Hunter vs CW dps

kozi001

Valindra Tower:

CW 13.5k perfect vorp; thaum; R7-8; 4 purple comps; 1 blue artifact
Hunter 14k perfect vorp; somewhat better enchs, artifacts; probably only 2 Shar boons

Preclear: roughly the same; 50-100k differences after dropping a lucky shard.
after 1st Boss: 700k overdps to cw due to lots of aoe.

Unfortunately the Hunter had to go after that.
By Valindra because of the lots of single shooting probably he would go on top.

Well my build can be improved. I don't use Sudden Storm over Shield in preclear.
He has not that much control but lots of rooting.

I don't have a Hunter in my guild who reached that level in one week (...)
I would really like to run a long full CN run with one of them.

Anyone has some experience or thoughts on that?

Shall I start leveling Hunter?

pers3phone

From what I saw I believe they might do ALMOST the same dps as CWs when approximatively at same gear levels, lower if there's lots of AoE, although I'm not sure the CWs underperform significantly in single target fights.

The "problem" is that CWs have sing, have steal time-->huge pulls ready for the kill. I didn't see anything from HRs to compete properly in trash clearing, and we all know trash clearing is the name of the game, sadly.

grimah

from what ive experienced with some not so great geared hunters, (was on my gwf) i think i can gauge their damage quite well, and i could say they will do more than CWs. because of split shot spamming (an at-will). However they are getting a fix next patch to their feat.

I wouldn't worry about HR damage right now, as they will tweak them over the next month i'm guessing. I have yet to experience a dungeon with a full set of their crazy good T2 set on.

As per3phone said, even if they did more damage. they could not replace a wizard as they do not have the controls a CW can put out. hell, GWFs right now can put out crazy good damage and you could most likely run an entire dungeon with ease using 4x GWFs but you don't see people doing that yet.... people like the stuns and stuff :P

gankdalf

1 DC + 4 HRs = fail at clearing adds fast in VT.
1 DC + 4 CWs = win at clearing adds fast in VT.

They need us more than we need them.

vorphied

I don't predict that HRs that will outdamage CWs at end-game. However, I haven't had an HR in party with gear comparable to my CW's, so it's hard to say for certain.

Recent example in Karrundax (clean run, no wipes, no glitches):

My CW: 14.9k GS, Perfect Vorpal, Rank 8-9 enchantments, etc. etc. Thaumaturge spec, High Vizier, AoE heavy
The HR: 12k GS, Greater Vorpal, Rank 7 enchantments, mixed T1/T2 set, Archery spec, Split Shot, Aimed Shots, etc.
End of dungeon: 17.5 mil CW, 9.5 mil HR, everyone else millions behind

What I observed was that the HR did so much damage so easily to trash mobs that, in the beginning, the damage was comparable to my CW's (e.g. if you cast a Singularity and pull all the mobs together, the HR is going to clear trash with Split Shot before you can get your optimal rotation going).

However, HRs pull ridiculous aggro and need space and positioning to do their best damage at range. If they specced for archery, their damage is hugely increased at far range, not to mention that those juicy Aimed Shots are difficult to land on elites and bosses when getting tickled by enemies.

Also, I'd keep in mind that 9.5 million is still far more than many CWs can manage, and a BiS HR could of course do even more.

uurbs

vorphied wrote: »

[...]
However, HRs pull ridiculous aggro and need space and positioning to do their best damage at range. If they specced for archery, their damage is hugely increased at far range, not to mention that those juicy Aimed Shots are difficult to land on elites and bosses when getting tickled by enemies. [...]

That's exactly what I figured from a guild run with a new HR to the Temple of the Spider. He was very squishy, couldn't stand in the Astral Shield, as he needs the range to do more damage and therefore died quite regularly. Maybe "Exaltation" is not meant for the melees on the boss/big guy, but for the HR?

vorphied

uurbs wrote: »

That's exactly what I figured from a guild run with a new HR to the Temple of the Spider. He was very squishy, couldn't stand in the Astral Shield, as he needs the range to do more damage and therefore died quite regularly. Maybe "Exaltation" is not meant for the melees on the boss/big guy, but for the HR?

