Player 1: We have to help the elves defeat King Malabog and take back Sharandar!
Player 2: Screw the elves, let's just fight each other.
Actually, paper and pen player here. Did it all the time.
Maybe your D&D was a little ... limited.
Every group I've been in for going on 20 years has had PvP in some shape form or fashion. And that's not including the simple concept that it's the dungeon master controlling the monster's actions which makes the game worth playing.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
when you're having a discussion with a majority of end-gamer pvp'ers about the longevity of any game, of course they're going to hop onto the argument that the success of pvp will make or break a game's success. however i would think that diversity is the name of the game. and neverwinter is too young to have a lot of it, although there is no denying that they've been quite prolific for an MMO title. it might be hard to convince the pvp'ers of this, but as for the rest of the population that is enjoying neverwinter and the content... it's spot on.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
it might be hard to convince the pvp'ers of this, but as for the rest of the population that is enjoying neverwinter and the content... it's spot on.
Sorry but I find this quite a bit optimistic. I'm not a dedicated PvPer by far, I like both PvE and PvP, but both sides are seriously lacking. Basically the thing that keeps the game from falling apart (personal opinion) is the amazing combat system and (lately) frequent events (bu they are starting to get old real fast too). While there are many good things in NWO and they should be appreciated, there are also many aspects of the game that just makes a person that is used to MMOs and RPGs stop and wonder "What the hell were they thinking?". A few examples, enumerated without any special order:
- no matchmaking/ladders in a very competitive and (still) populated PvP scene, no special rewards of any sort to encourage competition
- no dual-spec
- easily exploitable dungeons (efforts are being made to fix them, they need to be recognized)
- blue drops in epic dungeons (major fail)
- no boss mechanics in dungeons, everything is...
- ... more adds, more adds, more adds, more red zones
- lore, story&setting:
I played NWN and BG games. Worse graphic/audio engine, yet the story managed to be fascinating and involving, even if it was again just a "save the world" variation. This game don't make me feel involved in any way other than "I want more loot".
These things and many others are frustrating most players, PvPers or PvErs alike. I know quite a few friends that were extremely active and just gradually stopped logging, and I have other friends that are contemplating stopping playing NWO as well. Others log just to invoke or play a PvP or two, and it's over.
My personal conclusion is that these two modules we got are too little and not what is truly needed. The Fey thing was pretty much a joke. It's enough for me to see the fashion items (wings? wth...) and it's summarizing the whole module. Also, how can you make a CW set so bad that basically no CW out there wears it?!? What kind of item designers does Cryptic have?
Shadowmantle is basically more of the same. Nothing has changed but the theme, and to defeat the main enemy in the story in a dungeon that has basically nothing truly epic in it is just... speechless.
Sure, new blood might refresh the numbers of players for a while, but how about we keep the veterans too?
Sure, new blood might refresh the numbers of players for a while, but how about we keep the veterans too?
Player. Generated. Content.
It's one of the reasons I stand behind the crowd that says 'PvP drives the game'. It's player generated. It's constantly evolving. It's not that PvP is bad, it's that there aren't enough tools for the players to make it better.
Private matches. Custom maps. Open world conquest zones. Leaderboards and stats.
The same can be said for PvE. If the devs feed us a dungeon, we're through it in days, sometimes hours. We constantly digest this stuff. So to keep players playing, there's two major hooks in PvE: make it a grind to get every ounce of power (30 Frozen Heart runs, anyone?), or let players make new content.
Foundry does a great job with this. But other things, like player housing, more guild mechanics (ala STO), auction house economy (which BoP affects negatively), character customization (looted/crafted fashion items, additions to mounts/pets), roleplay tools (more emotes, private venues, stances, etc), and even leaderboards and stats.
There are plenty of ways to make the game fun and draw us into it. Feeding us tightly controlled storylines like Feywild and Shadowmantle has the shortest gameplay value. Giving us the ability to create more of our own stories ... that's where the real replayability is.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Sorry but I find this quite a bit optimistic. I'm not a dedicated PvPer by far, I like both PvE and PvP, but both sides are seriously lacking. Basically the thing that keeps the game from falling apart (personal opinion) is the amazing combat system and (lately) frequent events (bu they are starting to get old real fast too). While there are many good things in NWO and they should be appreciated, there are also many aspects of the game that just makes a person that is used to MMOs and RPGs stop and wonder "What the hell were they thinking?".
etc...
Your post is spot on.
I agree that the PvP in this game has some missing features that should have been included from day one. PvP, however, is a working (yet incomplete) system, whereas the PvE end game content is completely dysfunctional.
The prevalence of dungeon exploits in NW have created a player culture where exploiting has become the norm. This has completely turned me off to PvE in this game.
Having said that, I completely understand why people do it. You have buggy boss fights where you can get one shot by an invisible red zone. You have generally poor boss design where infinite add spawn takes the place of challenging and dynamic fights. You also have a terrible imbalance of risk versus reward. These frustrations coupled with the wide availability of exploits that are addressed very slowly (if at all) and it's no wonder that PvE is in the state it is in.
At least the PvP in this game is working and the combat system is well executed and engaging. The challenge and fun of PvP is its own reward, even without a working bracket system, duels, more map and game variety, and other features one would expect in an MMO. To me PvP is the only end game right now because it is the only end game that is functional.
The one great feature this game has over other MMOs is the Foundry, but Cryptic has failed to realize the full potential of this free player-generated content. Take the best of the Foundry and add balanced rewards. Also, people are begging to create PvP maps to be implemented in the game. If someone offers to do design work for you for free to add content that is conspicuously missing from the game you say yes.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Sigh. Tried pugging some PvP games today on my GF. Was regularly the only one(or two) to head to node 2 or to even try fighting on a node. I need a friends list of people who are awake and playing in the GMT time zone clearly.
Having my "team" flee when they see the opposition and leave me to get ganked isn't fun the first time and even less fun when this pretty much summarises every pug match I tried to endure(I had enough and quit, something I try not to do very often). I think my GF is going to be consigned to the invoke bin, especially with module two making her worthless in PvE as well. Looks like TR is the only class I'll bother PvPing on and TR/CW are the only classes I'll bother taking into dungeons.
If you're not a premade party, PVP is mostly broken.
Seriously, if you want a balanced round, at least the same classes and a similar GS should be on both sides.
It's really unfair if I kill someone with two shots of ray of enfeeblement or if i have to face exotic parties consisting of 2 GFs and a DC.
It doesn't even seem like cryptic is trying to get normal matches.
It's disappointing to see people do this. Many premades aren't full of amazing PvPers, and even when they are, why be so rude as to ditch?
One of my matches today was in a group full of 8-10k GS players against a full premade, and most of my team spent the match off in la-la land, not kicking bodies or rezzing team members at easy opportunities, messing around off of nodes, sitting in the campfire, etc. Definitely put a cramp in my style, but I got a few kills out of it and made friends with one of the "enemy" players after.
Cool story aside, the point is that leaving PvP matches just because of guild tags or an obvious disadvantage in collective gear or skill level is inconsiderate and not doing anyone any favors. Better not to queue at all.
I mainly solo Q. Because unless it's an organized pm vs pm, I cannot group with my own guild, because
People leave almost immediately. Quitting is lame, unfair, cowardly and ruins everyone's time. I wish your entire account was locked
For 5 hours if you quit a match.
People always talking about there teams GS. It's silly to me that you even care
To go inspecting your whole team and using that as a reason to quit. I never...ever...ever...inspect anyone on my team, because I couldn't possibly care less. I join pvp because it's fun for me. Pvp isn't fair, it's not balanced and it never will be, and that's why I like it. It's the unknown. If my team is lesser geared, new, or just downright bad. Well guess what, I guess I have to try a little now.
PvP leavers....you are the worst of the worst. I'm my eyes you are complete worthless scum and don't deserve to have the option of Q'ing for PvP...
That's funny, that is also why I (occasionally) queue for PVP, because I am looking for a fun experience.
But here's the big difference, I think. To me, the fun part of PVP isn't killing people. It's having a competitive match, and a chance at victory for my team. If my team wins but I end up with zero kills, that is totally fine with me.
I don't think the same can be said of many of the 'elite' PVPers.
