Potential Stealth Mechanic Changes

godlysoul2

Official statements on upcoming ideas for reworking perma stealth builds. (However, it is said that no final solution has been determined and that these are just ideas, but they do intend to do reworking to affect these builds.):

http://www.twitch.tv/perfectworld_community/b/503399783

(skip to 4:27)

Honestly though, we all knew this was an overpowered build that needed tweaking. We will need to adapt on how we build/play rogue in the future.

todesfaelle

Hopefully they're willing to listen to some of our suggestions. We don't want to get a Stealth rework that would get rid of our PVE viability just because of some PVP Q.Q's. But listening to them back there, it seems they're not planning to completely destroy the build, but just to make it more challenging. I'm hoping this is something that would only affect us PVP.

kweassa

todesfaelle wrote: »

Hopefully they're willing to listen to some of our suggestions. We don't want to get a Stealth rework that would get rid of our PVE viability just because of some PVP Q.Q's. But listening to them back there, it seems they're not planning to completely destroy the build, but just to make it more challenging. I'm hoping this is something that would only affect us PVP.

With all due respect tod, if you're meaning soloing epic bosses, then (while I do understand the thrill and challenge of it) I don't think it's fair if that is possible solely due to being able to perma.

Cryptic's always known to come forth with controversial stuff that is initially misunderstood, and takes a lot of time to realize everything's a lot more sophisticated, reasonable and logical. Let's hope for the best.

vasdamas

I give up v.v


Let them nerf me class as much as they want. I'll still be playing it no matter what happens to the rogues, even if they nerf us to the state of companion like class running around and poking everything for 1k damage.
- _ -

sasoras

eh they btr balance the gwf sent HAMSTER, before they work on us.

todesfaelle

kweassa wrote: »

With all due respect tod, if you're meaning soloing epic bosses, then (while I do understand the thrill and challenge of it) I don't think it's fair if that is possible solely due to being able to perma.

Cryptic's always known to come forth with controversial stuff that is initially misunderstood, and takes a lot of time to realize everything's a lot more sophisticated, reasonable and logical. Let's hope for the best.

You misunderstand, brother. If you remember back in Open Beta, there was a planned nerf for our Stealth Mechanic that was supposed to be imposed upon Live Launch. But they didn't pull through with it, because it was a really stupid nerf, and they themselves admitted that it was not the way to rework Stealth. But if by any chance they're planning to do the same thing just because the population of TR's nowadays are much lower than before... then IDK anymore. That's no balance.

Basically all our at-wills drained a significant amount of Stealth whenever we attacked. Duelist's Flurry doesn't even last one Stealth Meter. By the time you get to the last hit, Stealth is removed. Us PVP-ers could live with that in all honesty, but in PVE the viability of the rogue would have went down the drain even further because majority of the damage we deal in PVE is done in Stealth. A lot of our class feats support playing in Stealth.

Stealth provides us with Combat Advantage, and it would have affected the following feats.
- Action Advantage.
- Underhanded Tactics.
- Berserk Vitality

Also, we have a LOT of feats that work in conjunction with Stealth which would have made them utterly useless if the nerf was passed.
- Cunning Stalker (Sab)
- Sneaky Stabber (Sab)
- Sneak of Shadows (Sab)
- Brutal Backstab (Exe)

Those, and such a lazy nerf for Stealth would also make Battlefield Skulker Set and Profound PVP Set bonuses completely useless as they increase a player's damage by 5%/7.5% respectively while in Stealth. All these because of some simple PVP Q.Q's. Now if they really want to remove permastealth from the game, all they have to do is to remove Bait and Switch's ability to replenish Stealth and it's over. No more permastealth, no need to rework Stealth. Everyone gets to live happily ever after. They should have done this before live launch. I just can't imagine what reasons they had to not do it, because it offers so much gain with very minimal risks and damages to the TR class. They could have just given Bait and Switch a separate ability other than a Stealth Refill. They did it with Sneak Attack, Deft Strike, etc. What's stopping them from reworking BnS.

gornonthecob

I'll give up my perma-stealth when they take away perma-unstoppable/ perma-stuck lock GWF's, immortal DC's, and CW/HR dodging when they're in their backs.

fernandosb

gornonthecob wrote: »

I'll give up my perma-stealth when they take away perma-unstoppable/ perma-stuck lock GWF's, immortal DC's, and CW/HR dodging when they're in their backs.

