Various technical and ethical questions

stonebarr

Hi all,

Apologies in advance for lumping questions into a single thread, but better than spamming the forums I suppose. So I've been playing for several months now and have gotten through most of the basic questions. What it seems that I have left are harder ones to answer and I was hoping for comments on them. A lot of these are probably subjective without inside information, so I'd appreciate comments from people who have direct experience with server admins or know the community and mores better than I do.

1) Ethics questions.

1a) I personally believe it is ethical to walk around fights if it doesn't require exploiting terrain, and that its okay to push monsters off of bridges and such. That seems to be as designed. However is it considered ethical to re-log your character in order to get the dungeon delve chest? Or so-called "pre-clear" runs? I was told that this was given a tacit approval by the admins in some thread but I do not have a link and it seems questionable.

1b) When is it unethical to change instances? Say if I'm running around my favorite killing ground just passing time. I do a couple loops and then a few people start horning in on my favorite killing areas. Is it bad to change instances then? As a bonus, I'd have new resource nodes to go after, so in that regard it's a bonus for me. I'm not talking about one loop, change instance, wash rinse repeat, but more when people are hogging my loop. Still I could change my instance 5 times in a half hour due to this, especially during busy times. I feel guilty about getting more resource nodes this way, but not too guilty about changing because its crowded. Whats the official stance, if any?

1c) At what point is it responsible to report bad behavior to the admins, and what types of things are likely to get action? And what is pointless to report? There is no apparent attempt to stop /LFG advertised "exp" and even "glitch" runs through dungeons, so it seems like enforcement is minimal if any. Is it even worth my time to report people? And what kinds of transgressions are worth the bother to document? I know this is a somewhat subjective question, but perhaps other people know what people are actually getting banned for if anything (it doesn't seem to be dungeon exploiting). I don't want to waste my time creating documentation that wont be used.

2) Aggro. Do we really know how this is computed? I usually play a DC (12k GS with about 5k power) and its pretty obvious that I grab aggro when I cause damage. But sometimes newly spawned monsters come after me, or even monsters that seemed to have just taken damage from someone else. Usually i can lose their focus by dodging pell-mell through the thick of the melee, as they'll take some damage following me and change their attention to someone else (monsters are like small children in this regard - "look shiny!") Sliding through the melee is dangerous (you could time it bad and get one-shotted) but it usually works.

3) Ioun Stone and other attribute pets. What are the limitations on these? For example, could you use a Fey Blessing on a pet (just an example, I don't know if there are any utility spots on such companions)? Are there some things that just don't transfer, other than hit points?

4) Adds in battles. I have seen it written that more adds pop up based on how much is going on. For example I've seen people say "dismiss your pets" or tell people not to kill the adds at all so that less will pop up. Is this true? How does the system decide when to spawn new adds? It seems sad to me that a Guardian Fighter's main job is going to be running around like a momma duck with a pack of troll ducklings in his wake for 10 minutes while everyone else polishes off the boss but maybe that just the way it has to be.

5) Daily dungeons. Has it always been Dread Vault? And why??? It would be nice if there was like at least one different option between Rhix and The King. I'm just curious if I've only seen it one way because i haven't been here long enough. Sure its nice to get the DV AD but after a few weeks....

6) Leadership profession. Is it just me, or is leveling from 17->20 about as much work as leveling 2 other professions all the way to 20?? Maybe I need to do more training missions and less useful ones that earn AD, but I've been stuck on levels 17 and 18 for months.

Thanks in advance

chaoscourtesan

There is little question whether this or that is an exploit.
Basically, if you can do it in RL it's ok. (As far as movement goes.)

I can offer my own thoughts on Q's 3-6 though.

3. As far as I know, only the things that appear on the pet's stats drop down get transferred. I don't know this blessing thing, but I am guessing it will not transfer. power, crit, armpen, deflect, defense, lifesteal, those things transfer. There are a couple others I cant remember right now.

4. Add spawns are different in different dungeons. Best to look up info on each dungeon. Can't think of the name, but the one with the Werewolf queen spawns them when she hits you (OR A PET) with her sword.

5. Dread Vault is almost a guaranteed win. I am guessing that's why it is used. I don't think the daily ever featured any other dungeon, but not sure.

6. Leadership, yeah, you about have it right. In retrospect, it is probably better to level up one of the other skills first to open slots. I finally made level 20 on two chars.. been working on it since open beta started. But I'm at level 19 on 3 other chars, so I am just going to see it through at this point.

I'm no expert by any means, but I hope something of this is of some use to you.



