Leveling mine right now, lvl 14. Im trying to maximize the potential of the class by starting out with ranged and when they get into melee, I drop into melee abilities. Seems to work but Im taking a bit of dmg too..:(
Shortest immunity window in the game on dodge, often bugs out due to server latency.
Oversupplied, you will find a lot of people groaning when you try to get yet another HR into their group.
The HR doesn't bring as much survivability as a GWF, or as much CC as a CW, and is trumped in DPS by either. It doesn't do anything particularly brilliantly, and there's always a better choice to fill that slot. It's a half-baked class, much like the GWF was before Mod 2 dropped. Hopefully, it will get similar treatment to make it a net contributor rather than a net cost for a group in dungeons. Stacking them makes groups obviously and demonstrably worse.
They look really good at first, at low levels and GS. However, once you get to the higher end, suddenly, they drop off without warning, and turn out to be rather.. how do you say this? Lame and gutless.
That said, I kept a GWF running before they were any good, too. Back then, there was a lot of self-denying rhetoric from people who weren't sure what a good group actually looked like, yelling that GWF was valuable and viable to a group, despite being rubbish, because it brought marginal buffs- and a few oddballs making unsubstantiated claims of world-destroying deeps. That's the situation with HR right now.
Remember than any alleged buffs would need to increase sustained DPS by over 33% across the other three dps-dealing team members, for it to be more effective than just dropping a slightly less geared GWF or CW into that slot. Suffice it to say that any ancillary benefits that HRs of any sort bring to a party in PvE are nowhere near that valuable.
There's no pragmatic reason to make an HR if you want to be valuable to team mates, and don't already have one each of the useful classes. If, like me, you have almost everything else at lv 60 in full t2 etc.*, you might end up just making one for something to do, for fun. If you do that, make sure that all the people that you have dragged through t2s to gear their HRs get back on their "useful" characters to drag you through T2s in return also
* Yeah, I couldn't face making a GF at all, so far. However, if it's too long before the next content drop, it may yet come to that.
Shortest immunity window in the game on dodge, often bugs out due to server latency.
Oversupplied, you will find a lot of people groaning when you try to get yet another HR into their group.
The HR doesn't bring as much survivability as a GWF, or as much CC as a CW, and is trumped in DPS by either. It doesn't do anything particularly brilliantly, and there's always a better choice to fill that slot. It's a half-baked class, much like the GWF was before Mod 2 dropped. Hopefully, it will get similar treatment to make it a net contributor rather than a net cost for a group in dungeons. Stacking them makes groups obviously and demonstrably worse.
They look really good at first, at low levels and GS. However, once you get to the higher end, suddenly, they drop off without warning, and turn out to be rather.. how do you say this? Lame and gutless.
That said, I kept a GWF running before they were any good, too. Back then, there was a lot of self-denying rhetoric from people who weren't sure what a good group actually looked like, yelling that GWF was valuable and viable to a group, despite being rubbish, because it brought marginal buffs- and a few oddballs making unsubstantiated claims of world-destroying deeps. That's the situation with HR right now.
Remember than any alleged buffs would need to increase sustained DPS by over 33% across the other three dps-dealing team members, for it to be more effective than just dropping a slightly less geared GWF or CW into that slot. Suffice it to say that any ancillary benefits that HRs of any sort bring to a party in PvE are nowhere near that valuable.
There's no pragmatic reason to make an HR if you want to be valuable to team mates, and don't already have one each of the useful classes. If, like me, you have almost everything else at lv 60 in full t2 etc.*, you might end up just making one for something to do, for fun. If you do that, make sure that all the people that you have dragged through t2s to gear their HRs get back on their "useful" characters to drag you through T2s in return also
* Yeah, I couldn't face making a GF at all, so far. However, if it's too long before the next content drop, it may yet come to that.
Nice write up. Thanks.
I simply like the mechanics a bit more than my GWF or TR, and I watched a video where some sick guy was solo'ing one of the dungeons. Looked like survivability was high, and I've sort of seen that myself. Still low level, but in tower district I ran into too many mobs, around 15 maybe after dodging aggro'ed a few other groups. Between my cheap quick dodges, and escape abilities, I was able to stay alive. Now, my GWF could have probably sat there and face tanked it all. My TR would have been stealthed most of the time and took each of them out.
Ive got a DC and GWF to 60 with OK'ish gear (I took breaks before diving into things like CN)...Ive got a TR in the wings at lvl 36 or something. Maybe I should continue to level her.
I do find HR fun though, and while I dont need to be the most OP or doing top damage, I don't want to be a detriment or "just another HR" in a sea of bow-wielding players...
Oh, you're welcome- I hope it prevents any nasty surprises further down the line.
On the upside, given Cryptic's lack of finesse in balancing, they will probably try to fix things by buffing the HR to the point where it will become a monster, further down the line, like as not. At that point, having one in the stables good to go, will be fun.
