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Fighters Tab Power, comparisson
zardoz007
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 2 Arc User
For a long time on these forums the fighters tab powers both Unstoppable and Mark are widely commented on. Unstoppable as the bane of those PvPers that fight a GWF and Mark the underpowered Tab of the GF that cannot comapre to any other classes tab powers. And then GF like to hold there Mark up next to Unstoppable and ask Why would you place this weak power on us when GWF get something so awesome.
When I see daily the hate GWF get in game for playing PvP and how HR replace them as AOE DPS and GF replace them as tanks, it's hard to not think these GF's that cry about there mark powers are really worth spending time on. Especially when I see other GF players pump up how awesome they are.
But I do agree with the GF players that there class features are not up to snuff. In fact I used to argue about the Mark tab power back when the game went live. After all these months of play I realize. It is not the GF's Tab that makes the GF special it is his Shift.
GF Block is equivalent in purpose to any of the other classes Tab powers. It is rooted into his class, you can use passives to make it better and your feats and powers key off of it increasing it and make block even better.
That is the purpose of Block but it is not the function. GF block has a couple fatal errors in it's design which is the cause of GF's saying block is useless, I have a paper shield, and then of course crying about there counterpart GWF and his awesome Unstoppable.
So I am not saying Mark does nto need any attention but Block needs the most of it.
First one of the reasons why GF's feel block breaks to early is because your block meter is reduced based on the damage you would of taken. So if you stack alot of defense and deflect your block lasts longer. But it is by game design that it is more effective to play a GF that can deal at least a medium amount of damage if not all out damage then to have one that is focused on defense. So Block never reaches it's full possible potential, and never will.
Now lets look at Unstoppable and see why it is so good. Unstoppable is fuel by the loss of hitpoints. meaning the more HP return that a GWF gets the more Hp he lass to lose and the more he gets to use Unstoppable. The DC quickly becomes the GWF's best friend in PVE and of course Regen in PvP. Unstoppable is based on a duration and not reduced per hit like a GF's block is so it lasts a set amount of time. Making it just as good against super powerful end bosses as it is against trash you fight solo.
Now A GF's block meter is reduced based on how many attacks you block and the strength of each attack. Because of this block is endless when you solo you can pretty much block through any solo trash fight end game and not take any damage. sure it slow, but it shows the real power of block. Too bad this is not useful at all.
So when the GF gets into a dungeon and is then surrounded by 3 red circles his first instinct is too block, then he takes three big hits and his guard is broken. With a broken guard the GF is vulnerable to CC and all attacks.
Fact Gaurd can break faster than any class can use up there stamina. Fact when gaurd breaks teh GF can still be CCed from the aattack that broke his gaurd and he still takes a portion of damage from the attack. This means in certain circumstances. Primarily those around Epic Dungeons Block is the worst shift power of any class.
Against overlapping red circles any other class but the GF can simply shift out of the way using only a portion of there shift bar. It takes the GF's full block meter to do that and he will still often be knocked prone and take some damage.
Now another problem with block is it's hit detection. You can only block attacks from a certain direction. This makes sense you have to face a mob to block attacks. perfectly okay with this. However there is a flaw to this as well. Some mobs use burst attacks. Create a red circle that you can only block by facing the center of that red circle. IE you must turn you back on the mob that used this attack to block the red circle centered behind you.
This is more a more complicated shift mechanic of any other class. All other classes just shift away. A GF needs to know what kind of attack to effectively defend himself from it. And often block is not the best choice, it can at time be the worst thing you do, if a GF can walk out of the area before the attack goes off that is always the best choice.
The worst instance I've seen of this recently is Valindra in VT. Sure channels a magic circle on the ground that hits multiple times and then bursts to sap your AP and deal damage. A GF that blocks this will find that he can block the all the initial hits, losing block meter on every hit, while facing Valindra. But the final attack is a burst and you must face the center of the circle to potect yourself from a burst. A GF that blocks this attack properly uses up his entire guard meter and keeps his AP. A GF that fails to turn towards the center of the burst gets hit in the back uses up his entire block meter and loses all his AP.
