And in that vein, maybe the should also fix Impossible to Catch so it's a skill used to escape, not to become an invulnerable super-tank. Like if it inflicted a -75% damage penalty and maybe gave a 15% speed boost. And fix GF block so it doesn't break almost instantly to some attacks. Probably also reduce the duration of Smoke Bomb and increase the cooldown of Takedown. And fix the animation of some GWF skills to make them easier to dodge. Maybe give TRs a speed penalty while stealthy or make them visible at greater range while in stealth. Maybe reduce the damage Impact Shots do.
The GF prone chain is too strong in many circumstances, but it's hardly the only issue they should take a look at for balance purposes. It can be interrupted if an ally CCs the GF, whereas a GWF in unstoppable using Flourish and Takedown can't be.
While we are at it I'd just like Impact Shots fixed.
Like GF prone chain impact shot chain is equally inescapable, you try to dodge and you rubberband back to receive more of those **** shots. Something is wrong here, propably latency/network code issue.
Cryptic needs to fix their latency issues or just add slight delay on how fast you can spam impact shots, I'd strongly prefer fixing the latency.
While we are at it I'd just like Impact Shots fixed.
Like GF prone chain impact shot chain is equally inescapable, you try to dodge and you rubberband back to receive more of those **** shots. Something is wrong here, propably latency/network code issue.
Cryptic needs to fix their latency issues or just add slight delay on how fast you can spam impact shots, I'd strongly prefer fixing the latency.
It can't be called rubberbanding if i guard first IS, that root and the second IS root me IN guard. The first is maybe really due latency, but the second is a bug.
Tr's ITC breaks out of CW's joke unstoppable does the same.
Prone you can't do anything, which is fine when it happens once, but chain prone from a gf is total bs.
If gf's couldn't do that then people wouldmt have an issue, and it' no diff to a TR 1 shotting any class, they nerfed the damage so now it's only the weakest of geared with those who are very well geared that can manage it.
Gf's can chain prone people's until dead regardless of the persons gear you are doing it to.
Sorry, but it needs to be fixed, you all QQed about gwf unstoppable, it was fixed, you QQ'ed about TR's, they were nerfed.
It's time the gf was fixed because of how op that is.
Soon as its fixed so one person can't chain prone someone you watch how many no longer play the FOTM.
Actually no. I've never complained about GWF's or TR's and think that no one needs to be nerfed. Those who are qq'ing need to think about how they're playing and start doing PvP as a team sport.
Nothing needs to be fixed about a GF. It's not like TR where you can't see them coming or a CW who can hit you from a distance and keep moving away. You see the GF coming, you and your team act accordingly.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It's good to see people coming out to defend the chain prone of a GF, it's just like the rally of GWF's and even TR's before they were nerfed /cough fixed.
Don't worry, it will get fixed.
It's fine. I can can still stun chain kill people without prones.
If you get chain proned by a GF from full life to death, then he either had a daily ready, or you are just too squishy. GF's only have 2 encounters to knock you prone. All this whining is coming from people that were already half dead when the GF got there, or somehow only have 15-18k HP.
Also, if you are sub 60, and complaining in this thread...stop, just stop.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If you get chain proned by a GF from full life to death, then he either had a daily ready, or you are just too squishy.
You probably never meet any pro GFs. If they get to you, daily or not, you're done for, stuck in some wall "Unable" to do anything, listening the sweet music of shields bashing your head again and again. Trick is to not let them get to you, but sometimes... yeah. Sometimes they're just pro enough.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You probably never meet any pro GFs. If they get to you, daily or not, you're done for, stuck in some wall "Unable" to do anything, listening the sweet music of shields bashing your head again and again. Trick is to not let them get to you, but sometimes... yeah. Sometimes they're just pro enough.
The biggest mistakes I see people making when faced with an approaching GF are:
Bad positioning. Don't back into a wall. You will die.
Bad timing. GF gap closers aren't too difficult to dodge. They aren't instant teleports, you've got at least 0.5-1 sec to shift away.
Misjudged range. Frontline surge has more range than many people think. Lunge has a very long range, but is easy to dodge. If you're already in range of threatening rush...well, I hope you have a full stamina bar.