"NW PvP is the first game I've played when I've started consistently quitting and I've been playing online FPSes since the internet was invented, so I wondered why this was."
sorry, I'm gonna be a butthead. The internet was out long before first person shooters:)
Fair play You win this round
When it come to playing premades, I'm a little mystified why the really good teams bother queuing. They tend to steamroller their random opposition at the first encounter at which point someone usually quits. After the next spawn it's over even quicker and someone else quits, then it's properly over. 2 minutes in, with no challenge to speak of.
Rather amusingly I met a player from such a match 2 games later. He quit after 5 mins in a close game. Guess some people don't like it when they have to work for it.
One the flip side, I've had quite a few games end 1000 to 999 in the last few weeks. Really good stuff. And as has been pointed out not all premades are stacked with BiS and perfect enchants.
NW PvP. When it's good, it's very, very good, when it's bad, it's awful.
Tele Savalas, Dwarf Thaumaturge CW
Putting the Buff into Debuff since 2013 \o/ (Does that even make sense)?
I mainly solo Q. Because unless it's an organized pm vs pm, I cannot group with my own guild, because
People leave almost immediately. Quitting is lame, unfair, cowardly and ruins everyone's time. I wish your entire account was locked
For 5 hours if you quit a match.
People always talking about there teams GS. It's silly to me that you even care
To go inspecting your whole team and using that as a reason to quit. I never...ever...ever...inspect anyone on my team, because I couldn't possibly care less. I join pvp because it's fun for me. Pvp isn't fair, it's not balanced and it never will be, and that's why I like it. It's the unknown. If my team is lesser geared, new, or just downright bad. Well guess what, I guess I have to try a little now.
PvP leavers....you are the worst of the worst. I'm my eyes you are complete worthless scum and don't deserve to have the option of Q'ing for PvP...
It is with a great deal of reluctance that I have decided to reply to your post.
First of all your derogatory insulting of non-epic geared players belittles you. It would be wise to tone that down.
You, yourself have maximum tier armor, weapons, and enchantments; in addition to the best combination of same for the various classes you play. Further, you are a professional pvp player who has been playing for over 5 months of continuous almost daily playing, with a total of most likely over 1500 hours of pvp play time. When you step into the pvp arena against a casual group, it is akin to a 400lb of pure hard muscle mid-twenties NFL LINEBACKER playing a full contact game against a few middle-aged couch potatoes who decided to throw a ball around for a bit of week -end fun. There is just no fair comparison.
You have no need to inspect gear since you are already wearing the best.
It is fun for you because your superior gear and experience means that at an individual level you will win the vast majority of the time.
If you wish to earn the respect that you seek, here is what you should do:
Create a casual play pvp armor set consisting of blue armor and weapon, rank3 and 4 enchantments, and lessers. Q solo with that, record a few games and post it.
In the meantime, quit calling people scum. There is nothing especially special about you that entitles you to have players enter the game and play solely and in such a way to keep you, and only you, entertained; especially, and particularly, if they are not finding that particular portion of playing, or playtime, or playing at that time, entertaining.
I mainly solo Q. Because unless it's an organized pm vs pm, I cannot group with my own guild, because
People leave almost immediately. Quitting is lame, unfair, cowardly and ruins everyone's time. I wish your entire account was locked
For 5 hours if you quit a match.
People always talking about there teams GS. It's silly to me that you even care
To go inspecting your whole team and using that as a reason to quit. I never...ever...ever...inspect anyone on my team, because I couldn't possibly care less. I join pvp because it's fun for me. Pvp isn't fair, it's not balanced and it never will be, and that's why I like it. It's the unknown. If my team is lesser geared, new, or just downright bad. Well guess what, I guess I have to try a little now.
PvP leavers....you are the worst of the worst. I'm my eyes you are complete worthless scum and don't deserve to have the option of Q'ing for PvP...
the problem with such a general statement is there are varied reasons as to why people might quit a pvp match. you may be thinking of a specific group when you make this statement, but that is not how your message is conveyed. in my opinion, there is no true "guide" to quitting since everyone is different and involved in their own personal situations. and for that reason, you cannot attack every person that's ever left a pvp match. it's just simply unfair to do so.
for example... fred is trying to get in one last match before he's called down to dinner. and sure enough, right in the middle of the match, dinner's ready. and his team is winning. let's say fred tells his mom that he's going to finish the match and she's not having it because fred does this all the time. so she pulls the plug on the router. boom. fred's quit the match... his team mates are disappointed. and the other team ends up catching up and they end up winning. yeah, this sucks for fred and his teammates. but it was completely out of fred's control.
example two... fred has just joined a match and realizes that he didn't mean to join the pvp queue, he wanted to join the CTA skirmish queue. so he quits the match. it should be early enough in the match so someone else in the queue should take his place.
example three... two minutes into a match, fred realizes he's playing against a premade and they're decked to the gills and everyone on his team seems to be brand new level 60s. and they're losing badly. sure enough, two people on his team quit. then one more. it's now 5 v 2 and the opposing team are camped just below his spawn area. no one is talking or agreeing to 1v1s... just complete slaughter. let's also add into this that fred is trying to get his last bit of epic T1 pvp gear and this would have been the match that would have afforded that for him. but he has 300 points and 7 deaths. that means no glory rewards. and there's at least seven more minutes to go. what's fred to do?
example four... fred is having a bad day and thinks that some pvp should get his mind off of things. but nothing is working out right. all the pug teams he's been queued with are all over the place and he's already lost two games in a row. at the beginning of the third game, all of his teammates run for their home cap and fred knows this is off to a bad start. he goes to the middle cap and gets slaughtered by a premade team. fred's had enough and he quits the game.
the point is, if you focus only on your own specific experience and judge everyone else based on your current level of awareness, you're only seeing your side of the picture and it's unfair to judge someone else simply because they aren't playing the way you want them to play. this is just a game and real life definitely comes first. after all, one of the reasons why some people enjoy pvp vs pve is that it's a living, breathing thinker on the other end playing in a (hopefully) competitive way.
I mainly solo Q. Because unless it's an organized pm vs pm, I cannot group with my own guild, because
People leave almost immediately. Quitting is lame, unfair, cowardly and ruins everyone's time. I wish your entire account was locked
For 5 hours if you quit a match.
People always talking about there teams GS. It's silly to me that you even care
To go inspecting your whole team and using that as a reason to quit. I never...ever...ever...inspect anyone on my team, because I couldn't possibly care less. I join pvp because it's fun for me. Pvp isn't fair, it's not balanced and it never will be, and that's why I like it. It's the unknown. If my team is lesser geared, new, or just downright bad. Well guess what, I guess I have to try a little now.
PvP leavers....you are the worst of the worst. I'm my eyes you are complete worthless scum and don't deserve to have the option of Q'ing for PvP...
I'll inspect my own team, but it's to get an idea of what kind of support I might expect. I'm much more comfortable standing near the 13k DC than I am next to the 6k DC. But no, I won't leave a match because of it. I sympathize with people who find PvP utterly frustrating because almost all of their match-ups are unbalanced, and I do hope that Cryptic implements an optional queue for fresh or super-casual 60s, but if it bothers someone that much, my advice is to save themselves the aggravation and not queue.
PvP quitters need to be unable to join another match until their previous match expires, and players should be penalized for sitting in the campfire for too long. Forcibly eject them from the match if they remain in the campfire longer than 60 seconds and inflict the aforementioned quitter penalty on them.
Great points, and that's why I personally advocate reasonable penalties that allow for the possibility that someone might need to leave a match for a variety of reasons while preventing people from hopping from queue to queue until they find a favorable match-up, which I believe is what's going on most of the time, anyway.
Example 3 = it happens. I'd rather Fred have to go heat up a Hot Pocket before his next match than be able to jump back in right away, because that's highly abusable and currently rampant.
Example 4 = sucks to be Fred. We've all been there. One might feel justified in ditching a willfully bad team, but again, not being able to requeue instantly should be an acceptable trade-off that helps reduce abuse.
Does anyone know what happens if everyone on one side quits? Does the game just end there and then?
