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Merlyn's nature spec HR tanky PvP build

jaotutjaotut Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
edited April 2014 in The Wilds
I've tried it all, Archery, Combat, Nature, and bit of hybrid, and for my playstyle, I've come to a conclusion that Nature spec is the best for tough premade matches. With all builds, you'll have to choose between more dps or survive a bit longer. Personally I choose to stay alive for longer to hold the point.

With my experience, I have been able to hold the node against 99% of the player base, the only ones that I have problems with are tough hard hitting sent GWFs (eg. Steamroller). I can even hold the point against 2 people for a while until I get some backup, and sometimes even kill both of them if I'm lucky. I think of myself as a hybrid between a DC and a dps'er.

Here's a link to my build:

http://nwcalc.com/hr?b=oy7:4slio:a6lv,13k3iii:6z000:60000:bu5u1&h=0&p=swd

and my character sheet:

kIpZpba.jpg

I have spec'ed to have Max CON, all my defense slots are all radiant, currently just over 34k hp. This is important, and the key to this build. My other points are all into DEX for max damage.

You will notice my crit to be very low, yes more crit is good if you want to kill stuff, but this build is made to outlast whoever you're fighting against, and not so much on burst damage. I'm currently using 3 Greater Tenebrous and 1 Azure in my Offense slots. You can switch them all to Azures to keep your crit up, especially if using vorpal.

[edit] - 27/02/2014, currently swapped a Radiant out for a Brutal enchantment, and also got Eye of Lathander artifact to get my defense up a bit higher. Also planning to swap some Greater Tenebrous out for Azures.

My encounters include:
Commanding Shot/Stag heart - This never leaves my bar, although I hardly ever use commanding shot due to long cast time, stag heart is just too good. I'm constantly giving myself and my team over 4k temp hp which last forever, and as long as they have that temp hp, they also get 10% extra defense. This synergies with GF's and DC's feats too. I always keep my eyes out and see who needs that buff to be topped up.

Constricting Arrow/Steel Breeze - Time this right after a CW uses shard, and when GWFs are not in unstoppable.

Fox's Cunning/Fox shift - I think 99% of HRs runs this, just make sure you have used a range encounter first to get 15% more damage for fox shift.

Binding Arrow/Oak Skin - Also a pretty good skill, to hold enemies off the node, and Oak skin to give everyone some regen and more defense.

Boar Hide/Boar charge - More defense for everyone, and Boar charge is fun, and crucial if you want to take a GWF down. This is a skill which is very good for combat spec HRs.

HRs have so many options to what skills we use, just need to pick some to create some good combos. I have chosen a defensive route to make sure myself and my team last a bit longer in the battlefield.

Dailies:
Disruptive Shot - Pretty obvious

Forest Ghost - Situational, as it has an animation, it's good to sneak onto the home and enemy base if there's enemies on them already

Class Features:
Aspect of the Lone Wolf - The less players you face, the more bonus mitigation you get

Stompstep Action - Althought Fox shift stompstep action bug is fixed, this is still great to reduce your cooldowns

Armor Set:
I'm using 4 piece Royal Guard, will I still use this when Tenacity is introduced? probably. I'll have to see if I can stay alive better on this set vs PvP sets. The reason I choose this set is to reduce my cooldown for encounters, namely Stag Heart. But we'll have to see how much temp hp this will give in next module with healing depression. If you're using another set, then you'll need to get quite a lot of recovery wherever you can.

Weapon/Armor Enchants:
I've been playing around with different weapon enchants. Perfect Feytouch and Greater Plague fires are good.
PF is a bit more effective if you're using Tenebrous to help proc it, and gives everyone a 9% more damage if you can get 3 stacks on someone.
Feytouch is good to reduce your opponent's damage while increasing your own. This is a very good enchant that most people don't seem to know or care about. It only half about half the uptime, and only encounters can proc it. When it does, your enemy is doing 12% less damage, while you're doing 12% more.

Otherwise Vorpal is good as long as your crit % is high enough. So for your offensive slots, you can choose between Greater Tenes, Azures, or Silvery.

For Armor Enchants, I switch between a soulforge and a perfect negation, the good thing is that you can switch between 2 armors in battle, so if 1 is on cooldown, then switch to the other. Negation is quite good when it procs and you're tanking against 3 players. For all defensive slots, just have radiants, as high rank as you can.

Artifacts:
Emblem of the Seldarine - This is one of the best PvP artifact, and you can save your teammates when they're low on health.

