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GWF vs GF, Both classes Strengths and Weakness
zardoz007
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 2 Arc User
http://i.imgur.com/v2fXfES.jpg
These are screenshots taken from a lv 60 Destroyer Spec GWF equipped only with the Fabled Greatsword, and a lv 60 Conquere spec GF equipped only with the Fabled Longsword. All other gear removed so I can get as close as base Damage and Cooldowns of these powers as possible.
The comparisons in base damage speaks for itself.
But this is what I see. The GWF At wills are sub par, especially Sure strike. There is no reason why cleave should have area, more damage and no diminishing returns. Sure strike should be buffed to be balanced with Cleave. And to give it back the area it had in beta. It is still in the tooltip as you see. That way Weapon masters strike becomes the classes debuff at-will instead of the GWF's prime damage dealer.
GWF's do not have any moves besides Crescendo that deal noticeably more damage than their GF counter part.
And as we all know GWF's do not have tank tools that compare to GF or Control powers that can compare to a GF. GWF's only advantage over the GF is higher crit since GF's do not have a secondary stat that increases crit like the GWF does.
I know there are a few GWF players out there that are ignorant to what other classes can do and they don't understand why GWF get all this hate in game. So they blame it on haters and flamers on these forums for the GWFs bad reputation. But it is the Devs that gave the GWF this bad reputation for nerfing it into the ground and not giving it anything back. We as players see this. For the class to have any hope something needs to be done to buff the GWF and not nerf the other classes. Since all the other classes would need to be nerfed.
Post edited by zardoz007 on
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in my experience, gwf outdamages gf in pve hands down up to 60.
also, i think you're comparison doesn't hold up because the GF atm is getting x2 power, which he starts losing as soon as he starts blocking.
2) Did you account for attack speed, including the attack speed increase incorporated in Unstoppable (as mentioned above)?
3) How does weapon damage factor in? Does the increased weapon damage of a GWF attenuate any disparities in tool tip damage?
It seems the best comparisons would not be through tool tips, but from damage on a target. You should consider parsing the DPS of both the characters in question. If you do so, please make sure that their damage bonus from strength, and crit bonuses are similar. In short, I'm not sure you have an accurate measure for comparison currently, and you have not controlled for many variables.
Just some thoughts.
The point is a GWF should be obviously doing more damage than a GF with no room for argument. With a GF superior defense powers, control powers threat and party buffs. A GWF has no place in a group if a GF can do comparable damage to a GWF. GF just bring so much more to the table.
And you know it.
We have all seen that one GWF in a group who can only beat the DC in damage and loses to all other classes. And we know that guy is a terrible GWF, no matter how tanky he may be. Then if we see a GF with the exact same numbers, we dont think he is bad as long as he is holding threat and buffing the party and being a tank with control powers.
When I look at these numbers especially the GF numbers I know they are too low. My GF's Cleave deals 1500 damage per hit and my GWFs Sure strike is around 800 per hit. Both have Fomorian weapons. And I know for a fact that my GWF can only beat my GF in damage in specific dungeons, where the GWF can gain the advantage of his area attacks over the GF's smaller area at-wills, or my GF is forced to kite and not do damage. And it is hard to do because the GF has better Area and damage encounters and dailies. Basically by being surrounded by mobs 24/7 a GWF will win in damage. GF's have better single target damage and they do better damage than a GWF with cleave to a cluster of Arcane Singularity gathered mobs. So to find the niche where GWF are better is hard.
GWF's damage and survivability is superior to GF's.
GF can group buff and taunt which makes them valuable in pve.
Math does not translate to gameplay.
Unstoppable is > block.
Comparison is my guild group with Dest GWF and Conq GF both with MC weps and greater lightning enchant.
I know for a fact that GF's have the 2nd best single target DPS in the game you cannot beat an encounter power that doubles the damage of your Daily and two other encounter powers. Especially when the GF's single target encounter Anvil of Doom does more damage than the GWF's best Encounter Indomitable Battle Strike. I have ran dungeons as both classes top geared with all the DPS focus each class can muster, Other GF's and GWF's can't compare to my Damage. And when I get to play a GF as pure damage when I'm taking a guildie new tanking GF for his T2's playing the same role in a dungoen that I used to play GWF as. I know GF's are at the same level or better than a GWF.
Now the GF's single target At Will crushing surge was not posted in these lists and that does 10-20% more damage than cleave and recently got a 17% attack speed boost in the same patch that nerfed the GWF's defenses. It is very hard to justify GWF's attack speed and crit when the GF's Crushing surges base damage is about double that of Sure strike. And crushing surges utility is a self heal/ Better damage, better utility but maybe a little less speed than sure strike. What really irritates me the most about these numbers is the base damage of Greatswords compared to longswords. Greatsowrds base damage is about 40-50% higher than a longsword yet greatswords at-wills deal less damage than longsword at-wills but maybe has a speed bonus?
I am beginning to believe that the only reason why the GWF players that still play say they can get groups okay as a GWF is simply because all these other GWF players have given up and quit and now the demand for GWF players has hit the Supply of GWF players that are left. IE very small in both regards.
