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On dungeon exploits and how to address them realistically
nwnghost
Member, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
My personal opinion is that there is a sizable number of players that exploit dungeons primarily because of the so-called "trash-adds / trash-mobs" and the time and effort it takes to kill them versus the low reward for doing so.
Having played through every dungeon multiple times (except CN and MC) and levelled multiple characters to 60 in solo content, what I have noticed is that the hitpoints of dungeon (and Skirmish) monsters does not scale very well.
The most basic monsters are generally fine. They have roughly 5x the HP that they have in solo mode. This category includes Zombie Rotters, Imps, Decrepit Skeletons, Wretches, Goblin Cutters etc.
The next tier up monsters have moderately too much HP, but not quite so much that you will notice it all the time, depending on your group. This includes monsters such as Ash Disciple, Troll Grunt, Skeleton Warrior, Battlescarred Orc etc.
On the 3rd tier, monsters start feeling a bit like a grind to kill. They are not overly dangerous but the fight against them (5v1) seems to drag on and get boring. This group includes monsters such as Berserkers, Death Wights, Nothic Mindwarp/Plaguegazer, Eye of Gruumsh, Legion Devils, Hulks, Battlemasters, Arachnomancers
On the 4th tier, monsters tend to deal very high amounts of very avoidable damage but also have so much HP that defies their sometimes otherwise fragile appearance. This group includes Erinyes, Kobold Wyrmpriests, Ogre Savages, Battle Wight Commanders, Loremasters etc
On the final tier, these are what you could consider minibosses, except they are fairly numerous in dungeons and have so much HP that your group spends a good 2-4 minutes per kill, depending on DPS. These are also CC immune. This group includes Plaguechanged Maws, Rimefire Golems, Driders, Magma Brutes etc
While invisible walls can be placed everywhere to make a dungeon linear and prevent a large number of exploits, the run to campfire + wipe issue can never be fully resolved and is what is done most of the time to avoid lengthy unrewarding fights with high HP enemies.
My suggestion would be to look at, and reduce, the HP of these monsters by between 10 and 30% depending on tier in order to:
1. Reduce the need for exploits (which cost potions, kits)
2. Make killing enemies only marginally slower (rather than significantly slower) compared to exploiting
It would also reduce the willingness of individual party members (and thus the entire group) to exploit dungeons, including boss fights, as the adds there can actually be realistically be dealt with at the "required" Gear Score and equipment.
Tier 1 and 2 monsters can keep the HP they have.
Tier 3 monsters should have their HP reduced by 10%
Tier 4 monsters should have their HP reduced by 20%
Tier 5 monsters should have their HP reduced by 30%
Of course only reducing the HP of monsters needs to be compensated by other measures to make the dungeon difficulty not drop like a rock as well.
So I would suggest:
1. Increase the damage dealt by monsters' BASIC ATTACKS by 10% depending on type (The special attacks deal enough damage already, but basic damage is generally a bit low currently)
2. Increasing the number of tier1 monsters by 10% and tier2 monsters by 3% (This indirectly makes it harder to campfire rush)
Increasing monster number indirectly increases coin/loot drops, so little change is needed there, although it would be a nice touch to guarantee a blue item (profession, general) from tier 5 monsters with a small chance of level 5 Enchantments/Runestones or Purple General Item or Profession resource drop.
Having played through every dungeon multiple times (except CN and MC) and levelled multiple characters to 60 in solo content, what I have noticed is that the hitpoints of dungeon (and Skirmish) monsters does not scale very well.
The most basic monsters are generally fine. They have roughly 5x the HP that they have in solo mode. This category includes Zombie Rotters, Imps, Decrepit Skeletons, Wretches, Goblin Cutters etc.
The next tier up monsters have moderately too much HP, but not quite so much that you will notice it all the time, depending on your group. This includes monsters such as Ash Disciple, Troll Grunt, Skeleton Warrior, Battlescarred Orc etc.
On the 3rd tier, monsters start feeling a bit like a grind to kill. They are not overly dangerous but the fight against them (5v1) seems to drag on and get boring. This group includes monsters such as Berserkers, Death Wights, Nothic Mindwarp/Plaguegazer, Eye of Gruumsh, Legion Devils, Hulks, Battlemasters, Arachnomancers
On the 4th tier, monsters tend to deal very high amounts of very avoidable damage but also have so much HP that defies their sometimes otherwise fragile appearance. This group includes Erinyes, Kobold Wyrmpriests, Ogre Savages, Battle Wight Commanders, Loremasters etc
On the final tier, these are what you could consider minibosses, except they are fairly numerous in dungeons and have so much HP that your group spends a good 2-4 minutes per kill, depending on DPS. These are also CC immune. This group includes Plaguechanged Maws, Rimefire Golems, Driders, Magma Brutes etc
While invisible walls can be placed everywhere to make a dungeon linear and prevent a large number of exploits, the run to campfire + wipe issue can never be fully resolved and is what is done most of the time to avoid lengthy unrewarding fights with high HP enemies.