AMEN Bro im with you

kweassa

todesfaelle wrote: »

You misunderstand, brother. If you remember back in Open Beta, there was a planned nerf for our Stealth Mechanic that was supposed to be imposed upon Live Launch. But they didn't pull through with it, because it was a really stupid nerf, and they themselves admitted that it was not the way to rework Stealth. But if by any chance they're planning to do the same thing just because the population of TR's nowadays are much lower than before... then IDK anymore. That's no balance.

Basically all our at-wills drained a significant amount of Stealth whenever we attacked. Duelist's Flurry doesn't even last one Stealth Meter. By the time you get to the last hit, Stealth is removed. Us PVP-ers could live with that in all honesty, but in PVE the viability of the rogue would have went down the drain even further because majority of the damage we deal in PVE is done in Stealth. A lot of our class feats support playing in Stealth.

Stealth provides us with Combat Advantage, and it would have affected the following feats.
- Action Advantage.
- Underhanded Tactics.
- Berserk Vitality

Also, we have a LOT of feats that work in conjunction with Stealth which would have made them utterly useless if the nerf was passed.
- Cunning Stalker (Sab)
- Sneaky Stabber (Sab)
- Sneak of Shadows (Sab)
- Brutal Backstab (Exe)

Those, and such a lazy nerf for Stealth would also make Battlefield Skulker Set and Profound PVP Set bonuses completely useless as they increase a player's damage by 5%/7.5% respectively while in Stealth. All these because of some simple PVP Q.Q's. Now if they really want to remove permastealth from the game, all they have to do is to remove Bait and Switch's ability to replenish Stealth and it's over. No more permastealth, no need to rework Stealth. Everyone gets to live happily ever after. They should have done this before live launch. I just can't imagine what reasons they had to not do it, because it offers so much gain with very minimal risks and damages to the TR class. They could have just given Bait and Switch a separate ability other than a Stealth Refill. They did it with Sneak Attack, Deft Strike, etc. What's stopping them from reworking BnS.

I don't think its too unreasonable. You are given either a choice to stay your attack and remain at stealth longer for the purpose of defense, or attack from stealth and risk stealth finishing sooner than normal.

I think its simply a matter of tweaking it. Obviously stealth not even lasting for 3~4 seconds when DF is engaged would be problematic -- it does sound way too harsh, but I would feel it is an acceptable compromise if it lasted maybe around 7 seconds (according to my own build, which stealth lasts for around almost exactly 10 secs).

How about if there were some compensations? For instance, if you don't attack, the stealth bar drops at a normal rate, but the "normal rate" would be much longer than what it is now -- maybe 25% the normal rate, meaning in my case, with 0 attacks stealth would last 15 seconds instead of 10. However, if you attack, stealth drains faster than normal, but not at such a punishing rate that you can't even go through 1 DF duration... maybe around 7~8 seconds.

anymras

Now if they really want to remove permastealth from the game, all they have to do is to remove Bait and Switch's ability to replenish Stealth and it's over.

...That wouldn't remove it. At least, not in PvE.
It'd make it more difficult, potentially impossible, for people who don't have A ) high Recovery, B ) Sneaky Stabber, and C ) Scavenger/Skulker gear to accomplish it, and that's all.

I know this, because I eventually took B&S off my skillbar while I was using a permastealth build, because all I needed to do was get into melee range, hold Gloaming Cut for about nine iterations of the attack, tap Shadow Strike, and repeat. With good Recovery, 140% of base Stealth meter, and Sneaky Stabber, I only needed those two attacks to maintain Stealth indefinitely, as long as I was able to stay in Gloaming Cut range.
Once Shadow Strike's cooldown reached around 14/15 seconds, B&S was essentially only useful for crossing long distances in Stealth, at least in PvE.

willsommers

Honestly though, we all knew this was an overpowered build that needed tweaking.

The nerfing of TRs due to PVP has to stop. Cryptic is just getting lazy with their balancing. Even worse are the TRs that play in 2% of game content (PVP) and constantly state "TR good place, ok, can stack 35k HPs, 3k defense and perma.... strong class" It's been going on since beta and TR is in the far worst place of any class for PVE, even GF. Heck there are some places a GF is still legitimately useful in PVE, TR not so much? Meh just take a GWF with good damage. Much better option overall.

lwedar

kweassa wrote: »

I don't think its too unreasonable. You are given either a choice to stay your attack and remain at stealth longer for the purpose of defense, or attack from stealth and risk stealth finishing sooner than normal.

