As another said, it’s a visual game and people will react to what you are wearing. You are also wrong to think changes to the game could not alter this, all that needs to be done is have a wider range of casual clothing and armor for people to wear.
People can react to a description of a non-displayed item just as easily as a displayed one, such as a unique ring worn that has some important character related detail about it, which is an item that would never be shown well in the game.
Further, no matter how many pieces of clothing are added to the game, the particular item of clothing desired by a player for his character may not be among them. So, adding more items is not some sort of universal panacea.
As I said, such things are nice, but not needed, regardless of medium. Descriptive ability and imagination will suffice, as they always have, when the available visible items are lacking, which they will perpetually always be.
A visual asset is not a "visual crutch" in a visual game, it is part of the game.
Nobody is denying that you can get on with roleplaying under most circumstances.
You don't even need a videogame to role-play. You don't even need to roleplay at all.
But this just happens to be a videogame. In which people roleplay.
So requests for more roleplaying assets in a videogame are perfectly on point - they are both a need and a want (from both players' and developers' perspectives).
If one can't role-play without a visual item to support their role-play, it is a crutch. I do not debate that requesting visual items to aid in role-play is on point.
They are, though, a want, not a need, as one can role-play without them. They only become a need when they are actually required for role-play, which they are not.
I'm not an RP'er, but i appreciate having you around, and will loiter at the Mask just to listen along. I support all the points you've made (particularly the fashion), except i want to defend the Driftwood as it is. It's the perfect niche for a different segment — a place to hang out with bumping into anybody. That upstairs campfire is ideal for quiet introverts who just want to park for a while and do their business with no-one hopping around, firing off noisy attacks and breaking my /e sit.
You guys totally deserve the Driftwood, but until i can get my own cubby-hole apartment (a la Skyrim) it's the most convenient refuge i can find
Perhaps you are better off trying to change the game you enjoy to better match what you are looking for, which is what this thread is about. That I may not agree that many of the things being requested
I don't try to get rp added to shooters because that's not what a shooting games are. Devs have said this is an action focused game, they're not going to be catering to RPers. Just look what they've added for RPers, a few costumes. And look what they've taken away, the RP location during events. They have to have some minimal RP functionality because people expect RP from dnd games, and games with Neverwinter in their title (you still see people mistakenly abbreviating this game as nwn, and I've seen mods correct them). But RP heaven? Not gonna happen here.
I don't try to get rp added to shooters because that's not what a shooting games are. Devs have said this is an action focused game, they're not going to be catering to RPers. Just look what they've added for RPers, a few costumes. And look what they've taken away, the RP location during events. They have to have some minimal RP functionality because people expect RP from dnd games, and games with Neverwinter in their title (you still see people mistakenly abbreviating this game as nwn, and I've seen mods correct them). But RP heaven? Not gonna happen here.
Any game, including shooters, is a role-playing game, if players chose to role-play while playing it. A developer can't add role-play to a game, no matter how many role-play friendly features they put in, nor can they remove it by not providing those features. Role-play isn't a game related function. It is a player related function, that occurs or not at the whim of those playing any particular game. Role-play can not be given or taken by the makers of a game, as it isn't a matter of their choosing.
Going to second an already stated belief and that is Cryptic doesn't care about RP.
In fact dropping the merchants for the events smack dab in established RP area where they know mobs of people will pack the zone is kind of in opposition to RP and could actually be seen as a direct slap in the face.
Of course to be perfectly honest this MMO has very little room for RP. Its biggest mainstay is the active combat system which it employs amazingly well. But beyond that even though it is a DnD game it doesn't have a lot of that DnD Rp feeling we had in lets say NWN1 or even to NWN2. Both of which were based on the same geography and Faerun campaign setting.
If you really want more RP in this particular MMO I think the best course of action is to create methods they can make $$ from the RP crowd and feed it to their marketers who have most of the control of the design in the game. Not really a fun idea but it is something.
And to add salt to the wound, even after we complain about the waukeen event NPC in the moonstone mask, they decide to threw a new NPC in there. So once more the place is flooded and we can't roll play. THANKS GUYS
I seriously cannot believe there are people here who are saying "Just RP if you want to RP", as if that's something that just sort of "happens" on any kind of noticeable scale. And yes... this ABSOLUTELY DOES rest squarely on the shoulders of the Devs, because we have poured actual money into this game for this very reason. The reason the Moonstone was a hub of roleplay, and the reason the Devs have absolutely slapped the entire roleplay community right in the face, is that the Moonstone was the only place that was single-instanced. This is not a hard concept to grasp, people... in order for roleplay to develop spontaneously, and in order for RP'ers to find each other, you HAVE to have a single-instanced zone where they can go to find each other. It was a well known fact that the Moonstone Mask WAS that RP hub... it served no other purpose, and that is the place all of the roleplayers went to meet (because it was single-instanced!). There is no way the Developers could not have known that's what it was being used for... they just didn't care.
Putting the event vendors in the Moonstone just shows that the developers do not give one single rip about the roleplay community (and before someone starts in with "But they let you do emotes and have sitting animations!" I'll stop you in your tracks, because even that much in this game is way behind par with every other MMO out there... for the Gods' sakes, you can't even lie down without killing yourself). Cryptic had better start paying attention to its RP demographic, because we're the ones that are going to stick around, while the hack-and-slashers move on to the next shiny thing that's dangled in front of them (HINT: Elder Scrolls Online is coming.)
I will not have any respect for the developers of this game until they stop destroying our roleplay hubs... or at least ADDRESS US TO LET US KNOW YOU'RE LISTENING. Let there be no mistake, the ball is absolutely in their court. They have taken RP off the shoulders of the roleplayers, and stomped it into the ground.