<edit> I'm in favour of quitter penalties for the first person to quit from a side. After that, the other 4 are screwed and should be able to leave freely
</edit>
Tele Savalas, Dwarf Thaumaturge CW
Putting the Buff into Debuff since 2013 \o/ (Does that even make sense)?
It is with a great deal of reluctance that I have decided to reply to your post.
First of all your derogatory insulting of non-epic geared players belittles you. It would be wise to tone that down.
You, yourself have maximum tier armor, weapons, and enchantments; in addition to the best combination of same for the various classes you play. Further, you are a professional pvp player who has been playing for over 5 months of continuous almost daily playing, with a total of most likely over 1500 hours of pvp play time. When you step into the pvp arena against a casual group, it is akin to a 400lb of pure hard muscle mid-twenties NFL LINEBACKER playing a full contact game against a few middle-aged couch potatoes who decided to throw a ball around for a bit of week -end fun. There is just no fair comparison.
You have no need to inspect gear since you are already wearing the best.
It is fun for you because your superior gear and experience means that at an individual level you will win the vast majority of the time.
If you wish to earn the respect that you seek, here is what you should do:
Create a casual play pvp armor set consisting of blue armor and weapon, rank3 and 4 enchantments, and lessers. Q solo with that, record a few games and post it.
In the meantime, quit calling people scum. There is nothing especially special about you that entitles you to have players enter the game and play solely and in such a way to keep you, and only you, entertained; especially, and particularly, if they are not finding that particular portion of playing, or playtime, or playing at that time, entertaining.
Just to clarify, I am not wearing the "best" gear that you say.
I dont need to create a casual play pvp armor set, because I frequently play completely naked, other then my weapons, giving myself a GS of 3.6k. As does many of my guild members, and guess what? People still quit. Because they are unwilling to try at all. Even against completely naked players. Do you realize how pathetic that is?
I realize that life happens and there are many reasons why a person quits a match. I'm not saying anything about that.
What I am talking about is the people that say "When I see a premade, I just quit". How can anyone, ever justify that is beyond me.
So you want to pvp, but not if its against a premade, and not if someone on your team has a low gs, and not if you have 2 clerics, and not if the other team has 3 trs, and not if everyone doesnt do exactly what I say, when I say it, and only when the stars are perfectly aligned to my satisfaction that will further my gaming ability to roflstomp someone in pvp.
In the meantime, quit calling people scum. There is nothing especially special about you that entitles you to have players enter the game and play solely and in such a way to keep you, and only you, entertained; especially, and particularly, if they are not finding that particular portion of playing, or playtime, or playing at that time, entertaining.
This is my favorite part.
I'm not special at all, I'm just like everyone else. I never...ever...try and force anyone to play in any particular way. Anyone that knows me will tell you that.
I agree with you, that you should be allowed to come and go as you please. But, there should absolutely be a penalty for someone "leaving party" in a PvP match if each team is a full team. It ruins it for everyone else.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It's disappointing to see people do this. Many premades aren't full of amazing PvPers, and even when they are, why be so rude as to ditch?
One of my matches today was in a group full of 8-10k GS players against a full premade, and most of my team spent the match off in la-la land, not kicking bodies or rezzing team members at easy opportunities, messing around off of nodes, sitting in the campfire, etc. Definitely put a cramp in my style, but I got a few kills out of it and made friends with one of the "enemy" players after.
Cool story aside, the point is that leaving PvP matches just because of guild tags or an obvious disadvantage in collective gear or skill level is inconsiderate and not doing anyone any favors. Better not to queue at all.
I've had great matches vs full premades while in a pug so I can attest to that. However, that is rare. More often, either the premade is full of egotistical *bad words* or my team is full of quitters.
I mainly solo Q. Because unless it's an organized pm vs pm, I cannot group with my own guild, because
People leave almost immediately. Quitting is lame, unfair, cowardly and ruins everyone's time. I wish your entire account was locked
For 5 hours if you quit a match.
People always talking about there teams GS. It's silly to me that you even care
To go inspecting your whole team and using that as a reason to quit. I never...ever...ever...inspect anyone on my team, because I couldn't possibly care less. I join pvp because it's fun for me. Pvp isn't fair, it's not balanced and it never will be, and that's why I like it. It's the unknown. If my team is lesser geared, new, or just downright bad. Well guess what, I guess I have to try a little now.
PvP leavers....you are the worst of the worst. I'm my eyes you are complete worthless scum and don't deserve to have the option of Q'ing for PvP...
Wow. That's quite some vitriol spewing from your mouth there. In my experience, solo queuing as a TR or a sentinel(be it DC or GWF) is more enjoyable than solo queuing with other classes/builds simply because you have the ability to withstand more unbalanced odds without getting steamrolled to the campfire every 15 seconds. Not everyone is good at PvP. Many just do it for their entry level T1 or for the daily.
That's funny, that is also why I (occasionally) queue for PVP, because I am looking for a fun experience.
But here's the big difference, I think. To me, the fun part of PVP isn't killing people. It's having a competitive match, and a chance at victory for my team. If my team wins but I end up with zero kills, that is totally fine with me.
I don't think the same can be said of many of the 'elite' PVPers.
A fun match for me is one what I feel I have made a decent contribution to a win(or indeed, a close loss) or one where I feel both me and my team, even if vastly out competed have done well for ourselves(ie, "that went better than expected"). I don't get this feeling when I'm one of two people left and the entire opposition team is standing under the campfire refusing duels. I'll leave, I don't care about the daily RAD, I just want to have fun, this goes both ways.
While having your team quit isn't fun, neither is having your team steamrolled and the opposition insist on you coming out to feed their ego. People like that give PvP a bad reputation and if in a premade, give their guilds a bad reputation.
PvP quitters need to be unable to join another match until their previous match expires, and players should be penalized for sitting in the campfire for too long. Forcibly eject them from the match if they remain in the campfire longer than 60 seconds and inflict the aforementioned quitter penalty on them.
I wouldn't have a problem with not being able to queue until the match is over. However I feel that the campfire eject is a little harsh. If the game detects that players are simply not leaving the campfire and their team has under 1/3rd of the opposition's score(provided the opposition score is over 500) or more than 3/5 of the team has a score under 300 then the game should simply end. There is no sense to prolonging a match that is already won.
tang, the campfire part is for players who stop participating in the match as soon as odds appear to be against them and will, for all intents and purposes, quit the match while staying in the arena so that they get credit for their Daily AD.
A couple of things would make PvP a little smoother, though:
- As you say, the match should end after a certain period of time if no players are playing. I would like to see that happen after the 500 point mark if 0 players are remaining on one side.
- After 500 points (or 5 minutes, or some other arbitrary time), a side should be permitted to surrender by team vote.
Just to clarify, I am not wearing the "best" gear that you say.
I dont need to create a casual play pvp armor set, because I frequently play completely naked, other then my weapons, giving myself a GS of 3.6k. As does many of my guild members, and guess what? People still quit. Because they are unwilling to try at all. Even against completely naked players. Do you realize how pathetic that is?
I realize that life happens and there are many reasons why a person quits a match. I'm not saying anything about that.
What I am talking about is the people that say "When I see a premade, I just quit". How can anyone, ever justify that is beyond me.
So you want to pvp, but not if its against a premade, and not if someone on your team has a low gs, and not if you have 2 clerics, and not if the other team has 3 trs, and not if everyone doesnt do exactly what I say, when I say it, and only when the stars are perfectly aligned to my satisfaction that will further my gaming ability to roflstomp someone in pvp.
This is my favorite part.
I'm not special at all, I'm just like everyone else. I never...ever...try and force anyone to play in any particular way. Anyone that knows me will tell you that.
I agree with you, that you should be allowed to come and go as you please. But, there should absolutely be a penalty for someone "leaving party" in a PvP match if each team is a full team. It ruins it for everyone else.
Firstly, it is a slap in the face of your opponent to enter the PVP arena as you claim "naked". Your opponent gains nothing, you gain everything and lose nothing. This may be why they leave when they see you "naked".
As a trickster rogue, your claim of "naked" except for your Tier 2.5 epic fomorian weapons is ludicrous. You are not naked. You are carrying the best weapon in the game. When you can use said weapons to 1 or 2 shot your opponent from stealth, your claim of nakedness falls short, and is meaningless.