I enjoy the mechanics somewhat, too- it's just a bit of a pain that my HR, despite a lot of tweaking, seems less dangerous at 14k than most of my other chars were when they were 12k. I am also sick to my little sparkly unicorn gills of joining a group to find it stuffed with weaksauce HRs, especially if it's Karrundax or somewhere similar. It just tells me that it's going to be slower, more tedious and more chaotic than it needs to be
Hopefully they'll have a new paragon for HRs soon, and get something similar to Deep Gash for GWFs, where it's 1st tier in the tree so all specs can choose it, and have a bleed whenever we crit.
Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
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teflondon75Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Hopefully they'll have a new paragon for HRs soon, and get something similar to Deep Gash for GWFs, where it's 1st tier in the tree so all specs can choose it, and have a bleed whenever we crit.
Barbed/serrated arrow heads, would be nice wouldn't it
On the upside, given Cryptic's lack of finesse in balancing, they will probably try to fix things by buffing the HR to the point where it will become a monster, further down the line, like as not. At that point, having one in the stables good to go, will be fun.
OR they get it right this time, or not, and just buff them mildly leaving the two other classes to not be named firmly in top spots for overall party contributions haha. I really don't want to put mine down either, I have investments made and time/effort thinking it through etc for this HR now and that really irks me knowing I could be bringing more on my CW/GWF. The scary part is how long could we have to wait for a look at? Months, less/more, who knows =/
If you and the people you run with don't press the incredibly misleading 'x' button, the HR is great to have in a party. Some people are concerned with fast dungeon runs, which is fine as it allows multiple runs and can be fun and challenging. Some care about paingiver stats which can provide satisfaction to people building strong dps toons. But a Ranger's role in a party won't show up in either of these instances.
The Nature HR can provide enough mitigation and healing to take a team through T2 dungeons without a DC. Believe me, I've done it. All the way through Frozen Heart with a CW, 2 HRs (one was ranged, one was me) a TR and a GWF who was a major bad@$$.
Combat HRs are really fun in PvP and can even go toe to toe with GWFs. In PvE the combat mechanics are very satisfying and even without feats, some of the buffs are useful to take pressure of the healer.
Archer HRs are a CWs best friend. Aspect of the Pack gives a huge damage boost at range and Split the Sky and grasping roots are effective at slowing down mobs that feel like attacking the CW or DC if they pull aggro. GWFs used to be best suited for burning down adds in boss fights, but with the changes, they are great for tanking. Ranged HRs now fill that role perfectly (killing the archers in FH immediately comes to mind). As for adding damage, throwing a Rain of Arrows on the Singularity or the boss when it comes off cool down is very effective. And when I'm running my DC, I know I never have to worry about the Ranged HR because of his survivability and mobility.
So, in my opinion, HRs can be fun to play and are viable all the way through T2s. The party won't break any records, but it's a smooth ride.
*Legit Community*
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The Nature HR can provide enough mitigation and healing to take a team through T2 dungeons without a DC. Believe me, I've done it. All the way through Frozen Heart with a CW, 2 HRs (one was ranged, one was me) a TR and a GWF who was a major bad@$$.
Sadly, that doesn't show that nature HR is useful, just that GWF is amazing.
I've done FH in a PUG with 2x Archery HR, two TRs and my GWF. On the first and second bosses, I just tanked and killed all the adds while the team killed the boss. On the last boss, I ended up kiting them all (I am not sure how, it seemed to be almost like self-heal threat is a thing, answers on a postcard), while I was still slotted for single target DPS, after the HR who was trying to kite died.
20% is useful. However, just watch this GWF POV Video that was posted in the general forums and then join me in crying myself to sleep for the next week(kidding, but this is plainly redonkulous) If this is how GWF play is at high levels then they do not @need@ anybody else.
I think what kattefjaes and some others here feel is that yes, HR's can be fun and yes they can be good(even pretty great) for a mid range party etc. But at high end gear + skill(not one OR the other...both) it simply lags behind the God classes like CW/GWF etc. But then, what class doesn't?
I run more PvP than PvE and I can tell you that people do not fear HR's in GG, it's Always the GWF's(tank 5-8 people? Kill a few of them? Escape and actually live? all three) first and CW next. TR not so much here as the battlefield is simply to large/too many people/Too much AoE being thrown about. 5V5 it's Again, GWF then CW/TR to a slightly lesser extent. HR is again not bad here at all. Just not when compared to equal skill/geared of those classes, IMO at least.
This is a PvE thread though and so far my PvE experience since being back to the game is that I do great on my HR. I'm Often top damage but I KNOW the people I've played with are mostly average skill/gear levels. An occasional 15K but mostly 11-13K and just regular Joe's skill wise. One thing I do know, no HR will ever do the above ^^ Not in all R10's and perfects.
