Just tested cleric healing on the PTR and things look pretty bad. Currently regeneration completely out-heals all cleric heals significantly. There's something definitely wrong with a 'healing' class being out-healed by a stat on someone's gear. Check out these ACT screenshots:
1v1 against a hunter ranger:
1v1 against a CW:
1v1 against a TR:
Notice in the first two 1v1s about 45% of my total healing on myself was from regeneration. My healing word was healing for ~310 every 3 seconds whereas my regeneration was healing for a maximum of 1778 every 3 seconds. In the 1v1 against the CW i received 116k healing from regeneration and 128k from ALL of my other heals combined. There's something significantly wrong with this picture. A dedicated 'healing' class that has virtually non-existent assist-damage and absolutely no crowd control is being out-healed by a stat on people's gear. Even if regeneration was reduced in half it would still be healing for more than the cleric class can with the new 50% healing debuff in PvP.
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rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
edited January 2014
I've stopped playing PvP even for the dailies awhile ago now and nothing in these patch notes makes me want to venture forth back into PvP. If anything it's the opposite. Unless the devs add a separate gear set slot having to carry around PvP gear constrains my already overfull bag/bank slots even more.
So thanks for trying to fix things but if this is what goes forward I'll just continue to ignore PvP and hope it doesn't lead to too many nerfs to classes that impact PvE.
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jksgsakfsodshgMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I was really hoping that the new changes would get me back into PvP too but from what I have seen it looks pretty bad , I tried to queue on test earlier but no pvp queue popped so I will have to try again on my day off from work during peak hours for the US so I can try it out myself but I'm already dreading the results.All I can say so far is please don't force rush this out onto live in anything like it's current state lol , this game has so much potential but it is just being squandered.
Again, I realize there are folks that only do PVP, but they are an extreme minority.
This here is the dilemma. I've been in five guilds (over half a dozen characters, mind you) where the majority of play was spent either in dungeon delves, or pvping in between. Its not often I meet the same opponent twice in a week, even PUG on PUG. Between GG and Arena, there is a large assortment of names.
So I would place my personal experience against your belief. My personal experience is that players grind gear in dungeons ... to pvp in better gear. They buy up stacks of enchants ... to get better enchants for pvp.
PvP isn't EVERYBODIES game, for sure. But I doubt they are the minority you mention.
I mean, why would any player need rank 10 enchants or full t2 gear sets to run dungeons? T1 gear and rank 7's will support almost every class (except maybe GF's) in almost every dungeon. NPC's just don't offer that kind of power requirement.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
I'm thrilled about the GF changes, but I'm not sure about the PvP changes. I don't PvP, but my DC enjoys her PvP gear because it makes sense for a mostly-solo DC the way I play her. It's annoying to have its core stats nerfed to add an additional stat that she'll never need because she stays out of PvP. Limiting the buffs to PvP armor also takes out the fun of exploring different builds and gear sets, like others have said. A lot of people just PvP, a lot of people just PvE, but the majority do both -- it makes sense for their gears to be viable in both settings if they want to try it out in both.
I have a few toons with GG pvp sets too. I don't like to pvp, and the only reason I do GG pvp is to get the T2 gear for PVE. Whatever changes they are planning to make to PVP, there is a sufficiently vocal PVP community on the forum to give the Devs feedback. But players who mainly/purely PVE might not be vocal enough to get the attention of the Devs. My feedback to the Devs is, don't make changes in PVP that affects PVE too much, if that is possible. Any negative changes to PVE due to changes in PVP will definitely upset and drive away PVE players, even if no one voice out their displeasure on he forum.
Anything that impacts PVE (like changing gear stats) is foolish and will make people quit. There is a way to fix some issues without turning off elements of the player base, but it seems like every time these adjustments come out, they cause a chunk of people to quit to please a small minority. How a game with the Neverwinter label is struggling to make it big time, or even retain players, is indicative of some poor decisions in design and production. There is a hardcore base of D&D players and this is like, the only decent D&D game out. PVP is very non-dungeons and dragons and those players will eventually quit anyways leaving the rest of us to deal with their class balances and such.
I'm going to make a thread about this, but I kind of don't want to start it until I've had a chance to compare stats for myself. Suffice to say there are PvE implications and I've got a few thoughts about that.
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rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
edited January 2014
Oh I also forgot to mention: Nerfing DCs? Seriously? You really need to be buffing them in PvP (and PvE while you're at it). I'm really not sure of the logic on that decision.
Man, if you guys are trying to drive out the Hardcore PvP base, then continue on...
I don't understand why, after all the posts and wonderful ideas that have been shared, you decide to go in the opposite direction.