I think its simply a matter of tweaking it. Obviously stealth not even lasting for 3~4 seconds when DF is engaged would be problematic -- it does sound way too harsh, but I would feel it is an acceptable compromise if it lasted maybe around 7 seconds (according to my own build, which stealth lasts for around almost exactly 10 secs).

How about if there were some compensations? For instance, if you don't attack, the stealth bar drops at a normal rate, but the "normal rate" would be much longer than what it is now -- maybe 25% the normal rate, meaning in my case, with 0 attacks stealth would last 15 seconds instead of 10. However, if you attack, stealth drains faster than normal, but not at such a punishing rate that you can't even go through 1 DF duration... maybe around 7~8 seconds.

If they rework the feats first that are based around stealth, then I would be ok with discussion on reworking the mechanic.

irk2013

todesfaelle wrote: »

Hopefully they're willing to listen to some of our suggestions. We don't want to get a Stealth rework that would get rid of our PVE viability just because of some PVP Q.Q's. But listening to them back there, it seems they're not planning to completely destroy the build, but just to make it more challenging. I'm hoping this is something that would only affect us PVP.

What viability are you talking about that you MUST have a long stay in stealth? Unless you are talking being able to solo epic dungeons which is BS and needs to be changed.

todesfaelle

The viability where most of our survival and damage comes from being under the effects of Stealth, as a Stealth class with feats given by devs that support attacking from Stealth? You're not much keen on learning what other classes can do, huh. I'm guessing this is why you Q.Q a lot.

You seem to be ever on the offensive. Just relax, man. There's no need to argue when we can talk about things constructively. Since you're in our forum, take it as an opportunity to learn more about us. We're all a nice bunch if you speak to us in the same manner.

unbah

Instead of stealth rework, I would rather see B&S changes. Remove stealth refill and, for example, make it a time bomb dealing AoE dmg upon destruction/when timer runs out. Mabye add brief stun/daze/knockback. That would make perma harder to mantain in pvp (reason of all the nerf cries) and add aoe/cc options to the class that has very little of these, making non-perma TR's little more viable in pve.

olegsander

Alright I very rarely post on that forum, I'm a lurker. But sometimes it's really needed.
The best start would be to make Shadow Strike not refill stealth if dodged. It would solve a lot of the issues in PvP, and would not affect PvE. Then we could see where we go from here.

If I were not a lazy *** I'd start a thread for this suggestion. Hopefully someone who is more active than I am will do it.

demonmonger

Tr does not need any stealth nerfs... each class has skills to destroy tr in stealth or end stealth. plus we all have lantern options

ayroux

todesfaelle wrote: »

You misunderstand, brother. If you remember back in Open Beta, there was a planned nerf for our Stealth Mechanic that was supposed to be imposed upon Live Launch. But they didn't pull through with it, because it was a really stupid nerf, and they themselves admitted that it was not the way to rework Stealth. But if by any chance they're planning to do the same thing just because the population of TR's nowadays are much lower than before... then IDK anymore. That's no balance.

Basically all our at-wills drained a significant amount of Stealth whenever we attacked. Duelist's Flurry doesn't even last one Stealth Meter. By the time you get to the last hit, Stealth is removed. Us PVP-ers could live with that in all honesty, but in PVE the viability of the rogue would have went down the drain even further because majority of the damage we deal in PVE is done in Stealth. A lot of our class feats support playing in Stealth.

Stealth provides us with Combat Advantage, and it would have affected the following feats.
- Action Advantage.
- Underhanded Tactics.
- Berserk Vitality

Also, we have a LOT of feats that work in conjunction with Stealth which would have made them utterly useless if the nerf was passed.
- Cunning Stalker (Sab)
- Sneaky Stabber (Sab)
- Sneak of Shadows (Sab)
- Brutal Backstab (Exe)

Those, and such a lazy nerf for Stealth would also make Battlefield Skulker Set and Profound PVP Set bonuses completely useless as they increase a player's damage by 5%/7.5% respectively while in Stealth. All these because of some simple PVP Q.Q's. Now if they really want to remove permastealth from the game, all they have to do is to remove Bait and Switch's ability to replenish Stealth and it's over. No more permastealth, no need to rework Stealth. Everyone gets to live happily ever after. They should have done this before live launch. I just can't imagine what reasons they had to not do it, because it offers so much gain with very minimal risks and damages to the TR class. They could have just given Bait and Switch a separate ability other than a Stealth Refill. They did it with Sneak Attack, Deft Strike, etc. What's stopping them from reworking BnS.