6.

melodywhr

pre-clears have already been officially declared as being WAI. here's the link where panderus confirms it:

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?316671-Dungeon-Delves-Preclearing-exploit-or-not&p=4088122&viewfull=1#post4088122

i don't think changing instances is unethical if the instance is too crowded or if someone is trying to do the same run as you are or if you just don't like other people jumping into your fight especially if they're not in your party. it wouldn't be an option if it wasn't WAI.

reporting users for abuse/exploiting/etc is within your right. granted, submitting a report may or may not produce results as you will never get a report back on what was done. it is stated in the terms of service that pwe will use discretion based on individual situations. therefore what you may consider to be an exploit, they may or may not agree with you. i think pwe investigates every report submitted and takes action when necessary but that is between pwe and the individual involved.

on aggro: if you're doing a lot of damage, you're going to get the attention of whoever you're attacking. and it makes perfect sense.

people usually want people to dismiss their non-augment companions because they will aggro enemies forcing the entire group to have to attack mobs they don't necessarily need to.

leadership is a slow mover in the upper levels. the max amount of xp you can have in a leadership task is 240. compare that to other professions where wilderness gathering grants 800. it's just the nature of the beast.

good luck!

bioshrike

1a) I agree here. If you do NOT have to make use of exploits or glitches in order to avoid a fight, by all means do so.

1b) I do not think it is ever unethical to change instances. It is useful if a particular instance is too full and causing you lag, and there's nothing wrong with farming, so if you want to change instances to refresh skill nodes, I see no problem. Again, all this is contingent on you not taking advantage of cheats or exploits to do so - of which instance-changing is not one.

1c) Reporting bad or problem players is not an obligation. You may do so if you feel like it, but the sad truth is that the current state of affairs does not appear to be one in which cheaters/exploiters are punished. Perhaps those reported are dealt with accordingly, but we are unlikely to hear about it anyway...

2) The exact mechanics behind Aggro in this game eludes me, sorry.

3) Don't have any augment companions, sorry.

4) Again, I don't know the exact mechanism that determines just how many Adds your team will face.

5) It has always been Dread Vault for level 60 players. I'm not sure why it's this one, and I'd really love to see the boss drop fixed or it expanded to be any epic dungeon instead...

6) Leadership does take a long time to hit max level. I think it has to do with the fact that no task, outside of a very specific training one that gives 240 leadership XP and nothing else, gives more than 120 XP. Other professions have their "mass gather" tasks that give like 800 XP and can take up to 4 workers. Most leadership tasks only give 120 leadership XP and can take 6, 8, or 12 hours to run. The saving grave, however, is that they still yield useful stuff - like ADs, potions, runes/enchants/other profession resources.

xhrit

stonebarr wrote: »

2) Aggro. Do we really know how this is computed? I usually play a DC (12k GS with about 5k power) and its pretty obvious that I grab aggro when I cause damage. But sometimes newly spawned monsters come after me, or even monsters that seemed to have just taken damage from someone else. Usually i can lose their focus by dodging pell-mell through the thick of the melee, as they'll take some damage following me and change their attention to someone else (monsters are like small children in this regard - "look shiny!") Sliding through the melee is dangerous (you could time it bad and get one-shotted) but it usually works.

What happens is your heal over time powers generate agro over time; every tick of health generates some hate as well. Newly spawned mobs will often pick up that agro before anyone has a chance to hit them. Check the class forums for more info.

sockmunkey

stonebarr wrote: »

Hi all,

Apologies in advance for lumping questions into a single thread, but better than spamming the forums I suppose. So I've been playing for several months now and have gotten through most of the basic questions. What it seems that I have left are harder ones to answer and I was hoping for comments on them. A lot of these are probably subjective without inside information, so I'd appreciate comments from people who have direct experience with server admins or know the community and mores better than I do.

1) Ethics questions.

1a) I personally believe it is ethical to walk around fights if it doesn't require exploiting terrain, and that its okay to push monsters off of bridges and such. That seems to be as designed. However is it considered ethical to re-log your character in order to get the dungeon delve chest? Or so-called "pre-clear" runs? I was told that this was given a tacit approval by the admins in some thread but I do not have a link and it seems questionable.

As posted above pre-clears are considered ok. However, I believe it starts to get into a grey area when you start re-logging. Its one thing to start a run early and time your clear so you end about when the DD event starts. Its another to pre-clear hours before. Just so you can log in just to pop the chest the moment DD starts.

