As a TR myself my only concern with GWF is Thretening Rush.
Since I cannot run away any more in between one stealth phase or encounter (be it a smoke bomb/dazing strike/shadow strike/impossible to catch) I make it a pure dps race (I'm using path of the blade right now just to counter their exploits with another exploited power).
Sometimes I win sometimes I don't. Problem is there's very little to none skill involved since crits and deflects play such a big role. I don't even dodge roll away, European ping is so bad compared to the US one that it's useless anyway.
Anyway at least now destroyer GWFs can actually kill a rogue. I'd only like they know, it's not a matter of "skill" .
I don't even dodge roll away, European ping is so bad compared to the US one that it's useless anyway
This^^^^
One of the main reason pvp becomes a more or less pure luck based system. The ping is so bad that you have to guess what other players are about to do instead of acting based on what they do. Red circles hitting you miles away couse they already hit before you moved out 2 sec ago ......
As i play gwf it dont effect me as badly as tr cw it must be hell for them out there trying to time things.....
As a TR myself my only concern with GWF is Thretening Rush.
Since I cannot run away any more in between one stealth phase or encounter (be it a smoke bomb/dazing strike/shadow strike/impossible to catch) I make it a pure dps race (I'm using path of the blade right now just to counter their exploits with another exploited power).
Sometimes I win sometimes I don't. Problem is there's very little to none skill involved since crits and deflects play such a big role. I don't even dodge roll away, European ping is so bad compared to the US one that it's useless anyway.
Anyway at least now destroyer GWFs can actually kill a rogue. I'd only like they know, it's not a matter of "skill" .
Threatening Rush is only good on a plain ground. My GWF starts twitching like a crack addict in a spot whenever there's a little bump or elevation difference between me and my target. So, run to a higher ground and see the GWFs do the zombie dance.
Threatening Rush is only good on a plain ground. My GWF starts twitching like a crack addict in a spot whenever there's a little bump or elevation difference between me and my target. So, run to a higher ground and see the GWFs do the zombie dance.
I'll try to lure the GWF away from the flag then, thank you for the hint. Really appreciated.
I'd only hope this won't be the one and only since what the OP wrote seems pretty obvious to me (I'm not a skilled/expert PvPer, I just think they are common sense suggestions) and, like I said before, most of the time is simply unpractical due to technical issues (i.e. latency).
That's because it's not really "advice". It's really more like "yup, I know GWFs are OP, so all you can really do is dodge or run away". It's a bit insulting, actually.
I find as a combat HR, aimed shot is a really good way to lure them away. Either they come after you, or focus on you to deal with the damage, or you're left free-casting aimed shots that can start to hurt. Especially if others are on point pressuring them. That still puts it on a multi-vs-few setup. But then again, you're talking a GWF + good DC.
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nearlydiamondMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 105Bounty Hunter
edited December 2013
I am GWF sentinel build with reasonable gear.
1) HR can own me with Aimed shot.
2) DC/PVP specced CW can own me with me barely denting their health pool by keeping apropriate distances - Forgemaster's Flame for example in an apropriately specced DC is insane protection
3) Regn is totally negated by DoT Damage - slpt something that will stack a DoT and we're even. Slot something that also wrecks Defence and you are a sentinel killer, even with Unstoppable
4) My Sprint is not infinate - the new builds can close gaps better it's true, but this is needed as there arenow ranged Rogues, to add into the mix with DCs, HRs and CWs.
5) none of the new skills are any more effective on the GWF than they were on the GF before the patch - we all feared a well specced and well geared skilled GF on a point - the same rules apply, only unstoppable reduced damage and doesn't negate it like shield block does - therefore we can still take damage.
6) teamwork is the key - focus fire on any class shreds them, even GWFs. An unco-ordinated team is mostly the reason for all the complaints.
GWF is fun in PvP, but I don't think there is an imbalance, several of my friends say the same for the classes they play that aren't GWF.
GWF are a monster against pugs. I destroy people with my 10k GS until I get up against a premade or just a good pair that includes a GF. GF pretty effectively counters a GWF. Not only do GF's have some of the highest burst damage in the game they can keep a target prone for an extended period of time more than long enough to kill any GWF no matter how tanky they are, if the GWF can never get an unstoppable off they die pretty **** quickly no matter how well geared they are.
On a side note how come no-one complains about GF using 3 encounters and hitting for 30k+ damage? Highest I've personally seen so far was 48k on 3 hit powers, no daily.
On a side note how come no-one complains about GF using 3 encounters and hitting for 30k+ damage? Highest I've personally seen so far was 48k on 3 hit powers, no daily.
Because they cannot go unstoppable after you root them in place and close on you, basically. With a GWF is a given fact that after you damage them they will go red and come after you. With a GF, as a ranged char it's simple: if you're good, you can keep GF at range and in the end you might kill him. If you not so good, they will close on you and you pay the price.
I've leveled GF, CW and now GWF to 60 mainly doing pvp (though the gwf is currently advancing through the 40's). The class is op for pvp, which does not merit a nerf, it merits making some of the other classes stronger. The gwf boost was a result of empowering a class instead of nerfing op classes. In pvp currently GWF, HR, and TR are op. GF is just fine. That means CW needs a boost. But really...as gwf I fear nothing in combat more than massive burst damage. DPS is a joke. Being cc'd by choke while conduit shreds away HP, and other toons slap away at me only makes me smile for soon unstoppable will light up, and when that choke is over all of my cd's will be fresh, and all of the attackers powers will be on cd. That means a lot of running away from my toon, or they try to contest the node and get ripped apart.
The worst thing I can see on a node (as a gwf) is a shard (of avalanche) and some unseen cw in the shadows with her finger on the detonate button. CW's: stealing time>shard>chill strike. Better yet: singularity>shard>stealing time>chill strike. Burst>cc>burst>burst>cc. All CW really needs is "improved invisibility" as a power and it would be just about even in pvp with the other classes.
But ya, burst damage. DPS just heals gwf's. Repulse is nasty also. HR's can be a nightmare when they are GOOD hr's and can anger you enough to take your attention off a node to focus on them. HR's cornered and cc'd somewhere (front line surge ftw) are dead.
