Penalties for leaving are pointless. All you're going to get is people who give up and sit at the campfire instead of people who quit. You've fixed absolutely nothing in this manner. Not a thing.
they're also looking at camping penalties as well... so if this truly becomes a problem, then we can expect something to be implemented for camping in the future.
0
grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
edited February 2014
I read the blog and I like the matchmaking part. I also like the idea of 3 tiers and that there is a skill level. To that end I propose that the Tier and skill level be posted on the Character Sheet in a manner similar to: Tier 1 PvP skill 1000.
0
twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
edited February 2014
I've said it before, and I will say it again, if you want people to stick around in a match and participate, you have to give them an incentive, not threaten them into obeying.
Change how glory is awarded. Even in the face of a loss, award Glory to a team that tried. Multiply your base glory reward by (total GS of opposing team / total GS of your team). Not average GS, total GS, as this will also take into account players leaving the match. Give alternate ways to reward players who get stomped. Give players a positive reason to keep trying, and they will keep trying.
0
twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
they're also looking at camping penalties as well... so if this truly becomes a problem, then we can expect something to be implemented for camping in the future.
Which will lead to people jumping out of camp and finding some random corner to try to hide. They will do just enough to not earn a penalty. Penalties bad, incentive good.
I know all about the player quitting because he is getting trolled by an experienced guild/geared players, and I can understand that. Heck, I've done it myself. Simply pointless jumping down from your campfire and getting instajibbed while the score is 800 to 0. However, on the weekend I had two seemingly balanced PvP rounds end in the dump because players quit after they lost the lead.
On the first occasion my PUG fought back from 500 - 200 down to lead 800 - 600 and then one of the enemy players quit, followed by another. Why? I've won a PvP round when we were down 950 to 850 and we ended up winning by 20-odd points. It's not over until it is over.
Then on the second occasion we were down 300 - 100, but we had been fighting on mid node for about 5-minutes with no team able to stake a foothold. Eventually we lost it and I said to the party that if we focus middle we can get it back. Boom, two people quit. We were able to hurt and kill them, so why run away?
Think that's bad? I've had players quit while we were winning. And you can tell the difference between a disconnect and a flat out quit because a disconnect will stick around as a team member for a minute or two where as a quitter is immediately gone. Now that's not to say someone doesn't "disconnect" on purpose but a true disconnect does have a chance to rejoin the match. This happened just last night in a match I was in.
As for people who quit because they feel they're "carrying" the team. Grow up. First of all, as long as your team is winning why does it matter if you're "carrying" them or not? Ultimately you will end up winning and winning with the most points so its win/win for you. Plus, who are you to dictate how others play? When Im PvPing or running dungeons I don't care whos pulling more weight then the others, I just care that we win or finish the dungeon. Should I be insulted when as a PvE built HR I finish two matches in a row in first place with 22 kills, 20 assists and 1 death? Nope, just means more glory for me.
Some people quit because it's the only/best option. When your pug group runs to 2, gets rolled by a premade, and 3 people quit, you don't have a lot of options. When that premade turns out to be a bunch of... well, you know how some people can be, and ends up showing everyone how awesome they are by hanging out at the base of your camp, en masse, taunting the one or two players left who haven't even been able to hit the 500 point mark, while trying to glitch their way up to the campfire, what point does it make to stick around? You aren't earning any glory, you're just giving jerks an avenue to display their true nature without repercussion.
I've been on the other end of that as well, and I always try to make sure the ones who stick it out get their minimum score, then offer up some 1:1 if they are interested.
Speaking of 1:1, I did have a particular guild group make me that same offer. Killed their DC, killed their TR, then the GWF challenged me next and, what do you know, the TR and DC joined in as well. lol I guess the little squishy, lone CW hurt their ego?
Or the guild group I faced the other day, when I was the only one left in my party, sitting on my point talking with one of their group, when the rest comes up and attacks me 4:1. lol Good times.
People have to realize that acting like jerks turns a lot of people away from PvP. I'm not suggesting we all hold hands here and have a sing-a-long by the campfire, but at the same time, we need to generally be a little cognizant of ourselves as a community. If there isn't a solid PvP community, there isn't much incentive for the devs to bother with changes and new PvP content. If you foster a supportive, engaging community, it increases the chances that Cryptic works to support that community and make PvP a more engaging experience as well.
I agree with this one million percent. I've said it before, If I lose a match so be it, most likely it means the other team was just better then us. I have no problems taking my lumps and licking my wounds. But once a match becomes lopsided it no longer proves anything. You won because you had the advantage. Acting like an *** only proves you have no class.
Though Im not by any means a hardcore PvPer I can say I've tried PvP in every game I've ever played. Some experiences were better then others. But by far and with out a doubt I best PvP experience was in the VOC. And while I hated doing the city sieges I absolutely loved hanging out in the arena and PvP with players there. Do to the fact that there was no rewards and nothing to lose other then HP (and maybe some pride) it created a friendly atmosphere where I honestly made a lot of friends on both sides of the alliances. And it made PvP more fun in general because we all worked together to help each become better at PvP.
