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The History of Fighters
lobo0084
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 663 Bounty Hunter
I'd like to do a little write-up on our Fighter classes in NWO, where they come from, and what they are originally intended to be.
I started all this by wondering what our paragon options would be for our GWF's in the near future, and decided to dig into the 3rd Edition and 4th Edition books of Dungeons and Dragons. I'm a very avid tabletop player, but to be honest, I don't remember specifics well (which is why I spent a fortune on all those books).
Since I started playing Neverwinter Online, I've had a hard time understanding why there isn't just a 'fighter' class. My eyes have since been opened. I found out that Cryptic has tried very hard to adapt the amazing mechanics of DnD 4e into an MMO environment, which hasn't been done half as well or as close by anyone before (here's looking at you, DDO). They gave up a lot of video game tropes and MMO 'accepted standards', and because of this, there's a lot of confusion by the playerbase on what's going on.
So here's a more detailed explanation from a gamer like yourself, and what I see has happened and is happening. I'll try to keep my beliefs on what's going to happen out of this.
Fighters
Fighters are the prime martial class of Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition. They are considered to be a defender role, meaning they have far more defenses than other classes and are capable of containing enemies. A defender is traditionally compared to a tank in modern MMO's, however the DnD defender does his best to avoid or ignore damage, because hit points are still limited and death is permanent.
They are also a Martial power. This essentially means that their skill and abilities generally come from lots of practice and training. Fighters have a penchant for heavy armor, large weapons, and even shields. By and large, their weapons have higher base damage than any other classes (which is true in NWO), and their abilities and powers provide a larger multiple (which is not true in NWO). Their ability to affect targets, either with damage or control, is often limited to burst area of effect (short range, about 5-10') or simply one or two targets.
Fighters have powers and abilities that have a lot of focus in not just damaging the enemy, but manipulating them. They are a control heavy class that likes to push, pull, knock prone, and debuff their enemies. This is another very large difference from how 'tank' classes are handled in most modern MMO's. Fighters aren't just damage dealers and takers, but are also very good at changing the battlefield in favor of the party, one or two enemies at a time. This is represented fairly well in NWO.
Since DnD is a turn-based game, Fighters are the kings of Attacks of Opportunity, meaning they often attack more times per encounter than other classes. As well, many of their attacks stack and allow more attacks to follow on the same or adjacent targets. This isn't represented well in NWO, due to both GWF and GF attack speed being so slow.
Finally, it's important to note that the Mark ability is crucial to a Fighter's repertoire. This combat challenge helps a fighter insure that his enemies are focused on him instead of his friends. While a marked target can attack others, it does so at great penalty to itself.
Sub-Classes
The fighter class has various sub-classes, which we see reflected most here in Neverwinter Online. These subclasses include two you know, Guardian Fighter and Great Weapon Fighter, as well as a few you may not have heard of, including Battlerager Fighter, Tempest Fighter and Brawler Fighter. Each sub-class actually has the same base stats and primary attributes, and draws from the same power and ability pool, so the difference is more in how they are outfitted and equipped.
Guardian Fighters are known by their shield and one-handed weapon, trading attack power for extra defense and the ability to better protect others in party. They are the peak of the defender doctrine.
Great Weapon Fighters are known by their large two handed weapons which have an extremely high base damage, which gives them more damage output at the expense of higher defenses. Due to the range of such large weapons, they can use their Fighter abilities to affect more targets in a larger area. They are better at fighting groups.
Battlerager Fighters are well known for their ability to charge into battle with high-damage, less-precise weapons such as axes and hammers. They go into a fury when they are hurt, giving them more ability to damage others. They are great for suppressing their opponents and causing havoc on the battlefield.
Tempest Fighters choose two one-handed weapons, usually a sword and dirk, and are very skilled at delivering good damage but also being able to parry and avoid taking hits. Considered the most mobile of the Fighter sub-classes, with the most and fastest attacks.
Brawling Fighters choose a one-handed weapon and leave one free. They are constantly grabbing and pulling or pushing opponents, and often use the environment against their enemy. Lots of situational attacks which make Brawling Fighters extremely dangerous at very close ranges.
