Tenes and Overrun Crit

godlysoul1

Quick questions. First is can tenes crit? Second is can weapon enchants damage over time crit?

The reason I ask is because if they cannot crit, it would seem that for a build utilizing both of these it would be best to go with points in STR instead of DEX if tenes and a damage over time would remove overrun crit between hits.

So really the end question is whether tenes and DOTs from weapon enchants will remove overrun crit.

esteena

godlysoul1 wrote: »

Quick questions. First is can tenes crit? Second is can weapon enchants damage over time crit?

The reason I ask is because if they cannot crit, it would seem that for a build utilizing both of these it would be best to go with points in STR instead of DEX if tenes and a damage over time would remove overrun crit between hits.

Tenes can't crit.

You need DEX to crit your other hits..

godlysoul1

If you calculate it, STR gives more damage than DEX when you do not use perfect vorpal if you exclude overrun crit. Hence, I was wondering if the non crit hits of tenes and DOT weapon enchants would remove the overrun crit buff between hits.

donblacksheep

Tenes dont crit, Dot enchants dont crit, dex will always be better than str, with vorpal or without.

esteena

godlysoul1 wrote: »

If you calculate it, STR gives more damage than DEX when you do not use perfect vorpal if you exclude overrun crit. Hence, I was wondering if the non crit hits of tenes and DOT weapon enchants would remove the overrun crit buff between hits.

Tene and weapon DoTs dont count as "hits". Weapon damage/encounters counts as hits. So tenes/DoTs wouldn't cancel overrun crit as overrun crit will work normally on your weapon hit/encounters hit excluding the tenes/DoTs effects.

stoxforum1

donblacksheep wrote: »

Tenes dont crit, Dot enchants dont crit, dex will always be better than str, with vorpal or without.

Disagree with dex better than str for damage.

Let's take 1000 base damage (doesn't matter what it is just picking something easy.) Now let's take a PVE TR with say 50% crit again to make it easy and show the number difference with a high crit chance so that you'll know it is even more substantial of a difference with a lower crit chance.

We'll say 100 hits, so 50 crit and 50 don't.
50*1000=50,000 either way for this part of the calc
without vorpal and without stealth 25% bonus in executioner or deadly momentum built (15%) = 50*(1000*1.75) = 87,500 (worst case)
without vorpal but with stealth and deadly momentum = 50*(1000*(1.75+.25+.15)) = 107,500
with vorpal but without stealth and deadly momentum = 50*(1000*(1.75+.5)) = 112,500
with vorpal and stealth and deadly momentum = 50*(1000*(1.75+.5+.25+.15)) = 132,500 (best case)

So we'll take the worst case and the best case for each base scenario.
Worst case being no vorpal, no stealth, no deadly momentum we have a total of 137500 damage.
If we add 1% damage to the base we end up with 1010*50 = 50,500, then 50*(1010*1.75) = 88,375, so 138,875 total.
If we add 1% crit, we have 1000*49 = 49,000, then 51*(1000*1.75) = 89,250, or 138,250 total.
So here you'll see that damage > crit.

Quick synopsis, 1% damage adds 1% to the overall damage. 1% crit adds .5454% to the overall damage.

If we take the best case adding .5 from vorpal, .25 from the executioner feat while stealthed, and another .15 from deadly momentum, above we found this total to be 182,500.
If we add 1% damage to the base we end up with 1010*50 = 50,500, then 50*(1010*2.65) = 133,825, so 184,325 total.
If we add 1% crit, we have 1000*49 = 49,000, then 51*(1000*1.75) = 135,150, or 184,150 total.
So here you'll see that once again, added damage (str) will beat added crit (dex) no matter the circumstance. When you get to lower numbers of crit like say 40% (typical of a pvp build) then str wins by a lot more.

Another quick synopsis, 1% damage adds as expected 1% to the overall damage. 1% crit this time adds .9041% damage.

manholio

I was told there would be no math...

stoxforum1

manholio wrote: »

I was told there would be no math...

Yeah, I just do math because if I say it's one thing 10 others will jump in and say I'm an idiot and I'm wrong just because they believe it's the other. It's hard to argue with math, but there's always someone that will anyway.

manholio

stoxforum1 wrote: »

Yeah, I just do math because if I say it's one thing 10 others will jump in and say I'm an idiot and I'm wrong just because they believe it's the other. It's hard to argue with math, but there's always someone that will anyway.

I was just giving you a hard time. Your attention to detail is appreciated.

esteena

stoxforum1 wrote: »

Disagree with dex better than str for damage.