If you can't kill the GF, you're best standing him/her off until an ally comes to help. Wizards (with the correct encounters and timing) are good at this, very good. DC's are also very capable of it if tank spec. TR's I find have the most trouble vs GFs.
Depends. Most Rogues I've seen lately run around with a huge ArmPen score and even get to Perfect Terror. Of course there are those with Greater-Perfect Vorpal that can dagger you to death after depleting your shield with a Flurry. In general, as a GF I find hard to battle GWFs that know what they are doing (i.e. sprinting to my back) and high geared rogues. As you see, I mentioned the two classes that can kill you by running too much Deflect which is the bane of GF (at least tank DCs can be contained for your CWs to finish).
So to the OP, if you have trouble with GF's damage try a deflect build. If you can't then you are probably one of those guys that can dodge them indefinitely. Complaining about a huge random hit, when you are focused by 4 players...doesn't make any sense.
You probably never meet any pro GFs. If they get to you, daily or not, you're done for, stuck in some wall "Unable" to do anything, listening the sweet music of shields bashing your head again and again. Trick is to not let them get to you, but sometimes... yeah. Sometimes they're just pro enough.
I would argue that this list of "pro" GF's must be extremely short then. So short, that this whole conversation is a moot point. I play a 15.8k GS GF (Step Child), and regularly rock folks in PvP. If you are unable to do anything from 2x prone creating encounters, then you are simply a sub par PvP'er. My experience is not based on being on the receiving end, but rather the giving. And believe me, Step Child can hit just as hard as any of them. (From a combat log yesterday: [23:26] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lunging Strike deals 25891 (21701) Physical to Wolfgang.) <-- result of Threatening Rush, Knights Challenge and Perfect Bronzewood.
Those whom I prone 2 times and kill, usually simply don't move after the 2nd prone, because they just gave up....or they were not full HP to begin with (or I slotted knights challenge and got a crazy crit).
Also, if these "pro GF's" are using tenebrous...then you can write them off too, as the nerf bat is already swinging on that one. If I had 5x greater tenebrous, then you are absolutely right...I could then kill most with 2 encounters.
Definitely, Tenebrous in a class which didn't get out of its way to gather 32-35k hp and had tons of Def was a bad design idea. At least now (post-Tene-nerf) people that want to go the damage way on GF may have to (*gasp*) spec for damage with ArPen and Crit enchants.
Anyway, the whole point of the post and some of the replies in the threads, is that if a class is given so many stuns, it would be wise not to attach and god-like damage into it. Personally I don't feel that GFs are overpowered, until I meet a credit-card one with Full Tene and Perfects killing me in Lunging+Bull rush. But they are not many, and not much you can do about them. Plus, I guess that it's the same for all classes that go for the cheesy builds (R10+Perfect Vorpal rogues and CWs can also be beasts etc).
P.S: I love the Pro word for people that pay the game, rather getting paid from it
* Notorious Dwarven Bear Cavalry Leader *
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I would argue that this list of "pro" GF's must be extremely short then. So short, that this whole conversation is a moot point. I play a 15.8k GS GF (Step Child), and regularly rock folks in PvP. If you are unable to do anything from 2x prone creating encounters, then you are simply a sub par PvP'er. My experience is not based on being on the receiving end, but rather the giving. And believe me, Step Child can hit just as hard as any of them. (From a combat log yesterday: [23:26] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lunging Strike deals 25891 (21701) Physical to Wolfgang.) <-- result of Threatening Rush, Knights Challenge and Perfect Bronzewood.
Those whom I prone 2 times and kill, usually simply don't move after the 2nd prone, because they just gave up....or they were not full HP to begin with (or I slotted knights challenge and got a crazy crit).
I'll try to post some logs from when I'll meet GCTRL's or ayroux's GFs in combat with my CW. Interestingly enough, ayroux also chose an inspired name for his GF lol. Being prone in a wall is one of the most annoying experiences in PvP. At nearly 24K HP (my CW, while decently geared, is PvE mostly, but trust me I'm not defenseless), I don't die in 2 shots unless debuffed etc. However... whatever keys I mash, Shift-WASD, double tap direction... it's always unable to move, you're just there CCed and that would be it.