Having an instance called “Roleplay” really would help consolidate all those interested in roleplay, along with giving the developers an idea of how many of us there really are.
I seriously cannot believe there are people here who are saying "Just RP if you want to RP", as if that's something that just sort of "happens" on any kind of noticeable scale. And yes... this ABSOLUTELY DOES rest squarely on the shoulders of the Devs, because we have poured actual money into this game for this very reason. The reason the Moonstone was a hub of roleplay, and the reason the Devs have absolutely slapped the entire roleplay community right in the face, is that the Moonstone was the only place that was single-instanced. This is not a hard concept to grasp, people... in order for roleplay to develop spontaneously, and in order for RP'ers to find each other, you HAVE to have a single-instanced zone where they can go to find each other. It was a well known fact that the Moonstone Mask WAS that RP hub... it served no other purpose, and that is the place all of the roleplayers went to meet (because it was single-instanced!). There is no way the Developers could not have known that's what it was being used for... they just didn't care.
Putting the event vendors in the Moonstone just shows that the developers do not give one single rip about the roleplay community (and before someone starts in with "But they let you do emotes and have sitting animations!" I'll stop you in your tracks, because even that much in this game is way behind par with every other MMO out there... for the Gods' sakes, you can't even lie down without killing yourself). Cryptic had better start paying attention to its RP demographic, because we're the ones that are going to stick around, while the hack-and-slashers move on to the next shiny thing that's dangled in front of them (HINT: Elder Scrolls Online is coming.)
I will not have any respect for the developers of this game until they stop destroying our roleplay hubs... or at least ADDRESS US TO LET US KNOW YOU'RE LISTENING. Let there be no mistake, the ball is absolutely in their court. They have taken RP off the shoulders of the roleplayers, and stomped it into the ground.
I agree solely here. they have a hard enough time communicating with the regular players. Communicating with the Rpers is even less likely. But I very much agree with everything here.
Dropping a questgiver/merchant in the middle of a zone that is totally separate from the main 'hub', Protectors Enclave, isn't a really handy design decision in itself. Regardless if it is RPed in or not, it presents the user with another loading screen just to visit the merchant. -Really- impractical and unnecessary. As a Designer, you're supposed to limit a user's loading screens. Having a totally unnecessary loading screen is pulling the user out of the game experience, something that you should limit to an absolute technically possible minimum. So..please Cryptic, have a look at the usability of this system. Even if we totally cut out the arguments that this ruins the Moonstone Mask as an RP spot (arguably a thing which affects only at max, 10% of the game's demographic), this still affects 100% of the game's demographic with an unnecessary loading screen.
And then we of course have the fact that this basically means Roleplay in the Moonstone Mask has become a total no-no, which is a real shame because I felt the place was built for it especially. I'd -really- like to ask the developers to see if its possible to move future event merchants/vendors into the main Protector's Enclave zone. Forcing hundreds of players into such a small area is an absolute torture for computers and laptops with less than state of the art equipment. Its also incredibly impractical for people with a high latency connection who basically can only take one step at a time to 'lag-walk' to the vendor.
Bottom line: The current implementation of event vendors is impractical not just for RPers, but for everyone who plays the game.
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mistysummerMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 38
edited October 2013
Oddly enough it is not a big issues for some of you, clearly those that say we are complaining and expecting to much from the game are not roleplayers. In truth I think the rp community asks for very little in comparison to the pvp and pve players, and we imprivize very well with the tools we have been given.
Why are the rpers so upset about the Moonstone you ask? Easy it is because it is the only place in the game that has only one instance and were a rper can find random rp should they happen to not be in a guild or without any guild members online. Now they are taking that away from us as well for what reason I am still not really sure.
As for making due with the tools we have, yes most roleplay can be created in ones own imagination, however you would look pretty silly roleplaying with yourself cause there is no other place to find like minded players.
I would like to see what the forums would be like if they took pvp out of the game for six days, I can assure you there would be some major *****ing and gripping going on then. If Cryptic doesn't want roleplayers here all they need to do is say so, instead of slowly pushing us out.
Just my two cents.
"Blindness is a private matter between a person and the eyes they choose to use. For there are none so blind as those that do not listen dalharil"
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floingisMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 10Arc User
edited October 2013
I'd like to add something to those who are bringing up the idea of, "You do not need cosmetics, dice, or tools to Roleplay with."
My Comments to this:
We Roleplayers do not NEED (The word "Need" being used as an end-all-be-all here) these things to Role Play at a basic level, you are correct- As shown by the Roleplaying community now: We Role Play without these things.
With that said, I feel these things improve the game, the quality of Role Play within Neverwinter, and as well as helping the one true factor between "Role Play" and "Great Role Play" - Immersion.
Immersion is vital to keeping interest and storytelling at their peaks. If you can not bring yourself to take on the role of a character- His/her flaws, quirks, attitude, and style - you are not going to be able to sustain long and interesting Role Play... That's the bottom line.
One thing that helps Immersion is portraying your character's appearance EXACLY how you feel they should be looked at by other characters on first glance.Things like:
- Are they always armored?
- The Character's race, How they carry it?
- Do they appear of a commonwealth, or a noble?
- Do they look like a brawler ready to fight, or are they dressed for social graces?
... And Really? Do I need to Explain dice rolling? Just Google it - It'll save us both some time.
I am glad to see the support for designated Instanced zones, and single instanced taverns. I also noticed a few talking against the idea of making all Taverns single instanced, and you have a fairly good point:
Some people like being alone in a nice, calm place with not so many people bussling about; And that is fine.
I personally feel the other taverns would make great alternatives to the Mask, since they are not used by many. It would almost bring more people to the Role Playing community I feel. There are many people who don't even know the Moonstone Mask existed until last week - As proved by Zone Chat.