None of this makes sense.. soo disappointed in you guys
This coming from a GF who is getting "buffed"
I know right? Out of all the good ideas put forth. THIS is thier solution? A solution that amplfies problems ten fold than they already are? I just cannot fathom it. The one thing I liked about pvp in this game is it lacked the required "resilience" stat other games have for pvp. You an pvp and pve with any assortment of gear as long as it matches the playstyle that best suits it.
Just this tenacity HAMSTER alone just wrecks that. And thats just talking about that specific aspect.
What was so hard about making gearscore ranked matchmaking. That would have been muuuuuch better than this.
This here is the dilemma. I've been in five guilds (over half a dozen characters, mind you) where the majority of play was spent either in dungeon delves, or pvping in between. Its not often I meet the same opponent twice in a week, even PUG on PUG. Between GG and Arena, there is a large assortment of names.
So I would place my personal experience against your belief. My personal experience is that players grind gear in dungeons ... to pvp in better gear. They buy up stacks of enchants ... to get better enchants for pvp.
PvP isn't EVERYBODIES game, for sure. But I doubt they are the minority you mention.
I mean, why would any player need rank 10 enchants or full t2 gear sets to run dungeons? T1 gear and rank 7's will support almost every class (except maybe GF's) in almost every dungeon. NPC's just don't offer that kind of power requirement.
yes. Its actually aloooot of people that pvp. I pvp quite often through multiple characters since april. And out of all the matches, I estimate only less than 5% of the people I encounter is people I've encountered before.
Whoever said people that pvp is a minority is just speaking madness. They are the people who invest the heaviest in gear and as you said, that is the reason people devote such high rank enchants for thier gear. Dungeons do not require such a heavy investment like that.
Just as Lobo said, pvp isnt everybodies game. thats fine. But that doesnt mean just because someone doesnt like pvp, its there for a minority. That couldnt be further from the truth.
Overall. As its been said, all these changes will do is funnel people into cookie cutter builds now. Just looking at these changes, makes me lose all desire to pvp.
Honestly, I'd like some form of knockdown resistance stat in this game. For BOTH PvP and PvE. I can't tell you how annoying it is to be knocked down by some Fomorian Warlord or such.
And since I pretty much keep 'Takedown' on my power list for both my destroyer and sentinel GWF, I know it's use in PvP. To play without it is to intentionally weaken yourself.
If there was a definable stat and enchant that I could put into place to give me more resistance? I'm all for it! Not an 'immunity', per se, but at least something like a 25% chance (if I fully fit for it) that the prone effect won't apply. Damage, sure. But not the additional CC prone.
My point, though, is this doesn't need to be a 'PvP only' change.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Honestly, I'd like some form of knockdown resistance stat in this game. For BOTH PvP and PvE. I can't tell you how annoying it is to be knocked down by some Fomorian Warlord or such.
And since I pretty much keep 'Takedown' on my power list for both my destroyer and sentinel GWF, I know it's use in PvP. To play without it is to intentionally weaken yourself.
If there was a definable stat and enchant that I could put into place to give me more resistance? I'm all for it! Not an 'immunity', per se, but at least something like a 25% chance (if I fully fit for it) that the prone effect won't apply. Damage, sure. But not the additional CC prone.
My point, though, is this doesn't need to be a 'PvP only' change.
No man, there are several classes in the game right now that can't be killed without a perfect prone chain. More survivability in PvP is not whats needed.
No man, there are several classes in the game right now that can't be killed without a perfect prone chain. More survivability in PvP is not whats needed.
If you check earlier, I'm not just pushing for a change to the prone mechanic. I also believe lifesteal and regen should be updated. But just because GWF is rather unbalanced, or because TR stealth and damage immunity options are too easy to follow one on top of the other, doesn't mean that ANYBODY should be able to be prone-chained. That's a bad mechanic to fix other bad mechanics.
Or as they say in asia, two Wong's don't make a white.
No, being able to fit your gear for standing up to these attacks? That's a tradeoff. That's a build option. That's potential flavor.
I would agree, though, if you might oppose the best defense/deflect gear also being the best prone-defense gear, though. That wouldn't be good planing.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
Here's the crazy thing...
The PVP community has communicated dozens upon dozens of times a few simple things we want:
1) More maps and modes.
2) Better GS matching or PMvsPM matching.
3) More effective way to deal with "leavers."
I know others have put forth other suggestions, but I frequent the forums a lot, and have seen these requests over and over again. The changes are so simple and so easy, I'm astonished Cryptic hasn't implemented them. And instead of listening to their player base, they give us this: Nerfing the one class that has no need to be nerfed, buffing a class that is already pretty well-balanced, and creating a PVP stat to complicated matters more.
*shakes head* What is wrong, Cryptic? That you so easily dismiss the reasonable requests of your player base?
The PVP community has communicated dozens upon dozens of times a few simple things we want:
1) More maps and modes.
2) Better GS matching or PMvsPM matching.
