dysillusionBanned Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 30Arc User
edited March 2014
naaaaaaaa perma-stealth can be 100% stealth uptime if they want, not just most of the time. still just as effective in PvP, provided they are geared and built right. some perma-stealthers don't even need bait n switch anymore to maintain 100% uptime, due to int and recovery. imagine that, a perma-stealth rogue with such high recharge rate that they can afford to drop a no-damage stealth refiller/AP generator for a heavy nuke like lashing blade. the only time they're visible is when they use lashing blade, and they combine it with ItC to cover the few seconds while they SS and restealth. it's an overpowered build, but it's really the stat choices and feats that make it possible.
nobody here has claimed that SS+ItC = perma. i think just about every MI that does PvP probably uses these since the impact shot nerf.
naaaaaaaa perma-stealth can be 100% stealth uptime if they want, not just most of the time. still just as effective in PvP, provided they are geared and built right. some perma-stealthers don't even need bait n switch anymore to maintain 100% uptime, due to int and recovery. imagine that, a perma-stealth rogue with such high recharge rate that they can afford to drop a no-damage stealth refiller/AP generator for a heavy nuke like lashing blade. the only time they're visible is when they use lashing blade, and they combine it with ItC to cover the few seconds while they SS and restealth. it's an overpowered build, but it's really the stat choices and feats that make it possible.
nobody here has claimed that SS+ItC = perma. i think just about every MI that does PvP probably uses these since the impact shot nerf.
I've reached 30% charge rate high int and if you do not have BaS you can't perma, stealth is around 10sec(11 if you have nimble dodge and if you don't take any dmg) the cooldown on SS is around 13 sec with 25% recharge speed, for these 3 seconds you are exposed, if you use ItC in this time you are exposed then we are back to that SS + ItC I mentioned before which is Snow's build (half invisible, half invincible) I slot path of blades(out of stealth) instead of lashing blade, so on my rotation everytime I activate ItC I become immortal for 5 sec, the rest of the time I am invisible... a perma stealth gets exposed only when hitting with lashing or IS then back to stealth, if you add gloaming cut then you go 100% perma.
Also everyone today uses bilethorn and PoB so I doubt people can maintain 100% stealth uptime.
The whole concern about rogues these days is not being 100% invisible but to be immortal under ItC with stealth effects, then vanishing and recovering the little health he may have lost through regen while stealthed it is like we always get a second chance. I would suggest devs to change the ItC stealth effect so you can avoid immortality, the whole concept of ItC is to increase survivability but immortality for 5 sec is imba.
naaaaaaaa perma-stealth can be 100% stealth uptime if they want, not just most of the time. still just as effective in PvP, provided they are geared and built right. some perma-stealthers don't even need bait n switch anymore to maintain 100% uptime, due to int and recovery. imagine that, a perma-stealth rogue with such high recharge rate that they can afford to drop a no-damage stealth refiller/AP generator for a heavy nuke like lashing blade. the only time they're visible is when they use lashing blade, and they combine it with ItC to cover the few seconds while they SS and restealth.
Sorry, friend. But this is completely untrue.
People have forgotten what a Permastealth rogue is. All the new people think that any Rogue that has high Stealth uptime is a permastealth rogue, but that's not doing justice for the real ones. The only real permastealth rogue build in the game is the one that uses BnS and SS. ITC was never part of the Permastealth rotation, and Permastealth neither needs Gloaming Cut in order to refill Stealth as well, compared to the build I presented. There is value in learning the history of the TR community.