Let's take 1000 base damage (doesn't matter what it is just picking something easy.) Now let's take a PVE TR with say 50% crit again to make it easy and show the number difference with a high crit chance so that you'll know it is even more substantial of a difference with a lower crit chance.

We'll say 100 hits, so 50 crit and 50 don't.
50*1000=50,000 either way for this part of the calc
without vorpal and without stealth 25% bonus in executioner or deadly momentum built (15%) = 50*(1000*1.75) = 87,500 (worst case)
without vorpal but with stealth and deadly momentum = 50*(1000*(1.75+.25+.15)) = 107,500
with vorpal but without stealth and deadly momentum = 50*(1000*(1.75+.5)) = 112,500
with vorpal and stealth and deadly momentum = 50*(1000*(1.75+.5+.25+.15)) = 132,500 (best case)

So we'll take the worst case and the best case for each base scenario.
Worst case being no vorpal, no stealth, no deadly momentum we have a total of 137500 damage.
If we add 1% damage to the base we end up with 1010*50 = 50,500, then 50*(1010*1.75) = 88,375, so 138,875 total.
If we add 1% crit, we have 1000*49 = 49,000, then 51*(1000*1.75) = 89,250, or 138,250 total.
So here you'll see that damage > crit.

Quick synopsis, 1% damage adds 1% to the overall damage. 1% crit adds .5454% to the overall damage.

If we take the best case adding .5 from vorpal, .25 from the executioner feat while stealthed, and another .15 from deadly momentum, above we found this total to be 182,500.
If we add 1% damage to the base we end up with 1010*50 = 50,500, then 50*(1010*2.65) = 133,825, so 184,325 total.
If we add 1% crit, we have 1000*49 = 49,000, then 51*(1000*1.75) = 135,150, or 184,150 total.
So here you'll see that once again, added damage (str) will beat added crit (dex) no matter the circumstance. When you get to lower numbers of crit like say 40% (typical of a pvp build) then str wins by a lot more.

Another quick synopsis, 1% damage adds as expected 1% to the overall damage. 1% crit this time adds .9041% damage.

100% accurate.

Which is why half orc is the best PvE race ( extra 2 STR and extra 2 DEX)

godlysoul1

stoxforum1 wrote: »

Disagree with dex better than str for damage.

Let's take 1000 base damage (doesn't matter what it is just picking something easy.) Now let's take a PVE TR with say 50% crit again to make it easy and show the number difference with a high crit chance so that you'll know it is even more substantial of a difference with a lower crit chance.

We'll say 100 hits, so 50 crit and 50 don't.
50*1000=50,000 either way for this part of the calc
without vorpal and without stealth 25% bonus in executioner or deadly momentum built (15%) = 50*(1000*1.75) = 87,500 (worst case)
without vorpal but with stealth and deadly momentum = 50*(1000*(1.75+.25+.15)) = 107,500
with vorpal but without stealth and deadly momentum = 50*(1000*(1.75+.5)) = 112,500
with vorpal and stealth and deadly momentum = 50*(1000*(1.75+.5+.25+.15)) = 132,500 (best case)

So we'll take the worst case and the best case for each base scenario.
Worst case being no vorpal, no stealth, no deadly momentum we have a total of 137500 damage.
If we add 1% damage to the base we end up with 1010*50 = 50,500, then 50*(1010*1.75) = 88,375, so 138,875 total.
If we add 1% crit, we have 1000*49 = 49,000, then 51*(1000*1.75) = 89,250, or 138,250 total.
So here you'll see that damage > crit.

Quick synopsis, 1% damage adds 1% to the overall damage. 1% crit adds .5454% to the overall damage.

If we take the best case adding .5 from vorpal, .25 from the executioner feat while stealthed, and another .15 from deadly momentum, above we found this total to be 182,500.
If we add 1% damage to the base we end up with 1010*50 = 50,500, then 50*(1010*2.65) = 133,825, so 184,325 total.
If we add 1% crit, we have 1000*49 = 49,000, then 51*(1000*1.75) = 135,150, or 184,150 total.
So here you'll see that once again, added damage (str) will beat added crit (dex) no matter the circumstance. When you get to lower numbers of crit like say 40% (typical of a pvp build) then str wins by a lot more.

Another quick synopsis, 1% damage adds as expected 1% to the overall damage. 1% crit this time adds .9041% damage.

Or if you don't want your brain to explode....

