So I see a lot of post about people getting angry and asking to penalize people for leaving PvP. That doesn't seem hardly fair to a very large mass of people who leave/get kicked from PvP. There happens to be a lot of disconnecting, Hardware issues, and Real life problems that simply keep people from playing matches completely through.
I propose a handicap buff for the weakened team instead. I also propose the effectiveness of this buff increases the more players missing.
For example:
Each person = 100% stat ratings
1 person leaves(100%)/ 4 = 25% stat increase each person to the remaining 4 people
2 people leave(200%)/ 3 = 66.6% stat increase each person to the remaining 3 people
3 people leave(300%)/ 2 = 150% stat increase each person to the remaining 2 people
4 people leave(400%)/ 1 = 400% stat increase to the final and only person left on the team
Doing this will make the team fight as if they were as strong as a full 5 member team.
Even if there is only 1 person left on the team; he/she will be as strong as an entire team. (Somewhat like a boss fight)
Using this handicap system instead of a leaver penalty will allow innocent people, who didn't mean or were forced, to not be penalized for some failure or some emergency.
EDIT: Penalties will not fix PvP. They will instead persuade a lot of people to just sit idle in the spawn instead.
SECOND EDIT: As nwnghost said below it would be more difficult to cap points with less amount of bodies to be in a different place. The buff should also increased your cap speed by the same numbers(25%,66.6%,150%,400%). That way with less players you will still be able to capture and hold nodes.
Arc, proud officer of Novus Ordo
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I'd rather have something like this than a penalty for leaving because 99.9% of the time I leave is because Cryptic's faulty client. I try to log back in and it says, "You are no longer apart of the party. Leaving in 5 seconds..."
So if something like this isn't added. I for sure don't want to see a penalty for leaving.
Adding a penalty will start the era of extreme spawn sitting. It does not break the Terms and conditions for not participating in the match. People can't get banned for spawn sitting.
Arc, proud officer of Novus Ordo
New to the game? Check out my build guide to give you an idea on how to set up your characters!
I'm quite glad that somebody would propose this idea before I could. I have been thinking of similar buff mechanics but was hesitant to post it, or I'm simply unsure that others could agree. Anyway, to support your original proposal, I would give my own suggestions:
Buff (PvP): You fight more fiercely against unfair opposition. You and your comrades gain 25/50/75/100% stat ratings whilst being outnumbered in combat. This bonus only applies if you are in combat against one or more players.
Buff (PvP): When losing allies during battle, your determination does not waver. You take 20/40/60/80% less incoming damage from your enemies. This bonus only applies if you are in combat against one or more players.
Buff (PvP): Overrun by the enemy, you stand alone against your foes and, in your hero's honor, declare a mighty challenge to the death. No more than three enemies may engage you in this battle, their damage is reduced by 0/15/30%.
The numbers should be adjusted to reflect proper balance. I'm not too invested in the third buff, but just throwing random ideas for others to think on. The first proposition is more or less what he started with this thread already, except here I am leaving some breathing room for the players who actually want to play 1v1 after the match results are determined by early score gaps. For the sake of argument, I don't think a 400% stat boost at this point can be a picture of balance in a 1v5. That will favor the 1, similar to how 4 undergeared players would be fighting the Dracolich.
Instead I'd go with buff #2 out of my own ideas; You do normal damage to your opponents but the leavers handicap grants you damage resistance boost -- goes hand in hand with where they are currently going with Tenacity -- improving player survivability.
As far as winning nodes is concerned, yes the handicapped team is more likely to lose despite buffs. That is another story, and secondary to our biggest problems which I would summarize into two:
Quitters are pushing hardcore PvP players to call for a leaver's penalty, which may or may not result in camp idling or
unwarranted penalties in lieu of system malfunction, crashes and disconnects << Please stay technical when quoting this part of my post. From the standpoint of someone who knows networks and systems, I understand this is a tremendous problem that will take time to resolve. It might not get fixed in time before the leaver's penalty is forced upon innocent disconnected players.