Teflon; look really close at that video. The GF has a KC set which is providing 60% of his power. Also the GF is throwing into the fray which is giving him extra AP. At least one of those CWs has vizier (look at the row of buffs under the character icon) that is to say you are seeing a GWF being played well and half the party boosting his DPS and up-time. Not to say the current version of GWF is not fairly broken. Just saying that on the topic of buffs/ de-buffs a good chunk of that paingiver score is being provided by the rest of the party. Would not be surprised if there was also a plaguefire and/or terror in the mix as well.
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teflondon75Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Teflon; look really close at that video. The GF has a KC set which is providing 60% of his power. Also the GF is throwing into the fray which is giving him extra AP. At least one of those CWs has vizier (look at the row of buffs under the character icon) that is to say you are seeing a GWF being played well and half the party boosting his DPS and up-time. Not to say the current version of GWF is not fairly broken. Just saying that on the topic of buffs/ de-buffs a good chunk of that paingiver score is being provided by the rest of the party. Would not be surprised if there was also a plaguefire and/or terror in the mix as well.
ohh certainly! I know there is a ton of debuffs. But there are times when he runs ahead and is just wrecking things/living through it all anyhow. They were talking about GWF's above so I just thought of this video, even with all those same buffs a HR could never, not even close, replicate such a thing. As mentioned though, likely no other class could either(CW, but not just face tanking like that lol) and really I don't think any class should.
I'm also quite likely a bit cranky at seeing nothing but GWF's in GG chasing after me, seemingly taking almost no damage and 1-2-3 KO'ing me with what appears to be the skill of their head rolling across their keyboard. lol.
Actually I'll ask this as well, how was he @Skilled@? When I used to play my main was a DC, back when we had aggro from everything. I had to be aware of Everything, every person, every red circle that was invariably underneath me, the DC, etc etc. On my hunter now I, again, somehow seem to have aggro on a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton and I do Not shoot off into the distance etc. I have to watch things, and move...a lot.
This GWF doesn't have to do squat. He/she hits things...and stands in red zones because he can. That is a product of gear(which is metric <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> tons better than mine, certainly) and a broken class, IMO at least. Am I missing something? I'm not that knowledgeable of GWF play even though I have a 60 from way back.
It has to do with the determination mechanic. Determination is how they fuel unstoppable and what is weird about determination compared to anything like it in the game is it degrades over time. A GWF with a full stack of determination will lose it merely by not being in combat for a while. I used to think they were childishly chasing DPS when they did that 'run ahead of everyone' thing. Actually they are afraid they will lose determination or an unstoppable because they were disengaged too long. This also explains why they often kick bigger mobs (like the one you just fired a rain at) at the end of a cycle (removing it from the area that was going to kill it). Unstoppable is off and they want to CC whatever can CC them and build more determination while it is down. I actually took a couple of days and leveled a GWF to figure out what was going on on the other side of the keyboard.
What you are seeing in PVP is that they have access to the GF tree now. Which means they can stock more CCs in encounter slots. In PVP that means they can almost perma-prone like a GF can. If you'll notice most of them are not using those CCs in PVE. As to face tanking DK is actually one of the few places I cannot do that with my HR. It should be noted I am playing a hybrid with a lot of life steal and the endless consumption boon. Which I do not see very often. And face-tanking is a weird dance because you still need to dodge CCs, while making sure you are doing enough damage to fill your life bar, while rotating encounters only 1/2 of which you can see the timers on......
It has to do with the determination mechanic. Determination is how they fuel unstoppable and what is weird about determination compared to anything like it in the game is it degrades over time. A GWF with a full stack of determination will lose it merely by not being in combat for a while. I used to think they were childishly chasing DPS when they did that 'run ahead of everyone' thing. Actually they are afraid they will lose determination or an unstoppable because they were disengaged too long..
Yep This is also why they seem either blind to red patches, or actively seeking them.. I know that my GWF needs quite a lot of incoming damage to do optimal DPS, hence pulling and face tanking entire rooms. The thing is, once you get the hang of how much damage you can take and how often you need to sprint out of danger, you can often just fight and kill everything in a given pull, and often in a boss fight- often without healing.
That said, there is a synergy that makes it worth having a single HR in a group for a GWF. Split The Sky keeps a control effect up, which triggers Trample The Fallen/Battle Trample- which is a nice DPS boost for sentis. However, given that HRs progressively impair a group as you stack them, due to sub-par DPS and control, I would never willingly stack them. I tend to leave groups with too many HRs, even when I am on my own HR, as I just know that while we might clear the instance, it's going to be more poorly-controlled and tedious than most of the other class mixes (barring stacking TRs).
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
I tend to leave groups with too many HRs, even when I am on my own HR, as I just know that while we might clear the instance, it's going to be more poorly-controlled and tedious than most of the other class mixes (barring stacking TRs).
actually i'd much rather stack tr than hr. TR have way better cc than hr, namely smoke bomb. They also dont scatter <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> everywhere like multiple hr teams do. There is no class id rather stack less than hr. Id even rather have multiple gf than hr.