Blood Crystal Raven Skull - Great stats, and useful if you don't have Emblem.

Waters of Elah'zad - I think all HRs should be choosing this as their starting artifact, the stats are so good.

Lantern of Revelation - good offensive stats if you're lacking some, I usually use this instead of Blood Crystal Raven Skull as I'm lacking some crit points

Eye of Lathander - This is one of the hardest artifact to get, but if you can finally get one it can boost your Defense and Life Steal up, I swap this in if I'm fighting against a GWF 1v1, and depending on team compositions in both parties.
Merlin - CW Merlyn - HR Psylocke - TR Black Widow - GWF


Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
Post edited by jaotut on
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Comments

  • query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Question/suggestion. Why PVP? Just an idea I have been noodling around with but given the number of no-DC runs we are seeing lately the one thing that seems interesting about a nature build is that you could make a lesser DC stacked with heals and buffs that could still contribute more DPS than a DC. I'm not motivated enough to do 2 respecs and a lot of math to test it out. But the capstone doubles all your buffs, heals, and debuffs bringing it close to DC range. You lose the critocracy of ranged tree but you are not crit-build anyway so less of a loss. Stack power instead....
  • jaotutjaotut Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    query523 wrote: »
    Question/suggestion. Why PVP? Just an idea I have been noodling around with but given the number of no-DC runs we are seeing lately the one thing that seems interesting about a nature build is that you could make a lesser DC stacked with heals and buffs that could still contribute more DPS than a DC. I'm not motivated enough to do 2 respecs and a lot of math to test it out. But the capstone doubles all your buffs, heals, and debuffs bringing it close to DC range. You lose the critocracy of ranged tree but you are not crit-build anyway so less of a loss. Stack power instead....


    I'm sorry if I don't understand you question correctly. I have done quite a lot of PvE with this char, and without DC. This spec is quite good for that purpose as the buffs can help the party out a bit. However, I build this char pretty much for PvP.

    If you're asking 'Why PvP?', I'm not sure if you're asking why do I PvP, or why do people do PvP, or why I have chosen this spec for PvP. I do PvP because this is the only endgame to Neverwinter, and I think most people feel this is the only thing left to do in this game.

    What are these 2 respecs that you want to test out?

    If you're looking to do PvE, then get an ioun stone, or a cat, and stack all power onto that. Don't bother stacking any power on your gear for PvP. The damage gain is too insignificant for PvP.
    Merlin - CW Merlyn - HR Psylocke - TR Black Widow - GWF


    Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
  • query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    No I have a stone. Asking why PVP specifically because I can hypothetically see a role for a buff HR in PVe. 2 respecs because the game is so DPS centered that even if a nature build worked in PVE people would look at paingiver and discount it's effectiveness. So 1 respec to run it and anotther to switch back to something people would see as optimal. I am finagling the math and not sure. since you made the build I thought asking would be worth the time.
  • jaotutjaotut Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    If you're doing mainly PvE, then you should stick to Archery spec. I'm assuming you'll be running with a DC 99% of the time, so you shouldn't need to worry about buffing your team, just aim to do more damage to help clear the dungeons faster.

    If you have friends that are very geared already, then you can run pretty much anything without a DC, and this spec will be quite good for making things a bit smoother. I have done quite a lot of VT full runs and it turns out to be better to run without a DC if the group is high dps.
    Merlin - CW Merlyn - HR Psylocke - TR Black Widow - GWF


    Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
  • slushpsychoslushpsycho Member Posts: 657 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2014
    Feytouched increases your tooltip dmg by 12%, this is a increase that would later be further reduced unless you have enough armor pen to deal true dmg to your target.

    In which sense, P.Feytouched does not increase your dmg by 12%, it is often less than that.

    I have not tested the dmg reduced side, but I assume it works the same way as dmg increase. Therefore it also does not decrease your target's dmg by 12%, unless you are being dealt true dmg.

    Also one problem with Feytouched is that it can only trigger once every 20s, it doesn't matter if it is a different target, it would only come on every 20s. When compare to enchant like Bronzewood, the 20s clock is separated on targets.

    Overall feytouched is not as good as it looks on paper. I only see point of using it on GWF or DC, but in current patch P.vorpal wins over Feytouched for GWF pretty much all the time.
  • query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Oh that was my point,I mean I am archery specced and we do run without a DC more often than not. I don't think anyone is 'running with a DC 99% of the time" An awful lot of people are running without a DC lately. Which is what made me curious about the viability...
  • kaylos29kaylos29 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I tried out a nature spec tank build early on, but I was playing him as basically a low damage version of a melee HR, which didn;t make sense to do, so I switched to combat.

