Enchants and PVP

cbrowne0329

Cryptic, want to separate skill from PVP without nerfing what people paid for and not have to rewrite alot of code?

Simple do this...

Like companions can't help during PVP... disable ALL enchants during PVP... and I mean all!

This is drastic... yeah I know... but here is what brought me to this conclusion, this morning.

I was having a great time this morning... mind you... I don't mind personally people having Tenes etc. I look at is, as they spent the money to get it... whatever? However, today after we started beating a team, and the other team started camping in their spawn, this one particular GWF starts saying 1v1 anyone? Mind you know one has dropped. So I start watching these so-called 1v1 against one of the most unskilled GWFs I have seen to date. Then he starts saying hell 2v1... I'll take your whole team if necessary! He's not using skill, but just standing there... taking damage then killing them. Then the taunting starts... "Is that all the DPS you have!?" etc etc.

Now mind you... he's on my team, so I inspect him. He has 4 Greater Tranquil, and 4 Greater Tenebrous, a Perfect Vorpal on Weapon, a Greater negation on armor, and I was disgusted. First of all I have never been a proponent of nerf these pay for enchants... but this pompous, no-skilled idiot, has thus proven beyond a doubt in my mind that ALL enchants need to not exist in PVP. Keep these obviously paid- for enchants, but remove ALL of them from PVP!

It's takes no skill to play whack-a-mole, and although I've defended them in the past... I'd like to see ALL enchants pulled from PVP. When a sucky player can abuse them, that is clear indication they are broken. Especially the paid for ones.

It's the same thing with CoD and such... time and money should not reward the sucky player... skill should be the only deciding factor... and these enchants do not account for that in PVP.

lexusor

Very good suggestion, however I highly doubt it's gonna happen.

josiahiyon

Disagree 100%.

It's important to distinguish these two forms of PVP:

1. Equal Footing (Test Server) -- strategy/tactics/skill differences
2. Use what you earn (Live Server) -- strategy/tactics/skill + AD differences

There is value in rewarding people for their hard-earned AD. It takes a lot of effort in most cases to earn AD, and players are rewarded for it. If you (or someone) lost to a player with 'no skill' but better gear, there's good news: earn AD and upgrade and you'll take'm down no prob.

If you want equal-footing PVP, play on the test server.

gannicsgladiator

cbrowne0329 wrote: »

Cryptic, want to separate skill from PVP without nerfing what people paid for and not have to rewrite alot of code?

Simple do this...

Like companions can't help during PVP... disable ALL enchants during PVP... and I mean all!

This is drastic... yeah I know... but here is what brought me to this conclusion, this morning.

I was having a great time this morning... mind you... I don't mind personally people having Tenes etc. I look at is, as they spent the money to get it... whatever? However, today after we started beating a team, and the other team started camping in their spawn, this one particular GWF starts saying 1v1 anyone? Mind you know one has dropped. So I start watching these so-called 1v1 against one of the most unskilled GWFs I have seen to date. Then he starts saying hell 2v1... I'll take your whole team if necessary! He's not using skill, but just standing there... taking damage then killing them. Then the taunting starts... "Is that all the DPS you have!?" etc etc.

Now mind you... he's on my team, so I inspect him. He has 4 Greater Tranquil, and 4 Greater Tenebrous, a Perfect Vorpal on Weapon, a Greater negation on armor, and I was disgusted. First of all I have never been a proponent of nerf these pay for enchants... but this pompous, no-skilled idiot, has thus proven beyond a doubt in my mind that ALL enchants need to not exist in PVP. Keep these obviously paid- for enchants, but remove ALL of them from PVP!

It's takes no skill to play whack-a-mole, and although I've defended them in the past... I'd like to see ALL enchants pulled from PVP. When a sucky player can abuse them, that is clear indication they are broken. Especially the paid for ones.

It's the same thing with CoD and such... time and money should not reward the sucky player... skill should be the only deciding factor... and these enchants do not account for that in PVP.

that was too drastic i think. for the gear setup of that gwf, i know many players from different class that could take him on 1 x 1. if he was alone 2 x 1 people from the other team, be sure they were really bad... now you want to take a way enchantments just because of it. don't make sense for me.
you can always join a game like guild wars 2, where everyone is the same in pvp. no gear or enchantment different for anyone. pure skills

pw3cka

cbrowne0329 wrote: »

Cryptic, want to separate skill from PVP without nerfing what people paid for and not have to rewrite alot of code?

