Yes, it's a strat thread in which you stated what a "something reachable group" was. I simply responded to your post. That's generally how forums work. How did I get to 18 mil? Well lets see:
G Vorp - 3.3 mil
Cat - 1 mil
Rank 8 darks * 9 (char and pet) 7.2 mil
Ancient wep/Off hand 1 mil
G soul - 4 mil
Rank 8 def * 2 - 400k
Runestones for pet rank 8 - 600k
Epic shirt/pants - 400k
I imagine you can quibble over costs but let's call it 15 mil for the sake of argument. But the cost isn't really the point. The point is very few in the game are geared like your average "something reachable group" is.
It's quite clear what is costy tho, if we assume we use rank 7 dark enchantments instead, we're saving 5.8 millions.
If we then add everything up (despite the cat being 200k cheaper, and some more stuff I might argue with.) we land at 15.8 millions.
If we then chose to not go G. Vorpal but a normal and settle with a almost as useful (for PvE)Normal Soulforged, we're down to 10 millions. So we can half the cost by sacrificing 12% crit severity, 1s immortality from Soulforged, and 315 ArP. Not to bad a trade I'd say.
Lets assume we go for ever "worse" gear, lets say, rank 6 enchantments, lesser enchantments.. That's another 13% Crit severity lost, and 1 more second of Soulforge's immortality, and another 315 ArP lost, we're at 4.1 millions, we're still using purple gemmed pants, we're having Ancient weapons, we have our cat, it has rank 8's. We're running a Lesser soulforged and a lesser vorpal, we "only" have rank 6's for ArP, but, our defense enchants are rank 8. All this for 4.1 million AD.
If the make or break for a group is 25% crit severity, 2 seconds immortality of soulforged, and 600 ArP, they might not be ready for CN. I run it successfully in a unenchanted T1 set for now, as I'm to cheap to get the enchantments when I know I have a fully enchanted MH set if needed.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
if by majority of players you mean everyone who has ever downloaded the game then no.
The majority of people who still play after hitting level 60? absolutely that's reachable. T2 set, a normal vorpal, and rank 7's is the baseline for any random CN pug. You aren't even decently geared until you pass this point.
and CN can be cleared with said baseline, via pugs, all day, every day.
edit: also, lesser soulforge is the best souforge so go ahead and drop that 4mil down to 100k.
Once again, I am simply responding to a post in which you said "Our group had players with vorpal (2), Gvorp (2) and Pvorp (1) with rank7-9s. This is something reachable for majority of players". I simply pointed out that the majority of the player base will never reach that level. I never stated that was required to full clear CN.
So please tell me what kind of players goes into CN farming that place. Also, did I clearly state what this "majority of players" means.
Majority of player that are ready for CN and Dracolich capable or Majority of player in NW? Clear enough?
if by majority of players you mean everyone who has ever downloaded the game then no.
The majority of people who still play after hitting level 60? absolutely that's reachable. T2 set, a normal vorpal, and rank 7's is the baseline for any random CN pug. You aren't even decently geared until you pass this point.
and CN can be cleared with said baseline, via pugs, all day, every day.
edit: also, lesser soulforge is the best souforge so go ahead and drop that 4mil down to 100k.
I am fine with CN being a really really tough dungeon, and it is. But if it is so tough that a group meeting the minimum entry requirements doesn't really have a chance of finishing it, then the minimum entry requirements ought to be raised.
Quite honestly the minimum entry requirements for most of the T2's ought to be in the 9k range, and CN ought to be 10k+.
I am fine with CN being a really really tough dungeon, and it is. But if it is so tough that a group meeting the minimum entry requirements doesn't really have a chance of finishing it, then the minimum entry requirements ought to be raised.
Quite honestly the minimum entry requirements for most of the T2's ought to be in the 9k range, and CN ought to be 10k+.
I fail to see what good such a raise would do, except locking out the elitists who want the ultimate challenge. I would prefer if they put a "Recomended GS: 10.5k" on CN instead, with the option to queue from 9.2k. The 9.2k requirement basically says "if you don't have 9.2k, you have no chance in the world, never, ever, ever to beat this dungeon. Go away, do you silly T2 farm instead." Instead of locking more people out, instead inform them of what they're facing by recommending a gearscore of maybe 10-11k somewhre, if people then wanna try it at 9.2k, let them.
I am fine with CN being a really really tough dungeon, and it is. But if it is so tough that a group meeting the minimum entry requirements doesn't really have a chance of finishing it, then the minimum entry requirements ought to be raised.
Quite honestly the minimum entry requirements for most of the T2's ought to be in the 9k range, and CN ought to be 10k+.
