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Briartwine: The PermaRogue Counter
godlysoul1
Member Posts: 293 Bounty Hunter
INTRO:
I have heard a lot of complaining about perma-stealth or perma-immune rogues lately and wanted to help find a way to counter them. Personally, it is the build I play, and if others do not know how to counter your build, it is too easy. Therefore, I have found that using this enchant should be able to drain rogue's stealth and prevent them from getting into a permanent rotation of immunity or stealth. In the case that one of these rogues uses a non-vorpal weapon enchant against briartwine, (ex: the common bilethorn), it would be even more effective.
BASICS:
So I went ahead and bought a briartwine enchantment to test today. This enchant will proc a hit on your opponent from any damage taken. Every time you hit a rogue while it is stealthed, it is going to drain its stealth meter. One or two hits does not drain it very much, but multiple hits will significantly drain it. This is why people like to use damage over time enchants when fighting other rogues, and is especially why rouges in 1v1 situations with eachother, most definitely use bilethorn enchantment. Most perma based rogues use bilethorn enchantment all of the time anyway, because it has utility effects such as helping dismount faster or preventing others from mounting for a long time andn because most damage comes from at wills anyway. (For rogue, duelist fury will give very close to the same damage boost from weapon enchants when using a bilethorn or vorpal.)
HOW IT WORKS:
Duelist fury hits 8 times per "flurry" portion of the attack. This enchant will prevent any perma rogue from hitting you with duelist fury or cloud of steel from stealth and rolling away before you can counter them because it will proc against all of those hits (in addition to the bleed damage afterwards from DF).
(Note: If the rogues uses bilethorn, using cloud of steel from stealth would cause 8 hits from the attack itself, 8 procs from the posion damage, and a further 8 procs after 4 seconds from the hits. A similar effect would occur if they were to use duelist fury, or if they were to use any other damage over time weapon enchant (flaming, plaguefire). It could also proc from any non vorpal enchant just since the extra weapon damage provided by the enchant is considered a separate hit than the actual attack, but it would not be as extreme as damage over time enchants.)
Well, what if they decide not to attack you while stealthed then? Either way, rogues will use duelist fury on you before they go back into stealth. This is where the majority of their damage comes from. This will cause 5-7 of the 7 bleeds duelist fury will hit for after the "flurry" portion of the attack ends.
The real fun is when they are using bilethorn. From my experiences today, briartwine will proc from each weapon enchant hits. Bilethron enchantment causes 2 procs, one which occurs as the attack happens, and another with occrs 4 seconds after the hit takes place. This procs for every hit, and can stack as many times as possible. Therefore, this means if a rogue were to hit you with duelist fury using bilethorn and then go back into stealth, he will get hit for 8 times from the extra bilethorn damage, and 5-7 times from the bleed damage.
CONCLUSION:
Ultimately using briartwine will cause any rogue that DFs you then returns to stealth 5-7 procs of damage when they do not attack with bilethorn, and 13-15 procs of damage with bilethorn. If you ever do a stealth rogue vs stealth rogue 1v1 using bilethorn, you know if you try to go stealthed right after your opponent uses duelist fury, those extra 8 hits of bilethorn will drain most of your stealth, even through tenacious concealment. This enchant will provide a similar, but perhaps very slightly mitigated effect when using briartwine on rogues that do not use bilethorn (due to # of hits), and almost 2x the effect on rogues that do use it. This is without considering that one could also use bilethorn, plaguefire, ect. themselves, to add even more additional hits which would bring these characters out of stealth.
TESTING:
I was able to test so far that briar will proc under any damage from weapon enchant or normal damage. Despite the fact that weapon enchants do not proc from duelist fury bleeds, briartwine does proc off of them. Therefore, all numbers given relating to number of procs from briartwine should be accurate.
NOTE:
***Unfortunately I was on a lot today but haven't been able to test it 1v1 against other stealth rogues. I have been waiting for a good perma based rogue to come on that will do a few 1v1s to test how effective it is with draining stealth, but I will be sure to make a post once I have about how it worked in practice.***
This being said, there is no reason to believe this enchant wouldn't work as a fantastic counter to perma rogues considering that stealth is drained based on number of hits taken, but I will make sure to get find some good perma-immune vs perma-immune 1v1s to test it out to be 100% certain.