If your opponent is unable to prevail against your so-called "naked " character, you are demeaning thier abilities and thier efforts. If they do prevail, then your excuse is that you were "naked", and obviously absent your "nakedness" they would not have prevailed. In other words a lose lose situation for your opponent, and a show of disrespect to them.
Wear blue armor, blue weapon, rank3 or 4 enchants and lessors, then fight. Win or lose, that is what will earn you the respect you crave.
Finally, to repeat myself, calling someone scum with no justification is an awful thing to do, and reflects very poorly on you.
I tend to find that staying or quitting is usually a decision someone else in the group makes for me.
I solo queue and Premade many times a day. During the solo queue's I fight and continue to fight until the bell rings unless one of the following situations comes to pass.
1. Someone quits the match very early. Especially before the 100 point mark is hit.
They run down, die, spam their help button 47 times and get upset noone rez's them even though a full scale war is going on around their hovering corpse. These people suually quit and put the team at a disadvantage for the rest of the match. So I will assess the situation, look at my team, look at what we are up against and make a judgement on chances of winning / fun / learning something. If my time would be better spent in another match, I will leave.
2. Mouthy party members or rude behavior by party members.
I like to try to think of myself as a player with morals and play a fair respectful game. Sure I get frustrated, everyone does. Sure there are times I am one of those mouthy party members. This is born out of pure frustration and it passes very quickly, even after a match I will apologize to the person I offended and end up talking it out. But constant rude behavior and **** talking is something I will not stand for. One of my favorites is a low gear score ( wearing mismatched gear ) calling the party noobs or whatnot, for not following their lead or doing something they demanded. I always get a chuckle out of these guys. But if it's something that persists, yes I will leave. As a matter of fact I had this situation happen earlier while I was pugging on my cleric.
A chain dying GWF complained about not getting heals on our home node ( I was busy supporting node 2 ) from the cleric and proceeded to **** talk for the next 3 minutes. I inspected him after we secured node 2, noticed as a self proclaimed sentinel his defense was barely above 1500 and his deflect near 1000, with no regen. Then kindly retorted if he was unhappy about my heals maybe he should wear gear ment for that specific build. Of course..I was the ****, moron, dumbas*...Someone else in the group had enough of his mouth, cussed him out and left. Which made my decision that much easier. So I said if my heals were so bad seeing they couldnt reach half a map across, I will excuse myself then, and I left. I got better ways to spend my time.
3. Pug vs Premade with bad behavior.
This is a very recent occurrence and I felt it needed included into this list. Twice in the past 2 days while pugging I have run into 2 premades who after securing the win and pug group members quitting, offered 1v1's.
First occasion I was on my Sent GWF and the rogue that stayed with me was offered a 1v1.
The rogue came down from the campfire and was swiftly ambushed, jumped, corpse humped and bad mouthed by the entire group.
They offered me a 1v1 on my GWF and i just sat there ignoring them disappointed how fast they fell from being decent people into trolls.
Second occasion was by a European PvP guild whom after securing the match proceeded to use zone chat to explain in broken english about how poor and bad the other team was. There was 3 left on my team and all 3 were pretty much called every name in the book and some I never knew existed. And the combination of words they put together were never ment to be put together in that manner. (D**kb**ch)... And yes I had a good chuckle out of it, was hard not too... lol...
I did not quit in either of these matches but I forsee myself dropping matches if this starts to become something of the norm.
Firstly, it is a slap in the face of your opponent to enter the PVP arena as you claim "naked". Your opponent gains nothing, you gain everything and lose nothing. This may be why they leave when they see you "naked".
As a trickster rogue, your claim of "naked" except for your Tier 2.5 epic fomorian weapons is ludicrous. You are not naked. You are carrying the best weapon in the game. When you can use said weapons to 1 or 2 shot your opponent from stealth, your claim of nakedness falls short, and is meaningless.
If your opponent is unable to prevail against your so-called "naked " character, you are demeaning thier abilities and thier efforts. If they do prevail, then your excuse is that you were "naked", and obviously absent your "nakedness" they would not have prevailed. In other words a lose lose situation for your opponent, and a show of disrespect to them.
Wear blue armor, blue weapon, rank3 or 4 enchants and lessors, then fight. Win or lose, that is what will earn you the respect you crave.
Finally, to repeat myself, calling someone scum with no justification is an awful thing to do, and reflects very poorly on you.
Firstly, it is a slap in the face of your opponent to enter the PVP arena as you claim "naked". Your opponent gains nothing, you gain everything and lose nothing. This may be why they leave when they see you "naked".
As a trickster rogue, your claim of "naked" except for your Tier 2.5 epic fomorian weapons is ludicrous. You are not naked. You are carrying the best weapon in the game. When you can use said weapons to 1 or 2 shot your opponent from stealth, your claim of nakedness falls short, and is meaningless.
If your opponent is unable to prevail against your so-called "naked " character, you are demeaning thier abilities and thier efforts. If they do prevail, then your excuse is that you were "naked", and obviously absent your "nakedness" they would not have prevailed. In other words a lose lose situation for your opponent, and a show of disrespect to them.
Wear blue armor, blue weapon, rank3 or 4 enchants and lessors, then fight. Win or lose, that is what will earn you the respect you crave.
Finally, to repeat myself, calling someone scum with no justification is an awful thing to do, and reflects very poorly on you.
Firstly. No one knows I'm actually naked. Some people
Have the "naked look" anyway. So no, it's not a sign of disrespect at all. Best weapons in the game(achievable by anyone btw) aren't all that special when I'm not wearing any armor at all.
And if I did lose, I certainly wouldn't turn into the very person I'm griping about in the first place, and start spouting excuses.
Why do you keep saying I'm craving respect btw? Not sure where you dreamed that up but it's obvious your opinion on this matter means all of jack and.......to me so no. I'm not asking, nor do I care to be "respected" by you. If you quit a match simply because you are too lazy to even try, then yah. Your absolute scum in my opinion.
I dont need to create a casual play pvp armor set, because I frequently play completely naked, other then my weapons, giving myself a GS of 3.6k. As does many of my guild members, and guess what? People still quit. Because they are unwilling to try at all. Even against completely naked players. Do you realize how pathetic that is?
Look, you have to realize that you are a pro. It doesn't really matter how hard I "try". You're going to win. Because you have countless hours of practice on me. You have a lot more skill than me when it comes to PVP. You have a build, with feats and powers selected specifically for PVP. I don't have those things, and moreover I don't really have much interest in having a specific PVP build. You have a huge advantage over me when it comes to PVP. You have so much of an advantage that even if you are pugging and play "naked" (with your T2.5 weapons, of course), your team is still likely to beat mine. Which is totally fine with me, by the way. I just choose not to spend my time playing pointless and futile PVP matches.
If I get 5 of my friends and try to organize a pickup football game against an NFL team, it doesn't matter how hard my friends try. We're gonna lose. So if 5 of my friends are interested in playing a pickup football game, we're not going to deliberately choose to play against an NFL team. We're gonna pick 5 other casual, amateur players.
So what you are really doing, is berating amateurs for "not trying hard enough" when they are playing a professional-caliber team. Just stop it. You should understand instead that being a professional means that you are only going to get competitive matches against other professional teams. You should not expect amateur teams to play to your level; moreover you should not expect amateur teams to have to put up with a degrading and humiliating loss every single time.
Even if we all disagree with one another, let's try to keep the pointed comments to a minimum, please. We are/should be posting here to help out one another and build off of one another rather than the converse.
Also, just to clarify (this was bothering my diction-brain very much): a professional is a person engaged in an activity as a main paid occupation. So, the only way munkey81 would be professional is if NW PvP was a paid job. While I don't know if this is the case, I doubt it. So, he's technically an amateur, and a very skilled one at that.
In my experience, leaving in PvP generally always leads to negative feelings on both sides. To the leaver's side, they lose hope in having a chance in winning (though it technically is possible, just very unlikely). To the winning side, they lose the hope of having a competitive match. So, I dislike leavers, but not unconditionally. I always keep an open mind and sound logic with me as not to become unnecessarily angry at a fellow player. Some people disconnect unintentionally. I've had to leave my computer a few times while PvPing because I was needed somewhere else in real life. This doesn't make me a bad person, just one that has been affected by circumstance. Of course, the majority of leavers leave intentionally, which is very annoying. So, why do players leave?