Stacking priority cw > gwf > tr > dc > gf > hr. Oddly enough thats also my class desirability list when forming groups, other than swapping dc and tr.
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teflondon75Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
actually i'd much rather stack tr than hr. TR have way better cc than hr, namely smoke bomb. They also dont scatter <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> everywhere like multiple hr teams do. There is no class id rather stack less than hr. Id even rather have multiple gf than hr.
Stacking priority cw > gwf > tr > dc > gf > hr. Oddly enough thats also my class desirability list when forming groups, other than swapping dc and tr.
This is soooo heartening lol. I suppose this is bad karma somehow, I do not play GWF at all now but have a 60 from back when they were in the same boat =/ Awesome.
Yep This is also why they seem either blind to red patches, or actively seeking them.. I know that my GWF needs quite a lot of incoming damage to do optimal DPS, hence pulling and face tanking entire rooms. The thing is, once you get the hang of how much damage you can take and how often you need to sprint out of danger, you can often just fight and kill everything in a given pull, and often in a boss fight- often without healing.
That said, there is a synergy that makes it worth having a single HR in a group for a GWF. Split The Sky keeps a control effect up, which triggers Trample The Fallen/Battle Trample- which is a nice DPS boost for sentis. However, given that HRs progressively impair a group as you stack them, due to sub-par DPS and control, I would never willingly stack them. I tend to leave groups with too many HRs, even when I am on my own HR, as I just know that while we might clear the instance, it's going to be more poorly-controlled and tedious than most of the other class mixes (barring stacking TRs).
Depends on the HR. I end up stuck in right on top of the pile half the time. Ranged Hr sure that happens. Not so much with hybrids. I'll end up shoulder to shoulder with the GWF stacking all the aggro in a nice tight pile to dump on. Which means we are both target rich for AOEs and get full benefit from Pack...
HR is hybrid class - if someone try to use it in one direction only he lose from his potential. HR have 6 encounters and he must use often them if no = less DPS. This is class weakness and strength in the same time.
The big weakness on HR is it bad design. Like:
ME and Sniper's Aim feat, if I use MR and I want to use something from dagger then I will get half from SA feat when I go back with ME.
Binding Arrow and RoA in PVP the target can just run around RoA till he is rooted. Yes, the RoA is maybe second powerful skill after AS but it is hard to be used.
Split the Sky is useful only when there is 4++ mobs because lighting can chaining but StS hit rare if there is 1-2 targets.
Etc...
Use RS only if you cannot use anything other. But HR must understand that Split shot > RS. So RS is useful only if HR must not get agro (no GF/ high dps CW or something) till tank/support boss.
Again well played HR can do some things but not much because most of it encounters are broken other are specific. So HR must use this one that work well in situation.
I can to be second or third in DPS with 15k+ party and I work on my DPS so I hope to find better combinations from skills. But this class have potential to be better if Cryptic fix some things.
I can to be second or third in DPS with 15k+ party and I work on my DPS so I hope to find better combinations from skills. But this class have potential to be better if Cryptic fix some things.
The hilarious thing is that we need to work so hard to even be mediocre on an HR. On other chars, I can slack, and talk on the phone, and bring more of value to the party
The hilarious thing is that we need to work so hard to even be mediocre on an HR. On other chars, I can slack, and talk on the phone, and bring more of value to the party
This is the proper role for the CW/ GWF to grind the game while semi-afk. Most games have an easy button. Not my idea of 'fun'.
The hilarious thing is that we need to work so hard to even be mediocre on an HR. On other chars, I can slack, and talk on the phone, and bring more of value to the party
I agree alot here, and I agree with your first post except ... HRs are useful especially in PvE where 80% of your DPS comes from either a HR and a CW or two HRs.
I frequently, efficiently achieve Paingiver/Executioner with my HR in almost every group run I do. Admittedly I'm not to t2 runs yet so that can always change but I really don't see the proof that Hunter Rangers are half-baked garbage. I solo every dungeon I possibly can with great success and survivability.
In PvP it is indeed another story, and the differences in classes jump out to slap you in the face. We simply don't get enough control over the situation to warrant our severe lack of mitigation. Roots are somewhat of a joke compared to the effectiveness of Prones, Stuns, and Controls (the largest factor being YOU CAN STILL ATTACK & USE YOUR ABILITIES IF YOU'RE ROOTED, it's completely worthless against CWs and other HRs).
I especially agree with the faultiness of our Dodge. Marauder's is easily our most useful skill in positioning yourself where you'd be useful. That being said, it's quite annoying when a Strong Grasping root does little to affect the incoming rush of a GWF and lends a certain feeling of impotency to the HRs skill set.