3) More effective way to deal with "leavers."
I know others have put forth other suggestions, but I frequent the forums a lot, and have seen these requests over and over again. The changes are so simple and so easy, I'm astonished Cryptic hasn't implemented them. And instead of listening to their player base, they give us this: Nerfing the one class that has no need to be nerfed, buffing a class that is already pretty well-balanced, and creating a PVP stat to complicated matters more.
*shakes head* What is wrong, Cryptic? That you so easily dismiss the reasonable requests of your player base?
So thankful I'm 100% F2P, Trace
Honestly, I could handle the current balance, if these three points were met in some shape, form or fashion.
Please, Cryptic: don't waste a whole module on this. These are simple additions, not requiring the loss of six months worth of content.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Pvp could easily be fixed with a few easy steps. At the moment there are only 2 real viable builds. Either a burst build that almost one shots everything, or an extremely defensive build that takes forever to kill unless you get a few lucky crits. The last problem is that DC are really not needed for the healing.
Stopping the one shots by people would be pretty easy. Just reduce the damage taken by 20% in pvp settings.
To fix the unkillable builds, reduce the healing of regeneration and life steal by 33%. Even with the 20% reduction of damage from players, the unkillable builds would still die faster. By only reducing the healing of regeneration and life having a DC in the group would once again be useful.
The PVP community has communicated dozens upon dozens of times a few simple things we want:
1) More maps and modes.
2) Better GS matching or PMvsPM matching.
3) More effective way to deal with "leavers."
I know others have put forth other suggestions, but I frequent the forums a lot, and have seen these requests over and over again. The changes are so simple and so easy, I'm astonished Cryptic hasn't implemented them. And instead of listening to their player base, they give us this: Nerfing the one class that has no need to be nerfed, buffing a class that is already pretty well-balanced, and creating a PVP stat to complicated matters more.
*shakes head* What is wrong, Cryptic? That you so easily dismiss the reasonable requests of your player base?
So thankful I'm 100% F2P, Trace
^This just this!
But anyway, when this Tenecity nonsense goes live, there wont be any use for a PMvsPM queue cuz no one of the actual pvp players will play this game anymore and will move on, incuding me.
And to be honest my patience is close to the end, we NEVER get any feedback, doesnt matter if it's nerfs, classbalance or pvp. They just always open a ''Feedback thread'', dont care about it and just do whatever they want.
If they would actually listen to use, we would have more pvp maps already and a queue system or a some kind of foundry thingy to make our own pvp maps.
But ye in the end we get Tenecity nonsense with terrible calculated numbers, therefore destroyed build flexibilities and a healing class that heals for less than a ''regen stat'' on gear!
It doesnt require rocket science knowledge to see that this stuff isnt going to work and no one even asked for it!
But ye in the end it will just be again suck it or leave it but this time lots of ppl will pick the leave option.
If they rly wanna bring Tenecity, bring it as an enchant for glory! But ffs dont force us to use ->1<- gear set, doesnt matter how bad the stats are, the tenecity always wins...
our data shows that many players are not engaging in the current system due to the frustration of using it. If the system was performing well and making everyone happy, we would not have invested all of the time and effort into improving it that we have
I agree with the previous posters: This is an overkill where minor tweaking could have already made a noticeable difference. And like I said in another thread: Sometime it might be better to start small and let the system grow over time.
I really don't see the need of forcing player to run PVP set and all the added change to prolong fighting time.
It is kind of like the older days WOW where player can not be killed unless heavily focused, and in neverwinter we only have 5 v 5 if you exclude GG as PVP. I have not run premade under these changes but I assume the whole PVP in this mode is gonna be highly relied on utility skill from each class in order to gain more points and win the game. Which only make every PVP match insanely long and most of the time boring.
The GF buff seem absolutely needed and well deserved. But anything else just seem like another lazy and clueless move done by Cryptic. Just as What they did at Mod 2: destroy GF by simply sharing path between GWF and GF without any further tweak to these 2 classes.
And if this is the so called PVP changes in the upcoming Mod 3 I gonna be really sad. Hell I would just buy myself a diamond elo LOL account and go play that at least it is fun and comparably much more balanced. And with ESO and Everquest coming out NWN is gonna die out if the Dev doesn't do something awesome to win the player base.
I don't know. This all painfully reminds me of this quote:
Quote Originally Posted by amenar View Post
our data shows that many players are not engaging in the current system due to the frustration of using it. If the system was performing well and making everyone happy, we would not have invested all of the time and effort into improving it that we have
I agree with the previous posters: This is an overkill where minor tweaking could have already made a noticeable difference. And like I said in another thread: Sometime it might be better to start small and let the system grow over time.
That is precisely what I've pretty much gotten from this as well.