What people call "Permastealth" nowadays is a build originally played by Click, a retired legend from the Mindflayer Shard who dominated even up against legends from Lemonade Stand in the Premade vs. Premade Tournaments in the Preview Shard back when the shards weren't merged yet. He was lauded as one of the best (if not the best) in all 3 Shards back then. He uses ITC/SS/LB and pretty much one-shots anyone while minimizing his risks of death. He was the one who popularized this play style (Sorrow followed his footsteps) and Click pretty much abhors Permastealth rogues with a passion, the real ones with 100% Stealth uptime and not the ones we see nowadays that has to pop out of Stealth to deal damage via an encounter similar to Click's build. SS + ITC is not Perma, it's merely part of the cookie-cutter executioner setup. Permastealth = 100% Stealth uptime via BnS and SS + 20 INT, and this is x3lade's build. This right here is the original Permastealth. Notice how he didn't put any points in ITC, because he doesn't need it. He'll just kill people before he even needs to pop out of Stealth. It was THAT OP back then, but now it's a relic of the past. I don't think anyone in here has played against x3lade in his glory days, where Permastealth would kill pretty much most builds because of Greater Tenebrous Enchantments.
And to add, it's just impossible to maintain 100% uptime of Stealth (meaning you never pop out of Stealth) using Shadow Strike paired with INT + Recovery alone. The idea is just ludicrous. Stealth lasts 5 seconds originally, with Skulker + Improved Cunning Sneak we get an increase of 45%, taking us to Stealth times of around roughly ~7 seconds. Twilight Adept will increase this by ~0.7 seconds per dodge, so that's give or take ~9 seconds. At best, TR's can reach 35% RSI (with INT factored) but that is already ridiculously stupid (sorry for my wording) to do because it goes WAY beyond the Diminishing Returns. The highest amount most TR's will go for would be 1740 (15%) + 20 INT (10%), total of 25%. It's the absolute cap. There is no merit in going any higher aside from lowering the CD of ITC and SS by roughly a split second by aiming for 30%, at the expense of forgoing some of the other stats whose caps can be reached by the amount you used on Recovery.
The only possible way to make it possible to only rely on Shadow Strike for a 100% Stealth uptime would be to use the Gloaming Cut Stealth Build. Gloaming Cut feated with Sneaky Stabber will be another source of Stealth refills, but this is a very risky strategy due to you needing to be in melee range of your opponents. And as a TR whose main mode of defense is Stealth, it's not exactly the best thing to do unless you know what you are doing.
TL;DR - Permastealth is died with x3lade leaving the game. What people call nowadays as permastealths are cookie-cutter executioners with long stealth.
I know about the 30% because that is what i get with ioun stone and on dummies it doesnt change the rotation to the point where its viable, thank you banelorne for taking your time to try to explain what i have been trying to tell this people for a while, you always have words of wisdom for us rogues.
I played with x3lade and i joined Exile on open beta day 1, watched the whole development of Perma stealth build but switched myself to banelorne's because gloaming cut as it helped me alot( never had resources to buy enchants like x3lade did. he had rank 10 silvery so he could have a few greater tenebrous. great build it made history like many other builds
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dysillusionBanned Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 30Arc User
edited March 2014
my point here was simply that a rogue can maintain stealth permanently still. it matters very little what original build coined a term that is repeated in all of your builds to concisely describe a style of play. anyway i have seen similar to what i described with my own eyes on an insanely well geared guy and i doubt he plucked either of your builds specifically, considering i have watched and know it's a mixture while i do concede that it's not purely down to shadow strike, int and recovery, they play a very large role in making it as reliable as he has it, and he pretty much has the choice to save a lashing blade till he knows it's a guarenteed kill, then blow one person away while he's immune and restealth so he can pick off the other(s). he is the only one i have seen who is quite so untouchable, while i have seen many weaker perma-stealthers who are killable provided you're good at locating and slapping them out of stealth. the good ones are generally only so tough because they're good at avoiding the people trying to locate them.
so you say this "perma-stealth" copyright x3lade build is dead, then everything spoken regarding perma-stealthers must surely mean permanently stealthed rogues :O which do still exist and no, i DO NOT MEAN SS+ITC+LB alone, which obviously has a significant period of time unstealthed, i mean those who continue to never leave stealth, many of whom don't even use ItC at all.
nimble dodge? i guess that was a mix-up with twilight adept
you have to be kidding fernandos..the overpowered part is vanishing and recovering repeatedly every time cause you've stacked your stats and feats into stealth and recharge. the way stealth works in this game it's simply too powerful to be kept up indefinitely even while dealing damage. leave ItC alone, always dumb perma-stealthers think class powers should be changed because they play an OP style. how about make int give recharge speed at half the rate, nerf some of the +stealth/stealth generation feats, OR make bait and switch stealthed dummy have 5x more hp but not refill stealth it's difficult to change core class abilities without it having a really harsh knock-on effect for the normal tr's
Permanent Stealth is indeed possible. Though i have no idea how he achieved it, I once watched a lone Rogue single-handedly take down the Pirate King himself after the rest of the part wiped, entirely from stealth.