Discontent. This is basically it right here. Discontent with the situation. Playing with a bunch of fresh, green-geared 60's against a full-geared premade? While such a match should still be played in my opinion, the green team already starts with a dread in their minds. Someone who wants to play against equally geared opponents might leave to save themselves time, thus causing the rest of the green team to get completely stomped. However, in most cases, the green team would've lost (relatively badly) anyway, and the leaver didn't make an impact on the outcome the match would have. This doesn't justify the leaver abandoning his/her team, but it does go to show that leavers are not completely unreasonable in their motivations. They are also human beings (well, not counting bots here) and have more self-centered rationale. The problem with this paradigm is that PvP is a team game, so if a player enters with the mindset that it is not a team game, the game will suffer. I would rather play that NFL team and possibly get pointers from them than just straight up quit, as that would be unfair on the whole.
Now, regarding specific comments made over the course of this thread.
munkey81: Your anger at leavers is justified. I get pretty annoyed when people on my team leave seven games in a row. However, no matter how annoying such things can get, it isn't an adequate reason to mudsling on the leavers. We are all entitled to our opinions and we all must face the reality of the consequences our opinions create. For leavers, leaving a bad match is the best thing to do. That is their opinion, so at least they stand for what they believe in. However, such a behavior harms everyone else, and the leavers must face this knowledge and acknowledge such behavior is far more self-centered than collectivist. If our goal is to be Utilitarian and bring about the greatest good, what would bring about the greatest good?
I do not approve of the word scum and preserve such strong language only for those that really deserve it, the scum of the earth that actually harm people's lives. In the game, our experience is entirely what we make it, so our anger is our own fault. I shall never challenge the integrity of a player in the game, for that is what they are: a player. NW is a game, and I play to enjoy interacting with others, even those that aren't the nicest in the world. Leaving a PvP match isn't a crime; it's just incredibly rude.
While I do find it worthwhile to limit myself to give myself a challenge and to improve, not having any gear but weapons equipped is not the way I would've done it. As others have stated, while it may not be your intent, it does place your opponent in a disadvantage, ego-wise. While I know you would never use your lack of gear as an excuse for losing, the opponent would and he/she would not feel victorious even if they did win. The way I limit myself is I do not use weapon/armor enchants. I've been playing since before Beta Weekend 3, and I have only ever made a single weapon enchant for my PvE GF: Greater Bronzewood. So, while I am still geared, I cannot depend on enchants to do work for me and must rely on my own positioning to win.
pointsman:
But here's the big difference, I think. To me, the fun part of PVP isn't killing people. It's having a competitive match, and a chance at victory for my team.
So, if a match isn't going to be competitive, there isn't fun to be had. While I don't feel that way, I completely respect your opinion. However, consider what everyone else thinks when you leave. So, we must ask ourselves if we are playing the game to satisfy our own wants or to play the game with other people. If you're playing to interact with other people, then interact with them in defeat. Go down with the sinking ship, don't abandon the sailors. That would be just cold, like cold-turkey. Cold-turkey doesn't taste as good as warm turkey.
And, as I mentioned earlier, be careful with your use of the word 'professional'. Just to avoid confusion.
abeliever: I respect the fact you were willing to state your opinion despite reservations. Communication is what makes humans special, so always be willing to communicate. However, you could've communicated your message with less malice. Be sure to try and avoid being an instigator of strife, for that breaks down communication into an overemotional argument. Emotions can be a nice asset to make a point, but still. I try to limit any emotion whatsoever, and it has served me well in many instances.
Also, munkey81 hasn't always been in the position he is. He had to work up to the level of skill he's at now, so proposing he lower his gear to try and put himself on the same level as other players is not fair on him. Besides, I use blue gear on my TR, and I do just fine. I don't claim to be able to defeat the best TR's (I know, I was killed a lot by Alysin a few weeks ago ) but I have defeated some highly geared folks, and I don't get any respect for it. As far as I know, my name isn't really out there at all because of my average toons. Lowering gear by a relatively small margin will not change anything. The thing is, he's good at the game, and he wants to have a better quality experience. Now, while the attitude can be lost, he is entitled to his opinion of wanting to enjoy more fully-competitive games.
Everyone Else: I'm glad to see that people at least respond to one another. By giving input, we all get more output, so please continue sharing and communicating. However, we only achieve effective communication when we respond with the intend to help, not put down, one another, so playing off of emotion will only make things worse. Let's keep constructive posts going, and hopefully we'll all get something good from this :cool:
Some people disconnect unintentionally. I've had to leave my computer a few times while PvPing because I was needed somewhere else in real life. This doesn't make me a bad person, just one that has been affected by circumstance. Of course, the majority of leavers leave intentionally, which is very annoying.
Have to say that despite melodywhr's well thought out post, this is the overwhelming point. Yes, people do get disconnected unintentionally. People have real life emergencies that demand their immediate attention. These things happen. That being said, the overwhelming majority of leavers are just quitters, plain and simple. Entitled little children who don't give a fark about the rest of the queues experience. How to punish them without also punishing folks that have to leave for an honest reason? I'm not sure. Maybe a punishment can be instituted after X amount of transgressions in Y amount of time?
After a certain amount of time, a team should be given the option to depart with what little grace is left and get their 1 point.
This will save lots of time for both sides.
Seriously, if a team can't progress and are under siege next to camp fire, They had better vote on surrender rather sitting around waiting for time to pass.
when all my pugs leave when i solo que, i either ask for 1v1 (sometimes even 2v1) and absolutely embarrass their entire premade. if they are being dum and not 1v1ing, on TR i jump a squishy cw/tr and escape and repeat, on gwf i just tank all 5 as they attempt to take me below 90% hp.
U R 2 E Z- SENT IV GWF undefeated 16k GS
FaceRoller- regen recovery TR (put on the shelf for now) 14k GS
Supreme CHAOS - IV GF (put on the shelf for now) 16k GS
White Khalifa- tene/hp/regen CW (retired) 11k GS (tene)
Death From Above- TANK ranger 16kGS
(all halfling everything)
Comments
Actually, paper and pen player here. Did it all the time.
Maybe your D&D was a little ... limited.
Every group I've been in for going on 20 years has had PvP in some shape form or fashion. And that's not including the simple concept that it's the dungeon master controlling the monster's actions which makes the game worth playing.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Sorry but I find this quite a bit optimistic. I'm not a dedicated PvPer by far, I like both PvE and PvP, but both sides are seriously lacking. Basically the thing that keeps the game from falling apart (personal opinion) is the amazing combat system and (lately) frequent events (bu they are starting to get old real fast too). While there are many good things in NWO and they should be appreciated, there are also many aspects of the game that just makes a person that is used to MMOs and RPGs stop and wonder "What the hell were they thinking?". A few examples, enumerated without any special order:
- no matchmaking/ladders in a very competitive and (still) populated PvP scene, no special rewards of any sort to encourage competition
- no dual-spec
- easily exploitable dungeons (efforts are being made to fix them, they need to be recognized)
- blue drops in epic dungeons (major fail)
- no boss mechanics in dungeons, everything is...
- ... more adds, more adds, more adds, more red zones
- lore, story&setting:
I played NWN and BG games. Worse graphic/audio engine, yet the story managed to be fascinating and involving, even if it was again just a "save the world" variation. This game don't make me feel involved in any way other than "I want more loot".
These things and many others are frustrating most players, PvPers or PvErs alike. I know quite a few friends that were extremely active and just gradually stopped logging, and I have other friends that are contemplating stopping playing NWO as well. Others log just to invoke or play a PvP or two, and it's over.
My personal conclusion is that these two modules we got are too little and not what is truly needed. The Fey thing was pretty much a joke. It's enough for me to see the fashion items (wings? wth...) and it's summarizing the whole module. Also, how can you make a CW set so bad that basically no CW out there wears it?!? What kind of item designers does Cryptic have?
Shadowmantle is basically more of the same. Nothing has changed but the theme, and to defeat the main enemy in the story in a dungeon that has basically nothing truly epic in it is just... speechless.