So vs GWF: CW- ranged burst, don't even try to get close to the gwf. HR- cozy up in a concealed perch and snipe away, don't try to get close. GF-stand your ground, time the breaking of your guard with an anvil of doom cd and hit it. Lunging strike>front line surge>anvil of doom and you will 3 shot many a gwf. GWF- just slug it out. TR- you know what to do. DC- everything you got that heals party when target gets hit, keep that on gwf, heal your party. Few things are more annoying for my lvl 40 6k gs gwf with plaguefire and tranquil than trying to force an under geared, not so skilled, gf off a node with a &^%$ cleric constantly healing it. I yell at my pc "anvil of doom me, front line surge me, villains menace me....knee break....so much" but they just stand there until their guard breaks and then run around the node. So I focus the cleric :P
So ya,
1. gwfs are currently op for pvp which is good because better to boost class b than nerf class a.
2. gwfs can be adequately countered, often nullified.
Because they cannot go unstoppable after you root them in place and close on you, basically. With a GWF is a given fact that after you damage them they will go red and come after you. With a GF, as a ranged char it's simple: if you're good, you can keep GF at range and in the end you might kill him. If you not so good, they will close on you and you pay the price.
Seems quite balanced to me.
Mmmm...put that way it sounds like that if you're good, there's nothing the GF can do. In my opinion, for something to be balanced both sides must have weapons to fight each Others. Nit a "if he makes a mistake, i can win". That's not balance. It's balanced if you can play it good, but i can play it better or MAKE you fail.
From my point of view, right now a CW have all the weapons to fight a GWF.
CW: very high damage, lots of cc that must be used wisely, pushback and teleport immunity. Plus very high AP generation and a very powerful daily (ice knife). Now, the GWF can go unstoppable and threat rush on you. What can you do? First: before he's able to "get red", deal as much spike damage as you can and repel. He will run over you, may be sprint and threat rush. Now, he can reach you in between your encounters cooldown. Unstoppable just makes his at-wills go faster, the only problem is you can't cc him now. Threat rush is mainly a gap-closer for a GWF. Once he reach you, he still has to unload his encounters on you. Now, you want to tell me you can't time your teleport to match his slow takedown animation? To hit you, quite simply, a GWF has to prone you first. Else, IBS is NEVER going to land unless you purposely stand there to get it.
You just have to wait for his animations to start before teleporting. If you're teleporting right when he touch you with threat rush, it's your fault.
Teleport immune has a use. It's just that 99% of CWs use it wrong, aka they teleport when you reach them instead of teleporting when they see the SLOW encounter animation starting.
If you use it correctly, it's easy to send 90% of GWF encounters on cooldown. Aka, he can hit you with at-wills while you can hit him with your encounters.
Only problematic encounters are:
Roar
Frontline
cause they are ranged. BUT they have also a gap (animation for roar, double tap for frontline) you can use to avoid them. If you know the GWF uses frontline or roar (since you're ranged, just look at him fighting other team mates) you are 99% sure he will unload them as soon as he can. Move in circle, it's the best way to avoid the hit.
It's a matter of skills. You can immune dodge his encounters, he can catch up on you and try to land them. If you can outhink him and predict when he will roar or frontline, you win. If he can fool you and make you waste your teleports, he wins.
But you have the weapons to avoid his Attacks. Reaching you is not enough enough, unless you waste your teleports.
Same goes for HRs and TRs and DCs. You all have immune dodges. And the GWF have slow encounter animations. Players just need to stop complaining and learn how to dodge and send the GWF encounters on cooldown.
GFs have block. Same thing. Learn how to use it. Guard up against encounters, guard down against at wills, expecially if the GWF is in unstoppable. Lock on him to avoid being circled.
I mean, from my point of view any class have weapons to fight my unstoppable, my sprint and my threat rush. It's just that 90% of the times i see them using their weapons TERRIBLY wrong.
If i unload my enounters on a ITC TR, or on a blocking GF, i can't complain and say it's unfair. I'm just doing it wrong. Same goes for everything else.
I don't know how else to explain this stuff.
Asking for a system where you've a guaranteed win if YOU play it well, is just not balanced.
It's balanced if even if you play it well, i can play it better.
GWF vs CW is just a fight of minds. He must find a way to trick you and land his encounters when he reaches you, you have to watch him closely and use your teleport immunity to nullify his encounters when he tries to use them.
A GWF caould be able to fly or teleport to you, but if he can't land his SLOW, let me repeat it SLOW, encounters, it's useless. And to avoid him Landing his SLOW encounters, you've to time your immunity dodges with his encounters animation. Which, i may say, are SLOW.
Hope i've repeated this stuff enough to make 1% of the Readers understand it. Stop focusing on how fast a GWF can get to you, and start focusing on how SLOW he is when he tries to ACTUALLY hit you with his encounters.
This^^^^
One of the main reason pvp becomes a more or less pure luck based system. The ping is so bad that you have to guess what other players are about to do instead of acting based on what they do. Red circles hitting you miles away couse they already hit before you moved out 2 sec ago ......
As i play gwf it dont effect me as badly as tr cw it must be hell for them out there trying to time things.....
That's because it's not really "advice". It's really more like "yup, I know GWFs are OP, so all you can really do is dodge or run away". It's a bit insulting, actually.
I play from europe and may the ping be as bad as it can be, the GWF encounters animation of takedown, IBS, fliurish and RS are so **** slow that you must have a 1 second latency to fail dodging them. You see the animation starting, you dodge/ teleport. Unless, as i said, you have a 1 second lag, his encounter will hit your immunity and go on cooldown.
And i didn't write "all you can do is run away". I actually explained how to effectively kite a GWF, be it swordmaster or iron vanguard. And send his encounters on cooldown. If you want to be able to beat a GWF without kiting him and dodging, or if you don't use your dodge immunity moves, what are we talking about? You're never going to win against a GWF with a bit of experience and you will complain forever about them being OP.
If the latency for you is that bad, then blame the latency/ your connection, and not the balance of the game. This is a action mmo, combat is made of dodges, mobility and aiming. If lag is messing them up for you, you can't really blame a specific class.
There's a reason if any class have a move to 100% avoid damage (dodge immunity or block), and the GWF doesn't have it, but instead have a short unstoppable activating after taking damage. It's cause you've to actually use those moves to nullify the Attacks coming at you.
Using dodge immunity on a GWF encounters is the tactic. It's the reason you have the said immunity moves and GWF encounters have SLOW animations.
And the reason GWFs have unstoppable available AFTER taking damage, and gap closing moves, is cause they have 0 ways to avoid damage.
When it comes to teleport, perhaps 99% of CWs "use it wrong" because the animations aren't as slow and dodgeable as you think. YOU think they're slow. They're not all that slow.