Having a skilled tank specced for threat control does help a bit, but even the best tank can't consistently prevent a ranger from gathering a personal fan club. I've watched mobs completely untouched by an HR veer directly for him, bypassing the tank marking them (the tank was able to get them back with a little effort, but it was still odd). I'm thinking HR aggro might be a wee bit broken.

uurbs

vorphied wrote: »

Having a skilled tank specced for threat control does help a bit,

I would have taken a tank, if one would have been available. I do love tanks in nearly any Dungeon.

vorphied wrote: »

[...] I'm thinking HR aggro might be a wee bit broken.

Nah, it will wear off, that's just like everybody is picking on the "New Kidz on the Block"

vorphied

I'm more concerned that HRs draw so much aggro even with a threat-specced tank actively tanking and an AoE spec wizard laying waste. It reminds me a little of the old DC aggro problem, if not nearly so extreme.

A little off-topic, maybe, but if they're going to give archery spec HRs tools to enhance their function at range (i.e. away from the rest of the group, who usually want to be close to enemies and close to each other), the aggro could stand to be toned down a tad :P

vintenar

3 GWF+ DC +CW is a good combination.

vorphied

vintenar wrote: »

3 GWF+ DC +CW is a good combination.

I, too, am concerned with the price of tea in China.

overddrive

I think all other things being equal, the HR will out-dps the CW, but the CW will out-burst the HR. So it is damage vs kills. Being CONTROL, as a cw, ill take the kills. Also, does burst damage draw as much agro as straight dps? It seems as cw when I hurt a pack of adds A LOT all at the same time, they will have me kiting them all over the map until they are dead.

vorphied

overddrive wrote: »

I think all other things being equal, the HR will out-dps the CW, but the CW will out-burst the HR. So it is damage vs kills. Being CONTROL, as a cw, ill take the kills. Also, does burst damage draw as much agro as straight dps? It seems as cw when I hurt a pack of adds A LOT all at the same time, they will have me kiting them all over the map until they are dead.

HRs seem to generate disproportionate levels of threat with some of their attacks, and Archer-spec Rangers lose substantial DPS when enemies start swarming them because it A) reduces the effectiveness of that nice feat that increases damage dealt based on distance to target and screws with their targeting angle if they were using Split Shot. CWs have the advantage of being somewhat less concerned with attack angles and timing.

As for how threat works, it seems quite wonky across the board. In any event, CWs are usually up there with HRs as aggro magnets since DCs got their threat fix months ago.

borken69

overddrive wrote: »

I think all other things being equal, the HR will out-dps the CW, but the CW will out-burst the HR.

HRs are pretty solidly in the 2nd highest damage slot, but a good wizard will not lose to a good ranger. HRs also have little/no CC so even if the damage was equal or slightly higher, wizards would still be a more useful class overall. Personally, I'm hoping for a revamp of HR damage to not rely so heavily on Split Shot, making melee builds more viable. As Vorphied said, Archers can have issues when they're in the fray, which happens very often in dungeons.

slushpsycho

I have not encounter a HR that can come even close to my cw's dmg, they have perfect vorpal and 12k-13k gs. I have 12.5 gs with g.vorpal.

Maybe they are PVP spec or just not really good at HR yet. But I honestly don't see how HR can out dps CW.

And yes HR pull lots of aggro, I am so happy for once those mob are not all chasing me instead they go for HR.

voltomey

slushpsycho wrote: »

I have not encounter a HR that can come even close to my cw's dmg, they have perfect vorpal and 12k-13k gs. I have 12.5 gs with g.vorpal.

Maybe they are PVP spec or just not really good at HR yet. But I honestly don't see how HR can out dps CW.

And yes HR pull lots of aggro, I am so happy for once those mob are not all chasing me instead they go for HR.

There's a trick that lets HR instantly recharge all of their skills we can then can use thorn ward and split the sky 3 times in a row i have out dps geared CW in t2 instances with this trick. But even With out it we can keep up with CW dps with split they sky thorn ward and split shot spamm. The only thing we lack is the abilitys to controll and push mobs.

vorphied wrote: »

I'm more concerned that HRs draw so much aggro even with a threat-specced tank actively tanking and an AoE spec wizard laying waste. It reminds me a little of the old DC aggro problem, if not nearly so extreme.