A PvP match is simply not fun when you are one against all 5 enemies. It's not fun when you are trying to duel one person, and all of a sudden somebody else will ruin your game. It's not fun if I am forced to watch you spawn camp me. It's not fun when I am forced to spawn camp you for ten minutes because you don't want to play against a handicap either.
I'll quote myself from a post in a different thread, and hopefully we can make this thread a discussion of possibly viable non-penalty suggestions to PvP leavers.
I feel a pvp leaver's penalty might be necessary at some point, but rather than band-aid in fix that forces players to do something they don't want to, I'd rather see the reasons for people early quitting addressed. I.e. the most common reason I see is that the quitters are only in the match for glory. With the current reward system, if your team is being trashed by a large margin it is incredibly more effective to leave and instant reque for a match that might at least let you get _some_ glory, rather than the current 50 or even no glory for a pity flip that the game is currently giving out to losers.
Well Elo matchmaking should help people find more matches that are semi-evenly matched, often even on a hard fought neck to neck battle the losing team is almost wasting their time for the low glory reward. Likewise support classes (CCers, DCs, or anyone not racking up dps for kill scores) are often left at the bottom of the glory barrel. Especially DCs, who must by necessity hang back and have very little opportunity to even tag targets, let alone kill one or assist stomp, can end up with virtually no score even on a win. Well DCs could use another metric for generating PvP score all together, other classes, especially in steam-roll situations, need a way to end a match without having gained nothing from it.
I would suggest some sort score balancing for teams where the end-game score is greater than 2/3rds or even 3/4ths imbalanced, with greater rewards the more imbalanced the final score is. Some random ideas off the top of my head are:
Give a flat glory bonus.
Assign additional score at the end of the round based on imbalanced metrics, such as:
On severe imbalance (1/3 other teams score or less), give points just for dying.
Points for every fight that the player dropped below 30% health, but successfully left combat alive. (DCs and CWs could use this all the time )
Give points for total time even _attempting_ to take a control point.
Points for attacking the same target as an ally.
Point multiplier for how many times you died with three or more enemies attacking you. (DCs need this all of the time too )
Points for some amount of total damage dealt.
Points for going from 90% or more health to downed with 2 or less seconds of active character control (not time CCed).
Class specific points for performing a role typical to that class.
Also I'd like to see the que system prioritize filling games where players have left, even matches well in progress, and give the player whom takes the spot of a player that has left a flat 15-20% glory bonus, additive, not multiplicative.
At any rate, I think there are lots of ways to try the carrot before slamming the stick around.
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
I like this (for a laugh no more), I want to play the last-man GODMODE CW at least the times when all other leave lol.
Being serious now, this is not working since this PvP system needs people to cap/contest for wins. Once you're down to 2-3 men, you should almost always lose regardless of your skills.
how come no one has suggested a "no leaver" pvp option where you slap down 100k AD and if you leave the match, you forfeit your deposit? depending on your perception, it's a mid to high amount of change and it would place serious PvPers in a queue amongst themselves.
how come no one has suggested a "no leaver" pvp option where you slap down 100k AD and if you leave the match, you forfeit your deposit? depending on your perception, it's a mid to high amount of change and it would place serious PvPers in a queue amongst themselves.
But how would you differentiate between people who leave because of a game crash / internet disconnect vs. those who force quit the app? Even serious PvPers might not be willing to risk losing a great deal of AD if that AD can be lost by factors completely out of their control. Besides, with Elo matchmaking the serious PvPers will be matched with likewise, and the leaver issue only becomes an issue for casuals.
But how would you differentiate between people who leave because of a game crash / internet disconnect vs. those who force quit the app? Even serious PvPers might not be willing to risk losing a great deal of AD if that AD can be lost by factors completely out of their control. Besides, with Elo matchmaking the serious PvPers will be matched with likewise, and the leaver issue only becomes an issue for casuals.