Abilities and Powers
With the turn-based environment of DnD, each character had a limited amount of options to deploy during their turn, and thus much of the strategy was realizing what attacks would most benefit your party and sync with their movements. You quickly saw good groups working well to herd enemies and remove high-value targets and defend each other, and bad groups would die to the smallest goblins due to poor power choice. With relatively low HP totals, high damage attacks, and no respawn, this made DnD quests have more than a little excitement and thrill to them.
In NWO, the turn-based gameplay has been pushed aside for a more appealing and faster action-oriented fight. While this can lower some of the strategy, this does appeal to larger audiences and helps freshen the IP a bit, and fits much better in the MMO format we have.
Each character has a short list of basic attacks, at-will powers, encounter powers and daily powers which they can draw from. These include everything from the most simple sword swing to complex maneuvers involving multiple characters.
Basic attacks are generally a simple sword swing or punch. As you might notice, these have been completely removed in NWO, which means many of the later abilities which allow you to replace basic attacks have had to be adjusted.
At-Will powers were capable of being used during your turn, over and over again, with no limitation on the amount (besides the turn itself). They were generally small improvements on base attacks, and included such abilities for Fighters as Cleave, Reaping Strike, Sure Strike, and Tide of Iron. They weren't generally level-gated, meaning you could choose from all the at-wills at level 1. Generally, these were the go-to ability of your class, and were more damage/attack oriented. At-Wills in NWO are represented by our mouse clicks, and have no cooldown other than the animation to attack.
Encounter powers were able to be used once per encounter (an encounter being one battle, though more specific rules allowed it to be defined as a number of total turns). They include damage dealing attacks, but also a host of buffs and debuffs, control effects and movement capabilities, which you used to supplement your character and make them unique. We see the encounter limitation reflected in NWO with the cooldown timers, and many encounters try very hard to keep with those listed in the books.
Daily powers are a classes most powerful abilities, and can be used once per day (in-character day and rest cycle, not game day). They were not always attack oriented. In-fact, with fighters, most of our dailies were massive, short lived buffs or debuffs that gave us combat superiority on the battlefield. This has largely been abandoned in NWO for favor of making dailies into massive damage totals and incorporating them into the AP system. Dailies show the biggest change from the way they are represented in the books, to how they appear in the game, sometimes being completely unrecognizable.
Action Points
I'm a veteran paper-and-pencil player (yep, played before pens and printed character sheets were too common, and Elves where a class of their own), and I still have a hard time with action points. In DnD, they are a mechanic that allows you to 'fudge' the rolls of the game in your favor. Either they give you an extra attack, they help you on a dice roll, or they provide some form of gain in combination with one of your encounter or daily powers.
In NWO, on the other hand, they have become a point-pool that we gain in combat, and then expend on dailies. Because so many of the book dailies and class features generate or use AP, and thus had to be changed to work in NWO's system, it's easier to just understand that Action Points in Neverwinter don't have a thing to do with Action Points in DnD.
Class Features
Class Features in DnD were a type of 'standing rule of thumb' for your class and character. In this manner, NWO has kept fairly true to form. Once a class feature is chosen, it applies it's benefits and rules to all your actions. In DnD, this often dealt with the generation and/or use of AP, though it wasn't limited to it.
Some class features are the most powerful attributes of a class. If you read into them from the books, you'll realize that many of them NWO got very close and accurate with.
Paragon Paths
This is often misunderstood in NWO. Paragon paths in DnD are a higher-tiered option your character can choose to better specialize himself. They include three new class features and three powers, either two encounters and one daily or one encounter and two dailies. In NWO, this has been adjusted slightly to include three class features, one at-will, one encounter and one daily.
Paragon options worked best when they fit with your class and playstyle, but they couldn't change a fighter into a wizard. The changes they added weren't terribly drastic. They just provided a bit more customization.
Here's a short list of possible paragon paths available to fighters.
Special Abilities
NWO has a unique take on special abilities which gives it a different flavor than you'd expect to see in a DnD game. Namely for us Fighters, that's Block, Unstoppable, Sprint, and Mark.