I fight for a GWF buff because I want to see tanks in the game become more prominent. GF needs a little work too but the work a GF needs is not as obvious as improving poor stats and numbers like the GWF's is. The GWF fixes that are needed are simply buffing the GWF if the devs can't get that right what hope is there for any class balance in this game? Will module two become the new game of DC, CW and Ranger since the devs really have a hard time balancing melee classes?
In malabog , for example , do several times , i inflict between 5k aoe (not critical ) 9/11/13k ( 16k critical record ) vs max 5 oponents in intervals between 2/3sec ( use reaping strike) . Solo average is 5/7/8 not critical , 16/24 / 28k (record32 critical in other dd ) in the same range with the same Atwill . Unstoppable the value drops a bit , but I do it 3 times in less time that I would do 1/5 .
Now let's skip to pirate king , who is the last experience I had with a gf damage . Well, I have not had these exact values , but what I can say is it was running faster than I had in life. He and I would go ahead and destroy everything quickly , bosses, adds , everything. To get an idea , there was no time to have cw reaction (which was a feat ours) . Killed almost the entire dd just us two . We were both surprised at the good team we have formed .
Well , he was slightly ahead of me in general damages . My point : curious as to how he beat me on the last boss, I left him alone to fight . The subject was not taking damage and was almost dying . I had to go back to help him, depleted the head ... yet he ended up in front of me .
What is the source of damage gf ? Aoe ?Daily ? encounter? Has any chance of being with gwf counter negative?
Gwf's when geared correctly out dps GF's.
Knights challenge is a poor single target dps choice and is really only suitable for pvp. Or if you can be bothered switching to in combination with anvil of doom when <25% on bosses.
Gwf's need a buff in their taunt department. That's it.
The dependency on gear, lack of taunt and general anti social behavior of gamers these days, is why the gwf probably gets a bad rep in pugs.
GF's need to lose the block mechanic and get something else.
All my opinion.
Now if you look at the chart that was posted you see Anvil of doom deals more damage than IBS and when the boss is below 25% the damage is doubled. Knights challenge doubles all Damage the GF and his target deal for a few short seconds. So That anvil of doom can potentially deal 5 times more damage than a GF's IBS when doubled by knights chalaenge and redoubled by 25% hp or less boss.
GWF have the lowest single target DPS of any of the 5 classes. GF is Number 2, and yes TR's mop the floor with that kind of damage.
Also note this My GF's numbers are at least 30% higher than the posted numbers on this chart because I'm conquere spec with a butt load of power. As long as the DC keeps my HP up high enough to only block only CC moves I do tons of damage.
GWF Need to deal more damage than a GF with a little more threat, or they need to be full tanks equal in every way to the GF with control and threat powers. I would rather see them as heavy damage/tank hybrids that could out DPS a CW as a glass cannon or deal more damage than a GF and still be able to hold threat agaisnt TR's and CW with sentinel spec.
This would give them a unique role in the group and they really should be the best Offensive tank in the game. But alas we players constantly argue about the pointless little things and so players and devs alike ignore the fact that the GWF population is the smallest of the 5 classes and it is still the unspoken boycott class of any party. In fact when the devs try to fix the GWF problem they nerf the class and makes things much much worse.
1GF, 1 TR, 1 DC, 2 CW and we are good for all dungeons... what can't get a TR okay mayby get a GWF if we can't get a third CW. And often when I do that his damage is pathetic.
You will have to explain this gear you speak off, because my GWF has all the dps Toys and is equally geared to my GF I am a Damage beast on my GWF. But that is all he is. And my GF equals my GWF damage and is a tank, kiter, controller and party buffer
And no Knights challenge owns in PvE when single target is needed and you can take the extra damage. Specifically I'm speaking of Aboleth Overseer when a GF needs to solo him instead of kite, and Fulminorax as that fight is pure single target Damage for all classes. True in other fights where it would be useful and I'm on boss I still tend to use Terrifying Impact and Frontline surge to knock down any adds that surround me. Because I like GF control
If all GWFs get is a threat upgrade say put them on par with the GF then they are effective tanks that have the same survivability and damage as the GF but they would lack the control powers and Party buffs. But yes definitely a step in the right direction.
I dont think any GF would be happy about losing block. It just makes sense as the class defense move, and I dont think any other power could replace it. Now there tab move can definitely be tossed for something else. All I use it for is pulling and kiting
Looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree.
I'm talking in general terms and you are giving examples that require a cleric to babysit you and only 'two' fights from an entire game.
Its also a differing playstyle, which is great, because this game at times lacks a little diversity. For example I'd happily give up block to try something else, but I'd grind my teeth for days if I lost ranged taunt.
The gwf brings great damage and doesnt need a healer, can rez in red circles and is basically a saviour if you get an unlucky dmg spike or other clutch moments. It pretty essential to our group play.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2Mnnjponj4
* Are not my best damage (mostly single), and party values are much higher (not to mention that I used sprint wrong most of the time). But is feedback, with the image of beautiful aya and berserk music ... hehe
Turning: From what you told me, and now makes a lot of sense for the experiences I had, the damage gf is nothing more than "supplement" the gwf. I do the "heavy job" and he ends up as an adjustment dps / tank.
In the particular case, I am a destroyer of 42% defense and the performance gf vs Pirate King, he should be less than that. We could switch, I being more offensive and more defensive it, but anyway, it was to weigh the scales to the side of gwf ...