I agree alot here, and I agree with your first post except ... HRs are useful especially in PvE where 80% of your DPS comes from either a HR and a CW or two HRs.
I frequently, efficiently achieve Paingiver/Executioner with my HR in almost every group run I do. Admittedly I'm not to t2 runs yet so that can always change but I really don't see the proof that Hunter Rangers are half-baked garbage. I solo every dungeon I possibly can with great success and survivability.
Yes, this is a common experience. HRs look brilliant as the mechanics are dramatic and exciting, and lots of things go "swoosh"*. Sadly, the crux of the matter is "admittedly I'm not to t2 runs yet". HRs look really strong in low level stuff, but you're going to get a horrible shock when you group with some properly specced and geared endgame CWs and GWFs. If they're not totally inept, you will be little better than filler- assuming you're good enough to not be an actual hindrance to the group with careless use of Marauder's and Split Shot to pull all sorts of unwanted adds.
I have had a lot of fun tweaking my HR to improve my damage output- and I can indeed hold my own against other HRs, bad CWs and poor GWFs. However, I am not going to delude myself that the class is anything but broken and gimped as is in PvE, as I have tasted the difference on my own CW and GWF.
It's almost like they only tested the HR against toytown content in poorly-played/geared groups.. surely not?
* Not sarcastic, amazingly. I like the light shows and swooping about, it's like being Batman
I think it's important to separate the players from the class. Because the HR is a new class, there are a lot of people playing them, even some that probably won't be soon. I think those are the ones drawing tons of aggro and adding faraway mobs to your fights.
A good player playing an HR can be very effective. I have top dps'd (not that that's the only objective in a party) in MC, CN and GG DK, for a couple examples. All this damage while NOT drawing aggro, protecting the CW and providing him ranged combat advantage and providing CC (slowing with Split the Sky and knocking prone with boar charge) and providing damage mitigation with boar skin.
I have yet to be an obligation to any party, and I have heard of many HRs that are more than useful enough to take into endgame dungeons.
*edit* Also, I was top of GG PvP until the last 30 seconds and someone overtook me. Again my point: don't let bad players ruin your opinion of the class!!!
*Legit Community*
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I think it's important to separate the players from the class. Because the HR is a new class, there are a lot of people playing them, even some that probably won't be soon. I think those are the ones drawing tons of aggro and adding faraway mobs to your fights.
People should probably realise that getting aggro per se isn't an issue in this game. It's not WoW, where mobs in heroics can two-shot squishies. It's also not WoW where tanking is absolutely essential. Neverwinter is a game where many mobs swarm, but few are a threat.
What is a problem is scattering mobs, and having a poorly-controlled fight. Pull as much aggro as you like, as an HR, and then kite it back over the AoE. Heck, you probably dropped Split The Sky over that area anyway, so it's in your personal interest or keep them there. Often, that will get them off you- though an HR is mobile enough to evade almost all melee mobs, too.. especially with StS up.
Also, don't forget Forest Ghost- it's bloody brilliant. Get the mobs back into the appropriate area first though, as a courtesy, and then pop FG. Remember not to shift, as it breaks the effect. At that point, the mobs will be all over your team mates again.
Remember, Neverwinter is not WoW. Anyone can pull aggro and live- CWs are the squishiest class of all, and frequently kite entire pulls around the room without trouble. Maintain situational awareness, stay awake. Use line of sight when dealing with ranged enemies. Just don't scatter things everywhere, it's the surest sign of a bad PvE-er.
No one can beat CW in dungeons in DPS if they are played with high GS because one little thing and this is max target penalty that other classes have on AOE skills but CW do not.
If you go with very good CW in CN and you get 5-10 rooms with mobs. In this situation HR (any class) will hit 5 target per hit CW will hit all them and will clean them. How you expect to have DPS like them ? I can said you - you cannot sorry. If CW have limit of 10-20 targets, then ok you will need to get rooms one by one but at moment you cannot compare DPS for any dungeon if you do not get mobs on small portions.
And do not talk about GWF because GWF do it in same direction like HR all is about who will hit mobs first and which skill you will use. I am not meet for moment GWF that will outdps me, only other HR or CW.
I am hardly try to use StS and I have feat for it but as I see in last my runs, I will need to delete it from my feats this skill is useless. It is better to use Thorn Ward coz in most situations this skill do more dmg.
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ulrenMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
This makes me a little unsure of continuing my ranger, if Im not exactly needed at endgame.. is it really that bad>?
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Very versatile however weak in melee as melee is really only meant to set up more powerful ranged.
Weak in melee range against a melee in PvP, they lack damage mitigation and die quickly unless you are a really good reactive player.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
The HR doesn't bring as much survivability as a GWF, or as much CC as a CW, and is trumped in DPS by either. It doesn't do anything particularly brilliantly, and there's always a better choice to fill that slot. It's a half-baked class, much like the GWF was before Mod 2 dropped. Hopefully, it will get similar treatment to make it a net contributor rather than a net cost for a group in dungeons. Stacking them makes groups obviously and demonstrably worse.
