Can we finish? - the joy of pugs

yyrkoonstyphoon

Seems since the release of the new content, I have not managed to finish any DD other than Cloak Tower and I am getting frustrated. The 3 toons i run all are 9.6 - 12k gs and where I used to take Cragmire and Idris for granted, I cannot seem to get a pug through them. On my DC, I would heal these so well that i was experimenting the last few runs before the release of shadar...now, I am not able to beat the end bosses.

What is worse is we will make it all the way to the end boss without any indication we are going to fail. no deaths everyone is ripping the adds to bits...then bam.. end boss and wipe. and wipe... then people get frustrated and quit and no complete.

The parties seem to all be well geared too. Almost all purples and everyone is perplexed. I never used the cheat methods, like climb the spikes in Idris... i did not have to do so.

The one thing that did change is I bought the fey pack and i slotted the purple armor enchant that came with the pack. i would have expected this to have made me more resilliant, but instead I am dieing a lot in the end bosses. I have to assume the bosses were improved (like the casual players need more of a challenge), the 'nerfs' all the classes recieved are showing us why they were not the best idea, or the armor slot is bugged and causing me to take more damage...

I am in a small guild of friends so joining an active guild is not an option. To be honest, if i have to be in a guild to complete the basic quests, that indicates a balance issue to me. The folks I am pugging with are saying the same thing and they know 'what needs to be done' to beat these early quests, i mean they are rated 6800 gs or less... and i have almost double this.

Are other folks having this experience too or have i just had really bad pug luck?

degraafination

Join a guild.

yyrkoonstyphoon

degraafination wrote: »

Join a guild.

yyrkoonstyphoon wrote: »

I am in a small guild of friends so joining an active guild is not an option. To be honest, if i have to be in a guild to complete the basic quests, that indicates a balance issue to me.

reading comprehension.

tang56

Sounds like bad luck. Have you tried explaining the boss fight mechanic even if they say they know what they're doing? Especially for a fight like Idris you are telling the group to clear the first and second floor before pulling the boss then having one person kite the hulks for the fight?

sapientcrow

From what I have seen so far ripping through adds has 0 indication of success against boss mechanics. Bosses seem to go in waves and usually the lack of add focus creates many wipe scenarios. Also clerics are not able to heal through people standing in aoe or other mass damage mechanics. those are meant to be avoided hence the active combat mechanic which is awesome and often underused.

PUG mentality is usually pretty horrible with 3 to 4 wipes and quit. I myself am currently looking for some regualr people /guild to join so I can explore and experience the content and avoid the rng pug mode as much as possible.

degraafination

yyrkoonstyphoon wrote: »

reading comprehension.

Join a better guild. Have all your friends join. Make it an option.

cbrowne0329

Eh having done Idris with PUGs and killing it a little over a week ago with my (at the time) brand new CW with a 8.9GS and still rocking some blues... I think it was just a case of bad luck.

cesmode8

Ill agree with OP. This is the first game that I have shyed away from dungeons and it is sad because honestly..the dungeons, while they are definately add fests, are difficult to an extent. They arent push overs like in WoW. They do require a bit of coordination, even if it is an add fest. And I like that.

But I hate how we are 45 minutes into a run, two or three wipes and people leave. And then we get 0 credit.
Also contributing to my lack of desire to run a dungeon is everyone wants to speed run and expects it of you. If you mess up, you are the laughing stock and they give you hell.

"Join a guild" possibly the most redundant and dumb response to anything on a forum. You can apply that to nearly every complaint or concern someone might have. You should not HAVE to be in a guild to have a good experience in an MMO. MMO doesnt stand for "Completed by guilds only". MMO is massive multiplayer online. You should be able to PUG and have a good experience.

pointsman

Funny that you should mention Idris. I was in a PUG just this weekend doing Idris and it was the first time our team had failed at Idris as a PUG. The problem was a lack of communication. It is hard when you are an experienced player and you are with a bunch of players who are obviously new to the dungeon, you want to give sound advice but you don't want to come off as overbearing and condescending either. So I tried to give advice on the 'preferred' strategy but they weren't interested in listening.