It just gets so frustrating when they make sweeping unnessecary changes like this, where they could have done some very simple things that was laid out right on the table for them, for mooonths.
Just as the others said. for moooonths pvpers been telling what they want and its not something that requires sweeping changes through anything. Just small adjustments.
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dr132Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 21Arc User
The PVP community has communicated dozens upon dozens of times a few simple things we want:
1) More maps and modes.
2) Better GS matching or PMvsPM matching.
3) More effective way to deal with "leavers."
I know others have put forth other suggestions, but I frequent the forums a lot, and have seen these requests over and over again. The changes are so simple and so easy, I'm astonished Cryptic hasn't implemented them. And instead of listening to their player base, they give us this: Nerfing the one class that has no need to be nerfed, buffing a class that is already pretty well-balanced, and creating a PVP stat to complicated matters more.
*shakes head* What is wrong, Cryptic? That you so easily dismiss the reasonable requests of your player base?
So thankful I'm 100% F2P, Trace
Agreed 100% Trace. The balance issues people have in PvP's aren't class imbalance issues they're gear issues. I've watched highly skilled BiS players of different classes 1v1 numerous times and I must say, they're pretty well balanced across the board when played correctly, excluding people who use broken encounters/dailies. In proper premade vs premade matches with rainbow team compositions and skilled players you'll find that nothing is OP or impossible to counter in some way and the match becomes about proper teamwork, communication and having the right characters in the right place, which is as it should be in a POINT domination. It takes minimal thought capacity to realize that someone with T1 purple or blue gear, no weapon or armor enchants and ranks 5's max won't stand a chance against someone who's fully end game geared. Even as small of a change as having two brackets for pvp would alleviate the majority of problems people are having and the distinction could be as simple as having an Open PvP bracket in which any level 60 can queue with or without teammates exactly like it is now and a Limited bracket in which you are disqualified from queuing once your character has predominantly purple level enchantments and anything greater than a lesser weapon or armor enchantment. Also I would propose that people could only solo queue for the limited bracket to eliminate the premade issue as well as add in a mechanic that would not allow gear to be equipped with an illegal enchantment just like what prohibits usage of regular healing potions. I would caution against gear score bracket divisions as there have been very strong PvP builds in this game that carry low gear scores, not to mention the gear score diversity between equivalently geared characters of different classes.
I feel that the proposed changes would be a major step backwards and would do nothing except alienate the player base that has spent countless hours refining and testing their builds to be what they are now. It would be a huge slap in the face to nerf them after all that and buff everyone else who just picked up the basic PvP gear. The only thing PvP in this game has going for it honestly is the free will to build your character how you want to and reach the power levels that are currently possible. If we wanted to play a cookie cutter PvP arena game with very limited character improvement options there are numerous games out there to choose from that already have plenty of variety as far as game modes and map selection, why would anybody stick around here if it's going to move further in that direction yet offer the same two maps and single game mode? PvP in neverwinter has such potential to be amazing, the character classes are great and the combat actually takes skill to be better than your opponent and disregarding exploitable powers that need to be addressed I can only see minor tweaks being necessary to fix any balance issues that may exist. For example, if HP regeneration can be stacked to OP levels then lower it's effectiveness to some degree, don't hamstring the only healing class the game has with an across the board healing nerf. A strong healer should make his/her teammates extremely hard or impossible to kill when he/she is around, that's what their job is, so why take that away from them? Please listen to the constructive feedback from your players who actually care about PvP in this game while they are still here. /walloftext
The balance issues people have in PvP's aren't class imbalance issues they're gear issues. I've watched highly skilled BiS players of different classes 1v1 numerous times and I must say, they're pretty well balanced across the board when played correctly, excluding people who use broken encounters/dailies. In proper premade vs premade matches with rainbow team compositions and skilled players you'll find that nothing is OP or impossible to counter in some way and the match becomes about proper teamwork, communication and having the right characters in the right place, which is as it should be in a POINT domination. It takes minimal thought capacity to realize that someone with T1 purple or blue gear, no weapon or armor enchants and ranks 5's max won't stand a chance against someone who's fully end game geared.
Exactly. As someone who premades competitively, you quickly realize that every class can be countered through appropriate communication and effective rotations of players. GWFs may need some tweaking, as they are currently both outstanding tanks and DPS classes. However, many of the blanket-wide suggested changes make little sense. From what I've seen on the test shard, these changes will make PvP for high end payers more boring (with DPS output and build flexibility significantly curtailed) and essentially crushes the DC.