They look really good at first, at low levels and GS. However, once you get to the higher end, suddenly, they drop off without warning, and turn out to be rather.. how do you say this? Lame and gutless.
That said, I kept a GWF running before they were any good, too. Back then, there was a lot of self-denying rhetoric from people who weren't sure what a good group actually looked like, yelling that GWF was valuable and viable to a group, despite being rubbish, because it brought marginal buffs- and a few oddballs making unsubstantiated claims of world-destroying deeps. That's the situation with HR right now.
Remember than any alleged buffs would need to increase sustained DPS by over 33% across the other three dps-dealing team members, for it to be more effective than just dropping a slightly less geared GWF or CW into that slot. Suffice it to say that any ancillary benefits that HRs of any sort bring to a party in PvE are nowhere near that valuable.
There's no pragmatic reason to make an HR if you want to be valuable to team mates, and don't already have one each of the useful classes. If, like me, you have almost everything else at lv 60 in full t2 etc.*, you might end up just making one for something to do, for fun. If you do that, make sure that all the people that you have dragged through t2s to gear their HRs get back on their "useful" characters to drag you through T2s in return also
* Yeah, I couldn't face making a GF at all, so far. However, if it's too long before the next content drop, it may yet come to that.
Nice write up. Thanks.
I simply like the mechanics a bit more than my GWF or TR, and I watched a video where some sick guy was solo'ing one of the dungeons. Looked like survivability was high, and I've sort of seen that myself. Still low level, but in tower district I ran into too many mobs, around 15 maybe after dodging aggro'ed a few other groups. Between my cheap quick dodges, and escape abilities, I was able to stay alive. Now, my GWF could have probably sat there and face tanked it all. My TR would have been stealthed most of the time and took each of them out.
Ive got a DC and GWF to 60 with OK'ish gear (I took breaks before diving into things like CN)...Ive got a TR in the wings at lvl 36 or something. Maybe I should continue to level her.
I do find HR fun though, and while I dont need to be the most OP or doing top damage, I don't want to be a detriment or "just another HR" in a sea of bow-wielding players...
On the upside, given Cryptic's lack of finesse in balancing, they will probably try to fix things by buffing the HR to the point where it will become a monster, further down the line, like as not. At that point, having one in the stables good to go, will be fun.
I enjoy the mechanics somewhat, too- it's just a bit of a pain that my HR, despite a lot of tweaking, seems less dangerous at 14k than most of my other chars were when they were 12k. I am also sick to my little sparkly unicorn gills of joining a group to find it stuffed with weaksauce HRs, especially if it's Karrundax or somewhere similar. It just tells me that it's going to be slower, more tedious and more chaotic than it needs to be
Weaknesses: Powers are bugged, difficult class to master, lack of good HP boosting gear set, currently a dime a dozen, a few powers need attention.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
Barbed/serrated arrow heads, would be nice wouldn't it
OR they get it right this time, or not, and just buff them mildly leaving the two other classes to not be named firmly in top spots for overall party contributions haha. I really don't want to put mine down either, I have investments made and time/effort thinking it through etc for this HR now and that really irks me knowing I could be bringing more on my CW/GWF. The scary part is how long could we have to wait for a look at? Months, less/more, who knows =/
PVE:
Good to clean trash, average for boss fight. Need high Crit/WIS for best DPS.
PVP:
Very good as support killer, key factor in some fights (like killing on tanky GWF). Can facetank some of classes.
The Nature HR can provide enough mitigation and healing to take a team through T2 dungeons without a DC. Believe me, I've done it. All the way through Frozen Heart with a CW, 2 HRs (one was ranged, one was me) a TR and a GWF who was a major bad@$$.
Combat HRs are really fun in PvP and can even go toe to toe with GWFs. In PvE the combat mechanics are very satisfying and even without feats, some of the buffs are useful to take pressure of the healer.
Archer HRs are a CWs best friend. Aspect of the Pack gives a huge damage boost at range and Split the Sky and grasping roots are effective at slowing down mobs that feel like attacking the CW or DC if they pull aggro. GWFs used to be best suited for burning down adds in boss fights, but with the changes, they are great for tanking. Ranged HRs now fill that role perfectly (killing the archers in FH immediately comes to mind). As for adding damage, throwing a Rain of Arrows on the Singularity or the boss when it comes off cool down is very effective. And when I'm running my DC, I know I never have to worry about the Ranged HR because of his survivability and mobility.
So, in my opinion, HRs can be fun to play and are viable all the way through T2s. The party won't break any records, but it's a smooth ride.
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
Sadly, that doesn't show that nature HR is useful, just that GWF is amazing.