Sure, new blood might refresh the numbers of players for a while, but how about we keep the veterans too?
Player. Generated. Content.
It's one of the reasons I stand behind the crowd that says 'PvP drives the game'. It's player generated. It's constantly evolving. It's not that PvP is bad, it's that there aren't enough tools for the players to make it better.
Private matches. Custom maps. Open world conquest zones. Leaderboards and stats.
The same can be said for PvE. If the devs feed us a dungeon, we're through it in days, sometimes hours. We constantly digest this stuff. So to keep players playing, there's two major hooks in PvE: make it a grind to get every ounce of power (30 Frozen Heart runs, anyone?), or let players make new content.
Foundry does a great job with this. But other things, like player housing, more guild mechanics (ala STO), auction house economy (which BoP affects negatively), character customization (looted/crafted fashion items, additions to mounts/pets), roleplay tools (more emotes, private venues, stances, etc), and even leaderboards and stats.
There are plenty of ways to make the game fun and draw us into it. Feeding us tightly controlled storylines like Feywild and Shadowmantle has the shortest gameplay value. Giving us the ability to create more of our own stories ... that's where the real replayability is.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Your post is spot on.
I agree that the PvP in this game has some missing features that should have been included from day one. PvP, however, is a working (yet incomplete) system, whereas the PvE end game content is completely dysfunctional.
The prevalence of dungeon exploits in NW have created a player culture where exploiting has become the norm. This has completely turned me off to PvE in this game.
Having said that, I completely understand why people do it. You have buggy boss fights where you can get one shot by an invisible red zone. You have generally poor boss design where infinite add spawn takes the place of challenging and dynamic fights. You also have a terrible imbalance of risk versus reward. These frustrations coupled with the wide availability of exploits that are addressed very slowly (if at all) and it's no wonder that PvE is in the state it is in.
At least the PvP in this game is working and the combat system is well executed and engaging. The challenge and fun of PvP is its own reward, even without a working bracket system, duels, more map and game variety, and other features one would expect in an MMO. To me PvP is the only end game right now because it is the only end game that is functional.
The one great feature this game has over other MMOs is the Foundry, but Cryptic has failed to realize the full potential of this free player-generated content. Take the best of the Foundry and add balanced rewards. Also, people are begging to create PvP maps to be implemented in the game. If someone offers to do design work for you for free to add content that is conspicuously missing from the game you say yes.
Having my "team" flee when they see the opposition and leave me to get ganked isn't fun the first time and even less fun when this pretty much summarises every pug match I tried to endure(I had enough and quit, something I try not to do very often). I think my GF is going to be consigned to the invoke bin, especially with module two making her worthless in PvE as well. Looks like TR is the only class I'll bother PvPing on and TR/CW are the only classes I'll bother taking into dungeons.
Seriously, if you want a balanced round, at least the same classes and a similar GS should be on both sides.
It's really unfair if I kill someone with two shots of ray of enfeeblement or if i have to face exotic parties consisting of 2 GFs and a DC.
It doesn't even seem like cryptic is trying to get normal matches.
How do you expect to get better at something if you are completely unwilling to try?
Not all premades are good my friend.
This is a video of me solo Q'ing(pugging) against a full 5 man Premade.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXxeQucpTy8&feature=player_detailpage
It's disappointing to see people do this. Many premades aren't full of amazing PvPers, and even when they are, why be so rude as to ditch?
One of my matches today was in a group full of 8-10k GS players against a full premade, and most of my team spent the match off in la-la land, not kicking bodies or rezzing team members at easy opportunities, messing around off of nodes, sitting in the campfire, etc. Definitely put a cramp in my style, but I got a few kills out of it and made friends with one of the "enemy" players after.
Cool story aside, the point is that leaving PvP matches just because of guild tags or an obvious disadvantage in collective gear or skill level is inconsiderate and not doing anyone any favors. Better not to queue at all.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
People leave almost immediately. Quitting is lame, unfair, cowardly and ruins everyone's time. I wish your entire account was locked
For 5 hours if you quit a match.
People always talking about there teams GS. It's silly to me that you even care
To go inspecting your whole team and using that as a reason to quit. I never...ever...ever...inspect anyone on my team, because I couldn't possibly care less. I join pvp because it's fun for me. Pvp isn't fair, it's not balanced and it never will be, and that's why I like it. It's the unknown. If my team is lesser geared, new, or just downright bad. Well guess what, I guess I have to try a little now.
PvP leavers....you are the worst of the worst. I'm my eyes you are complete worthless scum and don't deserve to have the option of Q'ing for PvP...
That's funny, that is also why I (occasionally) queue for PVP, because I am looking for a fun experience.
But here's the big difference, I think. To me, the fun part of PVP isn't killing people. It's having a competitive match, and a chance at victory for my team. If my team wins but I end up with zero kills, that is totally fine with me.
I don't think the same can be said of many of the 'elite' PVPers.
Fair play
When it come to playing premades, I'm a little mystified why the really good teams bother queuing. They tend to steamroller their random opposition at the first encounter at which point someone usually quits. After the next spawn it's over even quicker and someone else quits, then it's properly over. 2 minutes in, with no challenge to speak of.
Rather amusingly I met a player from such a match 2 games later. He quit after 5 mins in a close game. Guess some people don't like it when they have to work for it.
One the flip side, I've had quite a few games end 1000 to 999 in the last few weeks. Really good stuff. And as has been pointed out not all premades are stacked with BiS and perfect enchants.
NW PvP. When it's good, it's very, very good, when it's bad, it's awful.
It is with a great deal of reluctance that I have decided to reply to your post.
First of all your derogatory insulting of non-epic geared players belittles you. It would be wise to tone that down.
You, yourself have maximum tier armor, weapons, and enchantments; in addition to the best combination of same for the various classes you play. Further, you are a professional pvp player who has been playing for over 5 months of continuous almost daily playing, with a total of most likely over 1500 hours of pvp play time. When you step into the pvp arena against a casual group, it is akin to a 400lb of pure hard muscle mid-twenties NFL LINEBACKER playing a full contact game against a few middle-aged couch potatoes who decided to throw a ball around for a bit of week -end fun. There is just no fair comparison.
You have no need to inspect gear since you are already wearing the best.
It is fun for you because your superior gear and experience means that at an individual level you will win the vast majority of the time.
If you wish to earn the respect that you seek, here is what you should do:
Create a casual play pvp armor set consisting of blue armor and weapon, rank3 and 4 enchantments, and lessers. Q solo with that, record a few games and post it.
In the meantime, quit calling people scum. There is nothing especially special about you that entitles you to have players enter the game and play solely and in such a way to keep you, and only you, entertained; especially, and particularly, if they are not finding that particular portion of playing, or playtime, or playing at that time, entertaining.
the problem with such a general statement is there are varied reasons as to why people might quit a pvp match. you may be thinking of a specific group when you make this statement, but that is not how your message is conveyed. in my opinion, there is no true "guide" to quitting since everyone is different and involved in their own personal situations. and for that reason, you cannot attack every person that's ever left a pvp match. it's just simply unfair to do so.
for example... fred is trying to get in one last match before he's called down to dinner. and sure enough, right in the middle of the match, dinner's ready. and his team is winning. let's say fred tells his mom that he's going to finish the match and she's not having it because fred does this all the time. so she pulls the plug on the router. boom. fred's quit the match... his team mates are disappointed. and the other team ends up catching up and they end up winning. yeah, this sucks for fred and his teammates. but it was completely out of fred's control.
example two... fred has just joined a match and realizes that he didn't mean to join the pvp queue, he wanted to join the CTA skirmish queue. so he quits the match. it should be early enough in the match so someone else in the queue should take his place.
example three... two minutes into a match, fred realizes he's playing against a premade and they're decked to the gills and everyone on his team seems to be brand new level 60s. and they're losing badly. sure enough, two people on his team quit. then one more. it's now 5 v 2 and the opposing team are camped just below his spawn area. no one is talking or agreeing to 1v1s... just complete slaughter. let's also add into this that fred is trying to get his last bit of epic T1 pvp gear and this would have been the match that would have afforded that for him. but he has 300 points and 7 deaths. that means no glory rewards. and there's at least seven more minutes to go. what's fred to do?
example four... fred is having a bad day and thinks that some pvp should get his mind off of things. but nothing is working out right. all the pug teams he's been queued with are all over the place and he's already lost two games in a row. at the beginning of the third game, all of his teammates run for their home cap and fred knows this is off to a bad start. he goes to the middle cap and gets slaughtered by a premade team. fred's had enough and he quits the game.
the point is, if you focus only on your own specific experience and judge everyone else based on your current level of awareness, you're only seeing your side of the picture and it's unfair to judge someone else simply because they aren't playing the way you want them to play. this is just a game and real life definitely comes first. after all, one of the reasons why some people enjoy pvp vs pve is that it's a living, breathing thinker on the other end playing in a (hopefully) competitive way.
