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Rank 8 Upgrades cost + Lesser Fey upgrade costs - The new System
fuldry
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 20
I remember reading here from a CM that the NEW wonderful system should make upgrading enchants/shards EASIER.
Previous system : to build a rank 8, all it took was a few rank 7s. Now, it's :
- 1 rank 7 to refine
- up to 4 rank 7 to grind RP into this rank 7 (a rank 7 of the same kind is worth 8640 RP), 34 560 RP need to upgrade.
- 1 greater mark of potency (100k AD from the AD shop)
- 1 greater mark another type.
Where exactly is that system cheaper ? or even easier ?
I totally hate this new system, I feel ripped off and cheated by PWE. The previous system was far from perfect, but this is ****. The only improvement we received from this system is the possibility of removing enchants for gold, OK that's a good thing... Apart from that, the rest of the system sucks.
Another example :
Improving a Lesser Fey to next grade :
- 1 Lesser Fey to refine
- 103 680 RP, means 4 lesser fey to grind the RPs
- 1 lesser fey for the upgrade
- TWO greater mark of potency (200k AD from the AS shop)
Total : SIX lesser Fey, 200k AD...
This is just incredibly expensive, this simply does not work.
Fran
Previous system : to build a rank 8, all it took was a few rank 7s. Now, it's :
- 1 rank 7 to refine
- up to 4 rank 7 to grind RP into this rank 7 (a rank 7 of the same kind is worth 8640 RP), 34 560 RP need to upgrade.
- 1 greater mark of potency (100k AD from the AD shop)
- 1 greater mark another type.
Where exactly is that system cheaper ? or even easier ?
I totally hate this new system, I feel ripped off and cheated by PWE. The previous system was far from perfect, but this is ****. The only improvement we received from this system is the possibility of removing enchants for gold, OK that's a good thing... Apart from that, the rest of the system sucks.
Another example :
Improving a Lesser Fey to next grade :
- 1 Lesser Fey to refine
- 103 680 RP, means 4 lesser fey to grind the RPs
- 1 lesser fey for the upgrade
- TWO greater mark of potency (200k AD from the AS shop)
Total : SIX lesser Fey, 200k AD...
This is just incredibly expensive, this simply does not work.
Fran
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Comments
With the new system, you only need 8 enchants of rank 7 to make a rank 10. Under the old system, you'd need 64. To make up for that, they've required the refining points and the Marks of Potency. Also, you can farm Marks of Potency in dungeons any time.
In short, it's not the best system, but it's not terrible once you learn how it works. It's designed to be a process to make higher level enchants, (mostly to deter gold sellers) but still doable for casual players.
For one, I think the fact that we need a same potency double of the Enchantment/Rune to even be able to rank up is severely offputting.
I can grind. I can pay the AD for the marks. But I'd really not have to level up a second Rank 7 Dark Enchant to be able to upgrade my Rank 7 Dark Enchantment to Rank 8 in the first place. I thought the new system was made to avoid exactly that kind of annoyance.
No you can't farm any marks reliably, anywhere, especially blue ones. Trust me, I know... at least 5 dungeon runs/day since Shadowmantle. They rarely drop, bosses or nodes or chests.
Even more frustrating, you will only have a 20% chance at a boss drop mark, since others want it too of course.
In the end, you will end up buying them, if you don't want to wait for months.
When you consider,
- the source of the item(s)
- the cost of the item(s)
- the amount of RP required to upgrade
Then there's the usual additions as above
So now comparing 64 lv7runes in old system to 8 lv7 runes in new system is unreasonable because now we need less runes but alot of RP points and more stuff like marks.
The problem with using "junk" enchants for RP is that unless you know which enchants you will be using in your T2 gear it can end up wasting a lot of time/reagents/enchants/ and possibly ADs lvling up enchants that you find later to be unneeded.
As far as adding the need for reagants to make up for needing less enchants to make higher lvl enchants. Doesn't that kind of make the whole system pointless? replacing the need for more enchants with reagents? Personally, and I really hate to say this but its really starting to feel like the main reason they made this new refining system was simply to add an AD sink into the process since they had to know not everyone can farm epic dungeons enough to get the marks needed to make the mid level enchants that would in turn be needed to make high level enchants.
Not to mention that BS they gave us about making the new system because no one was using the old system until they had epic gear. Well of course no one used it until they got epic gear. Considering the fact that most players hit lvl60 in a week and change gear so often, whats the point of slotting? But if this truly was a reason then why did they make no effort to fix all the other things that hardly anyone uses like mount upgrading and companion upgrading or pretty much anything else that costs too much AD to make it worth using.