Whatever that GWF encounter is that leaves you prone, I simply can't dodge that one.
Edit: Do you play with the sound off? Perhaps it is because I tend to respond better to aural stimuli rather than visual stimuli.
When it comes to teleport, perhaps 99% of CWs "use it wrong" because the animations aren't as slow and dodgeable as you think. YOU think they're slow. They're not all that slow.
Whatever that GWF encounter is that leaves you prone, I simply can't dodge that one.
Edit: Do you play with the sound off? Perhaps it is because I tend to respond better to aural stimuli rather than visual stimuli.
the frontline surge has a good range. everyone i am fighting I use that combo (takedown+frontlinesurge+ibs). for most dps. however, some experienced cws makes me use frontline surge first sometimes because of the range, watch the range.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I used roar and frontline. Not because they're the best combo, but because it's annoying. Having regularly been on the receiving side, I know just how annoying FS and roar are.
roar, frontline and IBS/Restoring strike/takedown depending on how trollish I feel.
CW's that take my GWF out typically do so via massive burst damage(as an example, RoE, CoI, Chill Strike, Icy Rays->My soulforge revive->Ice Knife) or via consistent high damage + repel until help arrives.
RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Mmmm...put that way it sounds like that if you're good, there's nothing the GF can do. In my opinion, for something to be balanced both sides must have weapons to fight each Others. Nit a "if he makes a mistake, i can win". That's not balance. It's balanced if you can play it good, but i can play it better or MAKE you fail.
From my point of view, right now a CW have all the weapons to fight a GWF.
Asking for a system where you've a guaranteed win if YOU play it well, is just not balanced.
...
I'll actually postpone my comments until Gannicus might post his CW vs GWF video, if he wants to
Usually however, GWFs have innate survivability AND enough burst damage to kill CWs, while CWs have to go through a lot of trouble gearing up and give up much of their damage only to be able to survive bad ping and inevitable mistakes in the heat of battle.
It is just as unfair as a CW vs GF battle, which if both are good, and there's enough space for the CW, will end up badly for the GF, and if there's not enough space, will end up badly for the CW.
As for balance, there's none in this game, unless you fight PM vs PM with all geared and with same/agreed upon comps.
When it comes to teleport, perhaps 99% of CWs "use it wrong" because the animations aren't as slow and dodgeable as you think. YOU think they're slow. They're not all that slow.
Whatever that GWF encounter is that leaves you prone, I simply can't dodge that one.
Edit: Do you play with the sound off? Perhaps it is because I tend to respond better to aural stimuli rather than visual stimuli.
Mmm..no, they ARE that slow. I made a specific explanation about frontline surge, which is what you call "that prone skill". That one, and Roar, are the 2 ranged moves that can be more difficult to dodge. The first one we got from GFs after module 2 release, is a double tap power (you've to press the button twice) that hits 3 targets in a straight AoE area ahead of the user. Roar hits in a cone-shaped area in front of the user. As i explained before, as a ranged class, a CW can stay back at the start of the match ,and watch what the GWF does. If he uses Roar/ Frontline on someone, you know he is going to use them on you too. Range of both is 30'. 99% of the times a GWF will pop them as soon as possible. AKA: when you see him in range, start moving. Never stop moving. Both powers require for the GWF to stand still, and both have a small delay time. The GWF usually stops and then hit. If you see him stopping at a rough 30' distance from you, and you saw him using those powers, he will most likely use them to root/ prone you. Also: since the GWF has to stand still while using his encounters, if you keep moving you make it more difficult for him to aim at you.
Also, note that these 2 powers have downsides too. Frontline is a 19 seconds CD power. Roar does close to no damage, meaning the GWF loses almost 1/3 of his damage to be able to root the target from far.
Apart from roar and frontline, all the other encounters are very, very slow. Takedown is like 1 second long animation, with the GWF raising the weapon above his head and then smashing it down. You see him raising the weapon, you teleport. Same goes for IBS, whic is even slower, to the point that even a GWF can sprint away in time if you try to use it as the first power on a non-proned target. Flourish is very slow too. Slower than takedown. Restoring strike is may be just a bit faster than takedown.
I'll actually postpone my comments until Gannicus might post his CW vs GWF video, if he wants to
Usually however, GWFs have innate survivability AND enough burst damage to kill CWs, while CWs have to go through a lot of trouble gearing up and give up much of their damage only to be able to survive bad ping and inevitable mistakes in the heat of battle.
It is just as unfair as a CW vs GF battle, which if both are good, and there's enough space for the CW, will end up badly for the GF, and if there's not enough space, will end up badly for the CW.
As for balance, there's none in this game, unless you fight PM vs PM with all geared and with same/agreed upon comps.
If you ask me, if CW vs GF is situational, then it's balanced. Both have different strenghts, and both can take advantage of different situations/ settings. Must have a bit of strategy too when fighting.
I understand the ping issue, but it's, as i said, a ping issue, not a balance issue. I've fought some very good CWs that were able to wait for me to start my encounter to teleport. You get cc'ed/ DPS'd and repelled, then you reach your target. Now, i have to prone him. The strong CWs i fought never teleported right away when i reached them. They stood there, kept hitting me and the moment i started my takedown animation they teleported away. Same with flourish. Roar and frontline are harder to predict, but it's not impossible to make it more difficult to use them. If you slot mobility and keep moving in circle, it's not easy to hit you. Reason is: when the GWF press the button to use roar, there's a deleay (animation) between the imput and the hit. During that time, a moving target can be elsewhere/ out of the AoE area of the power. Same goes for frontline. It requires a double tap and can be predicted. And if you dodge it, it's 19 seconds cooldown.
Is it guaranteed? No. it's easy if a GWF is not good and Always use the same pattern: run at you, stop at 30', roar / frontline. You can easily predict that.
But a good GWF could, for example, stop and do nothing to trick you. You will be on the edge and teleport as soon as he stops. But what if he does not use the power? Teleport wasted.
On the other side, when i reach you, i've to ask myself: what will he do? Teleport now? Wait for my move? if i fail, my prone power goes on cooldown and good luck Landing a IBS on a moving target.
CWs/ TRs, most of the time, think about their dodges/ teleports just as a way to gain distance. I see them as a shield, thanks to their immunity effect.
But that's just my point of view.
I used to suck against permastealth TRs. Learned to out-think them. Now i don't have much problems facing them little <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
The game takes into account the "action" part of combat. Which means that a part of the balance takes into account the fact that you have to dodge, aim and move a lot.