A GF that moves slowly out of the circle saves his skin and his block meter. Every other class can also just walk out of this circle and save there shift. But no other class is penalized by using shift like the GF is.
Now the solution is two parts and simple.
First, Remove the hit detection from circular burst attacks for block. IE as long as you block in a red circle you block the attack even if you do not face the attacks center.
Second, Make block a time limit power like sprint is for GWF. You lose block meter over time, not per hit or from strong hits. This makes block less powerful while soloing but better in Epic dungeons and it makes block consistent no matter where you use it. Let a GF block a group of mobs for a few seconds while his party catches up to him. Let him block 3 overlapping red circles, and likely be thrown across the map from knockback for doing so, but he does stop the attack. No one of any other class is going to complain that a GF's block is better than there shift, because by concept it should be.
Next I will touch on GF Mark as it I hate useless moves and this one becomes redundant at higher level, with threatening rush and enforced threats. It does not need much just a few buffs. First it should mark in a small area equal to threatening rush, making it as useful to mark as threatening rush so GF's do not need Iron Vanguard to mark and a third paragon path could be a viable option for the GF. Second it should generate threat when applied to marked targets. The strength of this threat should be based on the GF's total combined defensive stats. One thing the GF is very poor at is holding threat with a pure defensive build. This will give the GF some threat power if they just want to be a wall that does no damage. A concept alot of players like to try and ultimately all fail at.
When I see daily the hate GWF get in game for playing PvP and how HR replace them as AOE DPS and GF replace them as tanks, it's hard to not think these GF's that cry about there mark powers are really worth spending time on. Especially when I see other GF players pump up how awesome they are.
But I do agree with the GF players that there class features are not up to snuff. In fact I used to argue about the Mark tab power back when the game went live. After all these months of play I realize. It is not the GF's Tab that makes the GF special it is his Shift.
GF Block is equivalent in purpose to any of the other classes Tab powers. It is rooted into his class, you can use passives to make it better and your feats and powers key off of it increasing it and make block even better.
That is the purpose of Block but it is not the function. GF block has a couple fatal errors in it's design which is the cause of GF's saying block is useless, I have a paper shield, and then of course crying about there counterpart GWF and his awesome Unstoppable.
So I am not saying Mark does nto need any attention but Block needs the most of it.
First one of the reasons why GF's feel block breaks to early is because your block meter is reduced based on the damage you would of taken. So if you stack alot of defense and deflect your block lasts longer. But it is by game design that it is more effective to play a GF that can deal at least a medium amount of damage if not all out damage then to have one that is focused on defense. So Block never reaches it's full possible potential, and never will.
Now lets look at Unstoppable and see why it is so good. Unstoppable is fuel by the loss of hitpoints. meaning the more HP return that a GWF gets the more Hp he lass to lose and the more he gets to use Unstoppable. The DC quickly becomes the GWF's best friend in PVE and of course Regen in PvP. Unstoppable is based on a duration and not reduced per hit like a GF's block is so it lasts a set amount of time. Making it just as good against super powerful end bosses as it is against trash you fight solo.
Now A GF's block meter is reduced based on how many attacks you block and the strength of each attack. Because of this block is endless when you solo you can pretty much block through any solo trash fight end game and not take any damage. sure it slow, but it shows the real power of block. Too bad this is not useful at all.
So when the GF gets into a dungeon and is then surrounded by 3 red circles his first instinct is too block, then he takes three big hits and his guard is broken. With a broken guard the GF is vulnerable to CC and all attacks.
Fact Gaurd can break faster than any class can use up there stamina. Fact when gaurd breaks teh GF can still be CCed from the aattack that broke his gaurd and he still takes a portion of damage from the attack. This means in certain circumstances. Primarily those around Epic Dungeons Block is the worst shift power of any class.
