Differences between class gear of same tier

grungebrmpk

Hey guys, explain me one thing:

Now I begin playing with a GWF, and I see a strange thing compairing his gear with my DC gear:

Both are using the pvp T1 armor, both are chain mail, so:

1 - Why the GWF gives 12 AC and the DC 11??

2 - Suming the stats of the both armors (ignoring enchant slots), the GWF amor have a sum of 1498 stat points, and the DC have 1435 stat points. Doesn't it have to be the same amount? This makes the GWF more strong and with more GS!

3 - I see the fact above in all of the items I compared. Same tier level items, and GWF has more stats then DC

Anyone knows why??

Clerics are really nerfed here every day I feel more of a hero for being pvp with other classes

melodywhr

the GWF wears scalemail.

the DC wears chainmail.

as for the sum of stat points, you have to take into account the type of armor. in this case, plate vs chain.

sockmunkey

Thier armor is not the same. Clerics use chain. Great weapon fighters use scale. So while both are medium armor, they are completly different.

grungebrmpk

Hm ok, I understand the AC difference now, but stats differences in same tier items??
Its really not fair, the tier 1 items must have equal stats points to all classes aren't they??

melodywhr

not necessarily. a control wizard's armor is cloth. trickster rogue's armor is leather. it all depends on the class and its abilities.

grungebrmpk

Look, GWf have almost one rank 4 enchant more then the DC. In that case, this in defense, or recovery, or even in power, would be very good for the cleric.

It seems unbalanced to me. And not because of the AC value, and the armor type does not count regarding the stats. The GS shows it, as this GWF GS is higher then my DC, and we have the same lvl of items. Not balanced at all.

omuhao

grungebrmpk wrote: »

Look, GWf have almost one rank 4 enchant more then the DC. In that case, this in defense, or recovery, or even in power, would be very good for the cleric.

It seems unbalanced to me. And not because of the AC value, and the armor type does not count regarding the stats. The GS shows it, as this GWF GS is higher then my DC, and we have the same lvl of items. Not balanced at all.

I dont understand your point a GWF is a Damage Dealer and Second Tank and a DC is the Healer Class here ofc it will be there some point of difference between them 2, like the other said it isnt the ssame type or armor either on the 2 Classes......Its like nearf GWF or buff DC armor type/AC xD

grungebrmpk

My point is that only because they are differnt classes, the cleric needs to have less GS and power?

Every other game's example:

Paladin Tier Y amor: + 400 points in class stats (i.e. +200 power +100 defense +100 life steal)
Warrior Tier Y armor: +400 points in class stats (i.e. +200 defense +100 power +100 life steal)

IN NW:

GWF Tier 1 PVP armor: +1498 points (392 power, 392 critical, 168 armor pen, 546 defense)
DC Tier 1 PVP armor: +1435 points (427 power, 427 recovery, 315 defense, 266 life steal)

Understand my point now? It makes GWF stronger, and with more GS

omuhao

So you wanna say you want be Damage dealer like GWF as a DC? Or did i get it wrong here since you are all up to power and how powerfull GWF is and DC aint....i still dont get your point here what you want to accomplish with this. Those are 2 different classes 2 different armors and

grungebrmpk wrote: »

My point is that only because they are differnt classes, the cleric needs to have less GS and power?

Every other game's example:
Paladin Tier Y amor: + 400 points in class stats (i.e. +200 power +100 defense +100 life steal)
Warrior Tier Y armor: +400 points in class stats (i.e. +200 defense +100 power +100 life steal)

This is not every other game it is NW a game for itself.

fakatik

grungebrmpk wrote: »

Understand my point now? It makes GWF stronger, and with more GS

I completely agree with you sir. Weapon fighters are definitely stronger than healers.

So?

melodywhr

you're comparing apples to oranges. a paladin and warrior both use edged weapons.

the gwf uses edge weapons and the dc uses a symbol.

gwf is a melee class.
dc is a caster.

their focus can't be the same because of their differences. class balance then has to be weighed out in some other way.

grungebrmpk

Omg, guys you are so blind arent you??

omuhao and melodywhr

The fact that cleric is healer and gwf is dps, does not mean that the cleric need to have less efficiency and gear score.

The power I was saying is efficency, not the ingame stat power.

Look at the numbers (independent of the class role, or armor class please). Clerics receive less points in their own stats that GWF receives for their own stats. Understand now?