Bad luck and some poor communication had all the rest of us dead before PK had gotten down to 2/3 health, and this glorious ******* managed to whittle him down from there all by his lonesome. I watched the entire fight (in awe, i might add), and not once did he drop from stealth, cuz the second he had he would have been swarmed under.
Nimble dodge is a feat in the saboteur tree that decreases the cost of dodging by 20% under stealth, you gain 3 rolls with a full stamina bar, associated with the +10% stealth for every time you roll it gives you an extra 10% stealth overall
I agree there are many perma stealth rogues out there I see them every day, they do not seem to be an issue at this time though I do not think they are overpowered at all, I have done it for a long time and saw the need to change to SS + ItC because it was obviously better.
Permanent Stealth is indeed possible. Though i have no idea how he achieved it, I once watched a lone Rogue single-handedly take down the Pirate King himself after the rest of the part wiped, entirely from stealth.
Most rogues, even not full permastealth spec rogues, can do it if they have feated Gloaming cut. Pirate King would be the most difficult however because he throws that crazy AoE from time to time and he's got a hundred of minions so it's hard to target properly, but if you were patient, Pirate King is killable in stealth. I have enough patience to take him to 15% hp after my party wiped. That was when I played around with feated Gloaming cut once.
I do agree though that ItC needs rework, not a NERF, just tuning...
Yes please. It's broken for a long time. Cancellation via CC, while casting, puts it on an 18 second cooldown ... and you get nada. Shouldn't skills first be fixed to specification before nerfs were called. That's a rhetorical question.
Like I've been saying dear brother rogue, it's impossible to play with 100% stealth uptime with Shadow Strike alone. That is unless he's using my play style. If he is, then he is one d*mn good rogue to use Gloaming Cut to the extent of not being caught at all, since using GC in PVP means you go into melee range (very risky), or the opponents are terrible. The only safe At-Will to use at melee range is DF because of its CC immunity. For the ITC/SS/LB rotation you saw in PVP, he is most probably using this, please scroll down to the PVP Skill Bar 2. This is the only current possible way to play with the luxury of being able to choose to pop LB after ITC and SS are out of CD.
But the thing is, these rogues are rare, simply because this play style has a steep learning curve for PVP and is very hard to pull off. This is the only current possible way to maintain 100% Stealth uptime with Shadow Strike alone as the main Stealth refill encounter. Is it OP? Once mastered, it's powerful. But the problem is the process of mastering it.
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dysillusionBanned Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 30Arc User
insanely well geared guy and i doubt he plucked either of your builds specifically, considering i have watched and know it's a mixture while i do concede that it's not purely down to shadow strike, int and recovery, they play a very large role in making it as reliable as he has it, and he pretty much has the choice to save a lashing blade till he knows it's a guarenteed kill, then blow one person away while he's immune and restealth so he can pick off the other(s). he is the only one i have seen who is quite so untouchable, while i have seen many weaker perma-stealthers who are killable provided you're good at locating and slapping them out of stealth. the good ones are generally only so tough because they're good at avoiding the people trying to locate them.
i know for a fact he doesn't use cloud of steel :> like i said, this is the only one i've met who was so tough, he was really the extreme, but it shows just how overpowered it can get if you build your own perma-stealth style with maxed out enchants. i also saw the guy swap to BnS briefly, but back to the ItC+SS+LB combo when he was at a cap node. he just takes his time and makes sure he gets a gloaming in, staying hidden, and then if he has time he uses a DF too, the first 2 hits of DF he doesn't really aim, while the last hit he jumps and locks on while still stealthed, more of a surprise that way i'm fairly sure he's using tenacious concealment as well, as i did smack him sometimes while he was stealthed but didn't manage to break his stealth with single at-will hits alone, while his lashing blade hits were a bit weaker than my own.