So, i think that CWs using their teleport immunity as a shield, expecially against melee tanks, is somehow taken into account.
I play from europe and may the ping be as bad as it can be, the GWF encounters animation of takedown, IBS, fliurish and RS are so **** slow that you must have a 1 second latency to fail dodging them. You see the animation starting, you dodge/ teleport. Unless, as i said, you have a 1 second lag, his encounter will hit your immunity and go on cooldown.
And i didn't write "all you can do is run away". I actually explained how to effectively kite a GWF, be it swordmaster or iron vanguard. And send his encounters on cooldown. If you want to be able to beat a GWF without kiting him and dodging, or if you don't use your dodge immunity moves, what are we talking about? You're never going to win against a GWF with a bit of experience and you will complain forever about them being OP.
If the latency for you is that bad, then blame the latency/ your connection, and not the balance of the game. This is a action mmo, combat is made of dodges, mobility and aiming. If lag is messing them up for you, you can't really blame a specific class.
There's a reason if any class have a move to 100% avoid damage (dodge immunity or block), and the GWF doesn't have it, but instead have a short unstoppable activating after taking damage. It's cause you've to actually use those moves to nullify the Attacks coming at you.
Using dodge immunity on a GWF encounters is the tactic. It's the reason you have the said immunity moves and GWF encounters have SLOW animations.
And the reason GWFs have unstoppable available AFTER taking damage, and gap closing moves, is cause they have 0 ways to avoid damage.
You have them, instead. Use them.
I use to play with a ping of 160-230 that is a 0,15-0.2s latency and usually is not enough to dodge a frontline sourge. What about you? You play a GWF, you don't care about latency because either you're already on unstoppable or you can activate it AFTER you fall under CC effect (unless it's a prone, that is why GF is still the class that still have the best chances against a GWF).
Other action mmorpgs like dcuo handle those kind of data client side, not server side.
But be it clear, I'm not complaining.
MMORPG are all about flavour of the month. I still remember when DC was god on earth thanks to the double astral and then the TR best/crazy DPS basically oneshotting everything in PvP, and then GF being top DPS before the shard got crazy buffed and the CWs got the edge.
Now GWF are king both in pvp and pve. Just don't try to make it like it's not.
Every half decent gwf will just spam threatening rush till ur out of dodges and kill u right after just sayin
.
Lets be a bit honest even if the oppionions are divided.
Now that gwf got charge+fronline the upper hand against cw in particular but also tr hr to some extent are massive.
I myself have 15kgs but only(just saying not bis gear even if its high enough) r7 ench and GV and i have yet to face a cw(knowing that they are out there) that can survive the onslught of spamming charge wait for him to port ( he simple must he can not surive standing close to me) and use frontline+charge+takedown+ibs/restoring.
If he survives that and use push or whatever cc i still have artifact, potion+unstop and will use sprint chain press charge until am up with him again forcing him to port and rince and repeat.
Once you fought a couple of 100 cws you know what they can do and not and how to time your ccs against their ports.
That you can abuse our charge ability and spam it 3 times in a row for massive burst dam isent making it easer for others.
I know am not in par with the best of gwfs and the way i rule pug pvps i only imagen what the very best of the best of gwfs can do against pugs.
If you remove the charge ability gwfs are still strong but this ability to close the gap to other classes at the same time doing serious dam with it tips the balance to gwfs advantage in a not so fair way imho.
Threatening Rush should be removed from GWF's arsenal. If they need a way to make them viable for PvE tanking (through applying marks on targets), it's better to give it in one of their other at-wills. Spammable gap closer in a class with sprint/unstoppable/2 prones and good to insane damage is over the top.
Threatening Rush should be removed from GWF's arsenal. If they need a way to make them viable for PvE tanking (through applying marks on targets), it's better to give it in one of their other at-wills. Spammable gap closer in a class with sprint/unstoppable/2 prones and good to insane damage is over the top.
I thought this was a Thread about how to Fight a GWF in PVP, not QQ'ing.
@ twinkje: i specifically divided the tips between frontline-roar and the other encounters. And specified many times that the very slow and easy to dodge encounters are takedown, flourish, IBS, RS, and any other encounter except those two.
For those 2 encounters i gave some tips too, since they are more difficult to dodge. See my previous posts for those tips, and the OP too.
I was able to dodge frontline from GFs even before module 2. The reason is explained in my previous posts. An enemy constantly moving in circle/ to the side is difficult to get with roar and frontline cause these powers have a small gap between the moment you cast them, and the actual hit. And they hit in almost a straight line/ area ahead of the caster.
Also: i don't get it, i read complaints about how fast a GWF can close the gap now, yet the problem is frontline, which is a 30' range power that does not really need for the gap to be fully closed?
Pre-module 2 a GWF got roar. Frontline makes more damage than roar, but the cooldown is almost the double.
Threat rush, as i explained, may close the gap fast but that does not guarantee that the encounters will hit.
As i said, GWFs have no way to negate damage, like ALL the other classes. After taking damage they can go immune to cc and with a very high DR (but they still take damage) for a few seconds.
Module 2 introduced wishperknife (more ranged damage for permastealth TRs), fixed some damage for CWs that now hurt even more (powers that were not working properly with ArP, now do so) and, more of all ,introduced HRs. HRs can hurt a lot from the distance and root you where you are, preventing you from reaching them. And rooting goes through unstoppable.
Lag problems have nothing to do with balance. You're facing a class that can be very tanky and use the damage taken to be "unstoppable" for few seconds. Said class can also close distance gaps very fast.
But this class also have ZERO ways to avoid taking damage and need the target to go prone to land his best encounter (IBS) or any other encounter.
On the other side, you can hit him 100%, cc him, hit him from far and negate his encounters with immune teleport. You can't because of lag? Then that's a lag issue. And you can't blame balance if lag gives you problems in playing an action game.
Also, if the problem is frontline, then why per-module 2 roar was not a problem? It's still a ranged skill, not easier to dodge than frontline.
You've ways to counter frontline and roar, and a GWF reaching you with threat rush still needs to land his encounters, or all he can do is threat rush you while you nuke him with your encounters and at-wills.
However, the tips are there. Wanna try them, don't wanna try them, it's up to you.
@ twinkje: i specifically divided the tips between frontline-roar and the other encounters. And specified many times that the very slow and easy to dodge encounters are takedown, flourish, IBS, RS, and any other encounter except those two.
For those 2 encounters i gave some tips too, since they are more difficult to dodge. See my previous posts for those tips, and the OP too.