But yeah, point taken.
I'll inspect my own team, but it's to get an idea of what kind of support I might expect. I'm much more comfortable standing near the 13k DC than I am next to the 6k DC. But no, I won't leave a match because of it. I sympathize with people who find PvP utterly frustrating because almost all of their match-ups are unbalanced, and I do hope that Cryptic implements an optional queue for fresh or super-casual 60s, but if it bothers someone that much, my advice is to save themselves the aggravation and not queue.
PvP quitters need to be unable to join another match until their previous match expires, and players should be penalized for sitting in the campfire for too long. Forcibly eject them from the match if they remain in the campfire longer than 60 seconds and inflict the aforementioned quitter penalty on them.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Great points, and that's why I personally advocate reasonable penalties that allow for the possibility that someone might need to leave a match for a variety of reasons while preventing people from hopping from queue to queue until they find a favorable match-up, which I believe is what's going on most of the time, anyway.
Example 3 = it happens. I'd rather Fred have to go heat up a Hot Pocket before his next match than be able to jump back in right away, because that's highly abusable and currently rampant.
Example 4 = sucks to be Fred. We've all been there. One might feel justified in ditching a willfully bad team, but again, not being able to requeue instantly should be an acceptable trade-off that helps reduce abuse.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Does anyone know what happens if everyone on one side quits? Does the game just end there and then?
<edit> I'm in favour of quitter penalties for the first person to quit from a side. After that, the other 4 are screwed and should be able to leave freely
</edit>
Just to clarify, I am not wearing the "best" gear that you say.
I dont need to create a casual play pvp armor set, because I frequently play completely naked, other then my weapons, giving myself a GS of 3.6k. As does many of my guild members, and guess what? People still quit. Because they are unwilling to try at all. Even against completely naked players. Do you realize how pathetic that is?
I realize that life happens and there are many reasons why a person quits a match. I'm not saying anything about that.
What I am talking about is the people that say "When I see a premade, I just quit". How can anyone, ever justify that is beyond me.
So you want to pvp, but not if its against a premade, and not if someone on your team has a low gs, and not if you have 2 clerics, and not if the other team has 3 trs, and not if everyone doesnt do exactly what I say, when I say it, and only when the stars are perfectly aligned to my satisfaction that will further my gaming ability to roflstomp someone in pvp.
This is my favorite part.
I'm not special at all, I'm just like everyone else. I never...ever...try and force anyone to play in any particular way. Anyone that knows me will tell you that.
I agree with you, that you should be allowed to come and go as you please. But, there should absolutely be a penalty for someone "leaving party" in a PvP match if each team is a full team. It ruins it for everyone else.
Wow. That's quite some vitriol spewing from your mouth there. In my experience, solo queuing as a TR or a sentinel(be it DC or GWF) is more enjoyable than solo queuing with other classes/builds simply because you have the ability to withstand more unbalanced odds without getting steamrolled to the campfire every 15 seconds. Not everyone is good at PvP. Many just do it for their entry level T1 or for the daily.
A fun match for me is one what I feel I have made a decent contribution to a win(or indeed, a close loss) or one where I feel both me and my team, even if vastly out competed have done well for ourselves(ie, "that went better than expected"). I don't get this feeling when I'm one of two people left and the entire opposition team is standing under the campfire refusing duels. I'll leave, I don't care about the daily RAD, I just want to have fun, this goes both ways.
While having your team quit isn't fun, neither is having your team steamrolled and the opposition insist on you coming out to feed their ego. People like that give PvP a bad reputation and if in a premade, give their guilds a bad reputation.
Agree wholeheartedly Melody.
I wouldn't have a problem with not being able to queue until the match is over. However I feel that the campfire eject is a little harsh. If the game detects that players are simply not leaving the campfire and their team has under 1/3rd of the opposition's score(provided the opposition score is over 500) or more than 3/5 of the team has a score under 300 then the game should simply end. There is no sense to prolonging a match that is already won.
A couple of things would make PvP a little smoother, though:
- As you say, the match should end after a certain period of time if no players are playing. I would like to see that happen after the 500 point mark if 0 players are remaining on one side.
- After 500 points (or 5 minutes, or some other arbitrary time), a side should be permitted to surrender by team vote.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Firstly, it is a slap in the face of your opponent to enter the PVP arena as you claim "naked". Your opponent gains nothing, you gain everything and lose nothing. This may be why they leave when they see you "naked".
As a trickster rogue, your claim of "naked" except for your Tier 2.5 epic fomorian weapons is ludicrous. You are not naked. You are carrying the best weapon in the game. When you can use said weapons to 1 or 2 shot your opponent from stealth, your claim of nakedness falls short, and is meaningless.
If your opponent is unable to prevail against your so-called "naked " character, you are demeaning thier abilities and thier efforts. If they do prevail, then your excuse is that you were "naked", and obviously absent your "nakedness" they would not have prevailed. In other words a lose lose situation for your opponent, and a show of disrespect to them.
Wear blue armor, blue weapon, rank3 or 4 enchants and lessors, then fight. Win or lose, that is what will earn you the respect you crave.
Finally, to repeat myself, calling someone scum with no justification is an awful thing to do, and reflects very poorly on you.
I solo queue and Premade many times a day. During the solo queue's I fight and continue to fight until the bell rings unless one of the following situations comes to pass.
1. Someone quits the match very early. Especially before the 100 point mark is hit.
They run down, die, spam their help button 47 times and get upset noone rez's them even though a full scale war is going on around their hovering corpse. These people suually quit and put the team at a disadvantage for the rest of the match. So I will assess the situation, look at my team, look at what we are up against and make a judgement on chances of winning / fun / learning something. If my time would be better spent in another match, I will leave.
2. Mouthy party members or rude behavior by party members.
I like to try to think of myself as a player with morals and play a fair respectful game. Sure I get frustrated, everyone does. Sure there are times I am one of those mouthy party members. This is born out of pure frustration and it passes very quickly, even after a match I will apologize to the person I offended and end up talking it out. But constant rude behavior and **** talking is something I will not stand for. One of my favorites is a low gear score ( wearing mismatched gear ) calling the party noobs or whatnot, for not following their lead or doing something they demanded. I always get a chuckle out of these guys. But if it's something that persists, yes I will leave. As a matter of fact I had this situation happen earlier while I was pugging on my cleric.
A chain dying GWF complained about not getting heals on our home node ( I was busy supporting node 2 ) from the cleric and proceeded to **** talk for the next 3 minutes. I inspected him after we secured node 2, noticed as a self proclaimed sentinel his defense was barely above 1500 and his deflect near 1000, with no regen. Then kindly retorted if he was unhappy about my heals maybe he should wear gear ment for that specific build. Of course..I was the ****, moron, dumbas*...Someone else in the group had enough of his mouth, cussed him out and left. Which made my decision that much easier. So I said if my heals were so bad seeing they couldnt reach half a map across, I will excuse myself then, and I left. I got better ways to spend my time.
3. Pug vs Premade with bad behavior.
This is a very recent occurrence and I felt it needed included into this list. Twice in the past 2 days while pugging I have run into 2 premades who after securing the win and pug group members quitting, offered 1v1's.
First occasion I was on my Sent GWF and the rogue that stayed with me was offered a 1v1.
The rogue came down from the campfire and was swiftly ambushed, jumped, corpse humped and bad mouthed by the entire group.
They offered me a 1v1 on my GWF and i just sat there ignoring them disappointed how fast they fell from being decent people into trolls.