Sure, this chain CC move is not always working flawlessly, but when it does, it's laughable.
I'm sure a CW that built especially for PvP with more HP and defenses and oppressor build will do better, but in the end, if the GF gets them on the wall, it's the same result from what I saw on PM vs PM matches.
At least a CW can always Icy Rays a GF and run the hell away to find something more squishy if they feel they're not prepared for the challenge
Edit: of course they most probably have tenes. I believe 90% of the "pro" tanky pvers (and not only, basically everybody but the DCs uses them these days) have tenes. If you're in a premade against some good team it would be foolish to assume their tanks don't have them. But again, this is more about being kept constantly prone in a wall, then the dps bursts. Sometimes I can even dodge an Impact Shot series and other CC abilities from various classes, but the GF has the best CC chaining, you just cannot get away if they know what they're doing.
@hidahayabusa: yeah I call them "pro", but what else can I say about these guys? It's not like their gear is everything, some dream, sleep, eat with PvP in mind. So they're not lacking skills that's for sure, because even with "pro" gear you can play dumb.
I would argue that this list of "pro" GF's must be extremely short then. So short, that this whole conversation is a moot point. I play a 15.8k GS GF (Step Child), and regularly rock folks in PvP. If you are unable to do anything from 2x prone creating encounters, then you are simply a sub par PvP'er. My experience is not based on being on the receiving end, but rather the giving. And believe me, Step Child can hit just as hard as any of them. (From a combat log yesterday: [23:26] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lunging Strike deals 25891 (21701) Physical to Wolfgang.) <-- result of Threatening Rush, Knights Challenge and Perfect Bronzewood.
Those whom I prone 2 times and kill, usually simply don't move after the 2nd prone, because they just gave up....or they were not full HP to begin with (or I slotted knights challenge and got a crazy crit).
Most likely they have NOT given up but are smashing the dodge button like crazy without result, that is latency at work.
I usually cannot break free from pronechain no matter how much I beat my keyboard, it just isn't possible.
As a GWF, i usually do not have much problems with GFs. Unless i meet a credit card one with full tank spec+ stacked tenes, or 2 GFs together. If they're not that good, you can just sprint behind them and takedown. If they are good, you can eat the first wave of ecnounters and then eat their guard with unstoppable+ sure strike. After that, they are done for usually.
It's harder against skilled ones. They lock you on, so it's hard to just sprint behind their guard, and they don't block your at-wills, which gives you the chance to notice it and takedown while their guard is down. A smart GF could keep the shield down for the first2-3 seconds of your unstoppable fury, and then start blocking suddenly to let you waste your takedown on their shield.
It's also possible to dodge their first charge, but need timing and luck for a GWF to sprint away at the right time. For the other classes, who have dodge/ teleport immunity, it may be easier. But they are also usually more squishy.
I know your point is in relation to PvP, but in PvE I have consistently seen certain GF that are either first or second in overall damage -- above TR, GWF, and CW. I don't know exactly why this is but it is always when runs are add heavy (which I would have thought would favor the GWF and CW but instead it is the GF that wins out). I mention this as I am curious as to what spec yields this result.
I play that GF in PVE, and it is a conquere spec GF that uses an Ioun stone to give him the Armor pen and crit needed to deal damage at the same level as a GWF. And also by using AoE Moves, GF's at wills, encounters and daily AOE's deal more damage than a GWF's. A GwF still has better At will Area, making there area damage more favorable in many add situation that are not arcane singularity bunched up. Aslo the GF at will cleave does not have diminsihing returns like all of the GWF powers just a much smaller area.
With Trample the fallen a GF deals even more damage to any target a CW or Two have under control.
It is not that GF's deal too much damage, TR's and CW's far exceed the damage they can do. A TR will still do at least 50% more single target than the best GF. CW's win in area. It's just that GWF is a pathetically underpowered class with the lowest damage at wills of all of the classes and lowest damage aoe encoutner and daily powers of all of the 5 classes. GWF's only deal good damage in long sustained fights with multiple mobs where they have a chacne to repeatedly spam at-wills and debuff the mobs defenses with crits. This is why you often see them do poor damage they have no burst damage powers and the better your group the harder it is for a GWF to shine the faster your team is killing mobs.