And Cryptic... I'm thoroughly disappointed in the placement of this "Masquerade of Liars" event's quest giver. The Moonstone Mask is our ONLY single instanced zone that has been, and is STILL being used by us Roleplayers...
There are many people who don't even know the Moonstone Mask existed until last week - As proved by Zone Chat.
I hate to say it, but I think that's exactly why they put the vendor there -- so people who didn't know about it would have a reason to visit it and hopefully, as a consequence, discover what it's for and have fun using it to RP in the future. Problem is that it hasn't worked to this effect at all.
Or maybe they just put the vendor there for the lulz, but that's the only logical reason I can think of. Otherwise Waukeen's vendor should have been closer to the marketplace and/or AH to make sense with the merchant vibe.
I'd like to add something to those who are bringing up the idea of, "You do not need cosmetics, dice, or tools to Roleplay with."
My Comments to this:
We Roleplayers do not NEED (The word "Need" being used as an end-all-be-all here) these things to Role Play at a basic level, you are correct- As shown by the Roleplaying community now: We Role Play without these things.
With that said, I feel these things improve the game, the quality of Role Play within Neverwinter, and as well as helping the one true factor between "Role Play" and "Great Role Play" - Immersion.
Immersion is vital to keeping interest and storytelling at their peaks. If you can not bring yourself to take on the role of a character- His/her flaws, quirks, attitude, and style - you are not going to be able to sustain long and interesting Role Play... That's the bottom line.
One thing that helps Immersion is portraying your character's appearance EXACLY how you feel they should be looked at by other characters on first glance.Things like:
- Are they always armored?
- The Character's race, How they carry it?
- Do they appear of a commonwealth, or a noble?
- Do they look like a brawler ready to fight, or are they dressed for social graces?
... And Really? Do I need to Explain dice rolling? Just Google it - It'll save us both some time.
I am glad to see the support for designated Instanced zones, and single instanced taverns. I also noticed a few talking against the idea of making all Taverns single instanced, and you have a fairly good point:
Some people like being alone in a nice, calm place with not so many people bussling about; And that is fine.
I personally feel the other taverns would make great alternatives to the Mask, since they are not used by many. It would almost bring more people to the Role Playing community I feel. There are many people who don't even know the Moonstone Mask existed until last week - As proved by Zone Chat.
I want to see all the taverns instanced on their own for RP, but also as an easy transition location for parties that want to form and meet up. You get your full pt together, a few already changed instances previously, now you have a 2min wait.
All taverns are instanced, everyone meets in tavern, then heads out in same instance to quest/dungeon together. Easy.
As for cosmetic armors, yes, I can rp without them, however there are other games I can rp in with the cosmetic armors I want - but not as high quality graphics or the lore I want to RP in.
The RP community is not asking for a lot. Yes, we understand that removing each inn from the main maps will take reworking the nodes slightly, but I expect PWE will not have issue doing this if they chose to set them into their own instances.
I want to see the event vendors removed from the mask. Yes, we got it, they're either advertising that the mask exists or don't care about it being disruptive to us. We're asking that all of the taverns be removed from the main instances much like the mask currently is.
Dice for combat is one method I've seen outside of para rp to decide hits/misses. It keeps some of the god-moding down for those that feel they need to use it.
I'd love to see cosmetics much like what the NPCs in PE are wearing added to the store, and to see some cosmetic armor/pants like the pantaloons that were added during the waukeen event that are not shiny metallic.
I'm not worried about having large zones such as PE designated for RP, however I would like to see a sort of Foundry that allows a larger (or no) cap to players in the instance. The foundry would be unable to have any form of mobs added, but could have NPCs that talk added to them. Ineligible for daily foundry and under their own 'RP' foundry tab/tag. The difficulty would probably be allowing people to join the same rp foundry as others that are already in it without having to be in a pt - I don't doubt PWE/Cryptic can do it though. I'm confident Cryptic would be able to come up with something that'd allow this over time - the advantage for them would be it's user gen content that caters to the RP community, by the RP community - so if they gave us foundrys like this the rp community really wouldn't have much room to ***** about not having the RP zones they want, as they'd be able to make the zones themselves.
Right now the biggest changes I'd request are:
More cosmetic armor options.
-female pants without flaps to the front/back or any form of skirt.
-loose female pants without flaps to the front/back or any form of skirt. (Would not mind seeing a variant like the pantaloons both tight and loose that are a matte/flat color so they can be dyed without being shiny).
-Male pants like the pantaloons that are not shiny.
-Cosmetic armor like the clothing worn by the NPCs in Protector's Enclave.
Separate instances:
-All taverns put onto their own map/instance like the Moonstone Mask currently is; which means those taverns etc being given their own zone chats as well.
Foundry (Lower priority in my opinion but still on the 'would really like' list.)
-Guild hall
-Player housing.
-Open RP zones that anyone can join after accepting the appropriate Foundry quest.
The mask seems to be a terrible place for RPers now, and we're organizing more and more to RP elsewhere, but it is still very difficult for us to actually meet any new RPers. Previously you had a universal area that anyone of any level and any knowledge level on working the chat UI could meet up to RP. Meeting to RP in certain other zones just meant you ran the risk of everything you say getting scrolled up for the newer players, or excluded low level RPers from the events.
I do 'just rp' as someone said before, but there are certain tools I'd like to see for immersion. Some things it's easier to be able to 'show' as far as outfits and/or the colors of the outfits rather than having to type every little bit out every single time I enter a tavern/etc. While I still describe everything I can of what my character is wearing/doing when I go anywhere, I still sometimes miss things that a good set of RP gear might 'show' for anyone around me.
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Yes, and as I've just suggested, a videogame needs visual assets to play with; it's a necessity, because it's a videogame. Otherwise we might as well be playing a MUD.
