman wrote: »

It's not possible to be a 'coward' in a video game. Especially in a game mode that relies on capturing points rather than scoring kills.

HTH

Its just my opinion but I think its cheap and everybodies doing it because they are scared to fight normally in PVP, whats more is its not fun. When you can fight toe-to-toe with an Iron vanguard GWF without over-use of stealth and still spank them, then you will relise that you are sacrificing too much damage and time by hiding the whole match.

What I hate most of all is perma-stealth rogues who run away after you spank them! Not only are you hiding but running away too, you tell me that isn't cowardly (especially when they attack you first)... clueless, skill-less players that choose to play like this because they think its the only way to win in pvp lol.

Its funny because 2 days ago I was defending #1 by myself had this perma-stealth rogue come after me trying to cap everytime... and everytime I killed him, so his teammate came to help him out, at this point its 2v1 (both perma-stealth rogues vs me dps rogue) Killed 1, the other one ran away this cycle repeated a few times until a third came who was a GWF (dunno what build) Killed the gwf and 1 rogue, the other rogue ran away.

The difference between perma-stealth and dps at the end of the match was about 15-1 (me) and 5-12 (them) K/D Ratio.
This isn't just 1 match either, I see statistics like this between me and perma-stealth rogues in almost every game im in one with.

Im sure someone will say ohh they just sucked or don't know how to play or whatever... Fair enough, maybe they did, maybe they didn't but I still havnt met a perma-stealth rogue that I could call very good or one who I couldn't beat in a 1v1 situation for that matter. Don't get me wrong, there are some decent ones I have come across but none who I could say were outstanding, the end score and K/D Ratio on scoreboard speaks for itself to be honest.

todesfaelle

No contest, a rogue spec-ed for PotB would come out on top against any Stealth-based build. PotB ticks cannot be regen-ed anymore. Back then I'd just heal back the damage I soaked from PotB, nowadays that is no longer the case. But if we were to consider deflect/defense non-stealth Combat TR's against the entire PVP meta where CC is king and no longer burst, I'd say that no matter how tanky the TR can get, there's no escaping the CC meta. Chain-CC is PVP. But if the "Combat" TR is the burst-type (IS/LB/ITC) of the previous meta, sad to say there aren't too many ways for em to contend against heavy stealth users.

But I'm speaking strictly from speculation. I can't really say how a deflect rouge would perform against the meta when I haven't played it extensively. But right now I'm sure most of us can agree that although stealth builds are not the strongest, it is the currently what allows us to optimize ourselves for PVP. Our DPS keeps getting gimped, to the point that we've been pushed to spec for something like PotB which we most of us would frown upon back then due to its inefficiency. But the meta changes, and so must we.