    I definitely see it as a viable way to though for a more ranged power set-up that isn't afraid to get close up. You can get up to 35% base DR if you stack to 2500 Defense. Add in lone wolf (25% DR from range), a 10 stack of Boar's Hide for 20%(easy to do at start of match or in between clashes, but only stacks 5 at a time making it hard in active skirmishing), 10% DR from stag's heart, and oak skin for 10% DR, and you can get up to 105% DR. It caps at 80%, but anything over counts against ArPen in PvP, so a TR would need over 25% ArPen just to get you below the 80% cap on an opening lashing blade.
    Mindflayer - Exodus
    Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
    Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
    Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
  • jaotutjaotut Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    It is quite great when TRs stealth up to me and do a lashing blade that doesn't seem to move my health bar much.

    Playing as a nature HR, you have to think of yourself as a support class and utilise the fact that all your buffs applies to your team. Scoring assists will be a lot higher than kills, so I can understand a lot of people prefer to have a higher dps playstyle. But I've heard people saying HRs are all squishy, or HRs having problems with being a massive glass cannon in PvP, I think they need to see the other side of HRs. I love how we're not stuck to one generic playstyle with this class.
    Merlin - CW Merlyn - HR Psylocke - TR Black Widow - GWF


    Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
  • kaylos29kaylos29 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    If their HR is a glass cannon as Ranged or Combat, they just do not know how to min/max damage to survival based on which stats give them the most. My combat HR no where near squishy, but I have 2500 defense, 30K HPs and my damage is still pretty imba focusing on ArPen, Power, and then crit. Crit is overrated as combat since the damage range of the weapons are lower and you already start with at least 23% base. But ranged's larger damage range will and feats will emphasize Crit/Arpen and while putting less emphasis on power.

    Defense is way better for HRs than people realize and the 15% run speed from pvp set is awesome as a combat HR. I have 30% run speed and it makes it really difficult for people to focus me even at melee range.
    Mindflayer - Exodus
    Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
    Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
    Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
  • vvv459vvv459 Member Posts: 161 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2014
    kaylos29 wrote: »
    If their HR is a glass cannon as Ranged or Combat, they just do not know how to min/max damage to survival based on which stats give them the most. My combat HR no where near squishy, but I have 2500 defense, 30K HPs and my damage is still pretty imba focusing on ArPen, Power, and then crit. Crit is overrated as combat since the damage range of the weapons are lower and you already start with at least 23% base. But ranged's larger damage range will and feats will emphasize Crit/Arpen and while putting less emphasis on power.

    Defense is way better for HRs than people realize and the 15% run speed from pvp set is awesome as a combat HR. I have 30% run speed and it makes it really difficult for people to focus me even at melee range.

    How did you come by the conclusion that crit isn't important?
    Many of us lament the grim choice of abandoning a lot of crit in the coming patch due to the only choice of a set being combatant.
    2500 defense is too much, you must be using azures, bad idea. use radiants.

    I'm using the dread weapon set atm and I have hit 3.3k arpen, way past dimishing returns, I need to get the fomorian set soon and the new combatant set will prune back arpen further.

    Arpen is a double edged sword, the more you have the more dps you do vs several other classes only. It's completely wasted on CWs and TRs for example because no matter what you do you will have over 30% arpen and they will at most have 25% DR.
    A balance needs to be maintained I think.
  • kaylos29kaylos29 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    vvv459 wrote: »
    How did you come by the conclusion that crit isn't important?
    Many of us lament the grim choice of abandoning a lot of crit in the coming patch due to the only choice of a set being combatant.
    2500 defense is too much, you must be using azures, bad idea. use radiants.

    I'm using the dread weapon set atm and I have hit 3.3k arpen, way past dimishing returns, I need to get the fomorian set soon and the new combatant set will prune back arpen further.

    Arpen is a double edged sword, the more you have the more dps you do vs several other classes only. It's completely wasted on CWs and TRs for example because no matter what you do you will have over 30% arpen and they will at most have 25% DR.
    A balance needs to be maintained I think.

    Actually I use a mix of 3 radiants and 2 brutals in my defensive slots. Did you miss the part where I said I had 30K HPs. Getting 2500 defense isn't too hard with the master predator set.