If the goal is to prevent PUGs from getting one/two-shot by geared players, then create a separate queue or a matchmaking system. This would be more fun for all players, rather than destroying the flexibility and dynamic nature of PvP. In addition, simply nerf regen by 30-50% if you don't want fights lasting as long.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
Agreed 100% Trace. The balance issues people have in PvP's aren't class imbalance issues they're gear issues. I've watched highly skilled BiS players of different classes 1v1 numerous times and I must say, they're pretty well balanced across the board when played correctly, excluding people who use broken encounters/dailies. In proper premade vs premade matches with rainbow team compositions and skilled players you'll find that nothing is OP or impossible to counter in some way and the match becomes about proper teamwork, communication and having the right characters in the right place, which is as it should be in a POINT domination. It takes minimal thought capacity to realize that someone with T1 purple or blue gear, no weapon or armor enchants and ranks 5's max won't stand a chance against someone who's fully end game geared.
Exactly. As someone who premades competitively, you quickly realize that every class can be countered through appropriate communication and effective rotations of players. GWFs may need some tweaking, as they are currently both outstanding tanks and DPS classes. However, many of the blanket-wide suggested changes make little sense. From what I've seen on the test shard, these changes will make PvP for high end payers more boring (with DPS output and build flexibility significantly curtailed) and essentially crushes the DC.
If the goal is to prevent PUGs from getting one/two-shot by geared players, then create a separate queue or a matchmaking system.
A matchmaking system is really the only solution. However I submit that it should ignore GS entirely and be based solely on performance, as GS is already a terrible calculation of gear anyways, including feats, boons, companions, etc.
I can't disagree with anything said here, although I can admit I haven't played a cleric in PvP, but the changes look quite devastating for them.
All that aside, I don't mind the implementation of Tenacity, if for nothing else than to give more people a reason to PvP: for Tenacity gear. With only 2 Tenacity sets tho, it's going to make PvP very boring very quickly seeing every class run around in the same gear as each other.
Which brings us back to the original point: more than we need Tenacity, we need more incentives (glory buyables), more maps, more modes, and MATCHMAKING.
Which brings us back to the original point: more than we need Tenacity, we need more incentives (glory buyables), more maps, more modes, and MATCHMAKING.
Yes. Yes please. This is what the PvP community has been asking for this entire time. I also agree that GS isn't a great measure for matchmaking; as a PvP DC, a good deal of my equipment is blue. Matchmaking should probably be based on some equation that takes into account a person's death and kill/assist ratio adjusted for their class.
gearscore match making probably isnt the most ideal. But its a start, I'd take that anyday and if its easier to implement. I have no problem with it. I'd much much rather take that over anything else at the moment.
They should just add pvp ranks from f class to s class based on win loss ratio and point distribution , where win certain amount against a certain rank and gain certain amount of points,Lose a certain amount and drop rank, ranks should fight 1-2 ranks below/above you, or closest one avalible in queue.
This will take in effect skill,GS and to some extent certain spec that can only take you so far, due to the ineffectiveness of said build.
For leavers just give them a timed debuff that lengthens per leave or temp ban pvp for 15 mins per leave.
As for the tenacity thing..... 5 5wfs/GFS vs 5 Gwfs/gfs, the top teams go at it.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
edited January 2014
So does that mean there's no hit cap for the cone effect on the lunging strike !?
^Same, I've been wondering about the same thing. I'm hoping there's no target cap and that the effects of Powerful Strike from Tactician transfers even to the targets outside the main target. I might as well test it right now to get answers faster.
I'm drooling over the the Guardian Fighter buffs, specially the buffs for Mark. It's a start, but I'm hoping GF's will get more utility associated with their TAB power aside from the defense reduction. Although I really like how the Focused Mark will stay even if the GF gets hit. Focused Mark will be a useful tool for generating threat using it conjunction with Enhanced Mark. Not that it'll be any useful for parties that love to speed run dungeons. But for those who like to take things at a leisurely and casual pace, this should give further threat generation for the GF of the party. Pop it on the Boss and let it build threat, then you get both the boss and the adds. Not to mention we also get buffs to Enforced Threat and Iron Warrior. It doesn't make us any more useful to the eyes of the speed runners, but I love the buffs nonetheless.
Impact Shot: Power was capable of dealing too much damage from a safe distance. Rather than flat out reducing damage overall, each shot now gains bonus damage based on how many charges remain. Deals around 33% less damage if all shots are used back to back, but with full charges, the first shot is the same damage as before.
And I'm pretty sure some players will like this new addition to the coming PVP match. I'm still crossing my fingers about Roots going through CC immunity.
You better all ow us to qeue partial domination matches on the preview server, or your Tenacity feedback thread might as well be locked. No one can provide you feedback if we cannot get into matches to actually do testing. Moving feedback posts that are speculative is great if people can actually test the mechanics. If not, speculation is all we can do based on past pvp experience in other games that did the exact same things.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited January 2014
I am so glad I did not just waste another $200.00 on this game to get perfect vorpal and other pvp gear.
As a matter of fact.. I will not be spending any more money on this game.