In DnD, Block is a standard action which any character can use. But in NWO, Block is a unique special ability geared specifically for Guardian Fighters, giving them much higher damage resistance and defenses. This fits with many of the mechanics common in video games, since ultra-high HP totals allow 'tank' classes to absorb damage, unlike what's possible in DnD. Block is that attributed ability that NWO uses to tie the video gamer to DnD.
Unstoppable, on the other hand, is simply an encounter power that Fighters' can choose in DnD. It lets you gain temporary hit points, so is essentially nothing more than a small self-heal that wears off. NWO has revamped this ability, too, so that it's far more akin to a berserker ability common in video games. However, the NWO Unstoppable doesn't come close to anything else in DnD, even in the Barbarian class.
Sprint. Another ability any character can do in DnD, but in NWO, is limited to GWF's. It gives us a bit of speed, and ties some Fighter encounter abilities with it by preventing us from being slowed or immobilized.
Mark is interesting. In DnD, it is for all Fighters, and is one of the classic trademarks for the class. But in NWO, its an easy tab ability for GF's, and a 'and then some' ability for GWF's. Mark gives Fighters much of their capability to dominate and control opponents.
Feats
Feats in DnD were an assortment of 'permanent' buffs to your character, either on a general level, or on a class or racial basis. They did a wide assortment of boons, like making halflings more stealthy, giving you better precision with your sword, or making your constitution score mean more. In many ways, feats in NWO are very close to their design. A character in DnD could usually choose a new feat every two or three levels, but unlike NWO, they weren't leveled by individual power (3/3, 5/5, 1/1).
In DnD, feats were broken down into heroic (level 10 and under) and paragon (level 11 and over) tiers, which NWO reflects. Unlike NWO, they were not then broken further into paragon tier paths. Some, however, did require you to take other feats first before as a prerequisite.
All in all, the feat system allowed for a general pool of modifiers that allowed you to pick and choose how you would further customize your character. You could make your GWF better with his greatsword, or better with platemail armor, or open up the ability to sneak to him (however much that would often fail to work).
On the other hand, it was really a pool of features which NWO doesn't reflect, and you can see possibly misguided approach to narrow character development a little with the Paragon Tier Paths and the gated feature choice approach.
Synopsis and TL;DR
Learned anything you didn't know yet? I hope so. But for you TL;DR types, let me cover some of the bases in short form.
- GWF's are Fighters, not Barbarians. The two handed weapon is pretty much all they have in common. Barbarians are strikers, or focused damage dealers, and GWF's are defenders.
- Unstoppable isn't rage, or fury, or any other mechanic in DnD. In fact, in DnD, it's just a self heal.
- GWF's and GF's are both Defenders. They are both primarily built to attract damage and invite attacks.
- NWO is not like most MMO's. They are basing most of their rules on one of the oldest game systems in the world, Dungeons and Dragons. A game system most every MMO and RPG in the world copied in some shape or form. NWO is just making a closer copy than anyone else.
- Paragon paths aren't new classes. They don't change you from a defender to a striker. They just give you some unique abilities to make you even more different from other GF's or GWF's.
- GF's and GWF's are supposed to do more than just take damage or do damage. Fighters in DnD have a lot of utility and control ability, and have more, stronger control options for fewer targets.
- GF's and GWF's are melee in DnD. They do more damage to fewer targets than other classes.
- GWF's are a limited AOE class. 5'-10' range, no more.
I started all this by wondering what our paragon options would be for our GWF's in the near future, and decided to dig into the 3rd Edition and 4th Edition books of Dungeons and Dragons. I'm a very avid tabletop player, but to be honest, I don't remember specifics well (which is why I spent a fortune on all those books).
Since I started playing Neverwinter Online, I've had a hard time understanding why there isn't just a 'fighter' class. My eyes have since been opened. I found out that Cryptic has tried very hard to adapt the amazing mechanics of DnD 4e into an MMO environment, which hasn't been done half as well or as close by anyone before (here's looking at you, DDO). They gave up a lot of video game tropes and MMO 'accepted standards', and because of this, there's a lot of confusion by the playerbase on what's going on.
