Too much Armor Pen, please fix

borken69

There is way, way too much Armor Pen available to HRs right now. I'm sitting on nearly 3k with the Royal Guard set and Dread Legion weapons alone. Please change either the armor or weapon 2 set bonus to power so we can itemize for PvE a little better. It's very disappointing to see wasted stats on top gear.

voltomey

Snip i am just gonna delete all my comments because this is silly TBH

borken69

I very clearly stated this was for PvE. When I upgrade to the crafted Dread Legion bow (haven't hit 20 weaponsmithing yet) then I'll be down to ~2400 ArP. I'm taking the Royal Guard set because I like the 4 piece bonus. We also get resistance ignored as a strength bonus, so if I'm wearing the armor/weapons I want, I will ALWAYS be overcapped on ArP in PvE without even trying. It's silly that I'm now actively avoiding ArP on jewellery. I don't need your guide linking me armor stats, I know what's available, how to build and what I want.

obsidiancran3

Please don't fix as its not broken.

I love having the ability to compltely ignore ArP off armor and weapons and thus focus on the other stats to achieve the build I want.

borken69

obsidiancran3 wrote: »

Please don't fix as its not broken.

I love having the ability to compltely ignore ArP off armor and weapons and thus focus on the other stats to achieve the build I want.

I didn't say it's broken and I'm fine with capping for PvE off armor and weapons too. My problem is that we're overcapped and can't do anything about it. The only weapons with a set bonus that don't have ArP on them are the crafted ones, so those are really the only viable T2.5 weapons for me. If strength didn't give resistance ignored, this wouldn't be an issue.

voltomey

Deleted and will not be posting any more here

borken69

voltomey wrote: »

I Clearly gave you a PvE answer But let me better state it sense trying to be nice doesn't work.This class has a easy time stacking Power and Crit just as easily as you can stack armor pen hell even are feats make stacking offensive stats such as recovery Power and crit redundant and in my honest opinion its better to build your Jewels for defense adding Regen Deflection Life steal and HP. But If it wasn't already blatantly obvious that are offensive stat caps take less priority then are defensive one then i dont know what to say. Any way i am sorry that you don't like having a little more armor pen then you need thats not my problem thats a personal problem

Literally the first line in your response described how great more ArP is for PvP. And I'm very aware of how easy it is to stack the other offensive stats or take defensive ones as well. The point, which clearly escapes you, is that if you're trying to min/max a HR build, you are forced to:

a) Have way too much ArP
b) Take gear with a set bonus you don't want

Neither of those is a good option, since a good set bonus obviously trumps any stat distribution. Every other stat hits DR, so while overstacking it isn't necessarily helpful, it isn't USELESS. Overstacking ArP is USELESS. That's the issue here.

obsidiancran3

borken69 wrote: »

I didn't say it's broken and I'm fine with capping for PvE off armor and weapons too. My problem is that we're overcapped and can't do anything about it. The only weapons with a set bonus that don't have ArP on them are the crafted ones, so those are really the only viable T2.5 weapons for me. If strength didn't give resistance ignored, this wouldn't be an issue.

Considering the set bonus is rendered irrelevant by having Royal Guard or Dread Legion this frees you up to choose different things to suit what you are doing with your build. I don't even have a t1 set and ArP is capped for me, which is great for me. Its my only character with ArP capped and compared to the hoops I'm jumping through to get my other toons capped I appreciate this change.

So yes I understand you want it fixed, and I very much get why, but I similarly don't want it fixed.

voltomey

Deleted and will not be posting any more was a waste total waste of my time.

borken69

voltomey wrote: »

Hardly any of the armor set bonuses for this class even warrant having a full set thanks to feats alone that do a better job at it and atm forest storm step makes having royal guards set bonus kinda redundant/useless also the only set bonus i might even consider having a full set is grand warden or one of the pvp sets regen bonus.

If you don't like having more Armor pen then you need that's fine but again that's your personal problem not all of us see this as a problem its not like you're wasting sockets on it like i have to do on my other toons. Hell artifacts and Pet bonuses inflate your stats so much now its not even funny who cares about a little armor pen i know its a stat i wish i could stack to this degree on my CW i have to jump through hoops to make it happen on him.