We pay money to drive a high end v8 car basically (gear stuff), and then one day we wake up and you (developers) come to our house and say sorry (but you don't say sorry!) you spent all that money on your car (gear stuff), but we are taking it back but here is a scooter (gear stuff) in its place!
This is wrong on so many levels.
Every game that I have played in the past that followed the above format ended up failing.
All you are doing is stealing the fun from the game, and building mistrust with your customers.
Why spend money on stuff just to have it become worthless?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Comments
1v1 against a hunter ranger:
1v1 against a CW:
1v1 against a TR:
Notice in the first two 1v1s about 45% of my total healing on myself was from regeneration. My healing word was healing for ~310 every 3 seconds whereas my regeneration was healing for a maximum of 1778 every 3 seconds. In the 1v1 against the CW i received 116k healing from regeneration and 128k from ALL of my other heals combined. There's something significantly wrong with this picture. A dedicated 'healing' class that has virtually non-existent assist-damage and absolutely no crowd control is being out-healed by a stat on people's gear. Even if regeneration was reduced in half it would still be healing for more than the cleric class can with the new 50% healing debuff in PvP.
So thanks for trying to fix things but if this is what goes forward I'll just continue to ignore PvP and hope it doesn't lead to too many nerfs to classes that impact PvE.
I feel with you, a cleric cant heal in NV...
And this, burn pw, burn, will never buy another zen.
This here is the dilemma. I've been in five guilds (over half a dozen characters, mind you) where the majority of play was spent either in dungeon delves, or pvping in between. Its not often I meet the same opponent twice in a week, even PUG on PUG. Between GG and Arena, there is a large assortment of names.
So I would place my personal experience against your belief. My personal experience is that players grind gear in dungeons ... to pvp in better gear. They buy up stacks of enchants ... to get better enchants for pvp.
PvP isn't EVERYBODIES game, for sure. But I doubt they are the minority you mention.
I mean, why would any player need rank 10 enchants or full t2 gear sets to run dungeons? T1 gear and rank 7's will support almost every class (except maybe GF's) in almost every dungeon. NPC's just don't offer that kind of power requirement.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
I have a few toons with GG pvp sets too. I don't like to pvp, and the only reason I do GG pvp is to get the T2 gear for PVE. Whatever changes they are planning to make to PVP, there is a sufficiently vocal PVP community on the forum to give the Devs feedback. But players who mainly/purely PVE might not be vocal enough to get the attention of the Devs. My feedback to the Devs is, don't make changes in PVP that affects PVE too much, if that is possible. Any negative changes to PVE due to changes in PVP will definitely upset and drive away PVE players, even if no one voice out their displeasure on he forum.
I know right? Out of all the good ideas put forth. THIS is thier solution? A solution that amplfies problems ten fold than they already are? I just cannot fathom it. The one thing I liked about pvp in this game is it lacked the required "resilience" stat other games have for pvp. You an pvp and pve with any assortment of gear as long as it matches the playstyle that best suits it.
Just this tenacity HAMSTER alone just wrecks that. And thats just talking about that specific aspect.
What was so hard about making gearscore ranked matchmaking. That would have been muuuuuch better than this.
yes. Its actually aloooot of people that pvp. I pvp quite often through multiple characters since april. And out of all the matches, I estimate only less than 5% of the people I encounter is people I've encountered before.
Whoever said people that pvp is a minority is just speaking madness. They are the people who invest the heaviest in gear and as you said, that is the reason people devote such high rank enchants for thier gear. Dungeons do not require such a heavy investment like that.
Just as Lobo said, pvp isnt everybodies game. thats fine. But that doesnt mean just because someone doesnt like pvp, its there for a minority. That couldnt be further from the truth.
Overall. As its been said, all these changes will do is funnel people into cookie cutter builds now. Just looking at these changes, makes me lose all desire to pvp.
And since I pretty much keep 'Takedown' on my power list for both my destroyer and sentinel GWF, I know it's use in PvP. To play without it is to intentionally weaken yourself.
If there was a definable stat and enchant that I could put into place to give me more resistance? I'm all for it! Not an 'immunity', per se, but at least something like a 25% chance (if I fully fit for it) that the prone effect won't apply. Damage, sure. But not the additional CC prone.
My point, though, is this doesn't need to be a 'PvP only' change.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
No man, there are several classes in the game right now that can't be killed without a perfect prone chain. More survivability in PvP is not whats needed.
If you check earlier, I'm not just pushing for a change to the prone mechanic. I also believe lifesteal and regen should be updated. But just because GWF is rather unbalanced, or because TR stealth and damage immunity options are too easy to follow one on top of the other, doesn't mean that ANYBODY should be able to be prone-chained. That's a bad mechanic to fix other bad mechanics.
Or as they say in asia, two Wong's don't make a white.