Of course you can roleplay without them, nobody's doubting that. You can roleplay in a any videogame just as you can roleplay without a videogame, since so much roleplay is in the mind anyway.
But a videogame that invites roleplayers that doesn't have visual things in the videogame for roleplayers, isn't doing its job as a videogame for roleplayers. (Not that the situation is that bad, of course, there are some facilities.)
As I said, you can bet that Cryptic think they need to put in more stuff for roleplayers, and that they want to too. It's a no-brainer. The reason they're not in is doubtless because roleplayers, while intended to be catered for, are not top priority. They no doubt have plans to introduce things, but they have other, higher priorities for a while.
I understand the point you are making, but it's preaching to the choir in one sense, and irrelevant in another. Roleplayers usually make do with whatever they have, if they like a setting. And the game isn't too bad from an RP perspective, in terms of conveniences (e.g. there are a few places where you can rp relatively undisturbed if you want to - and you can even create your own, which is a biggie). But still and all, Cryptic could definitely do more, especially considering the D&D lineage. Right at this moment, I can think of a few MMOs that are more rp-friendly asset-wise - aside from the Foundry - (actually even CoH was).
Actually, on a broader topic, I envisage the Foundry developing into something where a Foundry designer, or their delegate, could DM their instance (i.e. "possess" mobs, etc., much as in a NWN PW). Now that would be something special
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited October 2013
IMO, the answer would be to allow a new type of Foundry map/quest - a non-combat one which offered no rewards and had a much increased player cap.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Exactly Destinyknight, and that is why I want to see the inns/taverns all moved to their own instances first.
I'm fairly sure it's just a matter of changing them from transition point in same instance to transition point to another instance like the moonstone mask.
The biggest issue with not having a central RP area like the mask (because right now we're avoiding it because of the crowds making it impossible to deal with the crowds) is that there is no central known location we can all go to that is single instance and not a gamble of bouncing through each one inside the zone on the chance that maybe someone else might be active in one of them.
I'd even go so far as to ask for areas like the Sage's Shop being single instanced much like the mask.
There are some very well done buildings that'd be ideal for the RPers to meet up in and play together in. I don't think we're asking a lot, none of what we're requesting is going to make or break endgame content. It will however help keep and draw in more of the RP crowd and show others with the desire to rp that NW does have a community for it.
We realize as well, if we don't post and ask for things, Cryptic won't know we want the changes or that they have a demand for changes like these.
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I hope they do the foundry thing. You can already make a "home" that way, but groups are I think (?) limited to 5 players so no kin hall. It would be nice to allow infinite people into one instance but, the game probably does not support it.
Not a fan of access to vip room. I did not buy it, by the way, but already we have seen erosion of the perks from the pack (slowing adding similar toys to the store or in-game). Let the people that shelled out have a couple of things that no one else can have.
Taverns... we don't need all the stuff about taverns that you listed if they fix the foundry. Not only would the foundry serve as guild hall and homes, it could serve as ANY type of RP setting. Put your RP taverns in an open foundry instance, then! Or, better yet, step outside the cliche and RP in a totally different setting for once, the tavern paradigm has been done for 40 years now.
As a software developer (not games - and I'm just brainstorming here), the other possibility with dropping the event NPCs in the Mask is the same reason the RPers like it - it is a single instance zone. It allows for only 1 NPC to be required, so there is less overhead in development since you don't need to check multiple instances of the NPC working correctly together updating the database (race conditions, etc). It also eliminates the chance of some bug creeping through that could be exploited by players hopping instances. It doesn't make sense how that could happen, but who knows.
It might be a performance issue with number of requests to the database (i.e. load): having only 1 NPC can limit the number of interactions with the NPC during a certain span of time, thus limiting the frequency of requests to the database. Since everything data-driven in the game has to touch the database/storage, keeping it responsive is important since it affects everything.
There may be some other reason, and we'll never know what the real reason is, but don't assume that the devs just don't care or don't have a good reason for doing something.
Taverns... we don't need all the stuff about taverns that you listed if they fix the foundry. Not only would the foundry serve as guild hall and homes, it could serve as ANY type of RP setting. Put your RP taverns in an open foundry instance, then! Or, better yet, step outside the cliche and RP in a totally different setting for once, the tavern paradigm has been done for 40 years now.
The reason for making taverns single is for natural, open world Roleplay. You can make the foundries now, problem is (as has been said) the 5 player limit.
I stated static instances foundries in the original post; however, I do not think they will solve the condition or be a cure for the lack of natural tavern Roleplay caused by event vendors and quest givers being put there. If you make foundries static, yes you'll be able to host a tavern or a house - And that would be nice. As for solving the issue of the most casual and abundant form of Roleplay, tavern Roleplay, I do not feel this is the cure. Though, it would be a nice asset to the roleplayers of Neverwinter.
How would a foundry that allows unlimited people(or much more people than 5) with a design that can be anything you want, from taverns to anything you can think of, NOT solve the problem?
It's just as easy as choosing one RP foundry and let it be known in game and the forums and it would be filled with people.
Although I'm not sure it can be done because of coding. If it can't be done, single instance taverns would be the best next idea.
RPers always have it harder on MMO's to find good ways to RP. I come from Tera that even if it has single instance places, it hardly has any interiors where to RP. You can't even walk in there, only run, wich also makes RPing a bit harder.
What about other places like the magic shop or the tower in PE? Are they single instance?
How would a foundry that allows unlimited people(or much more people than 5) with a design that can be anything you want, from taverns to anything you can think of, NOT solve the problem?
It's just as easy as choosing one RP foundry and let it be known in game and the forums and it would be filled with people.
Although I'm not sure it can be done because of coding. If it can't be done, single instance taverns would be the best next idea.