If you aren't interested in min/maxing that's totally fine, build your HR however you want. I don't go into your threads and tell you your problems are stupid. I'm asking for a change that does nothing but make strength better instead of wasting one of its bonuses.

xtraordinary91

borken69 wrote: »

If you aren't interested in min/maxing that's totally fine, build your HR however you want. I don't go into your threads and tell you your problems are stupid. I'm asking for a change that does nothing but make strength better instead of wasting one of its bonuses.

My simple response to you is to take your points that you slotted into Str and place them elsewhere. There are numerous opportunities for where this would suit you depending on what you are specced as.

Dex I will assume you have already maxed as you mentioned PvE. I will also assume you are going ranged as that will far out strip melee in terms of dps once storm step is fixed. That means your points are not going into Wis for the extra crit chance - due to the feat that increases crit chance by 5% every non crit.

That leaves you with Charisma. For Pve - Slotting Aspect of the pack to automatically grant a 10% bonus damage to all party members is just nice. And then speccing to increase that bonus for youself only makes sense.

The only thing you lose out on? Some bonus stamina Regen. But with the 25% you gain in the Ranged tree, as well as the 10% you will more than likely pick up from the Sharandar boons, as the other boons are useless for you in pve. That gives you 35% straight off.

I will assume you are not also specced for the base 10% you can gain in the Heroic tree, as you mentioned min maxing. And there are better heroic feats to choose from than that to min max.

borken69

xtraordinary91 wrote: »

My simple response to you is to take your points that you slotted into Str and place them elsewhere. There are numerous opportunities for where this would suit you depending on what you are specced as.

I put 0 points into strength. My starting roll was 13 so I have 16 at 60. That's 6% ArP that doesn't do anything for me.

xtraordinary91

borken69 wrote: »

I put 0 points into strength. My starting roll was 13 so I have 16 at 60. That's 6% ArP that doesn't do anything for me.

Then that, my friend, is purely unfortunate.

For Pve dps I would probably look at one of the other sets instead of Royal Guard - Cannot for the life of me remeber the name, but which ever one has a chance to do extra physical damage on your attacks. That is all dependant on the proc chance of that though...

borken69

xtraordinary91 wrote: »

Then that, my friend, is purely unfortunate.

For Pve dps I would probably look at one of the other sets instead of Royal Guard - Cannot for the life of me remeber the name, but which ever one has a chance to do extra physical damage on your attacks. That is all dependant on the proc chance of that though...

Now we're on the same page . I'm thinking 2/2 Dread Legion and Grand Warden if I can't reconcile 4/4 Royal Guard.

xtraordinary91

That would work.

It does really come down to the proc chance on those gear sets though. If the chance is really high and we can get continual procs of AoEs then the t2 set could well be bis.

However, Myself not being a Pve player anymore in this game (All I do is PvP now)

mutantdemocracy

I'm happy I'm a melee ranger.

I don't have to worry about this, since Gemmed Hunter's Blades +6 are the best blades you can have for melee.

realbo

Not sure why you are complaining about having tons of ArP. It's amazing because that means I can enchant for more Power and Recovery since Crit and ArP are so easy to get as an HR.

borken69

realbo wrote: »

Not sure why you are complaining about having tons of ArP. It's amazing because that means I can enchant for more Power and Recovery since Crit and ArP are so easy to get as an HR.

Because T2 bosses in PvE cap at 24% mitigation, so more than 2500 ArP is useless in PvE. Combined with the mitigation reduction from strength, this is a waste of stats.

chemboy613

Here is the thing though,

I understand your gripe, that it's kinda wasted. Luckily now you have the luxury of slotting power everywhere.

This isn't an uncommon problem though - for example my TR has way, way, way too much crit and I never slotted crit. I'm not here complaining about more crit ^^

Also, for PvE, the times when PvE is actually hard (three fights this game), you don't lose because of DPS. A properly geared ranger does plenty of DPS.

So i would just say, ok now, if I PvP i do great damage to tanks - awesome! in PvE i do great damage to well, everything! Awesome!

And as for set bonus, IMO royal guard is the way to go b/c of the regen. Regen is best stat to have.