Simple do this...

Like companions can't help during PVP... disable ALL enchants during PVP... and I mean all!

This is drastic... yeah I know... but here is what brought me to this conclusion, this morning.

I was having a great time this morning... mind you... I don't mind personally people having Tenes etc. I look at is, as they spent the money to get it... whatever? However, today after we started beating a team, and the other team started camping in their spawn, this one particular GWF starts saying 1v1 anyone? Mind you know one has dropped. So I start watching these so-called 1v1 against one of the most unskilled GWFs I have seen to date. Then he starts saying hell 2v1... I'll take your whole team if necessary! He's not using skill, but just standing there... taking damage then killing them. Then the taunting starts... "Is that all the DPS you have!?" etc etc.

Now mind you... he's on my team, so I inspect him. He has 4 Greater Tranquil, and 4 Greater Tenebrous, a Perfect Vorpal on Weapon, a Greater negation on armor, and I was disgusted. First of all I have never been a proponent of nerf these pay for enchants... but this pompous, no-skilled idiot, has thus proven beyond a doubt in my mind that ALL enchants need to not exist in PVP. Keep these obviously paid- for enchants, but remove ALL of them from PVP!

It's takes no skill to play whack-a-mole, and although I've defended them in the past... I'd like to see ALL enchants pulled from PVP. When a sucky player can abuse them, that is clear indication they are broken. Especially the paid for ones.

It's the same thing with CoD and such... time and money should not reward the sucky player... skill should be the only deciding factor... and these enchants do not account for that in PVP.

Very well said, I am also more annoyed by how the people with Gtenes and perfects behave rather then the enchantments itself.

The best are perma TRs who thinks they are the PVP gods and that it's because their personal skill

yokihiro

They add least should either cap them (max rank 5s or 6s, if you have higher the values will be lower) or better reduce the effectiveness of ALL enchants in PVP only. Other games also reduce effectiveness of abilities and items in PVP because normally those things scale because of PVP but are too strong when it comes to PVP.

grungebrmpk

I agree with the OP< and agree with yokihiro.

Enchats should not unbalance pvp, pvp should be equal to equal, not item based. See MOBA games for example, the most sucessfull pvp games.

Whats the fun of winning a match because of you items? Bah... I just honor myself by winning with my skills.

godlysoul1

If enchants are disabled from pvp, Neverwinter loses money from anyone who wants to spend money to get good at pvp, which is a lot of people. I know one person admitted on his video he spent over $500 on getting his pvp gear in this game. Therefore, this is an interesting idea in theory to make pvp more skill based, but it wont work for 2 reasons. 1 being the money loss for Neverwinter, but the second reason is it gives you no goals in the game. You never have anything higher to work for. You never have the challenge of trying to figure out a way to beat someone who is better geared than you. You lose more creative building because you cannot invest extra points in different stats that normally wouldn't appear on armor, or that may not be able to be stacked to an effective quantity just from the gear stats alone.

spanky2014

Hey while we are at it, lets make all gear have a base stat of 50 power/armor pen/life steal/deflection/def etc etc. I don't want someone who has spent 1 week farming T2 PvP gear to be better than me.

While you are at it, please disable the Boons from your grinding. Thats not fair that he get "bonus" stats for having put in effort to get the stat increase. This is not fair!!!

I do agree with the "no pets" in PvP. It would be interesting to see if they allow the "aura bonus". I think they would because everyone has access to it and it is up the the individual to choose which pets they want.

I don't mind if someone has a R10 gem and I'm using a R8. They get a few stat points on me... big whoop. It is not the enchants that is broken, it is the class and spec that is broken. Immunity for 5 second every 10 seconds is silly.

cribstaxxx

Why would anyone have > R7 enchants if not for PvP? Lol why would anyone bother to have more than lesser armor or normal weapon enchant?

PvE can be easily completed with R5-7's and no weapon or armor enchant, the need for these things is ONLY present in PvP.

So what you are saying is - "Can you please give everyone no reason whatsoever to spend money to get AD?" To which you know how cryptic will respond...

xelliz

if they can turn off fall dmg and companions in pvp, they can turn off other things too...

pers3phone

cribstaxxx wrote: »

Why would anyone have > R7 enchants if not for PvP? Lol why would anyone bother to have more than lesser armor or normal weapon enchant?

PvE can be easily completed with R5-7's and no weapon or armor enchant, the need for these things is ONLY present in PvP.