I was able to dodge frontline from GFs even before module 2. The reason is explained in my previous posts. An enemy constantly moving in circle/ to the side is difficult to get with roar and frontline cause these powers have a small gap between the moment you cast them, and the actual hit. And they hit in almost a straight line/ area ahead of the caster.
Also: i don't get it, i read complaints about how fast a GWF can close the gap now, yet the problem is frontline, which is a 30' range power that does not really need for the gap to be fully closed?
Pre-module 2 a GWF got roar. Frontline makes more damage than roar, but the cooldown is almost the double.
Threat rush, as i explained, may close the gap fast but that does not guarantee that the encounters will hit.
As i said, GWFs have no way to negate damage, like ALL the other classes. After taking damage they can go immune to cc and with a very high DR (but they still take damage) for a few seconds.
Module 2 introduced wishperknife (more ranged damage for permastealth TRs), fixed some damage for CWs that now hurt even more (powers that were not working properly with ArP, now do so) and, more of all ,introduced HRs. HRs can hurt a lot from the distance and root you where you are, preventing you from reaching them. And rooting goes through unstoppable.
Lag problems have nothing to do with balance. You're facing a class that can be very tanky and use the damage taken to be "unstoppable" for few seconds. Said class can also close distance gaps very fast.
But this class also have ZERO ways to avoid taking damage and need the target to go prone to land his best encounter (IBS) or any other encounter.
On the other side, you can hit him 100%, cc him, hit him from far and negate his encounters with immune teleport. You can't because of lag? Then that's a lag issue. And you can't blame balance if lag gives you problems in playing an action game.
Also, if the problem is frontline, then why per-module 2 roar was not a problem? It's still a ranged skill, not easier to dodge than frontline.
You've ways to counter frontline and roar, and a GWF reaching you with threat rush still needs to land his encounters, or all he can do is threat rush you while you nuke him with your encounters and at-wills.
However, the tips are there. Wanna try them, don't wanna try them, it's up to you.
You simply don't want to properly read/understand what's written.
You can't consider separately Frontline Surge and Threatening Rush because those are what it makes the difference between now and then, before module 2.
I really had very few issues with GWF before because even if they already had Roar they could barely close the gap and CC lock me, actually it never happened. And Frontline Surge is somewhat better than Roar because, from my understanding, its prone is longer than the Roar one (but it may be just me).
But Threatening Rush is better than that because you can even use it to better position yourself. Running in circle doesn't help because I'm not getting far enough to get out of reach, running away in straight line is tremendously hazardous because I'm exposing myself against your Frontline Surge/Roar. I still can dodge roll but it's just a matter of luck if it will coincide with your Frontline Sourge/Roar or not and yet you can still sprint and get close enough to spam you Threatening Rush while a rough can basically only wait for ITC or run away in stealth (unless you Ctrl lock him and have some sprint left).
As I already told you, the latency issue (that's not lag, 160-230ms ping is perfectly fine) is simply something that is in the game and your tips are null and void under some circumstances, get over it. Developers had the chance to mitigate that, they simply made it different choices, probably for safety reasons.
The fact that you, as a GWF, as I already explained, aren't affected that much doesn't make your tips any more useful.
Anyway I'm done with the discussion. Some mod even moved it here when, actually, it could have had better visibility on the gameplay section; now it's just buried down.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
An enemy constantly moving in circle/ to the side is difficult to get with roar and frontline cause these powers have a small gap between the moment you cast them, and the actual hit. And they hit in almost a straight line/ area ahead of the caster.
No they aren't. If an enemy is moving in a predictable pattern around me they're gonna get stunned/proned. Just lead the target.
I really had very few issues with GWF before because even if they already had Roar they could barely close the gap and CC lock me, actually it never happened.
So you basically are saying that it was ok when they had close to no chance to get you, but now that they can, it's unecceptable.
I've come across TRs that can make smooth transitions between ITC--stealth--dodge roll immunity, leaving very, very small Windows to just hit them.
Roar roots you, and EVERY GWF i've seen using it could roar-->little sprint---> takedown. Frontline does the same. Prone is longer but cooldown is almost double too (19 seconds) compared to roar. Also, it requires double tap to execute.
Any experienced GWF usually slot bravery to run faster and close the gap faster.
Threat rush helps a lot cause it allows us to save stamina and close the gap more easily. But when it comes to actually HIT the target with our encounters, i see no difference with module 1. It's not easier to hit with frontline than with roar.
If a GWF now can get in range to hit you, while before they couldn't do it (as you wrote) then it seems only fair to me. We get a chance to hit you, you learn to dodge.
Stil lit surprises me that someone talking about balance then says it was ok when the enemy got close to no chance to even hit him.
No they aren't. If an enemy is moving in a predictable pattern around me they're gonna get stunned/proned. Just lead the target.
Then they don't have to move in a predictable pattern. When i say "moving in circle/ to the side" it's needless to say that you don't have to do it in a predictable way. Any strategy requires for you to out-think your enemy.
Same goes for a GWF using frontline Always in the same way. If i come at you, then stop at 30' and frontline, you will Always dodge it cause you will know what i will do.
Comments
Since I cannot run away any more in between one stealth phase or encounter (be it a smoke bomb/dazing strike/shadow strike/impossible to catch) I make it a pure dps race (I'm using path of the blade right now just to counter their exploits with another exploited power).
Sometimes I win sometimes I don't. Problem is there's very little to none skill involved since crits and deflects play such a big role. I don't even dodge roll away, European ping is so bad compared to the US one that it's useless anyway.
Anyway at least now destroyer GWFs can actually kill a rogue. I'd only like they know, it's not a matter of "skill"
One of the main reason pvp becomes a more or less pure luck based system. The ping is so bad that you have to guess what other players are about to do instead of acting based on what they do. Red circles hitting you miles away couse they already hit before you moved out 2 sec ago ......
As i play gwf it dont effect me as badly as tr cw it must be hell for them out there trying to time things.....
Threatening Rush is only good on a plain ground. My GWF starts twitching like a crack addict in a spot whenever there's a little bump or elevation difference between me and my target. So, run to a higher ground and see the GWFs do the zombie dance.
I'll try to lure the GWF away from the flag then, thank you for the hint. Really appreciated.
I'd only hope this won't be the one and only since what the OP wrote seems pretty obvious to me (I'm not a skilled/expert PvPer, I just think they are common sense suggestions) and, like I said before, most of the time is simply unpractical due to technical issues (i.e. latency).