A better example:

Warrior t1 pvp set: + 500 points in warrior stats (300 damage, 100 critical, 100 defense)
MAGE t1 pvp set: + 500 points in MAGE stats (300 spell damage, 100 critical, 100 magic defense)

Just because its NW doens't mean that GWF need to have more GS and stats points the any other class, not only the clerics.

omuhao

Have you compared the other classes and not only GWF and DC to say it shouldnt be different you cannot point out the whole GS on just 2 classes you compare paladin to warrior now warrior and mage did you try here GWF and TR or GWF and CW compare those 2 classes like you do in your examples.or even DC and any other class and like you said in the first post "Both are using the pvp T1 armor, both are chain mail" so how did you come to compare warrior and mage, like i said try comparing any other class and see the difference.

grungebrmpk

Yes, TR has less stats points and GS then GWF. And it's more equal to DC, probably the same, because the TR pvp set have +X Health Points, and can't be summed like other stats. But the GS that me and my friend TR that have items with the same tier lvl then me and the GWF, is the same as mine, and less then the GWF. I don't compare data to the GF and the CW.

But the case is, I'm a game/system developer/designer since 2003, and this don't make any logic at all. I can understand that number can be different, but in pratice they are the same, but it can't be reflected in gearscore, never. If I have the tier 1 pvp set, with the same jewlery and other stuff that a gwf with the tier 1 pvp set, we should have the same GS at leats, how it can be different?

Doesn't have to compare all classes to see that something is wrong here.

omuhao

As far as i can tell its the difference of the rols they have ingame, a DC isnt supposed to be tanky wearing a Symbols and beeing ranged healer class as an GWF whos Damage Dealer who goes on the Frontline be it PWE or PVP (PVP vise here since you tooke the T1 set items as comparison).

sockmunkey

grungebrmpk wrote: »

Ywes, TR has less stats points and GS then GWF. And it's more equal to DC, probably the same, because the TR pvp set have +X Health Points, and can't be summed like other stats.

Glad you pointed that out. Because the GWFs 2 set bonus is, wait for it......hitpoints.

So even you admit its not all that easy to compare the two.

ordensmarschall

They are different classes with different armours and different purposes. Gear score's purpose in this game is simply for gating the different level dungeons, it is not a measure of anything else. Scale Mail is more protective than Chainmail and so should provide better stats. GWFs and GFs are meat shields and need more stats to survive and protect the caster classes. Clerics and Mages do not the the number of stats because they have fighter classes to protect them, if the group is working correctly.

melodywhr

i would have to agree that you can't compare two of the classes and say they are unbalanced without taking into account all of the classes, however exactly what is being used in the overall class balancing can only be speculated. since this is an MMO and we are all familiar with class balance changes, then i would surmise that it isn't as easy as comparing gear stats. you have to take in consideration all of the different power/feat combinations with the different gear and enchant ranks and armor/weapon enchants of all the different classes... not a simple task, i'd surmise.

serowforsaken

Maybe both classes scale differently?

andferne3

Why do GWF have slightly more stats compared to a DC. Maybe it has to do with them being a strictly melee class. Those extra points are there to help make up for the ranged disadvantage he has compared to a DC, or CW. Just like a Rogue has stealth to help try and counter that ranged advantage against DC/CW.

Every class should not be the same, neither should their gear.

grungebrmpk

andferne3

I can understand it, but what I can't is the difference on GS.
I can see right the fact of 2 characters, with exactly the same tier of itens (pvp set, seal jewlery and belt, pvp weapon and offhand, same rank of enchants and same tier of shirt and pants). This should be the same, the way I'm analysing it, the same grind generate different GS numbers, just because of the class).

andferne3

Exactly. The gear differences is there to make up for the advantages/disadvantages of classes. It be because of melee, range, stealth, healing, blocking, etc. If all the gear was exactly the same then those Core mechanics would have to be reworked.

If that happened then all you would have is cookie cutter class (Instead of just cookie cutter builds). Because everything would be the same. The different classes and the gear that comes with them make for difference play styles. I'm all for diversity.

bkloes

This is probably one of those times when mama would have said "keep your mouth shut"....Might get flamed but ****!! I read the first page of this post and people DON'T F'ing READ!! The original point was that the stat distribution was unequal...meaning you add up all the points (defense, deflect, recovery and so on)......GWF gets more points than DC for SAME rank of Armor. In real life you might find some truth to this but for a game it is the definition of unbalanced....Obviously different armor is going to offer greater protection stats but a DC's holy armor and its icons runes or other religious elements would offer some benefits (within a game) to make it far. For example....HP or recovery? This was all the OP was trying to stat, which is a valid point:)

tarmalen

What? 63 points difference?

You really think 63 points means squat?

P.S. DC can HEAL.