I still think it was a good idea, just poorly implemented. I personally think it would still work IF! They increased stealth (base) by about 1 second. Added in a SLIGHT reduction to stealth when using an at will, the reason it didnt work before (like you mentioned) is that at wills took too much stealth away and the stealth meter isnt all that long to begin with. If they made at wills take a tab bit less stealth away than it was before and increased the base duration that would be a fair balance I think.

I also would love to see a rework of Lashing Blade, so that it does half its damage upfront and half of its damage in a DOT over say 5-6 seconds, then remove the 100% crit while stealthed and instead give it a 50% reduced CD when used in stealth. This would boost the overall DPS of the skill a tad.

Another easy fix for the class is to either remove or nerf the run speed class feature that gives you 30% more run speed while in stealth... Im sorry but I dont think any player full invisible should have a faster run speed than a person not in stealth. So either nerf that to 15% (from 30%) since thats pert of the reason the perma build works OR just remove that altogether and provide some other class feature...

If you changed some of these things, like stealth drain/run speed feature/lashing you could then provide buffs in other areas to the class for PVE purposes like smoke bomb - deals damage to everything caught in the smoke OR has reduced DR/deflect something along those lines.

Give the TR utility tools that can be useful to help them survive or deal more damage.


The biggest issue currently with TRs from my experience in pvp is honestly the run speed issue... When the TR can move faster than any other player while in stealth - that should be a red flag. Even when feated it should at best give you normal run speed while stealthed

demonmonger

Original DnD had skill called Hide In Plain Sight
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Hide_In_Plain_Sight_(DnD_Hide_Skill_Use)
http://web.fisher.cx/robert/infogami/On_thief_skills_in_classic_D&D
Why don't they use this method on TR here?

Example:
TR hides without being in combat mode duing pvp = 100% chance success
TR hides in combat mode = chance that the person targeting them can see them while in stealth mode (maybe based on tenacity)

Do not make any changes to stealth duration based on our combat at wills or encounters. All of that is fine.

Thanks for unmuting me from forums.

norsemanx

irk2013 wrote: »

What viability are you talking about that you MUST have a long stay in stealth? Unless you are talking being able to solo epic dungeons which is BS and needs to be changed.

Why does that need to be changed? Why does it bother you? The current meta is that only CWs and GWFs are wanted on dungeon groups really. Yes there are some charitable guild groups that will take pity and take other classes along but...isn't fixing that a larger priority? Right now it seems that people with this complaint are saying something along the lines of "My CW or GWF should have all the loots!".
Other than a few instances where an early boss drops decent stuff, soloing a dungeon takes forever. It's hardly a threat.

What I am saying is see the larger picture. There are many balance issues in this game that need to be addressed but the campaign to make this class useless beyond running dailies is ridiculous.

Step up. Propose some ideas to make TRs and other classes wanted in dungeons. Propose ideas to make TRs viable in pvp with less stealth. As it is now and instealthed TR is a ragdoll and easy prey for GWF knockdowns and such without the avoidance provided by stealth.

And as an aside, how can anyone want to nerf anything when GWFs still exist in their current form?

ETA: I also play a GF and an HR in pvp and rarely find TRs to be a problem and thats even with these two classes running in T1 gear with no tenacity. Every once in a while I get caught off my guard and get hit hard but thats no different than if I let that CW get ahold of me from waaaaay over there or don't get hammered by that GWF heading my way. The ONLY problem I have going against TRs in pvp is that goofy perma build using ITC. I had a match once where two TRs managed to hold our home base for the whole match and my team decided they would go over there and play with them the whole match. Clearly we should have just held the other two points and would have won. But when folks aren't smart enough....yeah they can be a PITA. For pvp purposes I wouldn't care if ITC went away.

lartho

olegsander wrote: »

Alright I very rarely post on that forum, I'm a lurker. But sometimes it's really needed.
The best start would be to make Shadow Strike not refill stealth if dodged. It would solve a lot of the issues in PvP, and would not affect PvE. Then we could see where we go from here.

If I were not a lazy *** I'd start a thread for this suggestion. Hopefully someone who is more active than I am will do it.

Totally agree with you.
An option they could give to B&S, instead of refilling Stealth, could be a little stunning attack when it expires, a kind of little smoke bomb.