1b) When is it unethical to change instances? Say if I'm running around my favorite killing ground just passing time. I do a couple loops and then a few people start horning in on my favorite killing areas. Is it bad to change instances then? As a bonus, I'd have new resource nodes to go after, so in that regard it's a bonus for me. I'm not talking about one loop, change instance, wash rinse repeat, but more when people are hogging my loop. Still I could change my instance 5 times in a half hour due to this, especially during busy times. I feel guilty about getting more resource nodes this way, but not too guilty about changing because its crowded. Whats the official stance, if any?

There is nothing wrong with anything here. There are already limits on changing instances, to prevent abuse. As well as loot limits on the nodes themselves. The game simply wont let you farm them endlessly. If you hit to many to quickly, all youll get is junk.


1c) At what point is it responsible to report bad behavior to the admins, and what types of things are likely to get action? And what is pointless to report? There is no apparent attempt to stop /LFG advertised "exp" and even "glitch" runs through dungeons, so it seems like enforcement is minimal if any. Is it even worth my time to report people? And what kinds of transgressions are worth the bother to document? I know this is a somewhat subjective question, but perhaps other people know what people are actually getting banned for if anything (it doesn't seem to be dungeon exploiting). I don't want to waste my time creating documentation that wont be used.

Report anything you feel is worthy of it and your time. Youll never know what happens with it. So dont bother to report if you are doing so expecting any kind of action. Report and let the GMs handle it. Thats what they are there for. im my own opinion it is always better to report then to ignore. Reporting might not do anything. But ignoring will do even less.

2) Aggro. Do we really know how this is computed? I usually play a DC (12k GS with about 5k power) and its pretty obvious that I grab aggro when I cause damage. But sometimes newly spawned monsters come after me, or even monsters that seemed to have just taken damage from someone else. Usually i can lose their focus by dodging pell-mell through the thick of the melee, as they'll take some damage following me and change their attention to someone else (monsters are like small children in this regard - "look shiny!") Sliding through the melee is dangerous (you could time it bad and get one-shotted) but it usually works.

Think of healing, as doing damage. If no one has yet hit newly spawned mobs and one of your heals goes off. You have in effect just hit everyone of those new mobs with a taunt. Being aware of new adds and knowing when and when not to lay down big heals is a large part of a Clerics job. Its one reason its called a leader class and not a healer.

3) Ioun Stone and other attribute pets. What are the limitations on these? For example, could you use a Fey Blessing on a pet (just an example, I don't know if there are any utility spots on such companions)? Are there some things that just don't transfer, other than hit points?

There are no utility slots on pets, of any kind. Not even in the various items pets can wear. For augment pets, all stats will transfer except health. For other pets, only useful stats are Defense, Health, Recovery, and Life Steal. Everything else is either useless or negligible.

4) Adds in battles. I have seen it written that more adds pop up based on how much is going on. For example I've seen people say "dismiss your pets" or tell people not to kill the adds at all so that less will pop up. Is this true? How does the system decide when to spawn new adds? It seems sad to me that a Guardian Fighter's main job is going to be running around like a momma duck with a pack of troll ducklings in his wake for 10 minutes while everyone else polishes off the boss but maybe that just the way it has to be.

The only case of this is the final boss in the Grey Wolf Den. Her main sword AoE will spawn a pair of shadow wolves for each and every person hit, including pets. Careless pet use here can make the fight unwinable. In other areas, pets are less a direct danger but still a source of annoyance. They tend to wander and either get in the way, steal aggro at poor times, or draw in adds from outside the fight. For these reasons alone, its fairly poor manners to use them on Epic runs.

As far as the rest, kiting adds is a valid tactic, especially on fights where the adds spawn continuously. If killing them will just cause another set of adds to spawn. Why kill them?


5) Daily dungeons. Has it always been Dread Vault? And why??? It would be nice if there was like at least one different option between Rhix and The King. I'm just curious if I've only seen it one way because i haven't been here long enough. Sure its nice to get the DV AD but after a few weeks....

Yea, its always been DV, only because its the final 'End game" non epic dungeon. The problem is, the non epic dungeons dont scale, so running them at 60 will be problematic. And the daily system was designed around doing normal dungeons, not epics. Otherwise it would impossible to do the dailies at lower levels.

We have been told, fixes and changes are in the works. but until that happens. Its DV over and over again.

6) Leadership profession. Is it just me, or is leveling from 17->20 about as much work as leveling 2 other professions all the way to 20?? Maybe I need to do more training missions and less useful ones that earn AD, but I've been stuck on levels 17 and 18 for months.

In any other crafting profession a rank 14 deep gather task will get you 800xp in 8 hours to 6 hours. For leadership, the max you can get is 240xp in 8 hours. Leadership will never be as fast any other professions, it was never made to be. Its the one profession that can be easily abused by running leadership farms. Making it a slow grind discourages that.

Thanks in advance

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