I feel like a lot have ppl have said this, but GS does not mean skill. People who buy their gear and have perfects and high rank enchants can enter CN, but it does not mean they will finish it. It is a matter of how people use their skills and the ability to dodge (which a lot of pugs lack >.<). When I do a t2 dungeon an alt, I don't have bias towards ppl with certain GS b/c we were all low GS at one point or another. It's just like I hope ppl won't judge me for having 7k GS on my fresh lvl 60 TR.
I fail to see what good such a raise would do, except locking out the elitists who want the ultimate challenge. I would prefer if they put a "Recomended GS: 10.5k" on CN instead, with the option to queue from 9.2k. The 9.2k requirement basically says "if you don't have 9.2k, you have no chance in the world, never, ever, ever to beat this dungeon. Go away, do you silly T2 farm instead." Instead of locking more people out, instead inform them of what they're facing by recommending a gearscore of maybe 10-11k somewhre, if people then wanna try it at 9.2k, let them.
GS requirement is just a requirement to get in. After that players needs to figure out what they lack in, in order to full clear. You dont even need to full clear CN and you can just ring farm or maybe call it at Xviros. Seriously, GS doesn't guarantee you that you can full clear.
if by majority of players you mean everyone who has ever downloaded the game then no.
The majority of people who still play after hitting level 60? absolutely that's reachable. T2 set, a normal vorpal, and rank 7's is the baseline for any random CN pug. You aren't even decently geared until you pass this point.
I never said it wasn't reachable. Obviously it's reachable as people have done it. Do the majority still playing after 60 have that gear? Not a chance. The guys playing since open beta sure or those spending hundreds/thousands sure.
And yes, CN can be cleared all day every day by exploiting it just like most things in the game. Which has nothing to do with what I said, so I don't get the point.
GS requirement is just a requirement to get in. After that players needs to figure out what they lack in, in order to full clear. You dont even need to full clear CN and you can just ring farm or maybe call it at Xviros. Seriously, GS doesn't guarantee you that you can full clear.
Yup, won't argue with that, all I did was pointing out how much I disliked the idea of raising the GS requirement for entering CN, and why. But a note saying some arbitrary amount of GS would be recommended to do CN would most likely not harm, hopefully people would then farm up to that arbitrary number learning their class and the mechanics of the game better in the process.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
CN can be done with a ~10k, rank 5-6, lesser/nothing group and done legit. Just takes ages(2-3hours). Done it on my CW. Draco(and too a lesser extent, the adds on the Beholder boss) are the only tough bits.
I fail to see what good such a raise would do, except locking out the elitists who want the ultimate challenge. I would prefer if they put a "Recomended GS: 10.5k" on CN instead, with the option to queue from 9.2k. The 9.2k requirement basically says "if you don't have 9.2k, you have no chance in the world, never, ever, ever to beat this dungeon. Go away, do you silly T2 farm instead." Instead of locking more people out, instead inform them of what they're facing by recommending a gearscore of maybe 10-11k somewhre, if people then wanna try it at 9.2k, let them.
Then why not let them try at a GS of 8.3k? Or 6k for that matter?
If the philosophy is going to be "let anyone in who wants a shot, even though 99% will fail", then take away the gear score requirement entirely. I'm okay with that, actually.
But if there is going to be a gear score requirement, then that says to me that those meeting the minimum requirements have a reasonable shot at success. Otherwise what is the point of a minimum requirement? Because it's not true that those with <9.2k GS *cannot* complete the dungeon, after all GS != talent, and I'm sure there is an exceptionally talented team of 5 players out there that can do Castle Never in all-blue gear. But that is going to be exceptionally rare.
If a *typical* 9.2k GS team has no real chance at success, then I guess I don't really see the point of having 9.2k GS as the requirement.
Then why not let them try at a GS of 8.3k? Or 6k for that matter?
If the philosophy is going to be "let anyone in who wants a shot, even though 99% will fail", then take away the gear score requirement entirely. I'm okay with that, actually.
But if there is going to be a gear score requirement, then that says to me that those meeting the minimum requirements have a reasonable shot at success. Otherwise what is the point of a minimum requirement? Because it's not true that those with <9.2k GS *cannot* complete the dungeon, after all GS != talent, and I'm sure there is an exceptionally talented team of 5 players out there that can do Castle Never in all-blue gear. But that is going to be exceptionally rare.
If a *typical* 9.2k GS team has no real chance at success, then I guess I don't really see the point of having 9.2k GS as the requirement.