1) HR can own me with Aimed shot.
2) DC/PVP specced CW can own me with me barely denting their health pool by keeping apropriate distances - Forgemaster's Flame for example in an apropriately specced DC is insane protection
3) Regn is totally negated by DoT Damage - slpt something that will stack a DoT and we're even. Slot something that also wrecks Defence and you are a sentinel killer, even with Unstoppable
4) My Sprint is not infinate - the new builds can close gaps better it's true, but this is needed as there arenow ranged Rogues, to add into the mix with DCs, HRs and CWs.
5) none of the new skills are any more effective on the GWF than they were on the GF before the patch - we all feared a well specced and well geared skilled GF on a point - the same rules apply, only unstoppable reduced damage and doesn't negate it like shield block does - therefore we can still take damage.
6) teamwork is the key - focus fire on any class shreds them, even GWFs. An unco-ordinated team is mostly the reason for all the complaints.
GWF is fun in PvP, but I don't think there is an imbalance, several of my friends say the same for the classes they play that aren't GWF.
On a side note how come no-one complains about GF using 3 encounters and hitting for 30k+ damage? Highest I've personally seen so far was 48k on 3 hit powers, no daily.
Then you do bull's charge, threatening rush, frontline surge, you get the OMG high dmg output.
It was a thing for a while, then the meta moved on.
Because they cannot go unstoppable after you root them in place and close on you, basically. With a GWF is a given fact that after you damage them they will go red and come after you. With a GF, as a ranged char it's simple: if you're good, you can keep GF at range and in the end you might kill him. If you not so good, they will close on you and you pay the price.
Seems quite balanced to me.
The worst thing I can see on a node (as a gwf) is a shard (of avalanche) and some unseen cw in the shadows with her finger on the detonate button. CW's: stealing time>shard>chill strike. Better yet: singularity>shard>stealing time>chill strike. Burst>cc>burst>burst>cc. All CW really needs is "improved invisibility" as a power and it would be just about even in pvp with the other classes.
But ya, burst damage. DPS just heals gwf's. Repulse is nasty also. HR's can be a nightmare when they are GOOD hr's and can anger you enough to take your attention off a node to focus on them. HR's cornered and cc'd somewhere (front line surge ftw) are dead.
So vs GWF: CW- ranged burst, don't even try to get close to the gwf. HR- cozy up in a concealed perch and snipe away, don't try to get close. GF-stand your ground, time the breaking of your guard with an anvil of doom cd and hit it. Lunging strike>front line surge>anvil of doom and you will 3 shot many a gwf. GWF- just slug it out. TR- you know what to do. DC- everything you got that heals party when target gets hit, keep that on gwf, heal your party. Few things are more annoying for my lvl 40 6k gs gwf with plaguefire and tranquil than trying to force an under geared, not so skilled, gf off a node with a &^%$ cleric constantly healing it. I yell at my pc "anvil of doom me, front line surge me, villains menace me....knee break....so much" but they just stand there until their guard breaks and then run around the node. So I focus the cleric :P
So ya,
1. gwfs are currently op for pvp which is good because better to boost class b than nerf class a.
2. gwfs can be adequately countered, often nullified.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Mmmm...put that way it sounds like that if you're good, there's nothing the GF can do. In my opinion, for something to be balanced both sides must have weapons to fight each Others. Nit a "if he makes a mistake, i can win". That's not balance. It's balanced if you can play it good, but i can play it better or MAKE you fail.
From my point of view, right now a CW have all the weapons to fight a GWF.
CW: very high damage, lots of cc that must be used wisely, pushback and teleport immunity. Plus very high AP generation and a very powerful daily (ice knife). Now, the GWF can go unstoppable and threat rush on you. What can you do? First: before he's able to "get red", deal as much spike damage as you can and repel. He will run over you, may be sprint and threat rush. Now, he can reach you in between your encounters cooldown. Unstoppable just makes his at-wills go faster, the only problem is you can't cc him now. Threat rush is mainly a gap-closer for a GWF. Once he reach you, he still has to unload his encounters on you. Now, you want to tell me you can't time your teleport to match his slow takedown animation? To hit you, quite simply, a GWF has to prone you first. Else, IBS is NEVER going to land unless you purposely stand there to get it.
You just have to wait for his animations to start before teleporting. If you're teleporting right when he touch you with threat rush, it's your fault.
Teleport immune has a use. It's just that 99% of CWs use it wrong, aka they teleport when you reach them instead of teleporting when they see the SLOW encounter animation starting.
If you use it correctly, it's easy to send 90% of GWF encounters on cooldown. Aka, he can hit you with at-wills while you can hit him with your encounters.
Only problematic encounters are:
Roar
Frontline
cause they are ranged. BUT they have also a gap (animation for roar, double tap for frontline) you can use to avoid them. If you know the GWF uses frontline or roar (since you're ranged, just look at him fighting other team mates) you are 99% sure he will unload them as soon as he can. Move in circle, it's the best way to avoid the hit.
It's a matter of skills. You can immune dodge his encounters, he can catch up on you and try to land them. If you can outhink him and predict when he will roar or frontline, you win. If he can fool you and make you waste your teleports, he wins.
But you have the weapons to avoid his Attacks. Reaching you is not enough enough, unless you waste your teleports.
Same goes for HRs and TRs and DCs. You all have immune dodges. And the GWF have slow encounter animations. Players just need to stop complaining and learn how to dodge and send the GWF encounters on cooldown.
GFs have block. Same thing. Learn how to use it. Guard up against encounters, guard down against at wills, expecially if the GWF is in unstoppable. Lock on him to avoid being circled.
I mean, from my point of view any class have weapons to fight my unstoppable, my sprint and my threat rush. It's just that 90% of the times i see them using their weapons TERRIBLY wrong.
If i unload my enounters on a ITC TR, or on a blocking GF, i can't complain and say it's unfair. I'm just doing it wrong. Same goes for everything else.
I don't know how else to explain this stuff.
Asking for a system where you've a guaranteed win if YOU play it well, is just not balanced.
It's balanced if even if you play it well, i can play it better.
GWF vs CW is just a fight of minds. He must find a way to trick you and land his encounters when he reaches you, you have to watch him closely and use your teleport immunity to nullify his encounters when he tries to use them.
A GWF caould be able to fly or teleport to you, but if he can't land his SLOW, let me repeat it SLOW, encounters, it's useless. And to avoid him Landing his SLOW encounters, you've to time your immunity dodges with his encounters animation. Which, i may say, are SLOW.