Because even if you raised the player limit, foundries would still require pre-planning and invitation.
The point of the taverns is its open world, meaning anyone can walk in and it gives chances to interact with people you don't know.
meeting new people and not having it all feel rehearsed.
Preplanning and invitation? It's not really hard to decide a RP place, the same way the Moonstone mask was decided before, you can use the forums, chat channels in game, etc.
Once one place is decided then it's easy to meet new people in there because RPers would know where to go to RP, because I assume that RPers would have some way of contacting eachother, a specific chat channel, or just being aware of when RPers are talking ingame saying where they can gather.
Preplanning and invitation? It's not really hard to decide a RP place, the same way the Moonstone mask was decided before, you can use the forums, chat channels in game, etc.
Once one place is decided then it's easy to meet new people in there because RPers would know where to go to RP, because I assume that RPers would have some way of contacting eachother, a specific chat channel, or just being aware of when RPers are talking ingame saying where they can gather.
You assume correctly about there being an RP channel, however, the entire RP channel lit up in flames each time we've had the mask taken away from us, and the fact zones outside of PE you need an invite from a higher level if you're a low level to get to the other RP spots doesn't help.
People stumbled into the mask and found RP that way though, you're not accidentally going to stumble into the foundry rp maps to find rp, you have to be actively seeking it to do those, and even then... there are likely to be many MANY open foundry rp maps even if they make them so they can constantly be open, which makes that idea more of a gamble than single instancing the taverns in the game.
The major reason I want to see all the taverns single instanced is because it will be easier for everyone that might be interested in rp to find each other to RP. Also, making those single instance will be much easier than creating the 'open' foundry instances. Given that the taverns already are set where you need to zone into them, it implies that the transition node simply needs changed so that they really are their own zone.
There are individuals that are new to the game still and don't yet know about the rp channels, or, surprise, don't use the forums. Its much easier to find each other, and to stumble on an active RP community if the instances are pared down to single instance in certain locations (like the driftwood, or sage's shops) so that people going into them are more likely to stumble across the like minded.
The reason the single instance taverns are so important is so we can actually find more of those that are like minded easily, without having to pre-plan and designate each little thing.
Honestly, asking that the taverns get their own single instances isn't asking a lot, and it'd help draw more of the RP crowd that do not know about the RP channel in. I know plenty of people that only found out about it after months that rp - and were not aware of the like minded groups.
The mask was chosen because it is a single instance area - not because it's a high class bar. The fact it's now overrun with people that are just doing the daily has once again frustrated and driven off much of the RP crowd.
The point of the taverns is its open world, meaning anyone can walk in and it gives chances to interact with people you don't know.
Easiest/fastest fix - instance all the taverns (and maybe some of the various low population shops).
Also, we're still waiting on more cosmetic armor that isnt courtesan, some sort of noble or a... fairy...
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You assume correctly about there being an RP channel, however, the entire RP channel lit up in flames each time we've had the mask taken away from us, and the fact zones outside of PE you need an invite from a higher level if you're a low level to get to the other RP spots doesn't help.
People stumbled into the mask and found RP that way though, you're not accidentally going to stumble into the foundry rp maps to find rp, you have to be actively seeking it to do those, and even then... there are likely to be many MANY open foundry rp maps even if they make them so they can constantly be open, which makes that idea more of a gamble than single instancing the taverns in the game.
The major reason I want to see all the taverns single instanced is because it will be easier for everyone that might be interested in rp to find each other to RP. Also, making those single instance will be much easier than creating the 'open' foundry instances. Given that the taverns already are set where you need to zone into them, it implies that the transition node simply needs changed so that they really are their own zone.
There are individuals that are new to the game still and don't yet know about the rp channels, or, surprise, don't use the forums. Its much easier to find each other, and to stumble on an active RP community if the instances are pared down to single instance in certain locations (like the driftwood, or sage's shops) so that people going into them are more likely to stumble across the like minded.
The reason the single instance taverns are so important is so we can actually find more of those that are like minded easily, without having to pre-plan and designate each little thing.
Honestly, asking that the taverns get their own single instances isn't asking a lot, and it'd help draw more of the RP crowd that do not know about the RP channel in. I know plenty of people that only found out about it after months that rp - and were not aware of the like minded groups.
The mask was chosen because it is a single instance area - not because it's a high class bar. The fact it's now overrun with people that are just doing the daily has once again frustrated and driven off much of the RP crowd.
Easiest/fastest fix - instance all the taverns (and maybe some of the various low population shops).
Also, we're still waiting on more cosmetic armor that isnt courtesan, some sort of noble or a... fairy...
Pretty much said it all right there that I had to say on that subject issue.
I agree that the single instance taverns are probably much easier to do, but I feel the open foundry has much more potential, why do RPers always have to gather in a tavern? It's geting way old.
But hey, I'm not personally an RPer, at least not yet, so what do I know? XD
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vampirecavyMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 55Arc User
edited October 2013
We mostly used the Moonstone Mask because it was single instance - we didn't have to sit alone and twiddle our thumbs while everybody partied in an alternate dimension. Now it is NOT single instance - there were two, last I checked, and even more during the Waukeen event. Plus, if you start trying to RP in something like that, people tend to start immediately trolling it. I'm not even sure how the occasional Enclave-based RP I know of manages to actually survive.
That said: the way I see it, our biggest problem is that RPers have no real way to connect with the Mask not being used as a hub. We can get ourselves together once we know each other, but the Mask is mainly used as a way to get new people into the RP scene. Letting the mask be used ONLY for this is a simple solution, but I kind of think a broader, more over-arching solution to this would be ideal. idk how to do this though.
The base core issue for Rpers is lack of mutual hubs for others to meet freely. Single Instance Taverns would help that, and give a bit of variety instead of going to the same tavern all the time like the Mask.