Well, one reason for a requirement is to give people a fairly good view on what they will be facing, without having tried it, most people considering doing CN have tried a T2, and knows how difficult they are, if they then can see that CN has a GS requirement that is 900 higher, they see that it's a moderately big leap in difficulty.
And, tested in myself, you can reach 9.2k in full blue gear, with rank 4 enchants more or less now with Feywild released. So the requirement is quite low.
As I said, I'd prefer them adding a recommendation on what GS one should have to have a somewhat fair chance of finishing CN. And keeping the requirement to keep people in 50% greens and such out.
Well, one reason for a requirement is to give people a fairly good view on what they will be facing, without having tried it, most people considering doing CN have tried a T2, and knows how difficult they are, if they then can see that CN has a GS requirement that is 900 higher, they see that it's a moderately big leap in difficulty.
And, tested in myself, you can reach 9.2k in full blue gear, with rank 4 enchants more or less now with Feywild released. So the requirement is quite low.
As I said, I'd prefer them adding a recommendation on what GS one should have to have a somewhat fair chance of finishing CN. And keeping the requirement to keep people in 50% greens and such out.
So if the purpose of the 9.2k requirement is to just tell people that the dungeon is hard, then this could be achieved by merely stating WARNING: DUNGEON IS REALLY HARD but still letting in anyone in who wants to try.
Still not seeing the reason for a *requirement* of 9.2k. I'm in agreement with you that there ought to be something along the lines of "look, if you have a GS below X, your odds of success are pretty low".
So if the purpose of the 9.2k requirement is to just tell people that the dungeon is hard, then this could be achieved by merely stating WARNING: DUNGEON IS REALLY HARD but still letting in anyone in who wants to try.
Still not seeing the reason for a *requirement* of 9.2k. I'm in agreement with you that there ought to be something along the lines of "look, if you have a GS below X, your odds of success are pretty low".
True, they could actually remove the requirement, to take it even further, we don't actually need any recommendation in game, we could instead let the community form these guidelines based on what the player think is appropriate gear for it based on experience. I actually like this idea.
I play GWF focusing purely on the high end PvE element of Neverwinter gameplay and am fortunate enough to run with a group of equally focused PvE players, each of us having played since open beta for various teams before gathering under Looney Tunes Inc. when servers merged.
Placing modesty asides for a moment and purely to highlight that it is possible:
Following recent changes, going in with our strongest team (5 man) we were able to down Draco in our very first attempt in under 5 minutes with plenty of room for improvement.
This was achieved by compressing all adds into the middle onto draco and then all classes bringing some element of control and dps to the fight combined with good old fashioned dps and evade tactics plus voice comms (Ventrilo/Skype)
This was achieved by the same team that under (the now thankfully fixed high vizier stacks) annihilated Draco in 1 min 33 seconds and comprised 1x TR, 1x GWF, 2x CW, 1x DC
However since then we have gone in with a few different mixes including significantly less geared players pulling off the fight in various 5 man & 4 man combinations including 2x TRs, 2x CWs, 1x DC (5 man) ... 1x TR, 1x GWF, 1x CW, 1x DC (4 man) ... 1x GWF, 2x CW, 1x DC (4 man)
I am also convinced (as I have always been that any fight can be handled with the full mix of classes (1x TR, 1x GWF, 1x GF, 1x CW, 1x DC) provided all players are strong (gameplay & gear), know their classes well and understand their role within the fight.
I game on a modest laptop, but will speak to members of my team with stronger gaming machines to see if we can have one of the guys post up a recording of the fight including voice comms. This should hopefully give a better idea of what controls we are throwing down and the general strategy used. In General though (please note, roles can be mixed depending on what players are available):
The TR & GWF form the 'melee team' burning down draco and providing some control to the fight (TR running smoke bomb and GWF using either Avalanche of Steel or Slam mixed in with Crescendo to sustain dps on Draco)
2x CWs and 1x DC in the 'CC team' focusing on throwing all adds onto draco and keeping them there using a combination of singularity to gather the adds and oppressive force to control.
This seems the best answer seen so far (along with the video). A solid strategy and some clear points.
Going to try this these evening if I'm able to gather some decent geared guildes (my guild is basically starting over after most of the seasoned players left the game).
Thank you.
Edit.
Even if I still have some concerns about the wing buffet. It can hit pretty hard, its knockback is pretty strong and GF still can't block it so, maybe GFs are at loss here.
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pandapaulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 424Bounty Hunter
edited October 2013
Well I can confirm it can be done. Today I 3 runs during a DD... But the CWs I had in the party were exceptional
The party was 3 CWs 1 GWF and 1 DC and we killed Draco with ease... Not a single wipe in 3 runs
The CWs however need to be very good and know exactly what they are doing..