I have heard a lot of complaining about perma-stealth or perma-immune rogues lately and wanted to help find a way to counter them. Personally, it is the build I play, and if others do not know how to counter your build, it is too easy. Therefore, I have found that using this enchant should be able to drain rogue's stealth and prevent them from getting into a permanent rotation of immunity or stealth. In the case that one of these rogues uses a non-vorpal weapon enchant against briartwine, (ex: the common bilethorn), it would be even more effective.
BASICS:
So I went ahead and bought a briartwine enchantment to test today. This enchant will proc a hit on your opponent from any damage taken. Every time you hit a rogue while it is stealthed, it is going to drain its stealth meter. One or two hits does not drain it very much, but multiple hits will significantly drain it. This is why people like to use damage over time enchants when fighting other rogues, and is especially why rouges in 1v1 situations with eachother, most definitely use bilethorn enchantment. Most perma based rogues use bilethorn enchantment all of the time anyway, because it has utility effects such as helping dismount faster or preventing others from mounting for a long time andn because most damage comes from at wills anyway. (For rogue, duelist fury will give very close to the same damage boost from weapon enchants when using a bilethorn or vorpal.)
HOW IT WORKS:
Duelist fury hits 8 times per "flurry" portion of the attack. This enchant will prevent any perma rogue from hitting you with duelist fury or cloud of steel from stealth and rolling away before you can counter them because it will proc against all of those hits (in addition to the bleed damage afterwards from DF).
(Note: If the rogues uses bilethorn, using cloud of steel from stealth would cause 8 hits from the attack itself, 8 procs from the posion damage, and a further 8 procs after 4 seconds from the hits. A similar effect would occur if they were to use duelist fury, or if they were to use any other damage over time weapon enchant (flaming, plaguefire). It could also proc from any non vorpal enchant just since the extra weapon damage provided by the enchant is considered a separate hit than the actual attack, but it would not be as extreme as damage over time enchants.)
Well, what if they decide not to attack you while stealthed then? Either way, rogues will use duelist fury on you before they go back into stealth. This is where the majority of their damage comes from. This will cause 5-7 of the 7 bleeds duelist fury will hit for after the "flurry" portion of the attack ends.
The real fun is when they are using bilethorn. From my experiences today, briartwine will proc from each weapon enchant hits. Bilethron enchantment causes 2 procs, one which occurs as the attack happens, and another with occrs 4 seconds after the hit takes place. This procs for every hit, and can stack as many times as possible. Therefore, this means if a rogue were to hit you with duelist fury using bilethorn and then go back into stealth, he will get hit for 8 times from the extra bilethorn damage, and 5-7 times from the bleed damage.
CONCLUSION:
Ultimately using briartwine will cause any rogue that DFs you then returns to stealth 5-7 procs of damage when they do not attack with bilethorn, and 13-15 procs of damage with bilethorn. If you ever do a stealth rogue vs stealth rogue 1v1 using bilethorn, you know if you try to go stealthed right after your opponent uses duelist fury, those extra 8 hits of bilethorn will drain most of your stealth, even through tenacious concealment. This enchant will provide a similar, but perhaps very slightly mitigated effect when using briartwine on rogues that do not use bilethorn (due to # of hits), and almost 2x the effect on rogues that do use it. This is without considering that one could also use bilethorn, plaguefire, ect. themselves, to add even more additional hits which would bring these characters out of stealth.
TESTING:
I was able to test so far that briar will proc under any damage from weapon enchant or normal damage. Despite the fact that weapon enchants do not proc from duelist fury bleeds, briartwine does proc off of them. Therefore, all numbers given relating to number of procs from briartwine should be accurate.
NOTE:
***Unfortunately I was on a lot today but haven't been able to test it 1v1 against other stealth rogues. I have been waiting for a good perma based rogue to come on that will do a few 1v1s to test how effective it is with draining stealth, but I will be sure to make a post once I have about how it worked in practice.***
This being said, there is no reason to believe this enchant wouldn't work as a fantastic counter to perma rogues considering that stealth is drained based on number of hits taken, but I will make sure to get find some good perma-immune vs perma-immune 1v1s to test it out to be 100% certain.
Post edited by godlysoul1 on
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Comments
Supremacy of Steel (a GF daily) was a bit better, as you could see the swords from the power hitting the TR, and it did more damage, but since it was a daily it had limited usefulness, and also didn't tend to knock them out of stealth.
Welp, guess this was pointless then :P It doesn't make sense conceptually why it wouldn't work though, especially when it appears that number of hits is all that determines how much stealth is drained.