I've done FH in a PUG with 2x Archery HR, two TRs and my GWF. On the first and second bosses, I just tanked and killed all the adds while the team killed the boss. On the last boss, I ended up kiting them all (I am not sure how, it seemed to be almost like self-heal threat is a thing, answers on a postcard), while I was still slotted for single target DPS, after the HR who was trying to kite died.
The guy I played with that day disagrees.
20% mitigation is never NOT useful.
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
20% is useful. However, just watch this GWF POV Video that was posted in the general forums and then join me in crying myself to sleep for the next week(kidding, but this is plainly redonkulous) If this is how GWF play is at high levels then they do not @need@ anybody else.
I think what kattefjaes and some others here feel is that yes, HR's can be fun and yes they can be good(even pretty great) for a mid range party etc. But at high end gear + skill(not one OR the other...both) it simply lags behind the God classes like CW/GWF etc. But then, what class doesn't?
I run more PvP than PvE and I can tell you that people do not fear HR's in GG, it's Always the GWF's(tank 5-8 people? Kill a few of them? Escape and actually live? all three) first and CW next. TR not so much here as the battlefield is simply to large/too many people/Too much AoE being thrown about. 5V5 it's Again, GWF then CW/TR to a slightly lesser extent. HR is again not bad here at all. Just not when compared to equal skill/geared of those classes, IMO at least.
This is a PvE thread though and so far my PvE experience since being back to the game is that I do great on my HR. I'm Often top damage but I KNOW the people I've played with are mostly average skill/gear levels. An occasional 15K but mostly 11-13K and just regular Joe's skill wise. One thing I do know, no HR will ever do the above ^^ Not in all R10's and perfects.
ohh certainly! I know there is a ton of debuffs. But there are times when he runs ahead and is just wrecking things/living through it all anyhow. They were talking about GWF's above so I just thought of this video, even with all those same buffs a HR could never, not even close, replicate such a thing. As mentioned though, likely no other class could either(CW, but not just face tanking like that lol) and really I don't think any class should.
I'm also quite likely a bit cranky at seeing nothing but GWF's in GG chasing after me, seemingly taking almost no damage and 1-2-3 KO'ing me with what appears to be the skill of their head rolling across their keyboard. lol.
Actually I'll ask this as well, how was he @Skilled@? When I used to play my main was a DC, back when we had aggro from everything. I had to be aware of Everything, every person, every red circle that was invariably underneath me, the DC, etc etc. On my hunter now I, again, somehow seem to have aggro on a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton and I do Not shoot off into the distance etc. I have to watch things, and move...a lot.
This GWF doesn't have to do squat. He/she hits things...and stands in red zones because he can. That is a product of gear(which is metric <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> tons better than mine, certainly) and a broken class, IMO at least. Am I missing something? I'm not that knowledgeable of GWF play even though I have a 60 from way back.
What you are seeing in PVP is that they have access to the GF tree now. Which means they can stock more CCs in encounter slots. In PVP that means they can almost perma-prone like a GF can. If you'll notice most of them are not using those CCs in PVE. As to face tanking DK is actually one of the few places I cannot do that with my HR. It should be noted I am playing a hybrid with a lot of life steal and the endless consumption boon. Which I do not see very often. And face-tanking is a weird dance because you still need to dodge CCs, while making sure you are doing enough damage to fill your life bar, while rotating encounters only 1/2 of which you can see the timers on......
Yep
That said, there is a synergy that makes it worth having a single HR in a group for a GWF. Split The Sky keeps a control effect up, which triggers Trample The Fallen/Battle Trample- which is a nice DPS boost for sentis. However, given that HRs progressively impair a group as you stack them, due to sub-par DPS and control, I would never willingly stack them. I tend to leave groups with too many HRs, even when I am on my own HR, as I just know that while we might clear the instance, it's going to be more poorly-controlled and tedious than most of the other class mixes (barring stacking TRs).
Stacking priority cw > gwf > tr > dc > gf > hr. Oddly enough thats also my class desirability list when forming groups, other than swapping dc and tr.
This is soooo heartening
Depends on the HR. I end up stuck in right on top of the pile half the time. Ranged Hr sure that happens. Not so much with hybrids. I'll end up shoulder to shoulder with the GWF stacking all the aggro in a nice tight pile to dump on. Which means we are both target rich for AOEs and get full benefit from Pack...
The big weakness on HR is it bad design. Like:
ME and Sniper's Aim feat, if I use MR and I want to use something from dagger then I will get half from SA feat when I go back with ME.
Binding Arrow and RoA in PVP the target can just run around RoA till he is rooted. Yes, the RoA is maybe second powerful skill after AS but it is hard to be used.
Split the Sky is useful only when there is 4++ mobs because lighting can chaining but StS hit rare if there is 1-2 targets.
Etc...
Use RS only if you cannot use anything other. But HR must understand that Split shot > RS. So RS is useful only if HR must not get agro (no GF/ high dps CW or something) till tank/support boss.