    ArPen gives greater returns than any other damage stat. The cost is very low in terms of stat points to % points all the way up to 3000, which I am close to. I do lose a little versus TRs and CWs, but the amount I gain versus every other class more is worth the trade off of gaining more crit. Add in DR increasing buffs from DCs, and that ArPen helps me against CWs and TRs as well.

    Crit is overrated for melee focused rangers. The vast majority of your attacks are combinations of small attacks. Even with my "low" crit of 1900, I still crit a lot. Also, I don't rely on burning down people in a single rotation, since I have a lot of survivability, so I am not as concerned with pushing my crit to crazy numbers stat wise in the hopes of gaining 6-7% more. Combat already starts with 18% base crit before ability score (23% base for me with 15 wisdom), so I only push my crit as far as I can without hitting DR too much. That allows me to focus more on power/arpen and defensive stats.

    I will make up lost ArPen from new combat set by using the archer weapon set and shifting my 2 radiants in offesive slots to darks. I don't rely on crit now, and I won't then even more so, but will make sure to get my crit to a decent level still.

    2500 defense is not too much, since stat wise in terms of % to stat cost, it increases rapidly until then. It is a good investment that when combined with ranger buffs, bives you a lot of durability that is not subject to the whims of rng from deflect. Also, your deflect is still decent even if a low stat since combat can have a 13% + ability score base to start with (20% base for me with 24 dex).
    Mindflayer - Exodus
    Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
    Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
    Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
  • vvv459vvv459 Member Posts: 161 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2014
    kaylos29 wrote: »
    Actually I use a mix of 3 radiants and 2 brutals in my defensive slots. Did you miss the part where I said I had 30K HPs. Getting 2500 defense isn't too hard with the master predator set.

    ArPen gives greater returns than any other damage stat. The cost is very low in terms of stat points to % points all the way up to 3000, which I am close to. I do lose a little versus TRs and CWs, but the amount I gain versus every other class more is worth the trade off of gaining more crit. Add in DR increasing buffs from DCs, and that ArPen helps me against CWs and TRs as well.

    Crit is overrated for melee focused rangers. The vast majority of your attacks are combinations of small attacks. Even with my "low" crit of 1900, I still crit a lot. Also, I don't rely on burning down people in a single rotation, since I have a lot of survivability, so I am not as concerned with pushing my crit to crazy numbers stat wise in the hopes of gaining 6-7% more. Combat already starts with 18% base crit before ability score (23% base for me with 15 wisdom), so I only push my crit as far as I can without hitting DR too much. That allows me to focus more on power/arpen and defensive stats.

    I will make up lost ArPen from new combat set by using the archer weapon set and shifting my 2 radiants in offesive slots to darks. I don't rely on crit now, and I won't then even more so, but will make sure to get my crit to a decent level still.

    2500 defense is not too much, since stat wise in terms of % to stat cost, it increases rapidly until then. It is a good investment that when combined with ranger buffs, bives you a lot of durability that is not subject to the whims of rng from deflect. Also, your deflect is still decent even if a low stat since combat can have a 13% + ability score base to start with (20% base for me with 24 dex).

    You are simplifying it too much. It doesn't matter whether you attack lot by little (low alpha) or attack a lot in burst (high alpha - ex: aimed shot)
    Over the course of a match crit % will show, by attacking a lot you will actually approximate your actual crit % even more - more samples = RNG evens out.

    So it all comes down to tradeoff between defense and offense.

    You are right about armor penetration having the best dimishing returns, or least the least bad.
    Look here:
    https://www.desmos.com/calculator/3dqpvhuavj

    However you are overlooking the fact that Power has an even less of a diminishing returns aspect.
    I'm not advocating stacking crit with enchants, only fools do that. I'm just saying that crit % is really valuable to dps and losing any is not optimal. Crit % with pvorpal is almost 1:1 with dps increase, will be less so after patch but still decent.

    Use the armor penetration equation to see how much % of armor penetration you gain after increasing your already existing armor penetration.

    A very rough estimate about Power (it will fluctuate depending on how much you have etc) is that 1000 Power gives 6% dps. I submit that it will beat armor penetration after 2500 or so. In light of that I will make no effort to deliberately stack arpen with enchants.
  • kaylos29kaylos29 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    vvv459 wrote: »
    You are simplifying it too much. It doesn't matter whether you attack lot by little (low alpha) or attack a lot in burst (high alpha - ex: aimed shot)
    Over the course of a match crit % will show, by attacking a lot you will actually approximate your actual crit % even more - more samples = RNG evens out.

    So it all comes down to tradeoff between defense and offense.