ok i understand fernandos, that's fair enough. i most certainly agree that the fully permanent stealth rogue is less powerful than the SS+ItC+LB combo, due to versatility and group synergy. when totally alone, on the other hand, perma-stealth still has better survivability and beats out non-permas in most 1v1 scenarios. i think above all, this is what makes people complain about rogues because you can't even hit 100% perma's back. if your spec really is invincible the entire time that you're visible then that's a huge problem too, but i know that with SS+ItC+LB it's not possible without gloaming and still unreliable unless you stack int and recovery too. either way, you can't go and nerf ItC because still most rogues don't have 100% stealth/invincibility and for those it would be crippling to break their only means of personal defense in most situations. imo it would be wiser to rework SS or BnS.
Really? stealth makes u go faster? that makes sense....not. Only in this game have I seen this. If you use the top 5 MMOs that have a rogue class for reference Rogues ALWAYS move slower in stealth, not faster. YOUR SUPPOSED TO BE SNEAKING, this means slower movement.
Hmm well, in GW2 stealth makes the theif move faster. And that is probably the best comparison since in that game, stealth is also temporary like it is in this game. Also in both games if you spec for more stealth uptime you lose damage output. That is apples to apples. We can't compare these mechanics to other games where stealth is an always on unless detected mechanic.
I do agree with you on ITC though, it's just too much.
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guille23mxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
^^ I don't know what to say about this emotional rant but I stopped reading after a few paragraphs, its far too long and reads as a wall of text.
But after you finish crying and want to get into a real discussion, reread my post and understand
1) I am clearly referring to perma style gameplay. I even defended combat TRs in my post and said clearly that if it wasn't for them I would request a change to ItC. So I don't even know how to respond to "I wish people like you would stop whining about the class as a whole and getting the class as a whole nerfed, when your real gripe is with the lame perma-stealth spec"
but your far too emotional and do your class no favors. If you would like to go ahead and form a real argument then maybe you can provide vital feedback to the devs instead of "omg cry cry cry Im gona get nerfed again cry, why u do dis OP"
2) I said clearly that I play a TR as a main. When I go 32 and 0 against good guilds and veteran players in pvp I know that there is a problem. Changes are coming to the TR class so if you want to finally acknowledge that there is a problem we can brainstorm some solutions to make pvp more fun for EVERYONE, and that includes TRs
3) I played a combat style with over 40% deflect and 29% DR before I finally switched to perma and im well aware of their defenses. With ItC and 75% deflect severity I was VERY hard to kill even out of stealth. When I switched to perma it was just plain stupid and now my survivability is even higher than my Sent who's decked out in rank 10s ever since the pvp patch.
You still get to enter the battle with stealth even without SS so the damage is low risk. Remember what they said when they nerfed impact shot? they said it was too low risk. CoS isn't exclusive to permas, I can spam that 8 times in stealth with a full blown executioner high burst build. Again, low risk. When your able to do damage with little risk of taking damage this is low risk
1.-Please Ignore this OP... I mean the guy has a 18k gs TR... I mean who has a 18k gs... like 1% of all TR population...
Most TR's in the game struggle to raise their GS up to 15k maybe with a LOT of hard work...and this guy is bored of his OPness
and wants to Nerf the Class... Enjoy your Opness Bro and stop posting these senseless comments.
2.-The guy is clearly running a CW or a HR and want to get the TR nerfed again some more despite it has been nerfed to the ground ALOT since BETA.
3.-Focus your anger to the now OP clases like HR and CW... OPOPOPOP as hell .. these clases crit still 22k with ease...evade everything.. kill from close , from afar.. and on top of that They are more resilient because of Tenacity.. OMG
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guille23mxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
i've never heard a bigger pile of absolute bull****. i wish people like you would stop whinging about the class as a whole and getting the class as a whole nerfed, when your real gripe is with the lame perma-stealth spec. you will make them break normal rogues who aren't ******y and don't rely on being invisible 100% of the time. we've had nothing but nerfs since i started and frankly it's pathetic that whingers like you get us nerfed time and time again because you cry about TR's as a whole because you couldn't hit a perma-stealther.