Hope i've repeated this stuff enough to make 1% of the Readers understand it. Stop focusing on how fast a GWF can get to you, and start focusing on how SLOW he is when he tries to ACTUALLY hit you with his encounters.
I play from europe and may the ping be as bad as it can be, the GWF encounters animation of takedown, IBS, fliurish and RS are so **** slow that you must have a 1 second latency to fail dodging them. You see the animation starting, you dodge/ teleport. Unless, as i said, you have a 1 second lag, his encounter will hit your immunity and go on cooldown.
And i didn't write "all you can do is run away". I actually explained how to effectively kite a GWF, be it swordmaster or iron vanguard. And send his encounters on cooldown. If you want to be able to beat a GWF without kiting him and dodging, or if you don't use your dodge immunity moves, what are we talking about? You're never going to win against a GWF with a bit of experience and you will complain forever about them being OP.
If the latency for you is that bad, then blame the latency/ your connection, and not the balance of the game. This is a action mmo, combat is made of dodges, mobility and aiming. If lag is messing them up for you, you can't really blame a specific class.
There's a reason if any class have a move to 100% avoid damage (dodge immunity or block), and the GWF doesn't have it, but instead have a short unstoppable activating after taking damage. It's cause you've to actually use those moves to nullify the Attacks coming at you.
Using dodge immunity on a GWF encounters is the tactic. It's the reason you have the said immunity moves and GWF encounters have SLOW animations.
And the reason GWFs have unstoppable available AFTER taking damage, and gap closing moves, is cause they have 0 ways to avoid damage.
You have them, instead. Use them.
Whatever that GWF encounter is that leaves you prone, I simply can't dodge that one.
Edit: Do you play with the sound off? Perhaps it is because I tend to respond better to aural stimuli rather than visual stimuli.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
I used roar and frontline. Not because they're the best combo, but because it's annoying. Having regularly been on the receiving side, I know just how annoying FS and roar are.
roar, frontline and IBS/Restoring strike/takedown depending on how trollish I feel.
CW's that take my GWF out typically do so via massive burst damage(as an example, RoE, CoI, Chill Strike, Icy Rays->My soulforge revive->Ice Knife) or via consistent high damage + repel until help arrives.
I'll actually postpone my comments until Gannicus might post his CW vs GWF video, if he wants to
Usually however, GWFs have innate survivability AND enough burst damage to kill CWs, while CWs have to go through a lot of trouble gearing up and give up much of their damage only to be able to survive bad ping and inevitable mistakes in the heat of battle.
It is just as unfair as a CW vs GF battle, which if both are good, and there's enough space for the CW, will end up badly for the GF, and if there's not enough space, will end up badly for the CW.
As for balance, there's none in this game, unless you fight PM vs PM with all geared and with same/agreed upon comps.
Mmm..no, they ARE that slow. I made a specific explanation about frontline surge, which is what you call "that prone skill". That one, and Roar, are the 2 ranged moves that can be more difficult to dodge. The first one we got from GFs after module 2 release, is a double tap power (you've to press the button twice) that hits 3 targets in a straight AoE area ahead of the user. Roar hits in a cone-shaped area in front of the user. As i explained before, as a ranged class, a CW can stay back at the start of the match ,and watch what the GWF does. If he uses Roar/ Frontline on someone, you know he is going to use them on you too. Range of both is 30'. 99% of the times a GWF will pop them as soon as possible. AKA: when you see him in range, start moving. Never stop moving. Both powers require for the GWF to stand still, and both have a small delay time. The GWF usually stops and then hit. If you see him stopping at a rough 30' distance from you, and you saw him using those powers, he will most likely use them to root/ prone you. Also: since the GWF has to stand still while using his encounters, if you keep moving you make it more difficult for him to aim at you.
Also, note that these 2 powers have downsides too. Frontline is a 19 seconds CD power. Roar does close to no damage, meaning the GWF loses almost 1/3 of his damage to be able to root the target from far.
Apart from roar and frontline, all the other encounters are very, very slow. Takedown is like 1 second long animation, with the GWF raising the weapon above his head and then smashing it down. You see him raising the weapon, you teleport. Same goes for IBS, whic is even slower, to the point that even a GWF can sprint away in time if you try to use it as the first power on a non-proned target. Flourish is very slow too. Slower than takedown. Restoring strike is may be just a bit faster than takedown.
If you ask me, if CW vs GF is situational, then it's balanced. Both have different strenghts, and both can take advantage of different situations/ settings. Must have a bit of strategy too when fighting.
I understand the ping issue, but it's, as i said, a ping issue, not a balance issue. I've fought some very good CWs that were able to wait for me to start my encounter to teleport. You get cc'ed/ DPS'd and repelled, then you reach your target. Now, i have to prone him. The strong CWs i fought never teleported right away when i reached them. They stood there, kept hitting me and the moment i started my takedown animation they teleported away. Same with flourish. Roar and frontline are harder to predict, but it's not impossible to make it more difficult to use them. If you slot mobility and keep moving in circle, it's not easy to hit you. Reason is: when the GWF press the button to use roar, there's a deleay (animation) between the imput and the hit. During that time, a moving target can be elsewhere/ out of the AoE area of the power. Same goes for frontline. It requires a double tap and can be predicted. And if you dodge it, it's 19 seconds cooldown.
Is it guaranteed? No. it's easy if a GWF is not good and Always use the same pattern: run at you, stop at 30', roar / frontline. You can easily predict that.
But a good GWF could, for example, stop and do nothing to trick you. You will be on the edge and teleport as soon as he stops. But what if he does not use the power? Teleport wasted.
On the other side, when i reach you, i've to ask myself: what will he do? Teleport now? Wait for my move? if i fail, my prone power goes on cooldown and good luck Landing a IBS on a moving target.
CWs/ TRs, most of the time, think about their dodges/ teleports just as a way to gain distance. I see them as a shield, thanks to their immunity effect.
But that's just my point of view.
I used to suck against permastealth TRs. Learned to out-think them. Now i don't have much problems facing them little <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
The game takes into account the "action" part of combat. Which means that a part of the balance takes into account the fact that you have to dodge, aim and move a lot.
So, i think that CWs using their teleport immunity as a shield, expecially against melee tanks, is somehow taken into account.
I use to play with a ping of 160-230 that is a 0,15-0.2s latency and usually is not enough to dodge a frontline sourge. What about you? You play a GWF, you don't care about latency because either you're already on unstoppable or you can activate it AFTER you fall under CC effect (unless it's a prone, that is why GF is still the class that still have the best chances against a GWF).