    You are right about armor penetration having the best dimishing returns, or least the least bad.
    Look here:
    https://www.desmos.com/calculator/3dqpvhuavj

    However you are overlooking the fact that Power has an even less of a diminishing returns aspect.
    I'm not advocating stacking crit with enchants, only fools do that. I'm just saying that crit % is really valuable to dps and losing any is not optimal. Crit % with pvorpal is almost 1:1 with dps increase, will be less so after patch but still decent.

    Use the armor penetration equation to see how much % of armor penetration you gain after increasing your already existing armor penetration.

    A very rough estimate about Power (it will fluctuate depending on how much you have etc) is that 1000 Power gives 6% dps. I submit that it will beat armor penetration after 2500 or so. In light of that I will make no effort to deliberately stack arpen with enchants.

    With perfect vorpal, crit is greater than 1:1, it is a 1.25:1 damage increase per % point. That being said, the diminishing returns on crit are the harshest of all stats and with tenacity, the ratio takes a big hit.

    1% is arpen is worth more than 1% damage all the time unless it is capped by being higher than your target's DR. If your target's DR is 50%, 1% arpen is worth a 2% damage increase.

    The only way to truly judge your power gains is by comparing your damage before and after. I have found the damage to tooltips in the power screen to be pretty accurate. So I generally use those. The problem for power starts with the fact your weapons already give you a higher starting power base, meaning its takes more and more power to equal a 1%. All stats face this issue on top of stat diminishing returns. But on top of that, the conversion of damage from power to actual damage varies by ratio for different powers. While it generally follows that the lower damage range weapons gain more from power, you have to examine each power to determine your actual gains. For instance, the power damage to actual damage conversion for Rapid Strike is very poor % wise. I actually found it to be pretty good for most HR encounters.

    For instance, you may expect bonus 250 power to give you a ratio of power of your weapon damage to your actual power. So if your average damage was 400, you would expect the 10 damage from 250 power to increase your overall average damage by 2.5%. Yet it almost never works out that way. It is almost always lower.

    I don't generally work in rough estimates, I attempt to account for actuals to include accounting for my effective HPs from damage resistance and how ArPen of my opponent affects those effective HPs. You only need 10% DR from 0% to match 20% deflect for effective HPs. That tells me that DR is much more valuable than deflect when it is cheap as it is below 2500 for providing survivability, especially when you combine it with the flat DR bonuses from lone wolf and boar's hide, since flat damage resistance bonuses get more and more effective the higher your base DR starts at. I alos look at the ArPen numbers I will face, including up to the 40% my GWF nearly has. Even against 40% ArPen, I will still take 1000 defense over 1000 deflect, since 1v1 against a GWF, I will still have around 55% DR to start with not including Boar's Hide which may or may not have charges.

    Of course the theoretics are great, but the proof is in actual application. In actual application, it has worked out great for me. I have even gotten comments about how resilient my HR is from randoms and other not so randoms that are pretty good players. I have played games against some of the top pvp guilds in the game and never once did I feel I had gimped myself by not focusing on crit or by boosting my Defense to 2500.
    Mindflayer - Exodus
    Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
    Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
    Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
  • vvv459vvv459 Member Posts: 161 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2014
    kaylos29 wrote: »
    With perfect vorpal, crit is greater than 1:1, it is a 1.25:1 damage increase per % point. That being said, the diminishing returns on crit are the harshest of all stats and with tenacity, the ratio takes a big hit.

    1% is arpen is worth more than 1% damage all the time unless it is capped by being higher than your target's DR. If your target's DR is 50%, 1% arpen is worth a 2% damage increase.

    The only way to truly judge your power gains is by comparing your damage before and after. I have found the damage to tooltips in the power screen to be pretty accurate. So I generally use those. The problem for power starts with the fact your weapons already give you a higher starting power base, meaning its takes more and more power to equal a 1%. All stats face this issue on top of stat diminishing returns. But on top of that, the conversion of damage from power to actual damage varies by ratio for different powers. While it generally follows that the lower damage range weapons gain more from power, you have to examine each power to determine your actual gains. For instance, the power damage to actual damage conversion for Rapid Strike is very poor % wise. I actually found it to be pretty good for most HR encounters.

    For instance, you may expect bonus 250 power to give you a ratio of power of your weapon damage to your actual power. So if your average damage was 400, you would expect the 10 damage from 250 power to increase your overall average damage by 2.5%. Yet it almost never works out that way. It is almost always lower.