Forgot to add: If they really want to make the new system perfect, simply remove the need for reagents.
So, as I was waiting for a change on the old system to start thinking about enchantments (as paying 50k AD to unslot anything was not a possibility I was accepting), I have pent like 500k AD on blue marks just to get my curret set to mostly rank 7 with some rank 6 left over.
So, IMO, it's been a HUGE AD sink, and a simple rip-off.
Well...I'm not sure "your lack of forward planning" constitutes a fault on cryptic's part.
One major advantage of this system is that it frees up a ton of bag space (unless you're an idiot about it). Rather than needing "4 of X" to get a chance at making one "X+1" enchant, you just have...the one enchant you're currently working on. Sharandar nodes can award R3-4, and "fight off spellplagued" awards a boatload of R2s, so it was quite easy to end up with 3 R2s, 3 R3s, 3 R4s, 3R5s and a bank vault full of R6s (I usually stopped at 6s coz I simply am not hardcore enough). You'd be using 4 inv slots just waiting for one R2 of the correct colour. I usually ended up throwing most of my R2s away.
Now? Dump all of those into the R6 in the bank. 4 free slots. Multiply by all the different kinds of enchants? TONS of free slots.
The only real problem is the bottleneck at the blue mark stage, which (since they now apparently drop from solo-dungeon nodes and nodes in L60 content) should hopefully be less of a problem.
I totally agree that it's a massive AD sink as well, but it's still a load better than the previous system.
say u want to upgrade a r6 to a r7. thats 12960 rp needed.
one r6 of the same type is worth 4320 rp and 4320 x3 = 12960 rp
The number of enchants of the same type needed goes up at higher ranks though.
You didn't really understand the new system. There is no point in feeding the enchantment to be upgraded with high level enchantments: you should use the ones you find in skill nodes and mobs' drops.
Other points that you are missing:
1 - previously you needed to have four of a kind to fuse into a higher level. This fusion had a success chance that was going smaller the higher the enchantments were. So, in order to have a rank 7 enchantment, you'd need a minimum of 64 level 4 to fuse, however the real number would be much higher due to the failures. Of course you could (and should from levels 5-6 on) use preservation wards, but they also have a cost that need to be taken in consideration.
2 - refining an enchantment is not only failure free, but you can also have a crit success that gives you 50% more RP, so the actual number of enchantments needed to refine an enchantment would actually be smaller.
3 - on the old system, to fuse from level 4 to level 7, you had 21 chances of failure (16 fusions 4-5, 4 fusions 5-6 and one 6-7). Now you have only 3 (4-5, 5-6, 6-7), which means many less preservation wards.
Anyway, it is still probably more expensive to create level 7 enchantment than before, because you'll need 3 marks of potency that costs 25K each (unless you happen to find them, but it is unlikely), but not by a wide margin due to many less preservation wards. Upgrading from 7+ is probably less expensive than before, even considering the cost of the greater marks of potency (100K each), due to the fact you only need another enchantment of equivalent level.
- blue Mark of <<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>> rarity; why do I 4-6 of the Greaters, yet have not acquired (except via AH) any of the blue quality ones?
- coal ward availability; large reduction in availability due to apparent nerf in yield from pray boxes; need another non-zen source perhaps?
- relatively poor upgrade cost balance of 3 stage enchants (lesser-regular-greater) vs. 4 stage (lesser-regular-greater-perfect), particularly the fey blessing. Instead of sweat-equity for 240 sparks + 80k AD + coal ward to go lesser->regular, now it's 200k AD + coal ward + ~500k AD worth of refining materials, with corresponding a reduction of 120 sparks...
Overall, I do like the extra bank space, but otherwise think the new mechanism is a relatively thinly veiled AD sink/zen sale booster, not actually an improvement for the players.
That's alone for R10 a huge improvement.
32 shards + RPgiver vs. 256 shards.
15 CW vs. 85 CW.
That's a huge improvement for normal Weapon/Armor Enchantment.
For special enchantment 'lesser':
4 vs. 16 needed of them(Fey/Sirene/Tene). + RP giver. The Fey maybe more expensive in the normal way - that's a clear point. But they take less PW too as before. And in the case of Paystuff(Tene and Plague are it) it cost less real money for the R10 rank aka greater.
So in which point are them also really bad?
Reagents of Marks? That is not a con. It's a pro point. If you don't think so/understand, then read follow sentence:
'Why should i do T2 anymore after i have my setitems?'