And since the GF can't bring an Ioun stone into PvP he cant do that kind of damage there and it is why TR's and CW can triple his damage in PvP
If GWFs are buffed so they can fulfill a role in a group either by tanking like a GF or dealing daamge on the same level as a CW. Then the GF will no longer shine so brightly compared to a GWF who is the 5th man out and soon to be 6th man out of all the classes of Neverwinter.
Oh and Even the best GF can't beat a good CW
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Comments
While we are at it I'd just like Impact Shots fixed.
Like GF prone chain impact shot chain is equally inescapable, you try to dodge and you rubberband back to receive more of those **** shots. Something is wrong here, propably latency/network code issue.
Cryptic needs to fix their latency issues or just add slight delay on how fast you can spam impact shots, I'd strongly prefer fixing the latency.
It can't be called rubberbanding if i guard first IS, that root and the second IS root me IN guard. The first is maybe really due latency, but the second is a bug.
Actually no. I've never complained about GWF's or TR's and think that no one needs to be nerfed. Those who are qq'ing need to think about how they're playing and start doing PvP as a team sport.
Nothing needs to be fixed about a GF. It's not like TR where you can't see them coming or a CW who can hit you from a distance and keep moving away. You see the GF coming, you and your team act accordingly.
It's fine. I can can still stun chain kill people without prones.
This. If you end up getting chain-proned, you had it coming.
Yeh because 90% of players play in premades so there team works as a group.
Lol keep defending, it was just the same for the other classes, learn to adapt now from being a 1 trick pony, because it will get fixed.
And to the clueless nab who keeps talking about 2 stealthed TR's, 2 of any class tends to kill a player you fool!
Also, if you are sub 60, and complaining in this thread...stop, just stop.
You probably never meet any pro GFs. If they get to you, daily or not, you're done for, stuck in some wall "Unable" to do anything, listening the sweet music of shields bashing your head again and again. Trick is to not let them get to you, but sometimes... yeah. Sometimes they're just pro enough.
The biggest mistakes I see people making when faced with an approaching GF are:
If you can't kill the GF, you're best standing him/her off until an ally comes to help. Wizards (with the correct encounters and timing) are good at this, very good. DC's are also very capable of it if tank spec. TR's I find have the most trouble vs GFs.
Depends. Most Rogues I've seen lately run around with a huge ArmPen score and even get to Perfect Terror. Of course there are those with Greater-Perfect Vorpal that can dagger you to death after depleting your shield with a Flurry. In general, as a GF I find hard to battle GWFs that know what they are doing (i.e. sprinting to my back) and high geared rogues. As you see, I mentioned the two classes that can kill you by running too much Deflect which is the bane of GF (at least tank DCs can be contained for your CWs to finish).
So to the OP, if you have trouble with GF's damage try a deflect build. If you can't then you are probably one of those guys that can dodge them indefinitely. Complaining about a huge random hit, when you are focused by 4 players...doesn't make any sense.
I would argue that this list of "pro" GF's must be extremely short then. So short, that this whole conversation is a moot point. I play a 15.8k GS GF (Step Child), and regularly rock folks in PvP. If you are unable to do anything from 2x prone creating encounters, then you are simply a sub par PvP'er. My experience is not based on being on the receiving end, but rather the giving. And believe me, Step Child can hit just as hard as any of them. (From a combat log yesterday: [23:26] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lunging Strike deals 25891 (21701) Physical to Wolfgang.) <-- result of Threatening Rush, Knights Challenge and Perfect Bronzewood.
Those whom I prone 2 times and kill, usually simply don't move after the 2nd prone, because they just gave up....or they were not full HP to begin with (or I slotted knights challenge and got a crazy crit).
Anyway, the whole point of the post and some of the replies in the threads, is that if a class is given so many stuns, it would be wise not to attach and god-like damage into it. Personally I don't feel that GFs are overpowered, until I meet a credit-card one with Full Tene and Perfects killing me in Lunging+Bull rush. But they are not many, and not much you can do about them. Plus, I guess that it's the same for all classes that go for the cheesy builds (R10+Perfect Vorpal rogues and CWs can also be beasts etc).