So what you are saying is - "Can you please give everyone no reason whatsoever to spend money to get AD?" To which you know how cryptic will respond...

Nah man, you're exaggerating a bit here I know people that gear and spec 100% for PvE effectiveness and spend their time to get Perfects and high rank enchants. They don't even step into PvP at all. I've put much of my resources and time to get PvE specific stuff as well, such as a stone and R7 enchants in it too (which I'll upgrade as soon as I'm able to), and it's PvE only. It makes me a bit sad when I finish CN a few million DPS below other CW, so there's competition here as well (too bad other classes can never come close).

What you're talking about is a very small part of the community that cares just for PvP and mostly never-ever even touches PvE at all. They are more of an exception than the rule in this game.

So in conclusion, people will money will still buy their gear even for PvE-only purposes... nobody likes to look poor without purple enchants etc.

cribstaxxx

pers3phone wrote: »

Nah man, you're exaggerating a bit here I know people that gear and spec 100% for PvE effectiveness and spend their time to get Perfects and high rank enchants. They don't even step into PvP at all. I've put much of my resources and time to get PvE specific stuff as well, such as a stone and R7 enchants in it too, and it's PvE only. It makes me a bit sad when I finish CN a few million DPS below other CW, so there's competition here as well (too bad other classes can never come close).

What you're talking about is a very small part of the community that cares just for PvP and mostly never-ever even touches PvE at all. They are more of an exception than the rule in this game.

So in conclusion, people will money will still buy their gear even for PvE-only purposes... nobody like to look poor without purple enchants etc.

But 100% of PvE can be completed extremely efficiently in R7's with no armor enchant and maybe a normal weapon enchant. My PvE CW uses R7's lesser soulforged (nearly useless in PvE) and a GPF (which is no better than a lesser right now b/c of stacks) and I am consistently top damage and can do T2's in 15-20 minute runs.

Point is that excessive gear is not needed to complete dungeons very quickly, but it is needed not to get roflstomped in PvP. Skill and knowledge of your character make a very big difference in both PvP and PvE but gear plays a bigger role in PvP than in PvE.

I used to be a PvE only player. I would never have upgraded past R7's and lesser/normal enchants were it not for getting heavily into competitive PvP.

Edit: So what if you gain a few hundred thousand damage in a run? You maybe shave off 1-2 minutes at most by upgrading from R7 to R10 and normal to perfect enchants. If the run goes smooth and fast I could care less what the damage chart looks like, IMO at least.

pers3phone

cribstaxxx wrote: »

But 100% of PvE can be completed extremely efficiently in R7's with no armor enchant and maybe a normal weapon enchant. My PvE CW uses R7's lesser soulforged (nearly useless in PvE) and a GPF (which is no better than a lesser right now b/c of stacks) and I am consistently top damage and can do T2's in 15-20 minute runs.

Point is that excessive gear is not needed to complete dungeons very quickly, but it is needed not to get roflstomped in PvP. Skill and knowledge of your character make a very big difference in both PvP and PvE but gear plays a bigger role in PvP than in PvE.

I used to be a PvE only player. I would never have upgraded past R7's and lesser/normal enchants were it not for getting heavily into competitive PvP.

Edit: So what if you gain a few hundred thousand damage in a run? You maybe shave off 1-2 minutes at most by upgrading from R7 to R10 and normal to perfect enchants. If the run goes smooth and fast I could care less what the damage chart looks like, IMO at least.

Yes, excessive gear is not needed in PvE (although SF is very useful exactly where it needs to be, i.e. the new and "improved" draco). Yeah gear plays a bigger role in PvP by far.

However, many hate PvP in this game and just gear for PvE, and they still invest heavily. I'm saying it cause I know quite a few. It is true however that neither are at the level of investing in 7 GTEs+perfects on a few chars type of stuff that I see in many elite PvPers, but they still spend big.

As for the OP, I'm against taking out enchants from PvP for the sole reason it would reduce diversity of builds. However, I'd make PvP only gear and PvP only enchants available that can only be gained through grinding and better positioning on the ladders. I'd also add a Resilience type of stat on the new PvP gear so people would be instadestroyed if they try to PvP without it, so the devs can balance things around a few armor sets/class. This would obviously have the effect that all gear would be earned through PvP skills not money, and this is how I think it should be.

lewstelamon01

Quick reminder: Per rule 3.08 of RoC, Pay to Win discussion is not allowed.

grungebrmpk

cribstaxxx

roflstomped, this word should not exist in pvp
There is the problem...

pw3cka

Cribstaxxx GM of Enemy Team, do I hear ban hammer?

cbrowne0329

If you guys think it will really ruin PVP, they can always do this to test that theory. Keep PVP the way it is... make another version of PVP with the above rules. See what the community plays most.