A little off-topic, maybe, but if they're going to give archery spec HRs tools to enhance their function at range (i.e. away from the rest of the group, who usually want to be close to enemies and close to each other), the aggro could stand to be toned down a tad :P

If the HR in your group does not have forest ghost on he is bad that's are best aggro dropping skill and we can attack from the stealth with out it breaking . I rarely have to move far from the cleric and kite much thanks to that skill its one of are 25% dailies and one that also lets us spam skills thanks to storm step action.

voltomey

vorphied wrote: »

HRs seem to generate disproportionate levels of threat with some of their attacks, and Archer-spec Rangers lose substantial DPS when enemies start swarming them because it A) reduces the effectiveness of that nice feat that increases damage dealt based on distance to target and screws with their targeting angle if they were using Split Shot. CWs have the advantage of being somewhat less concerned with attack angles and timing.

As for how threat works, it seems quite wonky across the board. In any event, CWs are usually up there with HRs as aggro magnets since DCs got their threat fix months ago.

I will agree with this but if they're not using the obvious skills that keep them alive and safe from adds there deaths are on them arguably the one skill that will pull mad agro is aimed shot.

hidahayabusa

The melee Ranger, can dish out tons of damage by getting a Plaguefire, shooting Thorn Ward/Split the sky and then go full melee on adds while spamming Fox Shift with Forest Ghost. Especially if a CW/GF are good to keep the mobs in place.

vorphied

I'm familiar with Forest Ghost for threat control and the encounter cooldown trick, but I doubt the latter will last long. There's no way the devs intended for that Daily to trigger the cooldown reduction class feature multiple times in a single cast.

Maybe I'm missing something with Split the Sky, but I haven't noticed it producing amazing numbers for other HRs. Controlled and dead mobs don't land many hits. I haven't played much with Split the Sky, myself, since I haven't done that much dungeon play on my own HR. Is there a special trick to it, or just that you can stack multiple clouds with encounter cooldown effects?

hidahayabusa

vorphied wrote: »

I'm familiar with Forest Ghost for threat control and the encounter cooldown trick, but I doubt the latter will last long. There's no way the devs intended for that Daily to trigger the cooldown reduction class feature multiple times in a single cast.

I don't know if they are going to nerf it or not, but it's a trick that works with a specific ability with a specific build against a number of enemies that exceeds 1. So, yes, if they nerf it for PvP balance (although I haven't seen it being popular...given that most rangers like to keep their distance and wear green tights) then the HR is going to be a no-trick pony.

As fas as Split the Sky is concerned, you don't need to get significant numbers as long as PF ticks remain at 3 while you go ahead and AoE chop.

voltomey

vorphied wrote: »

I'm familiar with Forest Ghost for threat control and the encounter cooldown trick, but I doubt the latter will last long. There's no way the devs intended for that Daily to trigger the cooldown reduction class feature multiple times in a single cast.

Maybe I'm missing something with Split the Sky, but I haven't noticed it producing amazing numbers for other HRs. Controlled and dead mobs don't land many hits. I haven't played much with Split the Sky, myself, since I haven't done that much dungeon play on my own HR. Is there a special trick to it, or just that you can stack multiple clouds with encounter cooldown effects?

Its insurance and mobs that do get hit will get hit with triple the dmg and triple the snare 3 thorn wards will also do more dmg and lower the defenses of more mobs softening them up for split shot spam now that throw caution can boost the dmg of split the sky and thorn ward. And ther is that the fact master of archery dose not consider thorn ward/split the sky encounter powers but still makes thorn ward crit 100% of the time with out using up the buff and the fact the buff is permanent. with a perfect vorpal comanding shot split the sky and thorn ward i am very sure i can out dps a CW at this point in time.

Also on forest ghost you only get CD depending on how many people you hit with it and the trick is almost never used in PvP cuas no ranger is actually up in melee range fighting. But for PvE i belive it will work just fine.

hidahayabusa

voltomey wrote: »

Also on forest ghost you only get CD depending on how many people you hit with it and the trick is almost never used in PvP cuas no ranger is actually up in melee range fighting.

Ehm, no. This is not true.

grimah

this is more about rangers than CWs.

I personally do not mind having rangers do more damage than CWs, because they should. They provide little else, and unlike a GWF who can keep mobs on him, the ranger is what i would call the anti-control class, they just make everything run amock, without a GF or CW to keep them incheck for them.

voltomey

hidahayabusa wrote: »

Ehm, no. This is not true.