No, being able to fit your gear for standing up to these attacks? That's a tradeoff. That's a build option. That's potential flavor.
I would agree, though, if you might oppose the best defense/deflect gear also being the best prone-defense gear, though. That wouldn't be good planing.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
The PVP community has communicated dozens upon dozens of times a few simple things we want:
1) More maps and modes.
2) Better GS matching or PMvsPM matching.
3) More effective way to deal with "leavers."
I know others have put forth other suggestions, but I frequent the forums a lot, and have seen these requests over and over again. The changes are so simple and so easy, I'm astonished Cryptic hasn't implemented them. And instead of listening to their player base, they give us this: Nerfing the one class that has no need to be nerfed, buffing a class that is already pretty well-balanced, and creating a PVP stat to complicated matters more.
*shakes head* What is wrong, Cryptic? That you so easily dismiss the reasonable requests of your player base?
So thankful I'm 100% F2P, Trace
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Honestly, I could handle the current balance, if these three points were met in some shape, form or fashion.
Please, Cryptic: don't waste a whole module on this. These are simple additions, not requiring the loss of six months worth of content.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Stopping the one shots by people would be pretty easy. Just reduce the damage taken by 20% in pvp settings.
To fix the unkillable builds, reduce the healing of regeneration and life steal by 33%. Even with the 20% reduction of damage from players, the unkillable builds would still die faster. By only reducing the healing of regeneration and life having a DC in the group would once again be useful.
^This just this!
But anyway, when this Tenecity nonsense goes live, there wont be any use for a PMvsPM queue cuz no one of the actual pvp players will play this game anymore and will move on, incuding me.
And to be honest my patience is close to the end, we NEVER get any feedback, doesnt matter if it's nerfs, classbalance or pvp. They just always open a ''Feedback thread'', dont care about it and just do whatever they want.
If they would actually listen to use, we would have more pvp maps already and a queue system or a some kind of foundry thingy to make our own pvp maps.
But ye in the end we get Tenecity nonsense with terrible calculated numbers, therefore destroyed build flexibilities and a healing class that heals for less than a ''regen stat'' on gear!
It doesnt require rocket science knowledge to see that this stuff isnt going to work and no one even asked for it!
But ye in the end it will just be again suck it or leave it but this time lots of ppl will pick the leave option.
If they rly wanna bring Tenecity, bring it as an enchant for glory! But ffs dont force us to use ->1<- gear set, doesnt matter how bad the stats are, the tenecity always wins...
I agree with the previous posters: This is an overkill where minor tweaking could have already made a noticeable difference. And like I said in another thread: Sometime it might be better to start small and let the system grow over time.
It is kind of like the older days WOW where player can not be killed unless heavily focused, and in neverwinter we only have 5 v 5 if you exclude GG as PVP. I have not run premade under these changes but I assume the whole PVP in this mode is gonna be highly relied on utility skill from each class in order to gain more points and win the game. Which only make every PVP match insanely long and most of the time boring.
The GF buff seem absolutely needed and well deserved. But anything else just seem like another lazy and clueless move done by Cryptic. Just as What they did at Mod 2: destroy GF by simply sharing path between GWF and GF without any further tweak to these 2 classes.
And if this is the so called PVP changes in the upcoming Mod 3 I gonna be really sad. Hell I would just buy myself a diamond elo LOL account and go play that at least it is fun and comparably much more balanced. And with ESO and Everquest coming out NWN is gonna die out if the Dev doesn't do something awesome to win the player base.
That is precisely what I've pretty much gotten from this as well.
It just gets so frustrating when they make sweeping unnessecary changes like this, where they could have done some very simple things that was laid out right on the table for them, for mooonths.
Just as the others said. for moooonths pvpers been telling what they want and its not something that requires sweeping changes through anything. Just small adjustments.
Agreed 100% Trace. The balance issues people have in PvP's aren't class imbalance issues they're gear issues. I've watched highly skilled BiS players of different classes 1v1 numerous times and I must say, they're pretty well balanced across the board when played correctly, excluding people who use broken encounters/dailies. In proper premade vs premade matches with rainbow team compositions and skilled players you'll find that nothing is OP or impossible to counter in some way and the match becomes about proper teamwork, communication and having the right characters in the right place, which is as it should be in a POINT domination. It takes minimal thought capacity to realize that someone with T1 purple or blue gear, no weapon or armor enchants and ranks 5's max won't stand a chance against someone who's fully end game geared. Even as small of a change as having two brackets for pvp would alleviate the majority of problems people are having and the distinction could be as simple as having an Open PvP bracket in which any level 60 can queue with or without teammates exactly like it is now and a Limited bracket in which you are disqualified from queuing once your character has predominantly purple level enchantments and anything greater than a lesser weapon or armor enchantment. Also I would propose that people could only solo queue for the limited bracket to eliminate the premade issue as well as add in a mechanic that would not allow gear to be equipped with an illegal enchantment just like what prohibits usage of regular healing potions. I would caution against gear score bracket divisions as there have been very strong PvP builds in this game that carry low gear scores, not to mention the gear score diversity between equivalently geared characters of different classes.