I'm just tired of seeing people I know are REALLY bad at their tactics owning simply because of enchants. As for having no reason to upgrade? They could just make the dungeons scale harder, as they are too easy even without glitches.

Getting those enchants through AD? Not going to happen. Thin about how much AD you would have to get to open that many boxes to even get close to getting a normal enchant. It's completely unrealistic! This coming from someone that buys keys (close to 400 now) for boxes. I have yet seen enough of even one enchant to make a greater.

I'm a founder with mutliple mounts, bags, purple assets, etc. So I think I have a pretty good idea of saying... COMPLETELY unrealistic!

I want a skill based PVP... before any other changes. I like how the people complaining about not having them the most are people I have played and... well yeah...

josiahiyon

If you want skill-based PVP, gear yourself up and play in premades. Can't find a premade? Join the PMvsPM channel in game. Still not enough? Suggest improved match-making and new PVP forms from cryptic.

If you want to improve your skills, you practice. If you want to improve your build, you research. If you want to improve your gear, you farm. All of these elements make a player great. Anyone asking to remove one of these elements is only asking for a shortcut.

Cryptic has already provided 2 options to shortcut gear: (1) use the test server, (2) buy your gear with $s.

Side bar: a great player doesn't make a great team. That takes more practice and research.

cbrowne0329

Oh I have no problem in PVP... I am frequently in the top on my team... what I don't like seeing is people who suck who are getting lots of kills because of their gear and not skill.

I've played with most people even in this thread. Some are skilled... others... yeah well... that gear sure is a life saver!

You can tell the people who don't move, stand there and og toe-toe with classes that really can't or shouldn't be able to, and use no strat other than hoping something procs. These are the people who annoy the **** out of me. I mean I HATED the first unkillable GWF I came across.

However, he didn't just stand their absorbing damage and two shotting people. he ran used restoring strikes, take downs and flourishes, and would run to heal... died in the match only once! However, HE played with skill for his build... not overstacking enchants and taunting people. That I can get behind!

Until PVP allows for better match-making (not until next year I heard, and 4 more maps... if my bird is right) making premades and hoping to jump in against another pre-made is pointless, and waste other people's time when you abandon them, to get back i nwith your mates.

I know what gear works... I do well at PVP, and would probably dominate if I had the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that guy had... but that doesn't make me any less or more skilled.

SKILL is just that SKILL! Gear/enchants has nothing to do with it.

caexar

Actually, an option of joining either a full set match (how it is now) or a vanilla (only gear, no enchants) match would alleviate some of the whole "my skillz are uber because I confuse skill with gear" issue.
Personally I don't have an issue with enchants in PvP as I generally only PvP for daily, but I can see the validity for both sides of the equation.

On a side note it is extremely funny to see people boasting in game and on these forums even about how they are one of the top PvP players when there are clearly no rating or tracking system and they are most likely stacked on enchants. :cool: It always brings a smile to my face when conjecture is passed off as absolute.

melodywhr

this is definitely an option the devs could take but a more likely one would be to make the matchmaking process better... teaming like builds and enchants with like builds and enchants so the playing field is more level. when module 2 is released, we will not only be concerned with weapon and armor enchants, but artifacts as well... that's three stacked artifacts with the primary giving some kind of power depending on that particular artifact. and these are also switchable. at least they are now on the preview shard. and these artifacts actually have an orange level which is above purple (epic). so... pvp will definitely get more interesting once these are implemented.

furcof

Too much coding for little to no profit. Of course match making of gear scores would help more than removing 'the' biggest part of the game, E.g. 5-7 8-10 10+ but this would also cause longer queues.

The only thing PvP really needs is to implement a premade vs premade matchmaker rather than the hit or miss queues we have now where you have the chance of a premade vs pug group..

wh0

I partially agree with the premade vs premade matchmaker. All things being equal has its good and bad points.

Assuming premade vs pub group no longer exist.....