Against overlapping red circles any other class but the GF can simply shift out of the way using only a portion of there shift bar. It takes the GF's full block meter to do that and he will still often be knocked prone and take some damage.
Now another problem with block is it's hit detection. You can only block attacks from a certain direction. This makes sense you have to face a mob to block attacks. perfectly okay with this. However there is a flaw to this as well. Some mobs use burst attacks. Create a red circle that you can only block by facing the center of that red circle. IE you must turn you back on the mob that used this attack to block the red circle centered behind you.
This is more a more complicated shift mechanic of any other class. All other classes just shift away. A GF needs to know what kind of attack to effectively defend himself from it. And often block is not the best choice, it can at time be the worst thing you do, if a GF can walk out of the area before the attack goes off that is always the best choice.
The worst instance I've seen of this recently is Valindra in VT. Sure channels a magic circle on the ground that hits multiple times and then bursts to sap your AP and deal damage. A GF that blocks this will find that he can block the all the initial hits, losing block meter on every hit, while facing Valindra. But the final attack is a burst and you must face the center of the circle to potect yourself from a burst. A GF that blocks this attack properly uses up his entire guard meter and keeps his AP. A GF that fails to turn towards the center of the burst gets hit in the back uses up his entire block meter and loses all his AP.
A GF that moves slowly out of the circle saves his skin and his block meter. Every other class can also just walk out of this circle and save there shift. But no other class is penalized by using shift like the GF is.
Now the solution is two parts and simple.
First, Remove the hit detection from circular burst attacks for block. IE as long as you block in a red circle you block the attack even if you do not face the attacks center.
Second, Make block a time limit power like sprint is for GWF. You lose block meter over time, not per hit or from strong hits. This makes block less powerful while soloing but better in Epic dungeons and it makes block consistent no matter where you use it. Let a GF block a group of mobs for a few seconds while his party catches up to him. Let him block 3 overlapping red circles, and likely be thrown across the map from knockback for doing so, but he does stop the attack. No one of any other class is going to complain that a GF's block is better than there shift, because by concept it should be.
Next I will touch on GF Mark as it I hate useless moves and this one becomes redundant at higher level, with threatening rush and enforced threats. It does not need much just a few buffs. First it should mark in a small area equal to threatening rush, making it as useful to mark as threatening rush so GF's do not need Iron Vanguard to mark and a third paragon path could be a viable option for the GF. Second it should generate threat when applied to marked targets. The strength of this threat should be based on the GF's total combined defensive stats. One thing the GF is very poor at is holding threat with a pure defensive build. This will give the GF some threat power if they just want to be a wall that does no damage. A concept alot of players like to try and ultimately all fail at.
Post edited by zardoz007 on
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Comments
so basically i almost fully agree with your post zardoz
i will not comment gf shield vs gwf unstopable as it should be fixed in mod4, but refered to gf tab power: we got mark as "special power" while e.g. gwf with vanguard path also get mark with threating rush (which is too much for enough fast gwfs) for free. our tab power is the weakest one, you wrote that gf shield should be treat as "tab power" but from second hand, we are the slowest class in this game so if the shield should be treat as "tab power" than we should get some dodge.
refering to the bold one: does anyone can explain if our mark give the same damage resistance bypass like mark from threating rush? or it has a difference (i only want to know about dr ignore, i don't care atm about threat generator etc.)
Just can mark one enemy at a time. He deals -x% Damage or every char in grp that attacs the marked enemy gets +x% Aktionpoints or +x% defense against attacks of the marked enemy. Somthing strategic like that.
I play Off-GF, you can forget the DPS compared to other classes. Def-GF is still not really needed, because of the DPS-Fokus. I just see my future GF as Buff machine. Call him Paladin. Let him buff the group and let him tank a bit.