That it what this game truly lacks. A place where the community can go and try out stuff with each other for fun. Imagine how much fun PvP in this game would be if we go somewhere and work out strategies on how to deal with different builds and classes while not being in the middle of a battle.
0
grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
edited February 2014
Fine, institute the "They died gloriously fighting 3+ opponents Glory Reward (1-2 Glory each or 1 per second of survival) which will give the campers the option of picking up a little Glory or sitting around the campfire chewing the fat. And if you only need a few Glory for the Artifact or armor or Companion it's worth it. And you might survive 5 seconds.
they're also looking at camping penalties as well... so if this truly becomes a problem, then we can expect something to be implemented for camping in the future.
I've said it before, and I will say it again, if you want people to stick around in a match and participate, you have to give them an incentive, not threaten them into obeying.
Change how glory is awarded. Even in the face of a loss, award Glory to a team that tried. Multiply your base glory reward by (total GS of opposing team / total GS of your team). Not average GS, total GS, as this will also take into account players leaving the match. Give alternate ways to reward players who get stomped. Give players a positive reason to keep trying, and they will keep trying.
the way it was described by gentlemancrush from the valentine's day pvp with the devs stream (definitely paraphrased), playing in a pvp match is a commitment you make in-game and the idea is to get players to stick to that commitment. if you've got five minutes before you have to go somewhere, then you probably shouldn't join a pvp match.
and glory rewards will be different. you will get in addition to AD, 500 glory and one seal of triumph for your pvp daily reward. at least at level 60. it may be less in the lower levels.
0
twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
edited February 2014
Philosophical differences here, but then, I'm not a developer, just a user. I just feel like they are going about it the wrong way. You need to give people a positive reason to stay, not try to force them to stay via a penalty. I kind of look at it like, if people are quitting in large numbers, you need to find out why and address those concerns as a long term solution instead of negatively trying to force the issue at hand.
Now, I realize they are also doing that with the new matchmaking system and the reward changes, but I would have rather let those changes speak for themselves and see how it impacted the pvp community/experience on it's own before I put any negative reinforcement mechanics in place.
personally i think leavers should not be penalized on duration of requeing but penalized instead on glory points and astral diamonds. simply because they are there for mainly those reasons. if they was there for fun they'd stay all way through even if they lose. but to lose astral and glory points would have more of an effect on them. i think hittin a leaver where it counts will make game play more enjoyable. its harsh yes but fair nontheless cause them leaving effects other peeps glory points. fair is fair in love and war. haha
personally i think leavers should not be penalized on duration of requeing but penalized instead on glory points and astral diamonds. simply because they are there for mainly those reasons. if they was there for fun they'd stay all way through even if they lose. but to lose astral and glory points would have more of an effect on them. i think hittin a leaver where it counts will make game play more enjoyable. its harsh yes but fair nontheless cause them leaving effects other peeps glory points. fair is fair in love and war. haha
the problem with this scenario is what if someone doesn't have any glory points or astral diamonds? then what? the time penalty is pretty drastic considering it affects all queues, not just pvp.
pvp leavers are just a symptom to a problem that is already getting resolved with elo style matchmaking. this is something that we have yet to see in action, but hopefully it will do its job by matching skill for skill.
the problem with this scenario is what if someone doesn't have any glory points or astral diamonds? then what? the time penalty is pretty drastic considering it affects all queues, not just pvp.
pvp leavers are just a symptom to a problem that is already getting resolved with elo style matchmaking. this is something that we have yet to see in action, but hopefully it will do its job by matching skill for skill.
honestly im still waiting on you to reply to my other comments. in regards to the Elo system. As i have stated chess is 1v1 and pvp is 5v5. It is silly to introduce a system that is not in correlation to this style of play. In short it solves nothing. All it will do is give yet more reason for a person that is geared to run premades. Please be honest. Would you rather pug something and have a chance at lowering your ratings or would you take a team of geared killers? To me the choice is obvious. All i would like to know is why the hell do you guys seem to avoid the simple way of doing this....gs matching system, and class balance the two classes the community has complained about. Its not like people are only saying "nerf this class". You all have been provided with ample description as to why they are broken, and yet you do nothing. Balance the gwf and tr. Make them have to actually "play" the game. Once again as stated by most of the **** pvp community. ehhh no point in even really saying this other that my own frustration. because its not like the developers listen anyway. I swear its like there is a game developers monthly magazine they read while doing their business on the toilet in the morning. "omg this game has this! let me put it in my unbalanced, glitchy, exploitable, buggy, game....) Seriously. I'm not saying they are idiots. I am saying that some of the things they are doing is idiotic. Give the people what they have been asking for. Because it makes sense.
0
frost168Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
the problem with this scenario is what if someone doesn't have any glory points or astral diamonds? then what? the time penalty is pretty drastic considering it affects all queues, not just pvp.
pvp leavers are just a symptom to a problem that is already getting resolved with elo style matchmaking. this is something that we have yet to see in action, but hopefully it will do its job by matching skill for skill.