GWF's are still just as invincible as before, especially with high regeneration they can still be unkillable. really top geared perma-stealthers are the same, invincible, and both these specs are terribly lame. if they would just break perma-stealth permanently and actually nerf the IV sent gwf's you might start to see ways to balance pvp appearing, but then there's still massive flaws with cw's and hr's that make them overpowered too (think how latency affects a ranged class with multiple dodges that trigger 'immunity').
rogues rely on dodge roll, and the funny thing is, because most classes get more dodges, our dodge roll is actually the weakest dodge, equal to the clerics' dodge which also sucks (though we tend to stack stam regen more)..... i came here because i shadow striked, i stealthed, and then i dodge-rolled very quickly away and then... the control wizard, from 40 yards away, while i SHOULD have been invisible.. he locked me with his crowd control and killed me before stealth ended with ice knife... from 40 yards.........
every reference you make is regarding perma-stealthers, yet you point at all TR's and yell NERF. this is why they break the wrong things, they try to balance for perma-stealth, which obviously leaves non-permas in a way worse situation.
and FYI most games now with stealth classes don't put a movement speed slow and in fact do offer spec-based increases while stealthed.
i'm hella-pissed at this patch cause i love using burst and i don't like to hide constantly.. before the patch i had a choice of what pvp skills i used but now i'm FORCED to use shadow strike and impossible to catch, there really is no alternative anymore.
allow me to further pick gaping holes in your arguments.
1)lowest risk dps in the game - excuse me but how is being the weakest defensive class that also has to get into melee range the lowest risk? OHHHH YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT PERMA-STEALTH, PLEASE MAKE THAT CLEAR NEXT TIME (caps for emphasis)
2)highest survivability in the game - so i have 2 dodges while wizards get 3, rangers get 6 (not to mention things like marauder's escape and fox shift which give them even more 'dodge's), gf's get BLOCK (LOL), gwf's can just sprint wherever they want. GWF sprint i personally find, combined with unstoppable, gives EASILY the best survivability in the game, especially when you compare it to the squishy normal rogues that can't maintain stealth 100% of the time. so i presume, once again, you were referring SOLELY to perma-stealth rogues. please make that clearer next time.
3)complete control of fights - ok so this implies we have mega-crowd control abilities like... uhhhhhhh SMOKE BOMB WOOT YEA, well, this skill is cool if you're doing larger scale fights or for the central fight in a domination match but in 1v1 or other small skirmishes it's blocky and easy to avoid, not to mention a very long cooldown. next in terms of control power is probably dazing strike - melee range, a nice daze if you can hit it, very easy to dodge though unless performed from stealth, extremely obvious when seen. shadow strike has a small daze when used from stealth, this is our most useful atm, due to the current requirement to stay hidden or die. impact shot used to be a great mini-control with a nice hit of damage - the initial hit has been slightly nerfed and now if you use all the charges you will be looking at a 1k crit on a target with any tenacity (the really sad thing about the nerf is that it seems to be aimed at stopping perma-stealthers, who incidentally DON'T EVEN USE IMPACT SHOT) - not worth using anymore compared with the other powers. the fact is, rogues don't really have a lot of crowd control, and what you are really referring to is a perma-stealther's ability to always avoid you.
i'm playing with 1,000 tenacity atm and i still get killed by gwf's inside their prone from full health... they hit harder than i do with a lashing crit versus targets with equal tenacity. i'm not saying rogues need a damage buff but gwf's shouldn't be able to pull that kind of damage whilst also absorbing so much.
maybe they could adopt your idea and alter it by rolling deflection severity into something that is mutually exclusive from perma-stealth builds. much like ItC, non-perma's simply NEED that deflect severity, cause we can't be invisible 100% of the time and we still are massively squishy even with tenacity.