I feel that the proposed changes would be a major step backwards and would do nothing except alienate the player base that has spent countless hours refining and testing their builds to be what they are now. It would be a huge slap in the face to nerf them after all that and buff everyone else who just picked up the basic PvP gear. The only thing PvP in this game has going for it honestly is the free will to build your character how you want to and reach the power levels that are currently possible. If we wanted to play a cookie cutter PvP arena game with very limited character improvement options there are numerous games out there to choose from that already have plenty of variety as far as game modes and map selection, why would anybody stick around here if it's going to move further in that direction yet offer the same two maps and single game mode? PvP in neverwinter has such potential to be amazing, the character classes are great and the combat actually takes skill to be better than your opponent and disregarding exploitable powers that need to be addressed I can only see minor tweaks being necessary to fix any balance issues that may exist. For example, if HP regeneration can be stacked to OP levels then lower it's effectiveness to some degree, don't hamstring the only healing class the game has with an across the board healing nerf. A strong healer should make his/her teammates extremely hard or impossible to kill when he/she is around, that's what their job is, so why take that away from them? Please listen to the constructive feedback from your players who actually care about PvP in this game while they are still here. /walloftext
Cheers
Exactly. As someone who premades competitively, you quickly realize that every class can be countered through appropriate communication and effective rotations of players. GWFs may need some tweaking, as they are currently both outstanding tanks and DPS classes. However, many of the blanket-wide suggested changes make little sense. From what I've seen on the test shard, these changes will make PvP for high end payers more boring (with DPS output and build flexibility significantly curtailed) and essentially crushes the DC.
If the goal is to prevent PUGs from getting one/two-shot by geared players, then create a separate queue or a matchmaking system. This would be more fun for all players, rather than destroying the flexibility and dynamic nature of PvP. In addition, simply nerf regen by 30-50% if you don't want fights lasting as long.
A matchmaking system is really the only solution. However I submit that it should ignore GS entirely and be based solely on performance, as GS is already a terrible calculation of gear anyways, including feats, boons, companions, etc.
I can't disagree with anything said here, although I can admit I haven't played a cleric in PvP, but the changes look quite devastating for them.
All that aside, I don't mind the implementation of Tenacity, if for nothing else than to give more people a reason to PvP: for Tenacity gear. With only 2 Tenacity sets tho, it's going to make PvP very boring very quickly seeing every class run around in the same gear as each other.
Which brings us back to the original point: more than we need Tenacity, we need more incentives (glory buyables), more maps, more modes, and MATCHMAKING.
Yes. Yes please. This is what the PvP community has been asking for this entire time. I also agree that GS isn't a great measure for matchmaking; as a PvP DC, a good deal of my equipment is blue. Matchmaking should probably be based on some equation that takes into account a person's death and kill/assist ratio adjusted for their class.
This will take in effect skill,GS and to some extent certain spec that can only take you so far, due to the ineffectiveness of said build.
For leavers just give them a timed debuff that lengthens per leave or temp ban pvp for 15 mins per leave.
As for the tenacity thing..... 5 5wfs/GFS vs 5 Gwfs/gfs, the top teams go at it.
I'm drooling over the the Guardian Fighter buffs, specially the buffs for Mark. It's a start, but I'm hoping GF's will get more utility associated with their TAB power aside from the defense reduction. Although I really like how the Focused Mark will stay even if the GF gets hit. Focused Mark will be a useful tool for generating threat using it conjunction with Enhanced Mark. Not that it'll be any useful for parties that love to speed run dungeons. But for those who like to take things at a leisurely and casual pace, this should give further threat generation for the GF of the party. Pop it on the Boss and let it build threat, then you get both the boss and the adds. Not to mention we also get buffs to Enforced Threat and Iron Warrior. It doesn't make us any more useful to the eyes of the speed runners, but I love the buffs nonetheless.
And I'm pretty sure some players will like this new addition to the coming PVP match. I'm still crossing my fingers about Roots going through CC immunity.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
As a matter of fact.. I will not be spending any more money on this game.
We pay money to drive a high end v8 car basically (gear stuff), and then one day we wake up and you (developers) come to our house and say sorry (but you don't say sorry!) you spent all that money on your car (gear stuff), but we are taking it back but here is a scooter (gear stuff) in its place!
This is wrong on so many levels.
Every game that I have played in the past that followed the above format ended up failing.
All you are doing is stealing the fun from the game, and building mistrust with your customers.
Why spend money on stuff just to have it become worthless?