Other action mmorpgs like dcuo handle those kind of data client side, not server side.
But be it clear, I'm not complaining.
MMORPG are all about flavour of the month. I still remember when DC was god on earth thanks to the double astral and then the TR best/crazy DPS basically oneshotting everything in PvP, and then GF being top DPS before the shard got crazy buffed and the CWs got the edge.
Now GWF are king both in pvp and pve. Just don't try to make it like it's not.
Lets be a bit honest even if the oppionions are divided.
Now that gwf got charge+fronline the upper hand against cw in particular but also tr hr to some extent are massive.
I myself have 15kgs but only(just saying not bis gear even if its high enough) r7 ench and GV and i have yet to face a cw(knowing that they are out there) that can survive the onslught of spamming charge wait for him to port ( he simple must he can not surive standing close to me) and use frontline+charge+takedown+ibs/restoring.
If he survives that and use push or whatever cc i still have artifact, potion+unstop and will use sprint chain press charge until am up with him again forcing him to port and rince and repeat.
Once you fought a couple of 100 cws you know what they can do and not and how to time your ccs against their ports.
That you can abuse our charge ability and spam it 3 times in a row for massive burst dam isent making it easer for others.
I know am not in par with the best of gwfs and the way i rule pug pvps i only imagen what the very best of the best of gwfs can do against pugs.
If you remove the charge ability gwfs are still strong but this ability to close the gap to other classes at the same time doing serious dam with it tips the balance to gwfs advantage in a not so fair way imho.
I thought this was a Thread about how to Fight a GWF in PVP, not QQ'ing.
For those 2 encounters i gave some tips too, since they are more difficult to dodge. See my previous posts for those tips, and the OP too.
I was able to dodge frontline from GFs even before module 2. The reason is explained in my previous posts. An enemy constantly moving in circle/ to the side is difficult to get with roar and frontline cause these powers have a small gap between the moment you cast them, and the actual hit. And they hit in almost a straight line/ area ahead of the caster.
Also: i don't get it, i read complaints about how fast a GWF can close the gap now, yet the problem is frontline, which is a 30' range power that does not really need for the gap to be fully closed?
Pre-module 2 a GWF got roar. Frontline makes more damage than roar, but the cooldown is almost the double.
Threat rush, as i explained, may close the gap fast but that does not guarantee that the encounters will hit.
As i said, GWFs have no way to negate damage, like ALL the other classes. After taking damage they can go immune to cc and with a very high DR (but they still take damage) for a few seconds.
Module 2 introduced wishperknife (more ranged damage for permastealth TRs), fixed some damage for CWs that now hurt even more (powers that were not working properly with ArP, now do so) and, more of all ,introduced HRs. HRs can hurt a lot from the distance and root you where you are, preventing you from reaching them. And rooting goes through unstoppable.
Lag problems have nothing to do with balance. You're facing a class that can be very tanky and use the damage taken to be "unstoppable" for few seconds. Said class can also close distance gaps very fast.
But this class also have ZERO ways to avoid taking damage and need the target to go prone to land his best encounter (IBS) or any other encounter.
On the other side, you can hit him 100%, cc him, hit him from far and negate his encounters with immune teleport. You can't because of lag? Then that's a lag issue. And you can't blame balance if lag gives you problems in playing an action game.
Also, if the problem is frontline, then why per-module 2 roar was not a problem? It's still a ranged skill, not easier to dodge than frontline.
You've ways to counter frontline and roar, and a GWF reaching you with threat rush still needs to land his encounters, or all he can do is threat rush you while you nuke him with your encounters and at-wills.
However, the tips are there. Wanna try them, don't wanna try them, it's up to you.
You simply don't want to properly read/understand what's written.
You can't consider separately Frontline Surge and Threatening Rush because those are what it makes the difference between now and then, before module 2.
I really had very few issues with GWF before because even if they already had Roar they could barely close the gap and CC lock me, actually it never happened. And Frontline Surge is somewhat better than Roar because, from my understanding, its prone is longer than the Roar one (but it may be just me).
But Threatening Rush is better than that because you can even use it to better position yourself. Running in circle doesn't help because I'm not getting far enough to get out of reach, running away in straight line is tremendously hazardous because I'm exposing myself against your Frontline Surge/Roar. I still can dodge roll but it's just a matter of luck if it will coincide with your Frontline Sourge/Roar or not and yet you can still sprint and get close enough to spam you Threatening Rush while a rough can basically only wait for ITC or run away in stealth (unless you Ctrl lock him and have some sprint left).
As I already told you, the latency issue (that's not lag, 160-230ms ping is perfectly fine) is simply something that is in the game and your tips are null and void under some circumstances, get over it. Developers had the chance to mitigate that, they simply made it different choices, probably for safety reasons.
The fact that you, as a GWF, as I already explained, aren't affected that much doesn't make your tips any more useful.
Anyway I'm done with the discussion. Some mod even moved it here when, actually, it could have had better visibility on the gameplay section; now it's just buried down.
No they aren't. If an enemy is moving in a predictable pattern around me they're gonna get stunned/proned. Just lead the target.
So you basically are saying that it was ok when they had close to no chance to get you, but now that they can, it's unecceptable.
I've come across TRs that can make smooth transitions between ITC--stealth--dodge roll immunity, leaving very, very small Windows to just hit them.
Roar roots you, and EVERY GWF i've seen using it could roar-->little sprint---> takedown. Frontline does the same. Prone is longer but cooldown is almost double too (19 seconds) compared to roar. Also, it requires double tap to execute.
Any experienced GWF usually slot bravery to run faster and close the gap faster.
Threat rush helps a lot cause it allows us to save stamina and close the gap more easily. But when it comes to actually HIT the target with our encounters, i see no difference with module 1. It's not easier to hit with frontline than with roar.
If a GWF now can get in range to hit you, while before they couldn't do it (as you wrote) then it seems only fair to me. We get a chance to hit you, you learn to dodge.
Stil lit surprises me that someone talking about balance then says it was ok when the enemy got close to no chance to even hit him.
Lol...
Then they don't have to move in a predictable pattern. When i say "moving in circle/ to the side" it's needless to say that you don't have to do it in a predictable way. Any strategy requires for you to out-think your enemy.
Same goes for a GWF using frontline Always in the same way. If i come at you, then stop at 30' and frontline, you will Always dodge it cause you will know what i will do.