My suggestion would be to look at, and reduce, the HP of these monsters by between 10 and 30% depending on tier in order to:
1. Reduce the need for exploits (which cost potions, kits)
2. Make killing enemies only marginally slower (rather than significantly slower) compared to exploiting
It would also reduce the willingness of individual party members (and thus the entire group) to exploit dungeons, including boss fights, as the adds there can actually be realistically be dealt with at the "required" Gear Score and equipment.
Tier 1 and 2 monsters can keep the HP they have.
Tier 3 monsters should have their HP reduced by 10%
Tier 4 monsters should have their HP reduced by 20%
Tier 5 monsters should have their HP reduced by 30%
Of course only reducing the HP of monsters needs to be compensated by other measures to make the dungeon difficulty not drop like a rock as well.
So I would suggest:
1. Increase the damage dealt by monsters' BASIC ATTACKS by 10% depending on type (The special attacks deal enough damage already, but basic damage is generally a bit low currently)
2. Increasing the number of tier1 monsters by 10% and tier2 monsters by 3% (This indirectly makes it harder to campfire rush)
Increasing monster number indirectly increases coin/loot drops, so little change is needed there, although it would be a nice touch to guarantee a blue item (profession, general) from tier 5 monsters with a small chance of level 5 Enchantments/Runestones or Purple General Item or Profession resource drop.
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Do you know how fast high level npcs can die with the right rotations and spells, even with 9k GS? If you can get enough debuffs in your party, driders or maws should be killed pretty quickly. They don't have a lot of HPs but a lot of damage resistance instead.
If you feel mobs don't die fast enough then i suggest you blame the rogue for not using duellist flurry and wicked reminder and the CW for not using the laser beam on some high HP last bosses like frozen heart.
As it stands, people bounce anything and everything they can, skip, exploit etc past everything they can because 1.Its quicker, and 2.there is no point killing 800 adds because they all drop <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> loot.
T1 dungeons - Trash mobs need to randomly drop T1 items. Not items specific to that particular dungeon, but the whole T1 loot table, as in..could be a ring, neck, boots helm weapon offhand etc.
T2 dungeons - Same thing as above, except trash mobs randomly dropping T2 gear in T2 dungeons. As well as those Tokens that give you 40kad when turned in(cant member the name)
Last but not least. BOSSES SHOULD ALWAYS DROP 1 PURPLE ITEM!!! For the love of god stop making boss's drop ONLY blue items...seriously Cryptic, wtf were you thinking when you thought this was a good idea?
Do this..and I 100% Guarantee no one will be pushing mobs off ledges, and no one will skip ANYTHING.
Reasons why ppl skip or exploit are listed before: no rewards, too much time, unadjusted difficulty, NO boss fight mechanics, NO special content in dungeons, dungeons are simply corridors with mobs rehashed from regular zones with buttload of hp added, and 3 bosses, which represent (apart from bugs) big mob with ton of hp (again) who summons other mobs with a bit less hp. their behaviour in fights depends on original behaviour of regular mobs in zones, no creativity, no adjusting, no scripts or even simpliest mechanics. Did I mention 90% of bosses are bugged?
http://speeddemosarchive.com/Morrowind.html
It's not legitimate in other categories.
I always ask the Party at the beginning how they want to do it.
Level 9-10 enchantments are millions a peice and Perfect Vorpals run 7-10 million a peice. Calculate how many daily skirmishes and foundries it's going to take to earn one. And take a look at Castle Never weapons. I have run 141 Castle Nevers and won a end boss loot roll once. I have done either 2/3 or 3/3 153 Malborg Castles and won one fragment. What motivation do I have to spend 1 1/2 hr in Castle Never with a group that may wipe on the final boss only to get a bound T1 item from the end chest?
You don't know how to make this work, kindly take a look at World of Warcraft better expacs such as TBC and how raid tiers and itemization was done. Take a special, prolonged look at what raid trash mobs dropped.
It not a shame to learn from people that are better than yourself.
Nah, trash should drop awesome purple craft patterns, pieces of a legendary weapon that takes months to get, stuff like this. Bosses should be more rewarding than the trash so people would still go for them.
As for a new breed of farmers, farming is unavoidable in MMOs. This is how people make "money", unless they... you know. So farming is OK. Botting is not however, if you had that in mind, but I don't know if botting t2s is possible.
I like this idea, the exception to it would be this: Trash drops the t1 or t2 rings, neck, belt, etc. and the bosses drop comparable purples to t1/2, and the final boss drops the set item. That way your encouraged to kill trash, and not skip it entirely.