Mutual single instanced high population capped foundaries are good for any aspect of roleplay.
While the regular foundaries can be used as adventures for roleplay, as they are now. But its difficult to get to that step when the core issue I gave above is missing/lacking there of.
Comments
People can react to a description of a non-displayed item just as easily as a displayed one, such as a unique ring worn that has some important character related detail about it, which is an item that would never be shown well in the game.
Further, no matter how many pieces of clothing are added to the game, the particular item of clothing desired by a player for his character may not be among them. So, adding more items is not some sort of universal panacea.
As I said, such things are nice, but not needed, regardless of medium. Descriptive ability and imagination will suffice, as they always have, when the available visible items are lacking, which they will perpetually always be.
If one can't role-play without a visual item to support their role-play, it is a crutch. I do not debate that requesting visual items to aid in role-play is on point.
They are, though, a want, not a need, as one can role-play without them. They only become a need when they are actually required for role-play, which they are not.
Need is founded on necessity, not desire.
You guys totally deserve the Driftwood, but until i can get my own cubby-hole apartment (a la Skyrim) it's the most convenient refuge i can find
Any game, including shooters, is a role-playing game, if players chose to role-play while playing it. A developer can't add role-play to a game, no matter how many role-play friendly features they put in, nor can they remove it by not providing those features. Role-play isn't a game related function. It is a player related function, that occurs or not at the whim of those playing any particular game. Role-play can not be given or taken by the makers of a game, as it isn't a matter of their choosing.
In fact dropping the merchants for the events smack dab in established RP area where they know mobs of people will pack the zone is kind of in opposition to RP and could actually be seen as a direct slap in the face.
Of course to be perfectly honest this MMO has very little room for RP. Its biggest mainstay is the active combat system which it employs amazingly well. But beyond that even though it is a DnD game it doesn't have a lot of that DnD Rp feeling we had in lets say NWN1 or even to NWN2. Both of which were based on the same geography and Faerun campaign setting.
If you really want more RP in this particular MMO I think the best course of action is to create methods they can make $$ from the RP crowd and feed it to their marketers who have most of the control of the design in the game. Not really a fun idea but it is something.
Putting the event vendors in the Moonstone just shows that the developers do not give one single rip about the roleplay community (and before someone starts in with "But they let you do emotes and have sitting animations!" I'll stop you in your tracks, because even that much in this game is way behind par with every other MMO out there... for the Gods' sakes, you can't even lie down without killing yourself). Cryptic had better start paying attention to its RP demographic, because we're the ones that are going to stick around, while the hack-and-slashers move on to the next shiny thing that's dangled in front of them (HINT: Elder Scrolls Online is coming.)
I will not have any respect for the developers of this game until they stop destroying our roleplay hubs... or at least ADDRESS US TO LET US KNOW YOU'RE LISTENING. Let there be no mistake, the ball is absolutely in their court. They have taken RP off the shoulders of the roleplayers, and stomped it into the ground.
I agree solely here. they have a hard enough time communicating with the regular players. Communicating with the Rpers is even less likely. But I very much agree with everything here.
And then we of course have the fact that this basically means Roleplay in the Moonstone Mask has become a total no-no, which is a real shame because I felt the place was built for it especially. I'd -really- like to ask the developers to see if its possible to move future event merchants/vendors into the main Protector's Enclave zone. Forcing hundreds of players into such a small area is an absolute torture for computers and laptops with less than state of the art equipment. Its also incredibly impractical for people with a high latency connection who basically can only take one step at a time to 'lag-walk' to the vendor.
Bottom line: The current implementation of event vendors is impractical not just for RPers, but for everyone who plays the game.
Why are the rpers so upset about the Moonstone you ask? Easy it is because it is the only place in the game that has only one instance and were a rper can find random rp should they happen to not be in a guild or without any guild members online. Now they are taking that away from us as well for what reason I am still not really sure.
As for making due with the tools we have, yes most roleplay can be created in ones own imagination, however you would look pretty silly roleplaying with yourself cause there is no other place to find like minded players.
I would like to see what the forums would be like if they took pvp out of the game for six days, I can assure you there would be some major *****ing and gripping going on then. If Cryptic doesn't want roleplayers here all they need to do is say so, instead of slowly pushing us out.
Just my two cents.
"Blindness is a private matter between a person and the eyes they choose to use. For there are none so blind as those that do not listen dalharil"
My Comments to this:
We Roleplayers do not NEED (The word "Need" being used as an end-all-be-all here) these things to Role Play at a basic level, you are correct- As shown by the Roleplaying community now: We Role Play without these things.
With that said, I feel these things improve the game, the quality of Role Play within Neverwinter, and as well as helping the one true factor between "Role Play" and "Great Role Play" - Immersion.
Immersion is vital to keeping interest and storytelling at their peaks. If you can not bring yourself to take on the role of a character- His/her flaws, quirks, attitude, and style - you are not going to be able to sustain long and interesting Role Play... That's the bottom line.
One thing that helps Immersion is portraying your character's appearance EXACLY how you feel they should be looked at by other characters on first glance.Things like:
- Are they always armored?
- The Character's race, How they carry it?
- Do they appear of a commonwealth, or a noble?
- Do they look like a brawler ready to fight, or are they dressed for social graces?
... And Really? Do I need to Explain dice rolling? Just Google it - It'll save us both some time.
I am glad to see the support for designated Instanced zones, and single instanced taverns. I also noticed a few talking against the idea of making all Taverns single instanced, and you have a fairly good point:
Some people like being alone in a nice, calm place with not so many people bussling about; And that is fine.