This change more than anything will hinder almost all "average" players from being capable of doing CN 4/4
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
Valiant is quite possibly the best geared gwf on the server. He was on dragon and i doubt anyone from mindflayer/beholder can touch him. What works for his team may not work on a guild trying to rebuild after all their experienced players left. Just a fair warning.
Valiant is quite possibly the best geared gwf on the server. He was on dragon and i doubt anyone from mindflayer/beholder can touch him. What works for his team may not work on a guild trying to rebuild after all their experienced players left. Just a fair warning.
You really think only people from Dragon had gear? Don't forget that getting BiS gear can be a matter of money, and rich people are everywhere... including on the other 2 former shards. Trust me, I've seen them.
^^ yes there is some there but it's a far outweighed by the synergy of CW and CW
Depends on the context, in CN, yes in most places due to billion CC-able adds spread out all over the place in boss encounters.
In other places, say MC or Dwarf King, a solo-manageable set of adds, especially with CC-immunity, and an equivalently or overgeared GWF outshines the synergy of a 2nd CW.
You really think only people from Dragon had gear? Don't forget that getting BiS gear can be a matter of money, and rich people are everywhere... including on the other 2 former shards. Trust me, I've seen them.
I think what he meant is, Valiant is the best PVE GWF in the server, skill-wise and gear-wise, every high end PVE player in dragon knows him.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I think what he meant is, Valiant is the best PVE GWF in the server, skill-wise and gear-wise, every high end PVE player in dragon knows him.
How did you appreciate he is THE BEST? Look, I don't say he's bad, good or amazing, I don't know him.
I only say that there are countless others you don't know, you never played with/against, so in conclusion you have no idea who is the best.
Even if there would have been a way for somebody to know and play with ALL GWFs on the game, there would still be no way to tell which one is best, it will all come down to personal opinion. I know for example some GWFs I think they're "best", but they're best just for me, cause I like them and I played with them.
Unless we're talking PvP which is quantifiable, or something like raiding realm/world firsts which again are quantifiable, we have no way to appreciate who the best players are - especially in a game when you can have all the best gear with all maxed enchants the second you reach 60... without working for it in the game at all.
from what i hear/gather, people are still bugging them by pushing over the gate. Havent been to CN for a while so i wouldnt know. but the AH prices seem to confirm it.
from what i hear/gather, people are still bugging them by pushing over the gate. Havent been to CN for a while so i wouldnt know. but the AH prices seem to confirm it.
Comments
If we then add everything up (despite the cat being 200k cheaper, and some more stuff I might argue with.) we land at 15.8 millions.
If we then chose to not go G. Vorpal but a normal and settle with a almost as useful (for PvE)Normal Soulforged, we're down to 10 millions. So we can half the cost by sacrificing 12% crit severity, 1s immortality from Soulforged, and 315 ArP. Not to bad a trade I'd say.
Lets assume we go for ever "worse" gear, lets say, rank 6 enchantments, lesser enchantments.. That's another 13% Crit severity lost, and 1 more second of Soulforge's immortality, and another 315 ArP lost, we're at 4.1 millions, we're still using purple gemmed pants, we're having Ancient weapons, we have our cat, it has rank 8's. We're running a Lesser soulforged and a lesser vorpal, we "only" have rank 6's for ArP, but, our defense enchants are rank 8. All this for 4.1 million AD.
If the make or break for a group is 25% crit severity, 2 seconds immortality of soulforged, and 600 ArP, they might not be ready for CN. I run it successfully in a unenchanted T1 set for now, as I'm to cheap to get the enchantments when I know I have a fully enchanted MH set if needed.
The majority of people who still play after hitting level 60? absolutely that's reachable. T2 set, a normal vorpal, and rank 7's is the baseline for any random CN pug. You aren't even decently geared until you pass this point.
and CN can be cleared with said baseline, via pugs, all day, every day.
edit: also, lesser soulforge is the best souforge so go ahead and drop that 4mil down to 100k.
So please tell me what kind of players goes into CN farming that place. Also, did I clearly state what this "majority of players" means.
Majority of player that are ready for CN and Dracolich capable or Majority of player in NW? Clear enough?
PvP GWF - BizzyBedBug
PvE GF (salvaged)
PvE TR (salvaged)
GWF PvP/CW PvE @ http://www.twitch.tv/bizzyplusplus/
^
He explained everything I needed to say.
PvP GWF - BizzyBedBug
PvE GF (salvaged)
PvE TR (salvaged)
GWF PvP/CW PvE @ http://www.twitch.tv/bizzyplusplus/
Quite honestly the minimum entry requirements for most of the T2's ought to be in the 9k range, and CN ought to be 10k+.