I did learn how hard Idris is "supposed" to be if you just attack it head-on without any thoughts concerning strategy.

seisem2

You need to find a group of better players. Honestly I take Pugs with a grain of Salt. I know that my GWF is so overpowered for T1 that I can carry any group through those, but T2 pugs I have to at least have some other decent players with me.

Seriously though, this is pretty much "end game content". If you want to complete it without hassles, you will need to find a serious guild.

cesmode8

seisem2 wrote: »

You need to find a group of better players. Honestly I take Pugs with a grain of Salt. I know that my GWF is so overpowered for T1 that I can carry any group through those, but T2 pugs I have to at least have some other decent players with me.

Seriously though, this is pretty much "end game content". If you want to complete it without hassles, you will need to find a serious guild.

I truely don't mind a game that has 5-man content that is so difficult it is considered 'end game'. I would be more into dungeons if most of them werent so easily exploitable and glitched. I would love to consider difficult 5 man dungeons as 'end game' rather than tradition raiding where I need to schedule off time per week to complete.

Wish cryptic/pwe would knock out all of the exploits and campfire runs.

grimah

pugs are alot harder these days, but if you want to finish you need to go into it thinking some may not be experienced. and if some are not, it is up to you to explain to them the tactics or what to do.

Some choose not to and just rage/fail. Ive had success with my pugs but some have indeed took some wipes before completion. It is up to you which pug to choose, who you invite and how you deal with problems.

cbrowne0329

cesmode8 wrote: »

Ill agree with OP. This is the first game that I have shyed away from dungeons and it is sad because honestly..the dungeons, while they are definately add fests, are difficult to an extent. They arent push overs like in WoW. They do require a bit of coordination, even if it is an add fest. And I like that.

But I hate how we are 45 minutes into a run, two or three wipes and people leave. And then we get 0 credit.
Also contributing to my lack of desire to run a dungeon is everyone wants to speed run and expects it of you. If you mess up, you are the laughing stock and they give you hell.

"Join a guild" possibly the most redundant and dumb response to anything on a forum. You can apply that to nearly every complaint or concern someone might have. You should not HAVE to be in a guild to have a good experience in an MMO. MMO doesnt stand for "Completed by guilds only". MMO is massive multiplayer online. You should be able to PUG and have a good experience.

I don't know about WOW... but every MMO I have ever played... has required you to either A) Have a huge friend's list to enjoy the experience or join a guild. I mean hell DnD is about group with friends/guilds across all their games. It's even in 99% of the story lines. Gauntlygrym REQUIRES you to be in a guild to get in....

So yeah... the "join a guild" answers are kinda valid.

cesmode8

cbrowne0329 wrote: »

I don't know about WOW... but every MMO I have ever played... has required you to either A) Have a huge friend's list to enjoy the experience or join a guild. I mean hell DnD is about group with friends/guilds across all their games. It's even in 99% of the story lines. Gauntlygrym REQUIRES you to be in a guild to get in....

So yeah... the "join a guild" answers are kinda valid.

Dont take this the wrong way...then you are "playing wrong". Either that, or any game that forces you to guild is doing it wrong.

And in WoW, you dont need to be in a guild to do anything. Maybe in the first 2 or 3 years you had to guild to raid. But you asked in map for dungeon groups, trading, etc. Then came dungeon finder, then came LFR, and now Flex Raiding.

Not a fan of WoW, just sayin..

And to my first point here, I did not mean to offend by saying "you are playing it wrong". But maybe looking at MMOs and saying "I need to be in a guild in order to have fun" is a bad mentality to get into. Sure, people love guilds and guilds are fun for them. But not everyone enjoys them and some find them rather stressful and choose to avoid.

slayorian

You don't have to join a guild to complete basic dungeons. But it certainly helps when doing EPIC dungeons.

seisem2

cesmode8 wrote: »

I truely don't mind a game that has 5-man content that is so difficult it is considered 'end game'. I would be more into dungeons if most of them werent so easily exploitable and glitched. I would love to consider difficult 5 man dungeons as 'end game' rather than tradition raiding where I need to schedule off time per week to complete.

Wish cryptic/pwe would knock out all of the exploits and campfire runs.

But in the mean time you can play with a guild that doesn't use cheats or exploits. That is how we play in our guild. Cheating is not only condemned - it isn't tolerated.

diogene0

Most of the T2s can be finished with a pug. Half of the times, at least. If you play a DC, i'd say the issue is you.

rollingonit

If you're looking for strategy rather than people telling you to join a guild.

Most of the dungeons require some type of add management. Either by focusing and burning down adds each phase they spawn then refocusing on boss (TRs will typically stay on boss for the single target expertise), or having a very good DC/GF/ (or OP CW/GWF sent) kite them (particular dungeons will sometimes lean towards kiting) or CW throw all adds off cliffs. This needs to be communicated to all members prior to starting.

I like to pug, the randomness adds a bit of spice outside of the normal guild runs I do; plus sometimes you meet some new decent people.

The troubles I run into with pugs. Someone essential is either undergeared or doesn't play their class properly or slot properly for the group composition. There's really not much you can do, other than suggest they slot some power that's needed. If undergeared you typically just hope for the best or hope rest of the group can carry.

They do not speak English or vice versa, depending if more speak whatever language. I will not call anyone out in particular, but I do have trouble with one group of people; who never listen or attempt to communicate, they are always fail runs; I chalk it up as fail when I have one or more in the group.

The group is used to one way of running it and refuse to attempt another. This mostly is the zerg the boss tactic. For some reason some groups only want to zerg the boss and completely ignore the adds. Usually leaving the DC to fend for himself. If the DC is geared very well itll sometimes work but will be sloppy and a lot more running for the DC. If you are unsure about the strength or composition of the group, communicate to group who should handle adds and if they should be ff/burned down or kited. The individual strat will depend on dungeon and strength of group.

When you pug its like an RNG mechanic, so you have to expect a few fail runs or a few fail tries before success. When you do run into people that work well together or know the dungeons well, just ask to friend them. Or pick their brain for strats.


GL sir/mam

pointsman

It can be a difficult thing trying to finish the T2 dungeons. If you try to PUG, you'll more than likely end up with people who don't communicate well and just run around not really knowing what to do, leading to a failed dungeon run. If you try to use the LFG channel, the people there expect you to have experience, but if you haven't finished the dungeon, you can't really claim experience: a catch-22. Or they just expect you to know the exploits, which even if you aren't opposed to using exploits, you can't really figure out unless you're with an experienced team willing to teach you the exploits, which you aren't able to join because you don't already know the exploits!

So a guild that has a focus on dungeon runs seems about the only way to do it reliably.

yyrkoonstyphoon

diogene0 wrote: »

Most of the T2s can be finished with a pug. Half of the times, at least. If you play a DC, i'd say the issue is you.

Nice! I have run and completed the quests I am discussing many, many times on my DC. I mentioned I had even gotten to a point where I was experimenting with my healing, trying new powers or even going for more DPS before the patch. I have carried these with my dc. The same is true with my GF, and my CW. I have close to 40 runs in on these 3 dungeons between my toons.

Everything was fine and I was feeling comfortable moving on to the higher end dungeons... then the update came out and it seems everything has changed.

Is there an option to create a chat channel that more than on guild can participate in? on DDo we had sister guilds and a channel that you could put out an lfm to draw from a better player base.

pointsman

rollingonit wrote: »

The group is used to one way of running it and refuse to attempt another. This mostly is the zerg the boss tactic. For some reason some groups only want to zerg the boss and completely ignore the adds. Usually leaving the DC to fend for himself.

AND, usually, leaving the CW to fend for him/herself. As a CW, this just irritates me to no end. Especially since the shield AP nerf.

xelliz

I pug almost everything I do, because I too have my own personal guild with only 3 other active players, so I feel the pain of the OP. However, it has been my experience that the 5700 GS epics are easy (no idea why people are wiping on cragmire), where as the 6800 GS epics are OMFGWTF! I would like to complete them eventually, but I just said F that, because the 8300 GS epics have been a lot easier to PUG then the 6800 ones and are better loot drops.

bioshrike

If you are mainly playing a DC, and you are a good player, your ability to heal and buff can actually act as a crutch - the team stops caring about red circles and positioning, and just stands tow-to-toe with every enemy, spamming their attacks. Now you get to the boss fight, and the other players have become so complacent in their playstyle that they don't bother worrying about positioning or tactics at all.

There really needs to be a more prominent ramp-up of difficulty between the start of a dungeon and its final boss fight...

cbrowne0329

xelliz wrote: »

I pug almost everything I do, because I too have my own personal guild with only 3 other active players, so I feel the pain of the OP. However, it has been my experience that the 5700 GS epics are easy (no idea why people are wiping on cragmire), where as the 6800 GS epics are OMFGWTF! I would like to complete them eventually, but I just said F that, because the 8300 GS epics have been a lot easier to PUG then the 6800 ones and are better loot drops.

Gray Wolf Den and Lair of the Mad Dragon end bosses I find harder than ANY of the 8300. So once I get my GS high enough with a toon... usually run those instead of trying to complete either of those 2 with PUGs.

inthefade462

People really need to start differentiating between pug (pick up group, formed from zone/lfg channel) and queue groups, completely random groups arbitrarily created from a bunch of solo queuers.

I dont expect anything from queue groups and neither should anyone else. You hope that they all speak some form of english or atleast are literate, and that the queue gave you a dc or atleast not all gwfs.

Actual pugs can accomplish anything in this game, if they are selective enough. Pugs finish Mc/cn all day every day.

For ones that arent that selective and dont mind inexperienced players, you can still do fine, especially as a dc, "carrying" new players through.

cbrowne0329

inthefade462 wrote: »

People really need to start differentiating between pug (pick up group, formed from zone/lfg channel) and queue groups, completely random groups arbitrarily created from a bunch of solo queuers.

I dont expect anything from queue groups and neither should anyone else. You hope that they all speak some form of english or atleast are literate, and that the queue gave you a dc or atleast not all gwfs.

Actual pugs can accomplish anything in this game, if they are selective enough. Pugs finish Mc/cn all day every day.

For ones that arent that selective and dont mind inexperienced players, you can still do fine, especially as a dc, "carrying" new players through.

By the time MOST PUGs are ready for CN/MC they are pretty competent. When I refer to PUGs, I am ALWAYS talking about zone created. However, at that GS unless they have other toons... people are not likely to understand the mechanics of the harder dungeons like GWD and LotMD.

rollingonit

I think OP refers to pugs as queue based. My response was based off that. LFG pugs are completely diff, like poster above said. I rarely see any LFG T1 groups.

slushpsycho

Stop pugging or only go do exp pug from zone chat.
If u play dc don't do random pug when u get a bad team there is zero chance for u to carry them even if that is a T1.

adinosii

Like the OP, I am primarily a DC, and most of my dungeon runs are with guild mates....generally successful, although I have to admit that we once gave up on MC after several wipes at the final boss. Anyhow, in between I do PUGs,and...well, that's a quite different story.

Some group members seem to have minimal gear - probably hit 60 recently, and are suffering from lack of experience....others seem to have good gear, but quite frankly some of them don't seem to understand how to use their powers. I have seen GFs that seem unable to hold aggro, CWs that seem unable to control - seem to think the best thing to do is always to throw the adds around (which makes life harder for the GF and everyone else) and most of all, people that seem unable to follow directions like "start on the left side of the room, when that is cleared, everyone on the boss, until the add waves appear, then....." and so on.

It may be a language issue, or just inexperience, but random PUGs are just ...well, a recipe for failure. Having said that, I have managed to complete every dungeon with a PUG with the exception of DV, CN and MC) ... you should not be limited to just running Cloak Tower.

yerune

I agree that communication is vital to complete a dungeon, but joining a guild doesn't add a couple of IQ points and miraculously makes you or your guildies great players.

trollgre

some dungeons are just too OP you need high GS or BiS gears on some dungeons if you do it the normal way (normal = no sniping and suicide)