Seriously though, complaining about too much armor pen is like complaining about too much bacon or chocolate. I guess i when I gear my HR i will just take my 3k armor pen and smile

borken69

chemboy613 wrote: »

Here is the thing though,

I understand your gripe, that it's kinda wasted. Luckily now you have the luxury of slotting power everywhere.

This isn't an uncommon problem though - for example my TR has way, way, way too much crit and I never slotted crit. I'm not here complaining about more crit ^^

Also, for PvE, the times when PvE is actually hard (three fights this game), you don't lose because of DPS. A properly geared ranger does plenty of DPS.

So i would just say, ok now, if I PvP i do great damage to tanks - awesome! in PvE i do great damage to well, everything! Awesome!

And as for set bonus, IMO royal guard is the way to go b/c of the regen. Regen is best stat to have.

Seriously though, complaining about too much armor pen is like complaining about too much bacon or chocolate. I guess i when I gear my HR i will just take my 3k armor pen and smile

At this point, I'm less concerned with the stats and more perturbed that the community in general doesn't seem to even understand the problem. Overstacking crit on a TR is not the same because even though crit has DR, you're still getting something out of having more crit. Your crit chance still goes up. Overstacking armor pen does literally nothing.

voltomey

borken69 wrote: »

At this point, I'm less concerned with the stats and more perturbed that the community in general doesn't seem to even understand the problem. Overstacking crit on a TR is not the same because even though crit has DR, you're still getting something out of having more crit. Your crit chance still goes up. Overstacking armor pen does literally nothing.

I said i wouldn't waste my time in this matter but i will say that i do understand the extra armor pen is useless after 24% i just don't care i am not being forced to stack it or slots rings for it its just there and when something is just there and not really doing you any harm then why should i care i think the majority of the community just doesn't care they don't have to waste money on dark enchants or even think twice about the stat its just there to be taken advantage of or not. Any way have a good one

ratjam

Same "issue" with full royal set and dread weapons, real problem is that all decent purple jewelry also have armor pen equipped. I've slotted blues all over to boost just crit and power. The bonus set of royal is awesome for an archery build since it makes stacking recovery useless, but that armor pen is a total waste.

gavinruneblade

voltomey wrote: »

I said i wouldn't waste my time in this matter but i will say that i do understand the extra armor pen is useless after 24% i just don't care i am not being forced to stack it or slots rings for it its just there and when something is just there and not really doing you any harm then why should i care i think the majority of the community just doesn't care they don't have to waste money on dark enchants or even think twice about the stat its just there to be taken advantage of or not. Any way have a good one

The thing that the OP is trying to communicate is that it IS absolutely doing harm. You only get so many points of bonus on any given piece of gear. If those points are going somewhere that gives no benefit, it is exactly the same as if that item had lower stats than any other class's equivalent gear.

For example, a common level 60 blue ring gives 300 points of bonus (the better ones give 399 but we'll leave that out for the moment). Might be 100 power, 100 crit and 100 recovery. If you saw one for 100 power, 100 crit and 30 recovery you'd think there was something wrong with it.

Having gear that gives more than 2500 armor penetration is exactly the same as having that ring that only gives 230 points of bonus. You're missing 70 points that could be somewhere else.

In the OP's mind that's not good, and I agree.

To carry the example further, while you can take that 230-point ring and say "I didn't need the extra 70 points of recovery anyway I'm building for power." The fact is that you're still getting gear that's inferior to what a wizard or fighter has access to by 70 points.

What he's asking for is to make the ring "170 power, 100 crit, 30 recovery" so those 70 points aren't lost and so hunter gear is on-par with everyone else.

What the OP seems to be missing, but you seem to be saying, is pick other pieces from the same sets or from different sets and you won't go over on AP. Am I reading you right?

Personally, I think none of the sets should ever have bonuses that exceed a game's built-in caps. That's just poor design. At the same time, if there are other ways to get the set bonus he's chasing and avoid going over, that's a valid workaround.

Edit: fixed typos.

obsidiancran3

So none of you that think its a waste are ever, and I mean GG as well, doing PvP?

We cap ArP and can make it to 30% readily and with effort go beyond that closing in on 40%, I thought GWFs were a problem in PvP...

ratjam

Borken, i've replaced 2 pieces of royal and put grand warden, now armor pen is perfectly balanced and i didn't notice a big differene in cooldowns time. More dps too this way. You should give it a try, have fun.

xtraordinary91

obsidiancran3 wrote: »

So none of you that think its a waste are ever, and I mean GG as well, doing PvP?

We cap ArP and can make it to 30% readily and with effort go beyond that closing in on 40%, I thought GWFs were a problem in PvP...

The amount of ARP we can get on gear is amazing for PvP.

Not so much for PvE which is where the OPs min maxing is coming into play.

arcmoon99

HR specializes in Armor Pen. It would be ludicrous if it wasn't the highest stat in an average HR build.

I noticed that every class pretty much has a set of primary stats:
TRs get Crit, Armor Pen, Deflect
CWs get Recovery and Crit
GWFs get Power, Defense, Regen
GFs get Power and Defense
DCs get Power, Crit, Recovery
HRs get Armor Pen, Crit, and Recovery

voltomey

arcmoon99 wrote: »

HR specializes in Armor Pen. It would be ludicrous if it wasn't the highest stat in an average HR build.

I noticed that every class pretty much has a set of primary stats:
TRs get Crit, Armor Pen, Deflect
CWs get Recovery and Crit
GWFs get Power, Defense, Regen
GFs get Power and Defense
DCs get Power, Crit, Recovery
HRs get Armor Pen, Crit, and Recovery

Recovery is not a stat you should stack on HR until you hit other milestones and it comes in very small amounts on gear except forest lord and forest warden. That said HR's get the Highest amounts of Power Crit and Armor Pen On Most there gear Excluding forest Lord which is a deflection and recovery set. so for HR it should be We get alot of Power Crit Armor Pen

chocobofarmer

I think I became dumber by reading the posts in this thread. Anyway, this overabundance of armor penetration also makes lantern artifact less useful because that gives armor penetration. Royal guard and master predator are my favorite HR armors and both give a lot of armor penetration. Even though I'm sitting on maybe 6-7 of wasted arpen, the 4/4 set benefits outweigh cryptic's lack of common sense.

pridesenvy

I actually agree they shouldnt move all the sets to removed armor pen they should keep a set or two with armor pen bonuses but they do need a set with a power bonus there isnt a single set with that. the dread legion set would be a GREAT choice for a power 2 piece bonus it is a very effective pve set which is where power is most welcome over armor pen. They really did give us more armor pen than any other class and thats fine its what makes HR special but this is a game where building yourself to be something different than the next person who plays your class is supposed to be important we shouldnt all have capped armor pen should we? i personally prefer a power build with around 30-40% crit its more balanced vs classes with low armor and still tops the hell outa the damage boards in dungeons. not nessecarily the best in pvp because GWF and GF can resist a good amount of damage from all my skills but still an aimed shot will take down a GF of equal GS to about 1/2 if i crit which isnt exactly a rare occurance.

chemboy613

you know, i get the thought that over 24% armor pen is somewhat useless in PvE.

That said, by the time you are all geared up (say 14k+) and have these items, the problems in PvE are more about coordination than gear. If you are with a similarly geared team, and they are doing their job, you are not hampering the effectiveness by being overstacked in armorpen. It might not be as efficent as say, moving those ponits to power, because I think with correcting aim, crit is less important to HR, and then recovery is not that important esp. if you use royal gaurd and the cooldown feat in archery, so I stack power in my slots for HR - but power only makes a little difference.

That said - i find on my HR i always want more defensive stats, but keeping balance, so i am using the hrimnir set for now, maybe switch to MC set, or maybe even repulsion rings. I think the damage issues i have will be largely fixed when i craft my bow.

So what's the use of this armor pen? PvP.

A tank GWF or GF can only be really hurt with overstacked armor pen, maybe 3.5k+. If they are pushing 5k def+ defensive feats, then the HR with overstacked ArP can really take them down.

That's why i don't complain about this... it is not optimal for PvE, but you do plenty of damage for anything in PvE, but it makes a big difference in PvP. I think most players here would love to have 3k natural armor pen on just about everything (i know I would).

The only other reasonable option would be crit - but crit DR is harsh and you crit more and more and more if you don't crit, so i don't think it's as important