So here's a more detailed explanation from a gamer like yourself, and what I see has happened and is happening. I'll try to keep my beliefs on what's going to happen out of this.
Fighters
Fighters are the prime martial class of Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition. They are considered to be a defender role, meaning they have far more defenses than other classes and are capable of containing enemies. A defender is traditionally compared to a tank in modern MMO's, however the DnD defender does his best to avoid or ignore damage, because hit points are still limited and death is permanent.
They are also a Martial power. This essentially means that their skill and abilities generally come from lots of practice and training. Fighters have a penchant for heavy armor, large weapons, and even shields. By and large, their weapons have higher base damage than any other classes (which is true in NWO), and their abilities and powers provide a larger multiple (which is not true in NWO). Their ability to affect targets, either with damage or control, is often limited to burst area of effect (short range, about 5-10') or simply one or two targets.
Fighters have powers and abilities that have a lot of focus in not just damaging the enemy, but manipulating them. They are a control heavy class that likes to push, pull, knock prone, and debuff their enemies. This is another very large difference from how 'tank' classes are handled in most modern MMO's. Fighters aren't just damage dealers and takers, but are also very good at changing the battlefield in favor of the party, one or two enemies at a time. This is represented fairly well in NWO.
Since DnD is a turn-based game, Fighters are the kings of Attacks of Opportunity, meaning they often attack more times per encounter than other classes. As well, many of their attacks stack and allow more attacks to follow on the same or adjacent targets. This isn't represented well in NWO, due to both GWF and GF attack speed being so slow.
Finally, it's important to note that the Mark ability is crucial to a Fighter's repertoire. This combat challenge helps a fighter insure that his enemies are focused on him instead of his friends. While a marked target can attack others, it does so at great penalty to itself.
Sub-Classes
The fighter class has various sub-classes, which we see reflected most here in Neverwinter Online. These subclasses include two you know, Guardian Fighter and Great Weapon Fighter, as well as a few you may not have heard of, including Battlerager Fighter, Tempest Fighter and Brawler Fighter. Each sub-class actually has the same base stats and primary attributes, and draws from the same power and ability pool, so the difference is more in how they are outfitted and equipped.
Guardian Fighters are known by their shield and one-handed weapon, trading attack power for extra defense and the ability to better protect others in party. They are the peak of the defender doctrine.
Great Weapon Fighters are known by their large two handed weapons which have an extremely high base damage, which gives them more damage output at the expense of higher defenses. Due to the range of such large weapons, they can use their Fighter abilities to affect more targets in a larger area. They are better at fighting groups.
Battlerager Fighters are well known for their ability to charge into battle with high-damage, less-precise weapons such as axes and hammers. They go into a fury when they are hurt, giving them more ability to damage others. They are great for suppressing their opponents and causing havoc on the battlefield.
Tempest Fighters choose two one-handed weapons, usually a sword and dirk, and are very skilled at delivering good damage but also being able to parry and avoid taking hits. Considered the most mobile of the Fighter sub-classes, with the most and fastest attacks.
Brawling Fighters choose a one-handed weapon and leave one free. They are constantly grabbing and pulling or pushing opponents, and often use the environment against their enemy. Lots of situational attacks which make Brawling Fighters extremely dangerous at very close ranges.
Abilities and Powers
With the turn-based environment of DnD, each character had a limited amount of options to deploy during their turn, and thus much of the strategy was realizing what attacks would most benefit your party and sync with their movements. You quickly saw good groups working well to herd enemies and remove high-value targets and defend each other, and bad groups would die to the smallest goblins due to poor power choice. With relatively low HP totals, high damage attacks, and no respawn, this made DnD quests have more than a little excitement and thrill to them.
In NWO, the turn-based gameplay has been pushed aside for a more appealing and faster action-oriented fight. While this can lower some of the strategy, this does appeal to larger audiences and helps freshen the IP a bit, and fits much better in the MMO format we have.
Each character has a short list of basic attacks, at-will powers, encounter powers and daily powers which they can draw from. These include everything from the most simple sword swing to complex maneuvers involving multiple characters.