what's sad though is, when i come up against a not-so-well-geared perma-stealther.. and kill them easily as a regular non-perma rogue, because once you find them they're still squishy.
above all, what's really depressing is, they made burst-style rogues obsolete in pvp, and they didn't give us a free respec to swap over to a stealth-based spec if we want to. this kinda stuff makes me not want to spend any money on this game anymore, and frankly the threat of more inappropriate nerfs will only hasten my exit from this terribly imbalanced game. rogues are already kinda broken in pve now you want us broken in pvp? truth is you want us to quit?
frankly rogues are still good in both but compared to other overpowered classes, there's no argument, which is evident from the group setups you generally see going for MC/CN/VT (LF3M 2 CW and 1 GWF!!!).
to me it really seems like they just want me to shell out a few hundred zen for a respec so i can join the lame perma-stealther masses (oh look they put the token on sale, what a STRANGE COINCIDENCE!).
rogues in general, are pretty much always a high damage, low defenses class, and sure, we should have the choice to spec defensively, which should cut chunks out of our damage, but we should never be able to conduct an entire fight/battle from stealth, that's ridiculous. high damage, low defense, that's what balances rogues, and aside from the full rank 10 enchant, int-specced perma-stealthers, it's a very balanced class. i can kill nearly anyone in pure 1v1, except some really overpowered gwf's and occasionally a hr that really has crazy-good timing on their million dodges. at the same time, i can be killed by any class with half-decent equipment in only a few hits. if i get crowd controlled and i don't have ItC ready, i'm pretty much dead.
i have also been killed during stealth-activated ItC (supposedly 100% dodge), and also during a dodge roll (supposedly 'immune'). i accredit these deaths to latency though it's difficult to really tell if there's something deeper responsible.
oh oh oh i have one last point for the original poster: do you actually understand what 'tanky' means? tanky doesn't mean hides and avoids damage... tanky means takes the hits face on and receives little to no damage due to high defenses. yea sure, some of the full rank 10 enchant, deflect-specced guys are quite tanky, but perma-stealth generally has nothing to do with being tanky.
what this Bro said ^^^^ I back you up bro
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guille23mxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
True Bro ... getting bombarded from CW and HR even while im ItC its not even funny... thanks to the whiners and Developers.
So your suggestion to nerf deflect severity = all mobs above average at dungeons will one shot TR = absolutely and I mean absolutely no one will want TR as a party member for any T2 dungeon = also one shooted at PVP.
About nefring survivability you re TOTALY wrong!!! Shame you have such TR!!!
Amen to this ^^^^^^
As I said the OP is the enemy in disguised.
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guille23mxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
Comments
nobody here has claimed that SS+ItC = perma. i think just about every MI that does PvP probably uses these since the impact shot nerf.
I've reached 30% charge rate high int and if you do not have BaS you can't perma, stealth is around 10sec(11 if you have nimble dodge and if you don't take any dmg) the cooldown on SS is around 13 sec with 25% recharge speed, for these 3 seconds you are exposed, if you use ItC in this time you are exposed then we are back to that SS + ItC I mentioned before which is Snow's build (half invisible, half invincible) I slot path of blades(out of stealth) instead of lashing blade, so on my rotation everytime I activate ItC I become immortal for 5 sec, the rest of the time I am invisible... a perma stealth gets exposed only when hitting with lashing or IS then back to stealth, if you add gloaming cut then you go 100% perma.
Also everyone today uses bilethorn and PoB so I doubt people can maintain 100% stealth uptime.
The whole concern about rogues these days is not being 100% invisible but to be immortal under ItC with stealth effects, then vanishing and recovering the little health he may have lost through regen while stealthed it is like we always get a second chance. I would suggest devs to change the ItC stealth effect so you can avoid immortality, the whole concept of ItC is to increase survivability but immortality for 5 sec is imba.
Sorry, friend. But this is completely untrue.
People have forgotten what a Permastealth rogue is. All the new people think that any Rogue that has high Stealth uptime is a permastealth rogue, but that's not doing justice for the real ones. The only real permastealth rogue build in the game is the one that uses BnS and SS. ITC was never part of the Permastealth rotation, and Permastealth neither needs Gloaming Cut in order to refill Stealth as well, compared to the build I presented. There is value in learning the history of the TR community.