Pros:
More balance of pvp based on the team formed. (e.g. total gear score)
Encourage cohesive team play
Lower quit rate.
Higher morale as you may not lose with a poorer team

Cons:
Longer queues. Esp premade teams.
Individual player that wants to improve couldn't fight a good/top team.
It became monotonous and reliant as you often face different mates and opponents where 'random/luck' plays a part.
Encourage individual queuing


Well, it depends on which direction dev wants to give the players. One hat doesn't fit all.

furcof wrote: »

Too much coding for little to no profit. Of course match making of gear scores would help more than removing 'the' biggest part of the game, E.g. 5-7 8-10 10+ but this would also cause longer queues.

The only thing PvP really needs is to implement a premade vs premade matchmaker rather than the hit or miss queues we have now where you have the chance of a premade vs pug group..

mctankypants

Removing enchants completely is too drastic. You could tone them down but complete removal takes away the diversity and intrigue of tailoring your character the way you envision them. Part of the fun of paper D&D was getting magic items and artifacts that added an edge or advantage to your player.
I realize that I'm romanticizing a paper based game and it's vastly different than pvp environment.
I'd much rather see the option to ranked games, premade games and the chance to face like minded players.
It doesn't matter what game you play, whether it's a fps or mmo you're going to get those that want to have an unfair advantage over other players. It's what they need out of life.

tarmalen

They are already tuning Tenes.

They need to address regen next.

When 1 person can hold off 4 people then things are bit out of kilter. Don't tell me it is skill either. They need to disable regen while taking damage and only have it kick in when you have not taken damage for 3 seconds ...or some such.

Between enchants/lifesteal/regen/unstoppable feated/restoring strike feated, there is no skill only "Har Har...you guys suxxx!".

Once the next module comes out some builds will be regening 2.5k or better per tick. That is before ANYTHING else comes into play.

Defensive stat that is used offensively since you can stay in the fight longer.

I'm not too worried. Eventually the masses will agree that regen needs to be turned off while taking damage.

Remember FH before they finally turned regen off of trolls when they take damage?

Yeah...devs wondered why we would skip that fight.

mctankypants

Not to side track the conversation but Tarmalen brings up a good point. How exactly is a class realistically deflect damage when they're really just running around?
Deflecting should be sidestepping a blade to the side, parrying an attack...not running in circles and healing while you're at it.
Hell, even Wolverine has to take a minute to heal.

tang56

tarmalen wrote: »

They are already tuning Tenes.

They need to address regen next.

When 1 person can hold off 4 people then things are bit out of kilter. Don't tell me it is skill either. They need to disable regen while taking damage and only have it kick in when you have not taken damage for 3 seconds ...or some such.

Between enchants/lifesteal/regen/unstoppable feated/restoring strike feated, there is no skill only "Har Har...you guys suxxx!".

Once the next module comes out some builds will be regening 2.5k or better per tick. That is before ANYTHING else comes into play.

Defensive stat that is used offensively since you can stay in the fight longer.

The problem with turning off regen in combat is that some classes *cough*GF*cough* have no way to disengage from combat. Regen is the stat for GF's that makes up for this inability to disengage, recover and re-engage.

mctankypants

You and your logic Tang.

tarmalen

tang56 wrote: »

The problem with turning off regen in combat is that some classes *cough*GF*cough* have no way to disengage from combat. Regen is the stat for GF's that makes up for this inability to disengage, recover and re-engage.

GF can disengage just fine. They can punt/prone. They have mechanics to heal.

GF can take 5 people on for a few seconds and live just fine.

Then again if your GF is handling 5 people then the rest of your team better have the other points capped and be rushing to GF aid.

zuthuul

I agree with just about everything said. PvP should be more about the skill of the player rather than the gear, but I know that gear can amplify skill. My pvp toon is a variation on a perma stealth. I use a GVorpal and regular soulforged. I choose not to use tenes because i would rather stack offensive enchants and not worry about health so much. I think what Cryptic can do can be easily implemented to balance gear based pvp. They can take it from an older and great pvp system from (a now dying) Warhammer online. WAR took your newly maxed level toon and gave it a pvp buff so it could stand a chance against the higher geared players. Cryptic should implement a buff/debuff system where they use a set gear score as the bar and buff/debuff players stats accordingly. Now this won't solve every issue, but it should make a better balance between gear differences to bring out the actual skilled players. I also think that they can pull another buff system from that: Give the team with less players a survivability buff when team members quit. This should scale with the loss in members so that the team still has a fighting chance.

I think Cryptic should have the time and resources to implement this type of pvp structure that should balance it. I think SWTOR added something like this a while back, why can't NW?