    I don't generally work in rough estimates, I attempt to account for actuals to include accounting for my effective HPs from damage resistance and how ArPen of my opponent affects those effective HPs. You only need 10% DR from 0% to match 20% deflect for effective HPs. That tells me that DR is much more valuable than deflect when it is cheap as it is below 2500 for providing survivability, especially when you combine it with the flat DR bonuses from lone wolf and boar's hide, since flat damage resistance bonuses get more and more effective the higher your base DR starts at. I alos look at the ArPen numbers I will face, including up to the 40% my GWF nearly has. Even against 40% ArPen, I will still take 1000 defense over 1000 deflect, since 1v1 against a GWF, I will still have around 55% DR to start with not including Boar's Hide which may or may not have charges.

    Of course the theoretics are great, but the proof is in actual application. In actual application, it has worked out great for me. I have even gotten comments about how resilient my HR is from randoms and other not so randoms that are pretty good players. I have played games against some of the top pvp guilds in the game and never once did I feel I had gimped myself by not focusing on crit or by boosting my Defense to 2500.

    We are not talking about gimping, the stage we are at is margin trading. Getting a slightly better margin.

    And you are wrong about 1.25:1 with crit, it's not nearly so simple.
    To get an accurate measure you have to account for how crit affects your overall average dps and compare before to after, currently I make it that at 40% (could be 50, I don't remember which of the 2 I used when doing the calculations) - 5% additional crit will give 4.5% dps. Will get even lower after patch. And all that is with pvorp.

    Some people do naive math in this forum don't buy into that, you have to merge crit into overall dmg using elementary probability. You can find an example here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AkIzg0QxbGh_dHBlamlSdVAtWXFOYURERXZLdHZlYUE&output=html

    I don't want to feed the leechers here so if you want to get an accurate measure of things read up on probability and make your own spreadsheet to manipulate.

    Once you do that you will see things with crit aren't nearly so simple. But that only matters to those of us who reached an optimal setup and just want to trade margin defense for dps or vise versa.

    By rough estimate I made earlier it was a very good one. It's 6% per 1000 power @ ~4000 power with error margin of 10%.
  • kaylos29kaylos29 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    vvv459 wrote: »
    We are not talking about gimping, the stage we are at is margin trading. Getting a slightly better margin.

    And you are wrong about 1.25:1 with crit, it's not nearly so simple.
    To get an accurate measure you have to account for how crit affects your overall average dps and compare before to after, currently I make it that at 40% (could be 50, I don't remember which of the 2 I used when doing the calculations) - 5% additional crit will give 4.5% dps. Will get even lower after patch. And all that is with pvorp.

    Some people do naive math in this forum don't buy into that, you have to merge crit into overall dmg using elementary probability. You can find an example here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AkIzg0QxbGh_dHBlamlSdVAtWXFOYURERXZLdHZlYUE&output=html

    I don't want to feed the leechers here so if you want to get an accurate measure of things read up on probability and make your own spreadsheet to manipulate.

    Once you do that you will see things with crit aren't nearly so simple. But that only matters to those of us who reached an optimal setup and just want to trade margin defense for dps or vise versa.

    By rough estimate I made earlier it was a very good one. It's 6% per 1000 power @ ~4000 power with error margin of 10%.

    40% crit with perfect vorpal adds 50% more overall damage. It is pretty simple. 50% crit with perfect vorpal adds 62.5% more damage. The increase between 40 to 50% is 8.333%.

    I run about 37-38%, adding without any vorpal, adding only 27.75% to 28.5% more damage. I run perfect bronzewood because my perfect vorpal rests with my GWF and I am not paying for another. My weaker enchant actually gives me 48.19% to 49.06% more damage on my encounter rotations in pvp. I am good with that. Since P. Bronzewood does not rely on crit for effectiveness, it also allows me to focus on increasing my base damage for effectiveness.

    None of this takes into account diminishing returns, which when accounted for make anything past 1500 look really expensive. Without a vorpal at all like me, even 1900 can seem excessive when looked at from a strictly overall damage mathematical model.

    All in all, I don;t think we are disagreeing as much as we are arguing about. Anything past 3000 ArPen is excessive, because it rapidly goes from being cheap, to really expensive. Our only real disagreement seems to be the value of defense. Over damage reduction with the deflect stat is poor when you consider you already start with a lot and it diminihes nearly as fast as crit. Defense gets better the more you have of it and the flat DR additive bonuses to resistance like lonewolf and boar's hide, make it a pretty effective stat to use for HRs.

    I say you should try out 2500 defense sometime with lone wolf and boar's hide in games. Not everyone runs 40% resist ignore, so it works out very, very well, especially against CWs and TRs.
    Mindflayer - Exodus
    Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
    Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
    Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
  • vvv459vvv459 Member Posts: 161 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2014
    kaylos29 wrote: »
    40% crit with perfect vorpal adds 50% more overall damage. It is pretty simple. 50% crit with perfect vorpal adds 62.5% more damage. The increase between 40 to 50% is 8.333%.

    8.333 < 10*1.25 ... which was my point?

    Don't disagree with the rest.
  • linkingirl86linkingirl86 Member Posts: 77 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    hi Merlyn,

    I like a lot your guide, can i add it to mmominds.com???
  • jaotutjaotut Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    hi Merlyn,

    I like a lot your guide, can i add it to mmominds.com???

    yes of course you can
    Merlin - CW Merlyn - HR Psylocke - TR Black Widow - GWF


    Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
  • hemagenhemagen Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I invite you to try and 1v1 a proper combat HR with this build.
    I would be surprised if you could win 1 out of 100.

    The 10% deflect feat alone provides more tank that all nature feats combined including nature's blessing. And I have them both.

    A good attempt at a build but now every single top HR on the server are combat spec with combatant set for that reason.
  • jaotutjaotut Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I'm sorry I haven't updated this build since the introduction of tenacity. Sadly to say, Nature build is no longer viable due to healing depression halving our temp hp, which was the key to the build. I would also not suggest using this build for PvE either, the idea of being a support member is good, but doing more dps with archery build is more optimal. Tenacity and healing depression has killed this build.

    Since the big PvP patch, I have tried combat spec, and currently using archery spec. With the 2 different specs, you'll be using slightly different tactics against different classes. I feel that combat spec works the best for a 1v1 situation against another HR or GWF. While archery spec works the best with good teamwork and having point holders, so your objective is to provide high dps from 75% in range, and 25% melee.

    When I have some free time, I'll put up a build for both spec, but right now, I'm a bit busy with working on both my HR and GWF trying to get the profound gear and testing out different things.
    Merlin - CW Merlyn - HR Psylocke - TR Black Widow - GWF


    Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
  • tulium1tulium1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Hi Jaotut, I tried Nature as well and can confirm your findings.
    Neither for PvE nor PvP is it viable anymore, it's a pity.
    Currently I am using a Tanky Combat built for PvP. With the addition of tenacity this plays very nice (Was cool even before the patch with high deflect, def and reg).

    I am struggling with the suited weapon enchantments for this built type.
    Vorpal is not an option, as the focus is not on high crit ratings but in staying alive, moving fast and doing 75% meele damage.
    Therefore I think, as we have high AP anyway, adding debuffing enchants like PF or Terror schould do a good job.
    I am using a greater Terror right now (because the proc lasts longer) and am hesitating to upgrade it (for the AD costs).

    Any opinions out there to share in this matter?
    Could Bilethorn be an option in synergy with Fox?
  • jaotutjaotut Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    As far as I know the crit resistance from tenacity is not reducing your crit severity, but your damage whenever you crit.

    So let's take a look at some numbers (and correct me if I'm wrong with any of these calculations)

    Without using a vorpal
    Your normal hit: 1000
    75% crit severity, hit used to be: 1750

    With 20% tenacity that most people have, your crit hits for 1750 X 0.8 = 1400

    With perfect vorpal
    75+50% = 125% crit severity, hit used to be: 2250

    With the same tenacity, your crit hits for 2250 X 0.8 = 1800

    You're still hitting 80% harder, not over twice as much as it used to be, but still great, I'm still finding it to be the enchant to use for my HR.

    With Terror and Plaguefire, I haven't been able to find out if it works the same in PvP as it does in PvE. As far as I know, the tooltip is wrong. They act as a damage buffer, and not as a defense reduction. With 3 stacks of GPF, your hits is increased by 9%, and perfect terror is an increase of 4%.

    GPF is better if you can constantly hit your opponent to get the stacks as it doesn't last as long as terror. My GWF is using this as I can keep hitting someone without needing to back away. If you're planning to use aimshot quite often, then it's hard to maximise the use of either PF or Terror.

    Bilethorn is also a great enchant, but I think you'll have to get a lot of fast hits in to be comparable with damage other enchants can give. I haven't tried it out, and don't have the funds to make one to be my option. I've just finished making a perfect barkshield, and in the middle of making a greater elven battle, as well as gearing up my GWF a bit more. It's not as easy to make ad in this game as it used to be, so I'll just have to use what I've got.

    I also have a perfect feytouch which I haven't done much testings with yet. I think it's a great enchant for 1v1s, and really good for some classes. But for my HR that relies on crit to do more damage, vorpal still seems to be a great choice.
    Merlin - CW Merlyn - HR Psylocke - TR Black Widow - GWF


    Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
  • tulium1tulium1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Thanks for your thoughts.
    I am with you not having the AD amount needed to test 2-3 different weapon enchants, so I hope to get feedback from the community.
    With my built I am 75% of the time in close combat range, and I only have 33%ish crit ratings, as its a tanky built.
    I am not sure about your sayings about the "non existent" debuffing effects of neither PF nor Terror.
    If you are right, I would have to use some enchant which does the most absolut damage means:

    GPF = 7,5% base + 9% (if you can keep up the "debuffs") + 2,5% dot/3sec = 17,3 % /second
    PT = 12 % base + 4% = 16 % /second
    PB = 7,5 % base + 16 % /4 sec = 17,5 % /second
    (calculated 8 consecutive strikes / 8 second period; it gets better the more hits you can land over a certain time period))
    PL = 20 % base + the chains = 20% + X (I don't know how to calculate the chains)
    PV = 50% crit severity -20% tenacity = 80 % * crit chance (33%) = 26.4 %

    So PV still wins (assuming PF or Terror don't act as debuff), correct me if i am wrong.
  • tulium1tulium1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Now comparison if PF and Terror work as defense debuffs, meaning the damage increase results by bypassing enemys defense.
    The comparison becomes dependent on the target enemy players defense mitigation value.
    Additional damage reduction by
    10% / 25 / 35% means (above base values):
    PB = 15,75 % / 13,125 % / 11.375 second
    PL = 18 % / 15 % / 13 %
    PV = 23,76 / 19,8 % / 17,1 %

    So the higher the damage mitigation of the enemy player, the better becomes PF or Terror, overpassing Vorpal at some point.
    If you can keep up debuffs, GPF wins, if not, PT seems to be the reliable and safe alternative.

    Thoughts?
  • sanesjkasanesjka Member Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    *Points out the Emblem, Perfect Enchants on why your able to sit on a node*
  • jaotutjaotut Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Yeah tulium, if I have a chance to go up against a guildie, I'll stay behind and do some testings with my GPF and see what the numbers works out to be. After the patch with the latest CTA, I'm afraid they might have done some ninja patch with the ELO system, so the queue times are as bad as they used to be when they were introduced. Trying to queue up against someone you know isn't as easy again.

    I hope you're taking the feat in the combat tree that increases your crit by 10%. If you're base crit is 33%, then all your melee will crit 43% now, which is awesome. But for some, it comes down to choosing between this and 10% more deflect if they want to take a feat from archery + nature as well.
    Merlin - CW Merlyn - HR Psylocke - TR Black Widow - GWF


    Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
  • jaotutjaotut Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    sanesjka wrote: »
    *Points out the Emblem, Perfect Enchants on why your able to sit on a node*

    Nope, Emblem is quite bad for 1v1s against good players. What Emblem is good for is saving a teammate that's low on health if you're travelling between nodes and/or in a 2v2+ situations.

    Find me a perfect enchant that can help with being able to sit on a node.
    Merlin - CW Merlyn - HR Psylocke - TR Black Widow - GWF


    Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
  • blindnirvanablindnirvana Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 30 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Holding points longer does not mean clearing them. Combat will help clear fastest and be able to dodge and buff inbetween the dps skills. When fox shift bursts it bursts hard, just got to setup some sort of stun rotation to assure it hits.

    edit: upcoming fox shift nerf: if fox shift hits 2 times it might still be worth using. if fox shift just hits once and doesn't have high dmg I will be trying something different.
  • stah01stah01 Member Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Merlyn.. this build might be viable in Icewind Dale. PVE potions work during pvp, no healing depression since its an open pve zone. might be worth going to test and checking it out.
    GShBCGl.jpg
  • jaotutjaotut Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I think Icewind dale in mod 3 is going to be the most interesting chapter for our HRs yet. There's going to be new paragon as well, which will result in weeks of testings. I just hope with all the nerfs, comes a bunch of useful buffs in the new skills.
    Merlin - CW Merlyn - HR Psylocke - TR Black Widow - GWF


    Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
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