Second occasion was by a European PvP guild whom after securing the match proceeded to use zone chat to explain in broken english about how poor and bad the other team was. There was 3 left on my team and all 3 were pretty much called every name in the book and some I never knew existed. And the combination of words they put together were never ment to be put together in that manner. (D**kb**ch)... And yes I had a good chuckle out of it, was hard not too... lol...
I did not quit in either of these matches but I forsee myself dropping matches if this starts to become something of the norm.
Very well said.
Firstly. No one knows I'm actually naked. Some people
Have the "naked look" anyway. So no, it's not a sign of disrespect at all. Best weapons in the game(achievable by anyone btw) aren't all that special when I'm not wearing any armor at all.
And if I did lose, I certainly wouldn't turn into the very person I'm griping about in the first place, and start spouting excuses.
Why do you keep saying I'm craving respect btw? Not sure where you dreamed that up but it's obvious your opinion on this matter means all of jack and.......to me so no. I'm not asking, nor do I care to be "respected" by you. If you quit a match simply because you are too lazy to even try, then yah. Your absolute scum in my opinion.
Look, you have to realize that you are a pro. It doesn't really matter how hard I "try". You're going to win. Because you have countless hours of practice on me. You have a lot more skill than me when it comes to PVP. You have a build, with feats and powers selected specifically for PVP. I don't have those things, and moreover I don't really have much interest in having a specific PVP build. You have a huge advantage over me when it comes to PVP. You have so much of an advantage that even if you are pugging and play "naked" (with your T2.5 weapons, of course), your team is still likely to beat mine. Which is totally fine with me, by the way. I just choose not to spend my time playing pointless and futile PVP matches.
If I get 5 of my friends and try to organize a pickup football game against an NFL team, it doesn't matter how hard my friends try. We're gonna lose. So if 5 of my friends are interested in playing a pickup football game, we're not going to deliberately choose to play against an NFL team. We're gonna pick 5 other casual, amateur players.
So what you are really doing, is berating amateurs for "not trying hard enough" when they are playing a professional-caliber team. Just stop it. You should understand instead that being a professional means that you are only going to get competitive matches against other professional teams. You should not expect amateur teams to play to your level; moreover you should not expect amateur teams to have to put up with a degrading and humiliating loss every single time.
Even if we all disagree with one another, let's try to keep the pointed comments to a minimum, please. We are/should be posting here to help out one another and build off of one another rather than the converse.
Also, just to clarify (this was bothering my diction-brain very much): a professional is a person engaged in an activity as a main paid occupation. So, the only way munkey81 would be professional is if NW PvP was a paid job. While I don't know if this is the case, I doubt it. So, he's technically an amateur, and a very skilled one at that.
In my experience, leaving in PvP generally always leads to negative feelings on both sides. To the leaver's side, they lose hope in having a chance in winning (though it technically is possible, just very unlikely). To the winning side, they lose the hope of having a competitive match. So, I dislike leavers, but not unconditionally. I always keep an open mind and sound logic with me as not to become unnecessarily angry at a fellow player. Some people disconnect unintentionally. I've had to leave my computer a few times while PvPing because I was needed somewhere else in real life. This doesn't make me a bad person, just one that has been affected by circumstance. Of course, the majority of leavers leave intentionally, which is very annoying. So, why do players leave?
Discontent. This is basically it right here. Discontent with the situation. Playing with a bunch of fresh, green-geared 60's against a full-geared premade? While such a match should still be played in my opinion, the green team already starts with a dread in their minds. Someone who wants to play against equally geared opponents might leave to save themselves time, thus causing the rest of the green team to get completely stomped. However, in most cases, the green team would've lost (relatively badly) anyway, and the leaver didn't make an impact on the outcome the match would have. This doesn't justify the leaver abandoning his/her team, but it does go to show that leavers are not completely unreasonable in their motivations. They are also human beings (well, not counting bots here) and have more self-centered rationale. The problem with this paradigm is that PvP is a team game, so if a player enters with the mindset that it is not a team game, the game will suffer. I would rather play that NFL team and possibly get pointers from them than just straight up quit, as that would be unfair on the whole.
Now, regarding specific comments made over the course of this thread.
munkey81: Your anger at leavers is justified. I get pretty annoyed when people on my team leave seven games in a row. However, no matter how annoying such things can get, it isn't an adequate reason to mudsling on the leavers. We are all entitled to our opinions and we all must face the reality of the consequences our opinions create. For leavers, leaving a bad match is the best thing to do. That is their opinion, so at least they stand for what they believe in. However, such a behavior harms everyone else, and the leavers must face this knowledge and acknowledge such behavior is far more self-centered than collectivist. If our goal is to be Utilitarian and bring about the greatest good, what would bring about the greatest good?
I do not approve of the word scum and preserve such strong language only for those that really deserve it, the scum of the earth that actually harm people's lives. In the game, our experience is entirely what we make it, so our anger is our own fault. I shall never challenge the integrity of a player in the game, for that is what they are: a player. NW is a game, and I play to enjoy interacting with others, even those that aren't the nicest in the world. Leaving a PvP match isn't a crime; it's just incredibly rude.
While I do find it worthwhile to limit myself to give myself a challenge and to improve, not having any gear but weapons equipped is not the way I would've done it. As others have stated, while it may not be your intent, it does place your opponent in a disadvantage, ego-wise. While I know you would never use your lack of gear as an excuse for losing, the opponent would and he/she would not feel victorious even if they did win. The way I limit myself is I do not use weapon/armor enchants. I've been playing since before Beta Weekend 3, and I have only ever made a single weapon enchant for my PvE GF: Greater Bronzewood. So, while I am still geared, I cannot depend on enchants to do work for me and must rely on my own positioning to win.
pointsman: So, if a match isn't going to be competitive, there isn't fun to be had. While I don't feel that way, I completely respect your opinion. However, consider what everyone else thinks when you leave. So, we must ask ourselves if we are playing the game to satisfy our own wants or to play the game with other people. If you're playing to interact with other people, then interact with them in defeat. Go down with the sinking ship, don't abandon the sailors. That would be just cold, like cold-turkey. Cold-turkey doesn't taste as good as warm turkey.
And, as I mentioned earlier, be careful with your use of the word 'professional'. Just to avoid confusion.
abeliever: I respect the fact you were willing to state your opinion despite reservations. Communication is what makes humans special, so always be willing to communicate. However, you could've communicated your message with less malice. Be sure to try and avoid being an instigator of strife, for that breaks down communication into an overemotional argument. Emotions can be a nice asset to make a point, but still. I try to limit any emotion whatsoever, and it has served me well in many instances.
Also, munkey81 hasn't always been in the position he is. He had to work up to the level of skill he's at now, so proposing he lower his gear to try and put himself on the same level as other players is not fair on him. Besides, I use blue gear on my TR, and I do just fine. I don't claim to be able to defeat the best TR's (I know, I was killed a lot by Alysin a few weeks ago
Everyone Else: I'm glad to see that people at least respond to one another. By giving input, we all get more output, so please continue sharing and communicating. However, we only achieve effective communication when we respond with the intend to help, not put down, one another, so playing off of emotion will only make things worse. Let's keep constructive posts going, and hopefully we'll all get something good from this :cool:
Have to say that despite melodywhr's well thought out post, this is the overwhelming point. Yes, people do get disconnected unintentionally. People have real life emergencies that demand their immediate attention. These things happen. That being said, the overwhelming majority of leavers are just quitters, plain and simple. Entitled little children who don't give a fark about the rest of the queues experience. How to punish them without also punishing folks that have to leave for an honest reason? I'm not sure. Maybe a punishment can be instituted after X amount of transgressions in Y amount of time?
This will save lots of time for both sides.
Seriously, if a team can't progress and are under siege next to camp fire, They had better vote on surrender rather sitting around waiting for time to pass.
FaceRoller- regen recovery TR (put on the shelf for now) 14k GS
Supreme CHAOS - IV GF (put on the shelf for now) 16k GS
White Khalifa- tene/hp/regen CW (retired) 11k GS (tene)
Death From Above- TANK ranger 16kGS
(all halfling everything)
Proud rank 6 of: <Enemy Team>
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]