What people call "Permastealth" nowadays is a build originally played by Click, a retired legend from the Mindflayer Shard who dominated even up against legends from Lemonade Stand in the Premade vs. Premade Tournaments in the Preview Shard back when the shards weren't merged yet. He was lauded as one of the best (if not the best) in all 3 Shards back then. He uses ITC/SS/LB and pretty much one-shots anyone while minimizing his risks of death. He was the one who popularized this play style (Sorrow followed his footsteps) and Click pretty much abhors Permastealth rogues with a passion, the real ones with 100% Stealth uptime and not the ones we see nowadays that has to pop out of Stealth to deal damage via an encounter similar to Click's build. SS + ITC is not Perma, it's merely part of the cookie-cutter executioner setup. Permastealth = 100% Stealth uptime via BnS and SS + 20 INT, and this is x3lade's build. This right here is the original Permastealth. Notice how he didn't put any points in ITC, because he doesn't need it. He'll just kill people before he even needs to pop out of Stealth. It was THAT OP back then, but now it's a relic of the past. I don't think anyone in here has played against x3lade in his glory days, where Permastealth would kill pretty much most builds because of Greater Tenebrous Enchantments.
And to add, it's just impossible to maintain 100% uptime of Stealth (meaning you never pop out of Stealth) using Shadow Strike paired with INT + Recovery alone. The idea is just ludicrous. Stealth lasts 5 seconds originally, with Skulker + Improved Cunning Sneak we get an increase of 45%, taking us to Stealth times of around roughly ~7 seconds. Twilight Adept will increase this by ~0.7 seconds per dodge, so that's give or take ~9 seconds. At best, TR's can reach 35% RSI (with INT factored) but that is already ridiculously stupid (sorry for my wording) to do because it goes WAY beyond the Diminishing Returns. The highest amount most TR's will go for would be 1740 (15%) + 20 INT (10%), total of 25%. It's the absolute cap. There is no merit in going any higher aside from lowering the CD of ITC and SS by roughly a split second by aiming for 30%, at the expense of forgoing some of the other stats whose caps can be reached by the amount you used on Recovery.
The only possible way to make it possible to only rely on Shadow Strike for a 100% Stealth uptime would be to use the Gloaming Cut Stealth Build. Gloaming Cut feated with Sneaky Stabber will be another source of Stealth refills, but this is a very risky strategy due to you needing to be in melee range of your opponents. And as a TR whose main mode of defense is Stealth, it's not exactly the best thing to do unless you know what you are doing.
TL;DR - Permastealth is died with x3lade leaving the game. What people call nowadays as permastealths are cookie-cutter executioners with long stealth.
I played with x3lade and i joined Exile on open beta day 1, watched the whole development of Perma stealth build but switched myself to banelorne's because gloaming cut as it helped me alot( never had resources to buy enchants like x3lade did. he had rank 10 silvery so he could have a few greater tenebrous. great build it made history like many other builds
so you say this "perma-stealth" copyright x3lade build is dead, then everything spoken regarding perma-stealthers must surely mean permanently stealthed rogues :O which do still exist
nimble dodge? i guess that was a mix-up with twilight adept
you have to be kidding fernandos..the overpowered part is vanishing and recovering repeatedly every time cause you've stacked your stats and feats into stealth and recharge. the way stealth works in this game it's simply too powerful to be kept up indefinitely even while dealing damage. leave ItC alone, always dumb perma-stealthers think class powers should be changed because they play an OP style. how about make int give recharge speed at half the rate, nerf some of the +stealth/stealth generation feats, OR make bait and switch stealthed dummy have 5x more hp but not refill stealth
Bad luck and some poor communication had all the rest of us dead before PK had gotten down to 2/3 health, and this glorious ******* managed to whittle him down from there all by his lonesome. I watched the entire fight (in awe, i might add), and not once did he drop from stealth, cuz the second he had he would have been swarmed under.