If forest ghost is giving you more than 6 second of cd for 1 mob hit then it is a bug i have never ran into another ranger outside my self and guildies who run melee in PvP and most HR that do do it wrong and die horribly. you get 3 second for activating it and 3 more second for each mob hit so if 1 mobs totaly refreshes your CD then this is not intended and last time i checked it does not completely fresh the bar with 1 single mob

hidahayabusa

voltomey wrote: »

last time i checked it does not completely fresh the bar with 1 single mob

That's true, but I was not commenting on this. In PvE 90% of the situation you get a pack of mobs, while in PvP unless you 1v1 then you get more opponents. But we are derailing.

Grimah is right, HR right now is a damage dealer that can get problematic if it goes full ranged and gets aggro. If the whole subject is who pulls out the most damage, I guess they are comparable. But the amount of utility CW brings along is unmatched due to the CC potential (AS/tabbed Repel/Steal Time/Shard).

Personally I would feel more comfortable with getting a Combat feat and try to replace a TR in boss fights rather than going Drizzt/Lolgolas way and spamming Split Shot. But that's just preference.

voltomey

hidahayabusa wrote: »

That's true, but I was not commenting on this. In PvE 90% of the situation you get a pack of mobs, while in PvP unless you 1v1 then you get more opponents. But we are derailing.

Grimah is right, HR right now is a damage dealer that can get problematic if it goes full ranged and gets aggro. If the whole subject is who pulls out the most damage, I guess they are comparable. But the amount of utility CW brings along is unmatched due to the CC potential (AS/tabbed Repel/Steal Time/Shard).

Personally I would feel more comfortable with getting a Combat feat and try to replace a TR in boss fights rather than going Drizzt/Lolgolas way and spamming Split Shot. But that's just preference.

And this is arguably the problem with the combat tree currently it takes to much work to even try putting up numbers let alone replace a TR with the combat tree its Nice aoe dmg but it will not put up numbers like archer with split shot spam a CW or TR's single target dmg. I play Combat but its more of a PvP Build as the dmg is quite weak in PvE.

kozi001

Still doesn't run CN with HR but using Sudden Storm with Lifesteal really raised my dps.

As for the aggro question: during VT 1st boss I can pull off the boss from almost any GWF/TR(not GF) with Conduit of Ice. I seriously considered dropping Coi in some cases for Chill Strike or sg else.

But now if we have Hunter in group this problem solved. He has the aggro all the time making it easier for me.

Maybe HRs will be worth bringing CN for the big help in preclear and pulling boss.

themagicbum87

Just going to chime in really quick with my findings. My main is a CW, 13.5k + Stone + Plaguefire, and I run with a guildie CW who is about 14k with the same setup. We're both Thaum spec. Our DPS is usually the same at the end of VT, give or take a little.

Now that I've got my HR going (11.5k + Stone + G vorpal, archery spec) I can out dps my guild mate very easily. I think its when you pair a hunter with a good CW that keeps mobs together via sing, etc. that the HR's DPS jumps up a bit. Rain of arrows is godly when combined with a Sing and then Steal Time.

j0shi82

I've run VT quite a lot and rangers top the DPS chart for trash most of the time. Single target is still CW-country.

But I wouldn't take two with me in parties because they have serious aggro issues and can't hand out control. Mobs just spread all over the map with a HR in the group (and no GF).

drscone

j0shi82 wrote: »

But I wouldn't take two with me in parties because they have serious aggro issues and can't hand out control. Mobs just spread all over the map with a HR in the group (and no GF).

This You can tell where the HRs are in a large room because that's where all the mobs are streaming towards. "FEAR MY MIGHTY AOEs Mobs" "Hey, come back !"

Enjoy it while it lasts.

halequin1

voltomey wrote: »

There's a trick that lets HR instantly recharge all of their skills we can then can use thorn ward and split the sky 3 times in a row i have out dps geared CW in t2 instances with this trick. But even With out it we can keep up with CW dps with split they sky thorn ward and split shot spamm. The only thing we lack is the abilitys to controll and push mobs.



If the HR in your group does not have forest ghost on he is bad that's are best aggro dropping skill and we can attack from the stealth with out it breaking . I rarely have to move far from the cleric and kite much thanks to that skill its one of are 25% dailies and one that also lets us spam skills thanks to storm step action.

I was gonna mention this as well, but you seem to cover it Volt, I love using this combo, and dropping multiple TW's and StS's, Ghost is a must as well as is meditation, third encounter is either Mara or for the hell of it RoA, yes I also have a CW which kills in the dps, but I will say that the HR is fast coming to be be on top even after the Archer Mastery nerf. Wait till the HR's are tweaked a bit more from the players.