Again well played HR can do some things but not much because most of it encounters are broken other are specific. So HR must use this one that work well in situation.
I can to be second or third in DPS with 15k+ party and I work on my DPS so I hope to find better combinations from skills. But this class have potential to be better if Cryptic fix some things.
The hilarious thing is that we need to work so hard to even be mediocre on an HR. On other chars, I can slack, and talk on the phone, and bring more of value to the party
I agree alot here, and I agree with your first post except ... HRs are useful especially in PvE where 80% of your DPS comes from either a HR and a CW or two HRs.
I frequently, efficiently achieve Paingiver/Executioner with my HR in almost every group run I do. Admittedly I'm not to t2 runs yet so that can always change but I really don't see the proof that Hunter Rangers are half-baked garbage. I solo every dungeon I possibly can with great success and survivability.
In PvP it is indeed another story, and the differences in classes jump out to slap you in the face. We simply don't get enough control over the situation to warrant our severe lack of mitigation. Roots are somewhat of a joke compared to the effectiveness of Prones, Stuns, and Controls (the largest factor being YOU CAN STILL ATTACK & USE YOUR ABILITIES IF YOU'RE ROOTED, it's completely worthless against CWs and other HRs).
I especially agree with the faultiness of our Dodge. Marauder's is easily our most useful skill in positioning yourself where you'd be useful. That being said, it's quite annoying when a Strong Grasping root does little to affect the incoming rush of a GWF and lends a certain feeling of impotency to the HRs skill set.
Yes, this is a common experience. HRs look brilliant as the mechanics are dramatic and exciting, and lots of things go "swoosh"*. Sadly, the crux of the matter is "admittedly I'm not to t2 runs yet". HRs look really strong in low level stuff, but you're going to get a horrible shock when you group with some properly specced and geared endgame CWs and GWFs. If they're not totally inept, you will be little better than filler- assuming you're good enough to not be an actual hindrance to the group with careless use of Marauder's and Split Shot to pull all sorts of unwanted adds.
I have had a lot of fun tweaking my HR to improve my damage output- and I can indeed hold my own against other HRs, bad CWs and poor GWFs. However, I am not going to delude myself that the class is anything but broken and gimped as is in PvE, as I have tasted the difference on my own CW and GWF.
It's almost like they only tested the HR against toytown content in poorly-played/geared groups.. surely not?
* Not sarcastic, amazingly. I like the light shows and swooping about, it's like being Batman
A good player playing an HR can be very effective. I have top dps'd (not that that's the only objective in a party) in MC, CN and GG DK, for a couple examples. All this damage while NOT drawing aggro, protecting the CW and providing him ranged combat advantage and providing CC (slowing with Split the Sky and knocking prone with boar charge) and providing damage mitigation with boar skin.
I have yet to be an obligation to any party, and I have heard of many HRs that are more than useful enough to take into endgame dungeons.
*edit* Also, I was top of GG PvP until the last 30 seconds and someone overtook me. Again my point: don't let bad players ruin your opinion of the class!!!
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
People should probably realise that getting aggro per se isn't an issue in this game. It's not WoW, where mobs in heroics can two-shot squishies. It's also not WoW where tanking is absolutely essential. Neverwinter is a game where many mobs swarm, but few are a threat.
What is a problem is scattering mobs, and having a poorly-controlled fight. Pull as much aggro as you like, as an HR, and then kite it back over the AoE. Heck, you probably dropped Split The Sky over that area anyway, so it's in your personal interest or keep them there. Often, that will get them off you- though an HR is mobile enough to evade almost all melee mobs, too.. especially with StS up.
Also, don't forget Forest Ghost- it's bloody brilliant. Get the mobs back into the appropriate area first though, as a courtesy, and then pop FG. Remember not to shift, as it breaks the effect. At that point, the mobs will be all over your team mates again.
Remember, Neverwinter is not WoW. Anyone can pull aggro and live- CWs are the squishiest class of all, and frequently kite entire pulls around the room without trouble. Maintain situational awareness, stay awake. Use line of sight when dealing with ranged enemies. Just don't scatter things everywhere, it's the surest sign of a bad PvE-er.
If you go with very good CW in CN and you get 5-10 rooms with mobs. In this situation HR (any class) will hit 5 target per hit CW will hit all them and will clean them. How you expect to have DPS like them ? I can said you - you cannot sorry. If CW have limit of 10-20 targets, then ok you will need to get rooms one by one but at moment you cannot compare DPS for any dungeon if you do not get mobs on small portions.
And do not talk about GWF because GWF do it in same direction like HR all is about who will hit mobs first and which skill you will use. I am not meet for moment GWF that will outdps me, only other HR or CW.
I am hardly try to use StS and I have feat for it but as I see in last my runs, I will need to delete it from my feats this skill is useless. It is better to use Thorn Ward coz in most situations this skill do more dmg.