I agree there are many perma stealth rogues out there I see them every day, they do not seem to be an issue at this time though I do not think they are overpowered at all, I have done it for a long time and saw the need to change to SS + ItC because it was obviously better.
Most rogues, even not full permastealth spec rogues, can do it if they have feated Gloaming cut. Pirate King would be the most difficult however because he throws that crazy AoE from time to time and he's got a hundred of minions so it's hard to target properly, but if you were patient, Pirate King is killable in stealth. I have enough patience to take him to 15% hp after my party wiped. That was when I played around with feated Gloaming cut once.
Yes please. It's broken for a long time. Cancellation via CC, while casting, puts it on an 18 second cooldown ... and you get nada. Shouldn't skills first be fixed to specification before nerfs were called. That's a rhetorical question.
Like I've been saying dear brother rogue, it's impossible to play with 100% stealth uptime with Shadow Strike alone. That is unless he's using my play style. If he is, then he is one d*mn good rogue to use Gloaming Cut to the extent of not being caught at all, since using GC in PVP means you go into melee range (very risky), or the opponents are terrible. The only safe At-Will to use at melee range is DF because of its CC immunity. For the ITC/SS/LB rotation you saw in PVP, he is most probably using this, please scroll down to the PVP Skill Bar 2. This is the only current possible way to play with the luxury of being able to choose to pop LB after ITC and SS are out of CD.
But the thing is, these rogues are rare, simply because this play style has a steep learning curve for PVP and is very hard to pull off. This is the only current possible way to maintain 100% Stealth uptime with Shadow Strike alone as the main Stealth refill encounter. Is it OP? Once mastered, it's powerful. But the problem is the process of mastering it.
i know for a fact he doesn't use cloud of steel :> like i said, this is the only one i've met who was so tough, he was really the extreme, but it shows just how overpowered it can get if you build your own perma-stealth style with maxed out enchants. i also saw the guy swap to BnS briefly, but back to the ItC+SS+LB combo when he was at a cap node. he just takes his time and makes sure he gets a gloaming in, staying hidden, and then if he has time he uses a DF too, the first 2 hits of DF he doesn't really aim, while the last hit he jumps and locks on while still stealthed, more of a surprise that way
ok i understand fernandos, that's fair enough. i most certainly agree that the fully permanent stealth rogue is less powerful than the SS+ItC+LB combo, due to versatility and group synergy. when totally alone, on the other hand, perma-stealth still has better survivability and beats out non-permas in most 1v1 scenarios. i think above all, this is what makes people complain about rogues because you can't even hit 100% perma's back. if your spec really is invincible the entire time that you're visible then that's a huge problem too, but i know that with SS+ItC+LB it's not possible without gloaming and still unreliable unless you stack int and recovery too. either way, you can't go and nerf ItC because still most rogues don't have 100% stealth/invincibility and for those it would be crippling to break their only means of personal defense in most situations. imo it would be wiser to rework SS or BnS.
Hmm well, in GW2 stealth makes the theif move faster. And that is probably the best comparison since in that game, stealth is also temporary like it is in this game. Also in both games if you spec for more stealth uptime you lose damage output. That is apples to apples. We can't compare these mechanics to other games where stealth is an always on unless detected mechanic.
I do agree with you on ITC though, it's just too much.
1.-Please Ignore this OP... I mean the guy has a 18k gs TR... I mean who has a 18k gs... like 1% of all TR population...
Most TR's in the game struggle to raise their GS up to 15k maybe with a LOT of hard work...and this guy is bored of his OPness
and wants to Nerf the Class... Enjoy your Opness Bro and stop posting these senseless comments.
2.-The guy is clearly running a CW or a HR and want to get the TR nerfed again some more despite it has been nerfed to the ground ALOT since BETA.
3.-Focus your anger to the now OP clases like HR and CW... OPOPOPOP as hell .. these clases crit still 22k with ease...evade everything.. kill from close , from afar.. and on top of that They are more resilient because of Tenacity.. OMG
what this Bro said ^^^^ I back you up bro