Pretty lame troll.

irdillon

grungebrmpk wrote: »

Hey guys, explain me one thing:

Now I begin playing with a GWF, and I see a strange thing compairing his gear with my DC gear:

Both are using the pvp T1 armor, both are chain mail, so:

1 - Why the GWF gives 12 AC and the DC 11??

2 - Suming the stats of the both armors (ignoring enchant slots), the GWF amor have a sum of 1498 stat points, and the DC have 1435 stat points. Doesn't it have to be the same amount? This makes the GWF more strong and with more GS!

3 - I see the fact above in all of the items I compared. Same tier level items, and GWF has more stats then DC

Anyone knows why??

Clerics are really nerfed here every day I feel more of a hero for being pvp with other classes

Let's just make all classes do the same damage, have the same encounters and wear the same armor. K?

grungebrmpk

Yeah, trolls definitivelly need to learn how to read.
Ty bkloes for reading and understand my point.

tarmalen, you're the troll here. 63 points in an item-based game sure means difference.

andferne3

This is not the point. The numbers beeing different can be explained by scale and power engine, thats fine. But the difference in GS is the problem. At this point, my friend and I, who have made the same grind, and get all the items in the same level, have different GS. Result? He can do CN, and I don't. Understand what impacts those differences can make? This should be equal, for the game's engine sake.

irdillon

When you got nothing good to say, just don't say nothing.

neskolf

grungebrmpk wrote: »

the TR pvp set have +X Health Points, and can't be summed like other stats.

It appears that the comparative equation is 4 HP = 1 point of gear score. So, an item that adds 600 hp is adding the equivalent of 150 GS.

tarmalen

grungebrmpk wrote: »

Yeah, trolls definitivelly need to learn how to read.
Ty bkloes for reading and understand my point.

tarmalen, you're the troll here. 63 points in an item-based game sure means difference.

andferne3

This is not the point. The numbers beeing different can be explained by scale and power engine, thats fine. But the difference in GS is the problem. At this point, my friend and I, who have made the same grind, and get all the items in the same level, have different GS. Result? He can do CN, and I don't. Understand what impacts those differences can make? This should be equal, for the game's engine sake.


irdillon

When you got nothing good to say, just don't say nothing.

Seriously...if you are short 63 points to enter CN then you have other issues. Like entering CN in T1 gear.

You are whining about SIXTY-THREE points. Don't tell me that is not trolling.

So follow your own advise and don't say anything.

josiahiyon

Interesting observation.

Amazing amount of trolls and/or people incapable of understanding your observation.

The game does directly scale effective-gs with AC, although it's surprisingly not linear.

Tier-2 helm GS | Tier-2 AC by class:

• CW: 926 | 7
• TR: 953 | 8 (assumed health / 4 = 1 gs)
• DC: 1030 | 12
• GWF: 1074 | 13
• GF: 1107 | 14

Graph those against each other, and you'll see it's not a perfect linear relation; appears to be a discontinuity from DC to GWF.

For those claiming the GS difference isn't much: keep in mind that this is true on 4 pieces of gear, so max GS difference (GF vs CW) is (1107 - 926) * 4 = 724. When the game limits your queue ability on GS, 724 can make a difference.

Also keep in mind that other non-set armor pieces likely reflect a similar effective-GS difference. With this in mind, a 9300GS GF is gear-equivalent to a 7780GS CW (20% decrease).

*edit* to note that it's possible for class specific feats (etc) to make up the GS difference for such things as queue-ability, but that's just speculation.

thebriman

grungeprmpk -- I get your point on the difference between the class sets, but I think you're getting more hung up on GS than you should. GS is, at best, a very general idea of someone's overall gear level. It's a very imperfect system, and this is only one of the many quirks. Since your GS is really just a simple summation of relevant stats, things other than gear affect it. Any class which has more stat boosting feats will also potentially have significantly higher GS than other classes with the same tier of gear. Similarly, only actual stats increase your GS, so 4 piece set bonuses don't increase it while 2 piece bonuses do, meaning that going 2/2 with T1 sets will often get you a higher GS than a full set of T2.

My assumption is that the stats on the sets are balanced around how effective they make the classes overall, and are factored in conjunction with things like feats, powers, etc. rather than in isolation. 50 points of recovery for a CW may have a totally different impact than 50 points of deflection for a GWF despite both being useful stats for the respective classes.

I understand your line of thinking -- i.e. that there should be a straightforward equation like T1 gloves=x number of total stats, but that just doesn't seem to be the way things are set up in NW.

Just my 2 pennies.

ratjam

woah, it's a big loss of stats in the end for both tr and cw, if you consider 4 pieces. Is this true for all purple pieces? Im not going to do the maths my own