I personally feel the other taverns would make great alternatives to the Mask, since they are not used by many. It would almost bring more people to the Role Playing community I feel. There are many people who don't even know the Moonstone Mask existed until last week - As proved by Zone Chat.
And Cryptic... I'm thoroughly disappointed in the placement of this "Masquerade of Liars" event's quest giver. The Moonstone Mask is our ONLY single instanced zone that has been, and is STILL being used by us Roleplayers...
Why are you doing this?
Regards,
Floingis
I hate to say it, but I think that's exactly why they put the vendor there -- so people who didn't know about it would have a reason to visit it and hopefully, as a consequence, discover what it's for and have fun using it to RP in the future. Problem is that it hasn't worked to this effect at all.
Or maybe they just put the vendor there for the lulz, but that's the only logical reason I can think of. Otherwise Waukeen's vendor should have been closer to the marketplace and/or AH to make sense with the merchant vibe.
Kaylee Krankenwagen, level 60 GF | Tavandruil Wayfinder, level 49 GWF | Aldith Langley, level 51 HR
All taverns are instanced, everyone meets in tavern, then heads out in same instance to quest/dungeon together. Easy.
As for cosmetic armors, yes, I can rp without them, however there are other games I can rp in with the cosmetic armors I want - but not as high quality graphics or the lore I want to RP in.
The RP community is not asking for a lot. Yes, we understand that removing each inn from the main maps will take reworking the nodes slightly, but I expect PWE will not have issue doing this if they chose to set them into their own instances.
I want to see the event vendors removed from the mask. Yes, we got it, they're either advertising that the mask exists or don't care about it being disruptive to us. We're asking that all of the taverns be removed from the main instances much like the mask currently is.
Dice for combat is one method I've seen outside of para rp to decide hits/misses. It keeps some of the god-moding down for those that feel they need to use it.
I'd love to see cosmetics much like what the NPCs in PE are wearing added to the store, and to see some cosmetic armor/pants like the pantaloons that were added during the waukeen event that are not shiny metallic.
I'm not worried about having large zones such as PE designated for RP, however I would like to see a sort of Foundry that allows a larger (or no) cap to players in the instance. The foundry would be unable to have any form of mobs added, but could have NPCs that talk added to them. Ineligible for daily foundry and under their own 'RP' foundry tab/tag. The difficulty would probably be allowing people to join the same rp foundry as others that are already in it without having to be in a pt - I don't doubt PWE/Cryptic can do it though. I'm confident Cryptic would be able to come up with something that'd allow this over time - the advantage for them would be it's user gen content that caters to the RP community, by the RP community - so if they gave us foundrys like this the rp community really wouldn't have much room to ***** about not having the RP zones they want, as they'd be able to make the zones themselves.
Right now the biggest changes I'd request are:
More cosmetic armor options.
-female pants without flaps to the front/back or any form of skirt.
-loose female pants without flaps to the front/back or any form of skirt. (Would not mind seeing a variant like the pantaloons both tight and loose that are a matte/flat color so they can be dyed without being shiny).
-Male pants like the pantaloons that are not shiny.
-Cosmetic armor like the clothing worn by the NPCs in Protector's Enclave.
Separate instances:
-All taverns put onto their own map/instance like the Moonstone Mask currently is; which means those taverns etc being given their own zone chats as well.
Foundry (Lower priority in my opinion but still on the 'would really like' list.)
-Guild hall
-Player housing.
-Open RP zones that anyone can join after accepting the appropriate Foundry quest.
The mask seems to be a terrible place for RPers now, and we're organizing more and more to RP elsewhere, but it is still very difficult for us to actually meet any new RPers. Previously you had a universal area that anyone of any level and any knowledge level on working the chat UI could meet up to RP. Meeting to RP in certain other zones just meant you ran the risk of everything you say getting scrolled up for the newer players, or excluded low level RPers from the events.
I do 'just rp' as someone said before, but there are certain tools I'd like to see for immersion. Some things it's easier to be able to 'show' as far as outfits and/or the colors of the outfits rather than having to type every little bit out every single time I enter a tavern/etc. While I still describe everything I can of what my character is wearing/doing when I go anywhere, I still sometimes miss things that a good set of RP gear might 'show' for anyone around me.
Yes, and as I've just suggested, a videogame needs visual assets to play with; it's a necessity, because it's a videogame. Otherwise we might as well be playing a MUD.
Of course you can roleplay without them, nobody's doubting that. You can roleplay in a any videogame just as you can roleplay without a videogame, since so much roleplay is in the mind anyway.
But a videogame that invites roleplayers that doesn't have visual things in the videogame for roleplayers, isn't doing its job as a videogame for roleplayers. (Not that the situation is that bad, of course, there are some facilities.)
As I said, you can bet that Cryptic think they need to put in more stuff for roleplayers, and that they want to too. It's a no-brainer. The reason they're not in is doubtless because roleplayers, while intended to be catered for, are not top priority. They no doubt have plans to introduce things, but they have other, higher priorities for a while.
I understand the point you are making, but it's preaching to the choir in one sense, and irrelevant in another. Roleplayers usually make do with whatever they have, if they like a setting. And the game isn't too bad from an RP perspective, in terms of conveniences (e.g. there are a few places where you can rp relatively undisturbed if you want to - and you can even create your own, which is a biggie). But still and all, Cryptic could definitely do more, especially considering the D&D lineage. Right at this moment, I can think of a few MMOs that are more rp-friendly asset-wise - aside from the Foundry - (actually even CoH was).
Actually, on a broader topic, I envisage the Foundry developing into something where a Foundry designer, or their delegate, could DM their instance (i.e. "possess" mobs, etc., much as in a NWN PW). Now that would be something special
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and be an open single instanced.
As it is now, if its a foundary. Every person has to enter at the same time. Cant have anyone entering later after a group has already entered.