Basic attacks are generally a simple sword swing or punch. As you might notice, these have been completely removed in NWO, which means many of the later abilities which allow you to replace basic attacks have had to be adjusted.
At-Will powers were capable of being used during your turn, over and over again, with no limitation on the amount (besides the turn itself). They were generally small improvements on base attacks, and included such abilities for Fighters as Cleave, Reaping Strike, Sure Strike, and Tide of Iron. They weren't generally level-gated, meaning you could choose from all the at-wills at level 1. Generally, these were the go-to ability of your class, and were more damage/attack oriented. At-Wills in NWO are represented by our mouse clicks, and have no cooldown other than the animation to attack.
Encounter powers were able to be used once per encounter (an encounter being one battle, though more specific rules allowed it to be defined as a number of total turns). They include damage dealing attacks, but also a host of buffs and debuffs, control effects and movement capabilities, which you used to supplement your character and make them unique. We see the encounter limitation reflected in NWO with the cooldown timers, and many encounters try very hard to keep with those listed in the books.
Daily powers are a classes most powerful abilities, and can be used once per day (in-character day and rest cycle, not game day). They were not always attack oriented. In-fact, with fighters, most of our dailies were massive, short lived buffs or debuffs that gave us combat superiority on the battlefield. This has largely been abandoned in NWO for favor of making dailies into massive damage totals and incorporating them into the AP system. Dailies show the biggest change from the way they are represented in the books, to how they appear in the game, sometimes being completely unrecognizable.
Action Points
I'm a veteran paper-and-pencil player (yep, played before pens and printed character sheets were too common, and Elves where a class of their own), and I still have a hard time with action points. In DnD, they are a mechanic that allows you to 'fudge' the rolls of the game in your favor. Either they give you an extra attack, they help you on a dice roll, or they provide some form of gain in combination with one of your encounter or daily powers.
In NWO, on the other hand, they have become a point-pool that we gain in combat, and then expend on dailies. Because so many of the book dailies and class features generate or use AP, and thus had to be changed to work in NWO's system, it's easier to just understand that Action Points in Neverwinter don't have a thing to do with Action Points in DnD.
Class Features
Class Features in DnD were a type of 'standing rule of thumb' for your class and character. In this manner, NWO has kept fairly true to form. Once a class feature is chosen, it applies it's benefits and rules to all your actions. In DnD, this often dealt with the generation and/or use of AP, though it wasn't limited to it.
Some class features are the most powerful attributes of a class. If you read into them from the books, you'll realize that many of them NWO got very close and accurate with.
Paragon Paths
This is often misunderstood in NWO. Paragon paths in DnD are a higher-tiered option your character can choose to better specialize himself. They include three new class features and three powers, either two encounters and one daily or one encounter and two dailies. In NWO, this has been adjusted slightly to include three class features, one at-will, one encounter and one daily.
Paragon options worked best when they fit with your class and playstyle, but they couldn't change a fighter into a wizard. The changes they added weren't terribly drastic. They just provided a bit more customization.
Here's a short list of possible paragon paths available to fighters.
Special Abilities
NWO has a unique take on special abilities which gives it a different flavor than you'd expect to see in a DnD game. Namely for us Fighters, that's Block, Unstoppable, Sprint, and Mark.
In DnD, Block is a standard action which any character can use. But in NWO, Block is a unique special ability geared specifically for Guardian Fighters, giving them much higher damage resistance and defenses. This fits with many of the mechanics common in video games, since ultra-high HP totals allow 'tank' classes to absorb damage, unlike what's possible in DnD. Block is that attributed ability that NWO uses to tie the video gamer to DnD.
Unstoppable, on the other hand, is simply an encounter power that Fighters' can choose in DnD. It lets you gain temporary hit points, so is essentially nothing more than a small self-heal that wears off. NWO has revamped this ability, too, so that it's far more akin to a berserker ability common in video games. However, the NWO Unstoppable doesn't come close to anything else in DnD, even in the Barbarian class.
Sprint. Another ability any character can do in DnD, but in NWO, is limited to GWF's. It gives us a bit of speed, and ties some Fighter encounter abilities with it by preventing us from being slowed or immobilized.