1000 dmg per hit, 50% crit chance (+1% crit) VS 1010 dmg per hit (+1% str) 49% crit chance

Using 100 hits (Perfect Vorp = 50% = .5 ; Normal Crit Severity = 75% = .75)

Dex -> 1000*(.5+.75)*50 + 1000*50 = 112,500 dmg
Str -> 1010*(.5+.75)*49 + 1010*51 = 113,372.5 dmg

Thanks for that though. For some reason I must have been remembering this quick calculation wrong because I had it stuck in my head that STR was only better without the vorpal. Overrun crit would be insignificant in this scenario seeing as even if you add an extra 300 damage to one hit on the DEX build you still come up short. However, like you said, the average pvp build tends not to reach 50% crit anymore regardless, so STR is better than DEX for dps.

Also, end results are still the same if you use .8 instead of .75 for half orc race +5% severity. Can't believe max dex and dex>str is still so prominent.

esteena

godlysoul1 wrote: »

Or if you don't want your brain to explode....

1000 dmg per hit, 50% crit chance (+1% crit) VS 1010 dmg per hit (+1% str) 49% crit chance

Using 100 hits (Perfect Vorp = 50% = .5 ; Normal Crit Severity = 75% = .75)

Dex -> 1000*(.5+.75)*50 + 1000*50 = 112,500 dmg
Str -> 1010*(.5+.75)*49 + 1010*51 = 113,372.5 dmg

Thanks for that though. For some reason I must have been remembering this quick calculation wrong because I had it stuck in my head that STR was only better without the vorpal. Overrun crit would be insignificant in this scenario seeing as even if you add an extra 300 damage to one hit on the DEX build you still come up short. However, like you said, the average pvp build tends not to reach 50% crit anymore regardless, so STR is better than DEX for dps.

Also, end results are still the same if you use .8 instead of .75 for half orc race +5% severity. Can't believe max dex and dex>str is still so prominent.

You forgot to add the severity from feats.

His math is more accurate than yours.

godlysoul1

Yeah, its more accurate, but you could consider them insignificant since the added bonuses are so small. Plus they are conditional effects and affect both DEX/STR by the same percent boost. I'd say most damage in pvp comes from out of stealth than in stealth, while utilizing things like impact shot and ITC anyway. It's just simplifying the calculation by disregarding the insignificant for the same reason he didn't add overrun crit or nimble blade in his calculation.

Either way, the point is STR > DEX and thanks again for a detailed analysis

esteena

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setherio

Actually, your max with crit severity is off. The most crit Severity you can get is ~180.

On my Halfling I've gotten 144 (without vorp). Using Wild Storm Elixer (+10% Critical Severity) and some Soup (+3% Critical Severity) and soon with the Active Ability from Compaions (Dancing Blade - +3% Critical Severity) that would make it go up even higher.

76 (Halfing Trait: +1% Crit Severity)
25 (Stealth)
15 (Deadly Momentum)
3 (Soup)
10 (Elixer)
3 (Active Dancing Blade Companion)
= 132 + 50 (Vorp) = 182 Critical Severity

*Note: I think the elixer gives a flat out +10% and on occasion +x% more.Not sure how I got 144 otherwise...

greenflake2

godlysoul1 wrote: »

Or if you don't want your brain to explode....

1000 dmg per hit, 50% crit chance (+1% crit) VS 1010 dmg per hit (+1% str) 49% crit chance

Using 100 hits (Perfect Vorp = 50% = .5 ; Normal Crit Severity = 75% = .75)

Dex -> 1000*(.5+.75)*50 + 1000*50 = 112,500 dmg
Str -> 1010*(.5+.75)*49 + 1010*51 = 113,372.5 dmg

Thanks for that though. For some reason I must have been remembering this quick calculation wrong because I had it stuck in my head that STR was only better without the vorpal. Overrun crit would be insignificant in this scenario seeing as even if you add an extra 300 damage to one hit on the DEX build you still come up short. However, like you said, the average pvp build tends not to reach 50% crit anymore regardless, so STR is better than DEX for dps.

Also, end results are still the same if you use .8 instead of .75 for half orc race +5% severity. Can't believe max dex and dex>str is still so prominent.

the math is wrong u are forgeting that the crit damage is 1 + crit severity making it:
Dex -> 1000*(.5+.75+1)*50 + 1000*50 = 162500
Str -> 1010*(.5+.75+1)*49 + 1010*51 = 162862.5

if u add severity from the 25% more from stealth u get:
Dex -> 1000*(.5+1+1)*50 + 1000*50 = 175000
Str -> 1010*(.5+1+1)*49 + 1010*51 = 175235

Which is more on par..making Dex not a really bad thing.