I'm fairly sure it's just a matter of changing them from transition point in same instance to transition point to another instance like the moonstone mask.
The biggest issue with not having a central RP area like the mask (because right now we're avoiding it because of the crowds making it impossible to deal with the crowds) is that there is no central known location we can all go to that is single instance and not a gamble of bouncing through each one inside the zone on the chance that maybe someone else might be active in one of them.
I'd even go so far as to ask for areas like the Sage's Shop being single instanced much like the mask.
There are some very well done buildings that'd be ideal for the RPers to meet up in and play together in. I don't think we're asking a lot, none of what we're requesting is going to make or break endgame content. It will however help keep and draw in more of the RP crowd and show others with the desire to rp that NW does have a community for it.
We realize as well, if we don't post and ask for things, Cryptic won't know we want the changes or that they have a demand for changes like these.
Not a fan of access to vip room. I did not buy it, by the way, but already we have seen erosion of the perks from the pack (slowing adding similar toys to the store or in-game). Let the people that shelled out have a couple of things that no one else can have.
Taverns... we don't need all the stuff about taverns that you listed if they fix the foundry. Not only would the foundry serve as guild hall and homes, it could serve as ANY type of RP setting. Put your RP taverns in an open foundry instance, then! Or, better yet, step outside the cliche and RP in a totally different setting for once, the tavern paradigm has been done for 40 years now.
It might be a performance issue with number of requests to the database (i.e. load): having only 1 NPC can limit the number of interactions with the NPC during a certain span of time, thus limiting the frequency of requests to the database. Since everything data-driven in the game has to touch the database/storage, keeping it responsive is important since it affects everything.
There may be some other reason, and we'll never know what the real reason is, but don't assume that the devs just don't care or don't have a good reason for doing something.
Rar'rizton Kenana, Level 60 Drow Elf Trickster Rogue
Syrus Greycloak, Level 30 Moon Elf Control Wizard
Lucan Huntinghawk, Level 17 Moon Elf Hunter Ranger
Sacred Silver Blades (www.sacredkeep.com)
The reason for making taverns single is for natural, open world Roleplay. You can make the foundries now, problem is (as has been said) the 5 player limit.
I stated static instances foundries in the original post; however, I do not think they will solve the condition or be a cure for the lack of natural tavern Roleplay caused by event vendors and quest givers being put there. If you make foundries static, yes you'll be able to host a tavern or a house - And that would be nice. As for solving the issue of the most casual and abundant form of Roleplay, tavern Roleplay, I do not feel this is the cure. Though, it would be a nice asset to the roleplayers of Neverwinter.
Stay vigilant,
Floingis
It's just as easy as choosing one RP foundry and let it be known in game and the forums and it would be filled with people.
Although I'm not sure it can be done because of coding. If it can't be done, single instance taverns would be the best next idea.
RPers always have it harder on MMO's to find good ways to RP. I come from Tera that even if it has single instance places, it hardly has any interiors where to RP. You can't even walk in there, only run, wich also makes RPing a bit harder.
What about other places like the magic shop or the tower in PE? Are they single instance?
Because even if you raised the player limit, foundries would still require pre-planning and invitation.
The point of the taverns is its open world, meaning anyone can walk in and it gives chances to interact with people you don't know.
meeting new people and not having it all feel rehearsed.
Once one place is decided then it's easy to meet new people in there because RPers would know where to go to RP, because I assume that RPers would have some way of contacting eachother, a specific chat channel, or just being aware of when RPers are talking ingame saying where they can gather.
People stumbled into the mask and found RP that way though, you're not accidentally going to stumble into the foundry rp maps to find rp, you have to be actively seeking it to do those, and even then... there are likely to be many MANY open foundry rp maps even if they make them so they can constantly be open, which makes that idea more of a gamble than single instancing the taverns in the game.
The major reason I want to see all the taverns single instanced is because it will be easier for everyone that might be interested in rp to find each other to RP. Also, making those single instance will be much easier than creating the 'open' foundry instances. Given that the taverns already are set where you need to zone into them, it implies that the transition node simply needs changed so that they really are their own zone.
There are individuals that are new to the game still and don't yet know about the rp channels, or, surprise, don't use the forums. Its much easier to find each other, and to stumble on an active RP community if the instances are pared down to single instance in certain locations (like the driftwood, or sage's shops) so that people going into them are more likely to stumble across the like minded.
The reason the single instance taverns are so important is so we can actually find more of those that are like minded easily, without having to pre-plan and designate each little thing.
Honestly, asking that the taverns get their own single instances isn't asking a lot, and it'd help draw more of the RP crowd that do not know about the RP channel in. I know plenty of people that only found out about it after months that rp - and were not aware of the like minded groups.
The mask was chosen because it is a single instance area - not because it's a high class bar. The fact it's now overrun with people that are just doing the daily has once again frustrated and driven off much of the RP crowd.
Easiest/fastest fix - instance all the taverns (and maybe some of the various low population shops).
Also, we're still waiting on more cosmetic armor that isnt courtesan, some sort of noble or a... fairy...
Pretty much said it all right there that I had to say on that subject issue.
But hey, I'm not personally an RPer, at least not yet, so what do I know? XD
That said: the way I see it, our biggest problem is that RPers have no real way to connect with the Mask not being used as a hub. We can get ourselves together once we know each other, but the Mask is mainly used as a way to get new people into the RP scene. Letting the mask be used ONLY for this is a simple solution, but I kind of think a broader, more over-arching solution to this would be ideal. idk how to do this though.
Mutual single instanced high population capped foundaries are good for any aspect of roleplay.
While the regular foundaries can be used as adventures for roleplay, as they are now. But its difficult to get to that step when the core issue I gave above is missing/lacking there of.