Mark is interesting. In DnD, it is for all Fighters, and is one of the classic trademarks for the class. But in NWO, its an easy tab ability for GF's, and a 'and then some' ability for GWF's. Mark gives Fighters much of their capability to dominate and control opponents.
Feats
Feats in DnD were an assortment of 'permanent' buffs to your character, either on a general level, or on a class or racial basis. They did a wide assortment of boons, like making halflings more stealthy, giving you better precision with your sword, or making your constitution score mean more. In many ways, feats in NWO are very close to their design. A character in DnD could usually choose a new feat every two or three levels, but unlike NWO, they weren't leveled by individual power (3/3, 5/5, 1/1).
In DnD, feats were broken down into heroic (level 10 and under) and paragon (level 11 and over) tiers, which NWO reflects. Unlike NWO, they were not then broken further into paragon tier paths. Some, however, did require you to take other feats first before as a prerequisite.
All in all, the feat system allowed for a general pool of modifiers that allowed you to pick and choose how you would further customize your character. You could make your GWF better with his greatsword, or better with platemail armor, or open up the ability to sneak to him (however much that would often fail to work).
On the other hand, it was really a pool of features which NWO doesn't reflect, and you can see possibly misguided approach to narrow character development a little with the Paragon Tier Paths and the gated feature choice approach.
Synopsis and TL;DR
Learned anything you didn't know yet? I hope so. But for you TL;DR types, let me cover some of the bases in short form.
- GWF's are Fighters, not Barbarians. The two handed weapon is pretty much all they have in common. Barbarians are strikers, or focused damage dealers, and GWF's are defenders.
- Unstoppable isn't rage, or fury, or any other mechanic in DnD. In fact, in DnD, it's just a self heal.
- GWF's and GF's are both Defenders. They are both primarily built to attract damage and invite attacks.
- NWO is not like most MMO's. They are basing most of their rules on one of the oldest game systems in the world, Dungeons and Dragons. A game system most every MMO and RPG in the world copied in some shape or form. NWO is just making a closer copy than anyone else.
- Paragon paths aren't new classes. They don't change you from a defender to a striker. They just give you some unique abilities to make you even more different from other GF's or GWF's.
- GF's and GWF's are supposed to do more than just take damage or do damage. Fighters in DnD have a lot of utility and control ability, and have more, stronger control options for fewer targets.
- GF's and GWF's are melee in DnD. They do more damage to fewer targets than other classes.
- GWF's are a limited AOE class. 5'-10' range, no more.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Post edited by lobo0084 on
0
Comments
In short, we the players are trying to use the destroyer talent tree to turn GWF's from defenders into strikers, when our role should be far more cut and dry. I'll look into the features for more information, and then get a write up done later.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
In doing this research, I realized that character sub-classes were a solid, pre-tested design. GWF's and GF's both have a role, one they share interdependently. The powers are as close as possible on many occasions, with the exception of dailies and the AP system, and I no longer have any problems understanding why there were so many utility and control abilities in the powers lists of both classes. Even the relation between GWF and Barbarian now makes sense.
But then you get to feats. The heroic feats are great and a simple, thought out design. They very closely represent what has been created by Wizards of the Coast. It's the Paragon Tier Paths, not the tier itself, that starts the break. By segmenting player choice along the Paths, they are creating classes within classes, and limiting flexibility in the process. Every class discussion I've had reveals one Path that is viable in one instance, such as PvP, and another that is viable in PvE. When the Paragon tier feats should be an expansion on the heroic tier feats.
This is more fuel for another, later, post.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
I'd second this thread based on I believe it shows much more clearly the view of the Devs on GWFs, highly recommend reading and absorbing this everyone!
Much appreciated, Kolat.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Ps.
I am always enjoying your posts in the Barracks, standing up for the fact that GWF isn't useless! I hope to see more great posts from you and kolatmaster. You two are the GWF community heroes to me!
Thank you very much. Our class could use some quality of life adjustments, for sure. But the class is a very viable option for any player, without a doubt.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters