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End game GWF vs TRs possible strategies
pando83
Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
Here we go: i already discussed in the barracks what counters can be adopted against a TR in lvl 60 PvP. Unfortunately, i didn't get much from it. Now, i'll try to talk it out to a wider audience to see if someone can find an answer.
And yes, i did my research and had my fair amount of PvP, and i'm posting cause my research so far looks at a dead end. No, not everyone has the time to roll a second/ third/ fourth character to 60 to test how each class works.
Yet, for any other class i could easily figure out the counters.
GF: just try and use sprint to outmanouver them, get to their back and takedown. You will be chain proned sometimes, but still it's possible to fight them out unless they have tenes stacked.
CWs: eat their cc, use small sprint bursts, get to them, fake an attack, make them waste their 3 teleports, then get them
DC: just hit a lot. With SoTS try to lower their defense, takedown and keep the pressure to outdamage their healing. Avoid the red circle of chains (don't know the name)
GWF: slow encounter animations. Just dodge, or eat the damage and then respond. When they go unstoppable just put some distance between you and them, They don't have ranged attack, so you just make them waste unstoppable.
If they are full defense sentinels, taking them down may require time and some critical luck to outdo their monster regeneration.
And then we get to the TRs. Since my issue is with their defensive capabilities, i'm not going to discuss their DPS. They attack from stealth, and sprint does not have immunity, so they'll catch you even if you sprint right before they hit. Eat the damage, that's all. After all, GWFs are about eating damage. Our Unstoppable itself charges with damage taken.
So, after you get hit, you have to catch them. It's your turn, right? Wrong. Many TRs go ITC right before their wave of Attacks. So you can't cc them when they become visible. You can't run away either while they're ITC: they can range attack, so it's unuseful. Then they roll away. Can't catch them since dodge roll has immunity to damage and cc. They can do it 3 times, so it should work very much like CWs teleports: try to make them waste the dodge rolls. But. After the dodge roll, they can go stealth (seen them doing so). And then they'll start throwing knives from stealth. So, right now you're getting hit from a distance, by something invisible. Here you've to find them, but right now you've already at 50% health or less. And now they may very well be able to dodge roll again, or go ITC again, come with CDs over, monster damage and finish you off. This is the strategy i see 90% of the time in PvP when facing geared and experienced TRs.
Suggestions so far:
Try to understand where the knives come from and use roar
Go sentinel and tank
Try to guess where they are and catch them
I found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWkvrCu8xJ0
At 24:34, we've what can be a 1v1 situation. Sentinel vs TR. GWF is from Lemonade Stand, so i guess he's not a **** and he did his researches. Still can't find a counter to the TR combination of stealth, ITC, ranged attack and high DPS. On the other hand, the TR just have to keep the distance. Luck? No. He has all the powers and skills to do so. After the 1v1 he gets killed, but it's 2v1 and there's another TR. So, from the video above i got the impression that the above strategies would not work. Going sentinel and trying to figure out just did not save the GWF in the video.
So the question is: is there a counter we can't see, or GWF vs TR is just a bad matchup? May be the balance must be seen as 5v5 balance instead of 1v1 encounters?
Possible strategy i could think about:
slot briartwine to reveal the TR attacking from stealth, and slot Roar to knick him from distance once you detect him.
Could this work? Anything to add to what i wrote?
PS: to the ones who will rage cause they see a nerf request in this, just try and give some suggestions instead of complaining. Forums are made to discuss, if you answer to every post with a "L2P" or " try to find out yourself" then the forums where we should discuss this kind of stuff, become unuseful.
And yes, i did my research and had my fair amount of PvP, and i'm posting cause my research so far looks at a dead end. No, not everyone has the time to roll a second/ third/ fourth character to 60 to test how each class works.
Yet, for any other class i could easily figure out the counters.
GF: just try and use sprint to outmanouver them, get to their back and takedown. You will be chain proned sometimes, but still it's possible to fight them out unless they have tenes stacked.
CWs: eat their cc, use small sprint bursts, get to them, fake an attack, make them waste their 3 teleports, then get them
DC: just hit a lot. With SoTS try to lower their defense, takedown and keep the pressure to outdamage their healing. Avoid the red circle of chains (don't know the name)
GWF: slow encounter animations. Just dodge, or eat the damage and then respond. When they go unstoppable just put some distance between you and them, They don't have ranged attack, so you just make them waste unstoppable.
If they are full defense sentinels, taking them down may require time and some critical luck to outdo their monster regeneration.
And then we get to the TRs. Since my issue is with their defensive capabilities, i'm not going to discuss their DPS. They attack from stealth, and sprint does not have immunity, so they'll catch you even if you sprint right before they hit. Eat the damage, that's all. After all, GWFs are about eating damage. Our Unstoppable itself charges with damage taken.
So, after you get hit, you have to catch them. It's your turn, right? Wrong. Many TRs go ITC right before their wave of Attacks. So you can't cc them when they become visible. You can't run away either while they're ITC: they can range attack, so it's unuseful. Then they roll away. Can't catch them since dodge roll has immunity to damage and cc. They can do it 3 times, so it should work very much like CWs teleports: try to make them waste the dodge rolls. But. After the dodge roll, they can go stealth (seen them doing so). And then they'll start throwing knives from stealth. So, right now you're getting hit from a distance, by something invisible. Here you've to find them, but right now you've already at 50% health or less. And now they may very well be able to dodge roll again, or go ITC again, come with CDs over, monster damage and finish you off. This is the strategy i see 90% of the time in PvP when facing geared and experienced TRs.
Suggestions so far:
Try to understand where the knives come from and use roar
Go sentinel and tank
Try to guess where they are and catch them
I found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWkvrCu8xJ0
At 24:34, we've what can be a 1v1 situation. Sentinel vs TR. GWF is from Lemonade Stand, so i guess he's not a **** and he did his researches. Still can't find a counter to the TR combination of stealth, ITC, ranged attack and high DPS. On the other hand, the TR just have to keep the distance. Luck? No. He has all the powers and skills to do so. After the 1v1 he gets killed, but it's 2v1 and there's another TR. So, from the video above i got the impression that the above strategies would not work. Going sentinel and trying to figure out just did not save the GWF in the video.
So the question is: is there a counter we can't see, or GWF vs TR is just a bad matchup? May be the balance must be seen as 5v5 balance instead of 1v1 encounters?
Possible strategy i could think about:
slot briartwine to reveal the TR attacking from stealth, and slot Roar to knick him from distance once you detect him.
Could this work? Anything to add to what i wrote?
PS: to the ones who will rage cause they see a nerf request in this, just try and give some suggestions instead of complaining. Forums are made to discuss, if you answer to every post with a "L2P" or " try to find out yourself" then the forums where we should discuss this kind of stuff, become unuseful.
Post edited by pando83 on
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They're usually at about 30~40% hp by then and at somewhat of a distance away from me, I use sprint to run up to them then knock them down with Takedown followed by an instant Flourish and as soon as they're standing I use either Crescendo and finish them off or watch them flee.
It doesn't always work but so far it's the only way that I've been able to get any TR down myself, granted I'm no PvP genius nor do I have great gear yet.
In a 1v1 scenario, I would try to fish out their ItC by chasing them around and spamming Sure Strike. If they blow ItC up, then you can go Unstoppable and continue chasing. If they don't you need to stick to them (trying to catch them) because you force them to either run away or get a minor distance of Impact Shot/Cloud of Steel to be cast. If you go in the defensive, you are playing their game. If you go on the offensive they need to find a clearance in order to hit you.
In a nutshell, it's not an easy fight but their damage is definitely tank-able (provided you go Sentinel) and if you manage to isolate them in melee distance it's favorable for you. I agree that they do have all the cool toys, but GWFs certainly give them a run for their money.