P.S: I love the Pro word for people that pay the game, rather getting paid from it
I'll try to post some logs from when I'll meet GCTRL's or ayroux's GFs in combat with my CW. Interestingly enough, ayroux also chose an inspired name for his GF lol. Being prone in a wall is one of the most annoying experiences in PvP. At nearly 24K HP (my CW, while decently geared, is PvE mostly, but trust me I'm not defenseless), I don't die in 2 shots unless debuffed etc. However... whatever keys I mash, Shift-WASD, double tap direction... it's always unable to move, you're just there CCed and that would be it.
Sure, this chain CC move is not always working flawlessly, but when it does, it's laughable.
I'm sure a CW that built especially for PvP with more HP and defenses and oppressor build will do better, but in the end, if the GF gets them on the wall, it's the same result from what I saw on PM vs PM matches.
At least a CW can always Icy Rays a GF and run the hell away to find something more squishy if they feel they're not prepared for the challenge
Edit: of course they most probably have tenes. I believe 90% of the "pro" tanky pvers (and not only, basically everybody but the DCs uses them these days) have tenes. If you're in a premade against some good team it would be foolish to assume their tanks don't have them. But again, this is more about being kept constantly prone in a wall, then the dps bursts. Sometimes I can even dodge an Impact Shot series and other CC abilities from various classes, but the GF has the best CC chaining, you just cannot get away if they know what they're doing.
@hidahayabusa: yeah I call them "pro", but what else can I say about these guys? It's not like their gear is everything, some dream, sleep, eat with PvP in mind. So they're not lacking skills that's for sure, because even with "pro" gear you can play dumb.
Most likely they have NOT given up but are smashing the dodge button like crazy without result, that is latency at work.
I usually cannot break free from pronechain no matter how much I beat my keyboard, it just isn't possible.
It's harder against skilled ones. They lock you on, so it's hard to just sprint behind their guard, and they don't block your at-wills, which gives you the chance to notice it and takedown while their guard is down. A smart GF could keep the shield down for the first2-3 seconds of your unstoppable fury, and then start blocking suddenly to let you waste your takedown on their shield.
It's also possible to dodge their first charge, but need timing and luck for a GWF to sprint away at the right time. For the other classes, who have dodge/ teleport immunity, it may be easier. But they are also usually more squishy.
I play that GF in PVE, and it is a conquere spec GF that uses an Ioun stone to give him the Armor pen and crit needed to deal damage at the same level as a GWF. And also by using AoE Moves, GF's at wills, encounters and daily AOE's deal more damage than a GWF's. A GwF still has better At will Area, making there area damage more favorable in many add situation that are not arcane singularity bunched up. Aslo the GF at will cleave does not have diminsihing returns like all of the GWF powers just a much smaller area.
With Trample the fallen a GF deals even more damage to any target a CW or Two have under control.
It is not that GF's deal too much damage, TR's and CW's far exceed the damage they can do. A TR will still do at least 50% more single target than the best GF. CW's win in area. It's just that GWF is a pathetically underpowered class with the lowest damage at wills of all of the classes and lowest damage aoe encoutner and daily powers of all of the 5 classes. GWF's only deal good damage in long sustained fights with multiple mobs where they have a chacne to repeatedly spam at-wills and debuff the mobs defenses with crits. This is why you often see them do poor damage they have no burst damage powers and the better your group the harder it is for a GWF to shine the faster your team is killing mobs.
And since the GF can't bring an Ioun stone into PvP he cant do that kind of damage there and it is why TR's and CW can triple his damage in PvP
If GWFs are buffed so they can fulfill a role in a group either by tanking like a GF or dealing daamge on the same level as a CW. Then the GF will no longer shine so brightly compared to a GWF who is the 5th man out and soon to be 6th man out of all the classes of Neverwinter.
Oh and Even the best GF can't beat a good CW
I can kill easly 17k GS GF with my 7,3 k GS (no wep.e no armor.e)CW 1 VS 1 .(10k GS difference)
You are realy have no experience in pvp .
If you don't want to learn from other player's dont go DPVP .
Play pwe.
I think he just trolled you all.