It's amazing how people are relying on the matchmaking system to "solve" all their problem when in reality, there are so many ways around this, or to manipulate it, it's not even funny. You don't really think the top pvp players, who understand game mechanics, don't already know how to keep their ello scores low ? I know many who are going to do this intentionally just to prove to the devs, THIS FIX IS THE WRONG WAY TO GO !!!
Comments
they're also looking at camping penalties as well... so if this truly becomes a problem, then we can expect something to be implemented for camping in the future.
Change how glory is awarded. Even in the face of a loss, award Glory to a team that tried. Multiply your base glory reward by (total GS of opposing team / total GS of your team). Not average GS, total GS, as this will also take into account players leaving the match. Give alternate ways to reward players who get stomped. Give players a positive reason to keep trying, and they will keep trying.
Which will lead to people jumping out of camp and finding some random corner to try to hide. They will do just enough to not earn a penalty. Penalties bad, incentive good.
Think that's bad? I've had players quit while we were winning. And you can tell the difference between a disconnect and a flat out quit because a disconnect will stick around as a team member for a minute or two where as a quitter is immediately gone. Now that's not to say someone doesn't "disconnect" on purpose but a true disconnect does have a chance to rejoin the match. This happened just last night in a match I was in.
As for people who quit because they feel they're "carrying" the team. Grow up. First of all, as long as your team is winning why does it matter if you're "carrying" them or not? Ultimately you will end up winning and winning with the most points so its win/win for you. Plus, who are you to dictate how others play? When Im PvPing or running dungeons I don't care whos pulling more weight then the others, I just care that we win or finish the dungeon. Should I be insulted when as a PvE built HR I finish two matches in a row in first place with 22 kills, 20 assists and 1 death? Nope, just means more glory for me.
I agree with this one million percent. I've said it before, If I lose a match so be it, most likely it means the other team was just better then us. I have no problems taking my lumps and licking my wounds. But once a match becomes lopsided it no longer proves anything. You won because you had the advantage. Acting like an *** only proves you have no class.
Though Im not by any means a hardcore PvPer I can say I've tried PvP in every game I've ever played. Some experiences were better then others. But by far and with out a doubt I best PvP experience was in the VOC. And while I hated doing the city sieges I absolutely loved hanging out in the arena and PvP with players there. Do to the fact that there was no rewards and nothing to lose other then HP (and maybe some pride) it created a friendly atmosphere where I honestly made a lot of friends on both sides of the alliances. And it made PvP more fun in general because we all worked together to help each become better at PvP.
That it what this game truly lacks. A place where the community can go and try out stuff with each other for fun. Imagine how much fun PvP in this game would be if we go somewhere and work out strategies on how to deal with different builds and classes while not being in the middle of a battle.
the way it was described by gentlemancrush from the valentine's day pvp with the devs stream (definitely paraphrased), playing in a pvp match is a commitment you make in-game and the idea is to get players to stick to that commitment. if you've got five minutes before you have to go somewhere, then you probably shouldn't join a pvp match.
and glory rewards will be different. you will get in addition to AD, 500 glory and one seal of triumph for your pvp daily reward. at least at level 60. it may be less in the lower levels.
Now, I realize they are also doing that with the new matchmaking system and the reward changes, but I would have rather let those changes speak for themselves and see how it impacted the pvp community/experience on it's own before I put any negative reinforcement mechanics in place.
the problem with this scenario is what if someone doesn't have any glory points or astral diamonds? then what? the time penalty is pretty drastic considering it affects all queues, not just pvp.
pvp leavers are just a symptom to a problem that is already getting resolved with elo style matchmaking. this is something that we have yet to see in action, but hopefully it will do its job by matching skill for skill.
honestly im still waiting on you to reply to my other comments. in regards to the Elo system. As i have stated chess is 1v1 and pvp is 5v5. It is silly to introduce a system that is not in correlation to this style of play. In short it solves nothing. All it will do is give yet more reason for a person that is geared to run premades. Please be honest. Would you rather pug something and have a chance at lowering your ratings or would you take a team of geared killers? To me the choice is obvious. All i would like to know is why the hell do you guys seem to avoid the simple way of doing this....gs matching system, and class balance the two classes the community has complained about. Its not like people are only saying "nerf this class". You all have been provided with ample description as to why they are broken, and yet you do nothing. Balance the gwf and tr. Make them have to actually "play" the game. Once again as stated by most of the **** pvp community. ehhh no point in even really saying this other that my own frustration. because its not like the developers listen anyway. I swear its like there is a game developers monthly magazine they read while doing their business on the toilet in the morning. "omg this game has this! let me put it in my unbalanced, glitchy, exploitable, buggy, game....) Seriously. I'm not saying they are idiots. I am saying that some of the things they are doing is idiotic. Give the people what they have been asking for. Because it makes sense.
It's amazing how people are relying on the matchmaking system to "solve" all their problem when in reality, there are so many ways around this, or to manipulate it, it's not even funny. You don't really think the top pvp players, who understand game mechanics, don't already know how to keep their ello scores low ? I know many who are going to do this intentionally just to prove to the devs, THIS FIX IS THE WRONG WAY TO GO !!!
See you in pvp !!!! Love this patch !