Granted it is harder to go from 5 to 6 and above, it is still easier than before as I am now working on 8s for most of my toons. My guild bank space has been freed up, and most of my toons are leveling up. So I love the new system.
Now factor in 6 more enchants for 1 pet.
Now factor in more than 1 pet.
Welcome to the grind folks....welcome to the grind....hello? Anyone there? *crickets*
It's all of the blue marks that are causing the problem. R5 -> R6 is just an example of how needlessly frustrating it is even at a low level. This isn't a game for people who like shopping, it's supposed to be an action RPG.
1. The need of lvl 7+ or lesser enchants as reagents. Why change the way of refining past a certain level? Before you just feed stuff and then rank it up with some marks. Putting just more RP into the item and at a certain point rank it up to the final rank would be enough. No reason to level other enchants in your bag and use them as forced reagens that are lost during ranking up.
2. The different kind of reagents you need. Why make it complicated with 4 different sorts of reagents for each rarity? Wouldn't be 1 for each rarity just be enough? It could be easily controlled by just scaling up the numbers. So instead of needing 3 different reagents just take 1 x3 or x4. On top of that the drop chances are really bad. Blue reagents are harder to get than purple ones and I never had any Mark of potency drop, so you need to buy a lot of them.
3. Still wards needed with really bad chances to refine. I burned several preservation wards although I had a 40 % chance. For 3 items in a row! Another level of complexity in the whole process. Instead, if you want to make it "hard" add a time sink that can be bypassed by spending AD. For example when you craft a reinforced gauntlet it takes 48h!!! to complete but can be finished spending AD. This could be implemented if there should be some sort of barrier but again, this would be something that ppl know (from crafting). No need to add wards at all.
To make it hard to rank up higher level stuff it would have been enough to increase RP needed to feed enchants and just increase the number of ONE reagent needed. Wards aren't needed then at all and only different rarity reagents (white, green, blue, purple). Complexity or time can be easily equalled by playing around with numbers for the reagents. So if they want someone to take x hours/days or x AD to get something from 9 to 10 just calculate the equivalent of reagents needed (drop rate, cost to buy etc.) and if so just make it 10 or 15 or 20 or whatever, but then it is at least simple to understand what one needs to do. You would know that you need to run dungeons to get 20 purple marks for upgrading one enchant to final rank or buy them off the AH.
Grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind...
Where did everyone go?
Even if you do farm T2s for hours per day, you'll hardly see any blue marks. It's far far worse than the old system; I could run dungeons, invoke and steadily improve all my enchants. Since mod 2 dropped? Not a chance.
So, lets compare old to new. Old way, 4 rank 7's (at 120k each [price doesnt matter as it effects both systems] totaling 480k. The new system - 2 rank 7's at 120k, plus 65k in refinement, plus one mark at 100k totaling 405k. As you can see the new system is cheaper, and it only gets cheaper as you get higher in rank.
Shopping for the most efficient refinement materials is THE most important aspect of the new system. Just remember, if 99 rank 5s are selling at 265k, but 99 Rank 4's are selling for 50k, then do the calculation and make the right choice. You will save boatloads.
The new system theoretically allows this, but in practice (due to blue marks being more or less non-existent) you end up spending AD buying the marks, whether you want to or not.
Simply, old system followed the standard cost vs time "pay-for-convenience" scheme, new system has fairly fixed, ostensibly unavoidable costs built into it, no matter how slow or fast you want to take it.
Still, bagspace. So much bagspace....
False, if ur using same rank and type enchants it actually is smaller.
r7 = 12960 x3 = 38880 which is what u need for a r8
r8 = 38880 x3 = 116640 which is more than u need for a r9 which is around 104k
r9 = 104k x3 = 312k which is more than u need for a r10 which is around 310k
Edit: forget this I was wrong.
I am not sure how you came to those conclusion as the official guide (http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?541751-Guide-to-the-New-Refinement-System) says:
refine point requirements (not including reagents):
it takes 3 of the same item to upgrade from r1 to r2.
it takes 3 of the same item to upgrade from r2 to r3.
it takes 3 of the same item to upgrade from r3 to r4.
it takes 4 of the same item to upgrade from r4 to r5.
it takes 4 of the same item to upgrade from r5 to r6.
it takes 4 of the same item to upgrade from r6 to r7.
it takes 5 of the same item to upgrade from r7 to r8.
it takes 5 of the same item to upgrade from r8 to r9.
it takes 5 of the same item to upgrade from r9 to r10.
If this is wrong you have better inform the guide-writer or post in that thread.