P.S: Plaguefire Enchantment, and critical bleeds also help due to their prolonged ticking stopping them from regenerating Stealth.
look at it this way: the tr has all the tools to lead the fight: stealth, range, rolls, ItC, they -will- be able to dictate the pace of the match and win if you let them but if they make a mistake a gwf has the potential to kill them really fast or force them to run and kill them on the chase. to win you have to make them make a mistake so keep the pressure up at all times, force them to play perfect or die. and trust me gwf are one of the hardest classes for a tr to deal with.
there's another thing to it however: most tr are very predictable once they stealth and if you can learn to predict where they will be after stealthing you can nullify their biggest advantage. personally if i 1v1 other rogues i can often get a kill just after they stealth and they start throwing dumb knives at you thinking they are safe the problem is that it's hard to learn how tr act in stealth whitout having played one or... seeing them xD
you might want to take a look at pvp videos from tr perspective to eventually get an idea of where can they be right after they stealth but it's really not that bad after you get the hang of it, i had gwf takedown me while in stealth many times and it generally results in a trip to the campfire.
@hida: i Always try to pressure them. It's true they have 1st action, can keep distance and have 5 secs of ITC. But they also have stealth and ranged attack while in stealth mode. After their initial encounter wave+ ITC, they usually dodge roll/ impact shot and go stealth. Then you start to see the red numbers Flying above your head cause they're throwing knives from somewhere. So you need to find them. At this point, you don't have hit them yet (they were ITC), so not even bleeding can help i guess.
It's a multi-layered defense, formed by a chain of ITC/dodge roll/stealth/ranged attack/dodge roll/ ITC/dodge roll/stealth.
The moment they're supposed to be vulnerable is when they have ran out of their 3 dodge rolls, like for CWs teleport. But they still have stealth and can range attack from stealth at that point. So the only way i see to get them is to find a way to detect them in this period of time, when they have CDs active on all encounters.
Briartwine could break this chain by making their stealth ranged Attacks a double edged blade. Still, they could just go stealth, disengage and wait for the CDs to run out, then come back and attack from stealth with their wave of high DPS encounters.
Briartwine + your strategy about keeping pressure on them could be viable. Once i get a briartwine enchant, i'll try to test this.
Without briartwine... the TR would pop out of stealth with ITC up and unleash the DPS, then dodge roll and disengage, go stealth and range attack from stealth. I'll run after him but the 3 dodge rolls usually outdo the GWF sprint. I'll try and test BTW.
Thanks for the help! More suggestions and strategies are welcome.
I will also echo Adozu's point about running the TR yourself. I played one, got into PvP and experienced everything from its perspective. GWFs are the people you want to face last if you are a TR. If some GWF pressured me constantly, a simple mistake can lead to a takedown and then it's back to the campfire or constant running away.
Seeing the fight from the rogues p.o.v will also help you to spot them when stealthed since you can predict their movements. Remember also to use Ctrl key to lock in the target, it will help you a lot if he goes stealth
Yeah i already guessed the damage wouldn't be much. just thought about it's utility as a stealth revealer. But may be going for a defensive enchant and use the above strategies would be better. Thanks everyone for posting!
i dont use flourish at pvp bec it is so predictable and slow but if it hits it will deal high damage
takedown, punishing charge, indomitable battle strike (daily crescendo and savage advanced)
1 dodge = 1 punishing charge
just practice charge takedown combo and you wont have problem knocking any class down
I agree. I got a match against a team with 2 Lemonade Stand TRs. Couldn't fight them. Managed to kill one, but their damage was insane. On the other hand, i stumbled on a GWF from the same guild: 33k hp, 1.8k regeneration and 3.6k defense exc....uber tank. Damage sucked, but... he got like 6 or more GTene stacked. Like a brick wall that can spike damage you for a LOT.
It's the tenebrous enchant. Also, even if people says that you just need to slot tenes yourself to counter them, tank classes and builds just get so much more benefit from them that it can't be considered the same thing. Plus, it just can't be that in PvP you HAVE to stack tenebrous or you get trashed by such players. Would mean that end game PvP is all about stacking tenebrous enchants.