I feel like a lot have ppl have said this, but GS does not mean skill. People who buy their gear and have perfects and high rank enchants can enter CN, but it does not mean they will finish it. It is a matter of how people use their skills and the ability to dodge (which a lot of pugs lack >.<). When I do a t2 dungeon an alt, I don't have bias towards ppl with certain GS b/c we were all low GS at one point or another. It's just like I hope ppl won't judge me for having 7k GS on my fresh lvl 60 TR.
GS requirement is just a requirement to get in. After that players needs to figure out what they lack in, in order to full clear. You dont even need to full clear CN and you can just ring farm or maybe call it at Xviros. Seriously, GS doesn't guarantee you that you can full clear.
PvP GWF - BizzyBedBug
PvE GF (salvaged)
PvE TR (salvaged)
GWF PvP/CW PvE @ http://www.twitch.tv/bizzyplusplus/
I never said it wasn't reachable. Obviously it's reachable as people have done it. Do the majority still playing after 60 have that gear? Not a chance. The guys playing since open beta sure or those spending hundreds/thousands sure.
And yes, CN can be cleared all day every day by exploiting it just like most things in the game. Which has nothing to do with what I said, so I don't get the point.
Then why not let them try at a GS of 8.3k? Or 6k for that matter?
If the philosophy is going to be "let anyone in who wants a shot, even though 99% will fail", then take away the gear score requirement entirely. I'm okay with that, actually.
But if there is going to be a gear score requirement, then that says to me that those meeting the minimum requirements have a reasonable shot at success. Otherwise what is the point of a minimum requirement? Because it's not true that those with <9.2k GS *cannot* complete the dungeon, after all GS != talent, and I'm sure there is an exceptionally talented team of 5 players out there that can do Castle Never in all-blue gear. But that is going to be exceptionally rare.
If a *typical* 9.2k GS team has no real chance at success, then I guess I don't really see the point of having 9.2k GS as the requirement.
And, tested in myself, you can reach 9.2k in full blue gear, with rank 4 enchants more or less now with Feywild released. So the requirement is quite low.
As I said, I'd prefer them adding a recommendation on what GS one should have to have a somewhat fair chance of finishing CN. And keeping the requirement to keep people in 50% greens and such out.
So if the purpose of the 9.2k requirement is to just tell people that the dungeon is hard, then this could be achieved by merely stating WARNING: DUNGEON IS REALLY HARD but still letting in anyone in who wants to try.
Still not seeing the reason for a *requirement* of 9.2k. I'm in agreement with you that there ought to be something along the lines of "look, if you have a GS below X, your odds of success are pretty low".
This seems the best answer seen so far (along with the video). A solid strategy and some clear points.
Going to try this these evening if I'm able to gather some decent geared guildes (my guild is basically starting over after most of the seasoned players left the game).
Thank you.
Edit.
Even if I still have some concerns about the wing buffet. It can hit pretty hard, its knockback is pretty strong and GF still can't block it so, maybe GFs are at loss here.
The party was 3 CWs 1 GWF and 1 DC and we killed Draco with ease... Not a single wipe in 3 runs
The CWs however need to be very good and know exactly what they are doing..
This change more than anything will hinder almost all "average" players from being capable of doing CN 4/4
You really think only people from Dragon had gear? Don't forget that getting BiS gear can be a matter of money, and rich people are everywhere... including on the other 2 former shards. Trust me, I've seen them.
Depends on the context, in CN, yes in most places due to billion CC-able adds spread out all over the place in boss encounters.
In other places, say MC or Dwarf King, a solo-manageable set of adds, especially with CC-immunity, and an equivalently or overgeared GWF outshines the synergy of a 2nd CW.
I think what he meant is, Valiant is the best PVE GWF in the server, skill-wise and gear-wise, every high end PVE player in dragon knows him.
How did you appreciate he is THE BEST? Look, I don't say he's bad, good or amazing, I don't know him.
I only say that there are countless others you don't know, you never played with/against, so in conclusion you have no idea who is the best.
Even if there would have been a way for somebody to know and play with ALL GWFs on the game, there would still be no way to tell which one is best, it will all come down to personal opinion. I know for example some GWFs I think they're "best", but they're best just for me, cause I like them and I played with them.
Unless we're talking PvP which is quantifiable, or something like raiding realm/world firsts which again are quantifiable, we have no way to appreciate who the best players are - especially in a game when you can have all the best gear with all maxed enchants the second you reach 60... without working for it in the game at all.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
yup u are right