This children, is why you don't post without testing :P
Did you test it against DoT users, namely Bilethorn TRs many of whom are high level and a relatively recent development (since mid/late autumn 2013)? The new incoming pvp changes may also increase the use of DoT enhancements.
Also, what may work not work as well for GF's who may not want to take any hits at all (therefore needing a "burstier" counter) may work better in a sustained "facetanking" fight like GWF vs TR.
Never tested it vs. Bilethorn. In my tests it was underwhelming and the damage is so tiny - you'd be doing like 8 points of damage per Bilethorn tick, and that's not taking into account damage resistance, deflection, etc. Overall I'd suggest waiting until the new PvP changes go live before doing any real tests.
Good luck burning their stealth with a 4% reflected damage :P
I've never tested it but the dmg could be boosted enought to drain a bit more stealth.
Anyway it's just depressing that you have to invent such mechanics just to try to counter a single class.
On receiving a critical strike 30% chance to deal Lightning damage and stun nearby foes once every 60 seconds. Damage is Level based.
There is NOTHING more satisfying than watching a perma TR trying to hit me get electrocuted as if it were running into a bug zapper. Thunderhead > Briartwine any day.
This.. actually might be worth a look.
Since usually permas rely on lengthy repetition of fluff damage, most usually from CoS and all the bilethorn ticks it adds... by just roughly imagining the situation in my head, I'd say 30% is actually a pretty good chance to proc considering the number of attacks a perma deals on you. If only it wasn't 60 seconds.. even 30 would have had this more useful against TRs..
Just how long is this stun?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Would 4 seconds of 30% recharge delay do any kind of damage against their power rotations?
Or, would a fireball hurled every minute do enough burn DoTs to mess up stealth?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Thunderhead Vs TR - Several times on my GF/GWF's I have been struck by TR's coming out of stealth using lashing blades or death strike. When they crit on me, the enchant activates: Looking like several chains coming from a lightening enchantment, the TR stops the attack and looks hazed for approximately 2 seconds (perceived, but not tested as fact). TR's using Bilehorn in stealth are also often forced out of stealth when it procs and crits its poison damage (assuming they are still in range of the enchantment which seems roughly equal to the radius of Astral Shield) and while I have not had it happen to me from their daggers while stealthed, I would be willing to bet it might work there too.
NOTE: It's an aggro beast in PvE and when activated will ensure everything in its range comes at YOU for a brief period.
Frost Enchantment Vs. All - I run frost because no one else does and it also goes with my Hrimnir look on my GWF. Frost does the same thing as Frostburn Enchantment, but works at-will obviously. I find that while its DPS sucks @ +9.6%, the fact that everyone I initially hit is forced to have 25% less recovery for 4 seconds, which can easily amount to 1.5 seconds more time to get another encounter primed, it offers enough burst damage to finish them off before they can prime another encounter. Note that this works in PUGS well as most will use all 3 encounters immediately, but premades or anyone who knows what they are doing will be less affected by this.
Referencing TR's specifically, it can hinder their stealth meter recovery for 4 seconds, but will NOT prevent them or bring them out of stealth.
NOTE: Fireburst's fireball will NOT force TR's out of stealth. Tested it... Much like Frontline surge or others, you will see them get hit by it "briefly", but they remain stealthed.
Before there was no way you could tell if a target is stunned or not.
Since its fixed i might consider getting my perfect back.
Also there is some serious issues with this Frost and Frostburn enchnants... I really don't find any way you can use this in PvE or PvP....Most classes do not stack Recovery ..and even if they do, having a chance to reduce 1/4 of they recovery for 4 seconds is same like having no enchants on your weapon. I mean compared to the other weapon enchants this just seems the absolute NO to get.
Cheers to kolbe for the open-mind and testin out new things
It also depends on the graphics settings you have set. Running low MSAA x 2 and "lowered" settings for lighting/shadowing it will remain rather dull and hard to tell when it procs. However, running full-bore graphics I can very noticeably see the lightening-bolts emanating from my toon's armor and I must say, it is worth the giggle every time it procs.
As for Frost, yeah, it sucks. I find it valuable Vs CW's in PVP mostly. For PvE, Frost is visually noticeable on bosses specifically as they appear confused and slow to respond when affected by it. I will concede that just about any enchantment is better though... it's just that the "frosty" animation is fun.
Thanks for the vital information..
Perhaps I should save up to experiment a combination of BOTH Frost and Frostburn... hmm..
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If you wanna borrow a normal frost weapon enchant, look me up in game. They're pretty cheap on AH though (when you can find them that is).