It's easy to see when a TR has ITC up.
I suppose the question should be are we talking a 1v1 fight or in a group fight where you're trying to single out the TR?
I play a GF more now, but when I did play my TR I always went for the back line. CW's and DC's were my primary target.
To the OP. It looks like you've done plenty of research and unfortunately it may boil down to gear. I say this not to be insulting by any means. My TR has a gear score of 9.4k with a lesser vorpal. I've played my buddies TR who has a perfect vorpal. The damage output between his TR and mine is night and day.
If they appear from stealth, then ITC, never ever throw your encounters at them. Stealth>Burst dmg>ITC>Roll away then just follow them, remember where the TR is facing before stealth, he would most likely go to the direction where the direction of his head is before stealth. So far most of the GWF who knows this technique, they have a decent chance to hunt the TR down. If you failed to do this, let your tanky GWF endure the tickling 8 daggers. If the TR spends all 8 in that stealth, he would most likely appear after spending too much time on that 8 daggers. If they appear, sprint right away just use normal attack if you think they have enough stamina to dodge, by damaging them their stealth meter depletes. Nearly impossible to use stealth if you keep on attacking them with your At-will, so always sprint right away where his roll is going, if his stamina runs out then go for the CC(Considering that your GWF can kill him once he's CC'd), if he uses ITC(which would recquire a very high recovery to use it again just after a few secs) then tank it with your Unstoppable and just keep on using At-will for he'll never be able to use stealth when taking damage. After that ITC he'll be able to roll again, but not 2 consecutive, and at that rate he doesn't have enough time to recover stealth, therefore he's doom. **** it why am I teaching you a very simple technique on how to beat TR. Unfortunately your research is not enough to prove that this thread has its reasons to nerf the TR.
Please do not attack the OP since they are asking for help. It is an improvement from making posts that make TRs seem OP. Please help the creator of the thread.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
Pretty sure high rank powerplayers who're already geared and only fight in premades do not give a *** about this, but it's still part of the game and the community...
BTW, thanks for the help.
So what you're saying is after the meaningless 1v1 the TR is immediately killed by GWF's team? Since this is a 5v5 match and not a 1v1 and it is domination and not deathmatch it seems to me that since the TR is killed after killing someone it's not unbalanced. If the TR could hold the point forever killing player after player then there might be an argument, but this means nothing...
The point I'm getting at here is that in a team game half the battle is strategy, using the right player to counter the other teams player. Lemonade stand understands that and is not horrified by that video lol. If you have a perma-stealth TR hounding your back point then you send a TR with Path of the blade, or send back the GWF once his slam is up. Or he could even just slot roar + not so fast to flush out the TR, a good player may change his skills around multiple times in a match to combat different strategies.
The TR has to stay somewhere on the point to continue holding the node so it's a very small area he must be in and with sprint GWF can find him pretty quickly, especially with aoe encounters.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Second thought go ahead and attack the OP all you want since I did not mention NERF in my post in this thread. They deserve all the attacks they get. I said you made the TRs seem OP in your previous posts and I was being nice by asking the other poster not to attack you. I normally do not give a *** and decided to be nice for once. Forget being nice since you want to make obnoxious comments.
No one should attempt to help you at all since you want to argue against every suggestion. Rolling a TR to learn it is the best way but you disagree so aw well your loss.
Remember you dying because of a TR is your own fault not the TR's fault. Have a nice day.:)
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
Now: it's not written anywhere in my posts "TRs are OP".
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Oh sorry did not know that was inflammatory I will keep that in mind. I apologize for responding to posts that violate RoC. Thank you.
I will be civil. I said your post made TRs seem to be OP. I did not say you said "TRs are OP". I will drop the subject now but honestly I was originally defending you when the other poster attacked you and you attacked me. Sorry you took me defending you as an attack.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)