With Elo Matchmaking alone will bring down the intentional leavers significantly because it will be more unlikely to fight parties that will completely destroy and demoralize the team. So, the majority of leavers will become mostly people who get kicked.
That being said there really isn't much of a need for a Leaver penalty. I still see the factor of people get disconnected because this will still be a big problem until they really fix client crashing.
Arc, proud officer of Novus Ordo
New to the game? Check out my build guide to give you an idea on how to set up your characters!
But how would you differentiate between people who leave because of a game crash / internet disconnect vs. those who force quit the app? Even serious PvPers might not be willing to risk losing a great deal of AD if that AD can be lost by factors completely out of their control. Besides, with Elo matchmaking the serious PvPers will be matched with likewise, and the leaver issue only becomes an issue for casuals.
ah yes. good point. so a leave penalty at all would be contingent on what is and isn't detectable by the software (eg. game crashes, disconnects, deliberate disconnects, task manager game exits, etc) including AFK detection or extended time spent in the spawn area.
That being said there really isn't much of a need for a Leaver penalty. I still see the factor of people get disconnected because this will still be a big problem until they really fix client crashing.
Honestly, even in a perfect world (pun intended) with a client that's crashproof, there's still the fact that some of us have HAMSTER Internet connections and will randomly get disconnected sometimes no matter what. Or someone's electricity will randomly go down for half a second, just long enough for the computer / router to shut off and turn back on. Or someone's cat will knock over a lamp at a bad time...the list goes on, but the point is that there are enough legit reasons for being forcibly kicked that it would be impossible to implement any kind of leaver-penalty fairly.
It's important to remember that the Elo matchmaking system is a self-correcting system, and at first it wouldn't have any data. Not until enough ratings can be collected to distinguish players, the benefit from this system won't be upfront. It can take days, or weeks or a couple of months even, before we can see any real difference. In the beginning, this 'Elo effect' is going to be negligible, I just don't want many of us to become too invested and eventually disappointed while the 'self-correction' happens.
On the brightside, Elo is definitely the way to go. Players who intentionally leave, often get disconnected, idle in bases or AFK or get system crashes will eventually become an isolated group of players. The same can be said for glory farmers and fresh level 60 players. My only concern is that, if a certain class is unbalanced in the OP sense, their class advantage will buffer the Elo rating they receive despite having connection/system difficulties. It's just a small loophole I see that can mess up the system. If, however, the Elo rating is not going to be one-dimensional (flat glory score), and instead multi-dimensional (glory scores, number of individual wins, losses, group wins and losses, premade queues, number of disconnects, number of times left party, relative gearscore, total number of battles played etc) I think that can address the problem.
Comments
With 2+ leavers, that team even with the buffs couldn't win due to being outcapped, but at least they could put up a fight and possibly hold 1 node.
The only issue I could see is that people might abuse a low geared player to get them to quit so the remaining high geared players get a boost.
In terms of stat boosting, I'm wondering whether the remaining players should get a fixed amount of tenacity per leaving player instead.
Very true but, than again there is only one person who can make the low geared player leave. That would be the low geared player him/herself.
In worse case scenerio, people can only trashtalk. That can easily be fixed by simply adding the person to your ignore list.
I also added what should be done about the capping part in my post.
So if something like this isn't added. I for sure don't want to see a penalty for leaving.
Adding a penalty will start the era of extreme spawn sitting. It does not break the Terms and conditions for not participating in the match. People can't get banned for spawn sitting.
Buff (PvP): When losing allies during battle, your determination does not waver. You take 20/40/60/80% less incoming damage from your enemies. This bonus only applies if you are in combat against one or more players.
Buff (PvP): Overrun by the enemy, you stand alone against your foes and, in your hero's honor, declare a mighty challenge to the death. No more than three enemies may engage you in this battle, their damage is reduced by 0/15/30%.
The numbers should be adjusted to reflect proper balance. I'm not too invested in the third buff, but just throwing random ideas for others to think on. The first proposition is more or less what he started with this thread already, except here I am leaving some breathing room for the players who actually want to play 1v1 after the match results are determined by early score gaps. For the sake of argument, I don't think a 400% stat boost at this point can be a picture of balance in a 1v5. That will favor the 1, similar to how 4 undergeared players would be fighting the Dracolich.
Instead I'd go with buff #2 out of my own ideas; You do normal damage to your opponents but the leavers handicap grants you damage resistance boost -- goes hand in hand with where they are currently going with Tenacity -- improving player survivability.
As far as winning nodes is concerned, yes the handicapped team is more likely to lose despite buffs. That is another story, and secondary to our biggest problems which I would summarize into two:
Quitters are pushing hardcore PvP players to call for a leaver's penalty, which may or may not result in camp idling or unwarranted penalties in lieu of system malfunction, crashes and disconnects << Please stay technical when quoting this part of my post. From the standpoint of someone who knows networks and systems, I understand this is a tremendous problem that will take time to resolve. It might not get fixed in time before the leaver's penalty is forced upon innocent disconnected players.
A PvP match is simply not fun when you are one against all 5 enemies. It's not fun when you are trying to duel one person, and all of a sudden somebody else will ruin your game. It's not fun if I am forced to watch you spawn camp me. It's not fun when I am forced to spawn camp you for ten minutes because you don't want to play against a handicap either.
And anyone else is welcome to post there suggestion(s) as well.
Being serious now, this is not working since this PvP system needs people to cap/contest for wins. Once you're down to 2-3 men, you should almost always lose regardless of your skills.
But how would you differentiate between people who leave because of a game crash / internet disconnect vs. those who force quit the app? Even serious PvPers might not be willing to risk losing a great deal of AD if that AD can be lost by factors completely out of their control. Besides, with Elo matchmaking the serious PvPers will be matched with likewise, and the leaver issue only becomes an issue for casuals.
With Elo Matchmaking alone will bring down the intentional leavers significantly because it will be more unlikely to fight parties that will completely destroy and demoralize the team. So, the majority of leavers will become mostly people who get kicked.
That being said there really isn't much of a need for a Leaver penalty. I still see the factor of people get disconnected because this will still be a big problem until they really fix client crashing.
ah yes. good point. so a leave penalty at all would be contingent on what is and isn't detectable by the software (eg. game crashes, disconnects, deliberate disconnects, task manager game exits, etc) including AFK detection or extended time spent in the spawn area.
interesting.
Honestly, even in a perfect world (pun intended) with a client that's crashproof, there's still the fact that some of us have HAMSTER Internet connections and will randomly get disconnected sometimes no matter what. Or someone's electricity will randomly go down for half a second, just long enough for the computer / router to shut off and turn back on. Or someone's cat will knock over a lamp at a bad time...the list goes on, but the point is that there are enough legit reasons for being forcibly kicked that it would be impossible to implement any kind of leaver-penalty fairly.
Kaylee Krankenwagen, level 60 GF | Tavandruil Wayfinder, level 49 GWF | Aldith Langley, level 51 HR
On the brightside, Elo is definitely the way to go. Players who intentionally leave, often get disconnected, idle in bases or AFK or get system crashes will eventually become an isolated group of players. The same can be said for glory farmers and fresh level 60 players. My only concern is that, if a certain class is unbalanced in the OP sense, their class advantage will buffer the Elo rating they receive despite having connection/system difficulties. It's just a small loophole I see that can mess up the system. If, however, the Elo rating is not going to be one-dimensional (flat glory score), and instead multi-dimensional (glory scores, number of individual wins, losses, group wins and losses, premade queues, number of disconnects, number of times left party, relative gearscore, total number of battles played etc) I think that can address the problem.