Just removing adds immune to control effects would do the trick (and maybe lowering a bit number of them in some instances), for example:
Pirate King can be done with 4 people: GF,DC,CW and TR/GWF, why? Because of GWF/TR ability to fight the boss 1vs1 and GF/CW ability to control adds (DC role is obvious)
then we have Icespire's Peak with lots of adds, on top of that some of them are immune to control effects and have insane ammount of HP (not to mention that boss casts AoE attacks all the time). I tried almost every tactic that had any sense (including GF running around with all adds on him) and couldn't beat that dungeon, always ended with 20+ adds on my head and AoE from boss that I didn't see because of mass pile of mobs around me.
Perhaps if I would have better gear I would be able to do it more effieciently but I have to get that gear first.
Bottom line: some dungeons needs rebalance
I used to pug DD events. First I stopped due to the frequent crashes, but they fixed most of those already. Since then I did seven T1 dungeons. In all cases did we reach the final boss, but died on first attempt. No big deal right, you just need to discuss strategy and try again. But... instead there is always one player that disconnects, causing the entire team to be disbanded. So the situation is now that I am more likely to fail a DD event than pass it, making it a waste of time, and I rather just farm AD or play some other game. It is much faster to collect Grym coins and get T2 gear than get a full T1 gear through DD. So yes, Epic Dungeons need some reengineering.
Just removing adds immune to control effects would do the trick (and maybe lowering a bit number of them in some instances), for example:
Pirate King can be done with 4 people: GF,DC,CW and TR/GWF, why? Because of GWF/TR ability to fight the boss 1vs1 and GF/CW ability to control adds (DC role is obvious)
then we have Icespire's Peak with lots of adds, on top of that some of them are immune to control effects and have insane ammount of HP (not to mention that boss casts AoE attacks all the time). I tried almost every tactic that had any sense (including GF running around with all adds on him) and couldn't beat that dungeon, always ended with 20+ adds on my head and AoE from boss that I didn't see because of mass pile of mobs around me.
Perhaps if I would have better gear I would be able to do it more effieciently but I have to get that gear first.
Bottom line: some dungeons needs rebalance
Frozen Heart is a good example of what's wrong with the epic dungeons. The golems are control immune and have a ton of HP so they take forever to burn down. The first boss has to be dealt with 3 times and after that it all just blurs into one massive tedious session of dodging and whacking out AoEs while chugging potions and trying to cuddle the DC. Every fight is the same. Unless you use exploits, either dramatic ones like campfiring or 'valid' ones like getting a GF to taunt the mobs into jumping into a chasm, you just die of boredom before reaching the final boss.
We took the last boss down with 4, but that's only cos we had an absolutely superb GF who kited every mob while 2 of us dealt with the missile throwers and the TR gradually wore down the boss. It took 2 or 3 attempts and I got a Belt out of it. Whoopee!
There'd be less exploiting and more queuing if the dungeons were more fun.
Tele Savalas, Dwarf Thaumaturge CW
Putting the Buff into Debuff since 2013 \o/ (Does that even make sense)?
0
krisst0fMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I have seen that sometimes that people quit because they feel party will fail. From my experience most people quit because the party is not moving fast/skipping enough.
Exactly on point! This is what dungeons have become; a queue system for people to use map design tricks to progress through the maps with the least fights possible (even skipping boss fights altogether for a few maps...)
Check the Looking for Group chat and 90% of requests REQUIRE that player know all these routes/tricks...
So if you want to run dungeons, go on google and find the videos that shows how to do that so next time, you'll be easily accepted in a party...^^^
Cryptic better assigns some programmers QUICK to fix these maps "holes" and forces everyone to play the maps as intended... by clearing them legitimately.
Otherwise, many like me will get bored pretty soon and move on to other/better designed games.
Also, since the BoP mess, it is practically impossible to get any armor piece... get rid of the Need/Greed and let everyone rolls for boss drops, regardless of class. It is hard enough to get some AD in this game to ensured you only get crappy rings for sale... which is what this poster is concerned about if I read correctly... (There is no good way to get descent AD anymore except farming bugs and map exploits)
T2 gear should have been bop from the outset. If it's the top tier of gear you can get you should have to earn it by doing more than playing the AH or converting zen into AD's.
Dungeon design could be tightened up quite a lot by equalising the amount of trash between each boss. Maybe having some variety in the whole predicability of red floor and adds spawn would help make things interesting.
Part of the issue with some of the instances are that while they level people very easily bypass the instance if they play a dps class. If they bypass a dungeon through wanting to play the game rather than lurk for hours on end in the enclave waiting for the lfg tool to work then there's a good chance that they might struggle the first time into a place.
From what I've seen of the "epic" dungeons all thats happened is mob scaling to 60 with minimal work being done to see if it'd actually be fun to do.
As others have said a ton of mobs are cc immune so whats the point of having a control wizard as a class if the only ones you can control die by breathing on them? Oh yes, CW's can knock stuff off cliffs with the chance of having the tank charge after them, or just punt stuff out of the healers range so people die and blame the healer. Knockbacks should have been put lower down the skill list so people actually had a chance to know how the game works before they went crazy. But thats kind of off topic.
Most epics I play fail due to the fact that everyone thinks he is the big bad damage dealer and should of course hit the boss. While I as a healer try to stand away from the area effects of the boss will have then soon most of the adds on me while no one in the party even cares. Most time I or the party wipes it is because no one literally tried to kill the adds. And that is quite annoying. I leave such groups after such a fight because it is pointless to run a dungeon when people can't follow a simple strategy. Why should I try to keep a party alive that don't give a **** that the healer gets beaten by half of the adds? Why even try to go to the big boss then with such a party.
So I think most of the times the epics are not too hard, but the players to stupid to play as a team.
Most epics I play fail due to the fact that everyone thinks he is the big bad damage dealer and should of course hit the boss. While I as a healer try to stand away from the area effects of the boss will have then soon most of the adds on me while no one in the party even cares. Most time I or the party wipes it is because no one literally tried to kill the adds. And that is quite annoying. I leave such groups after such a fight because it is pointless to run a dungeon when people can't follow a simple strategy. Why should I try to keep a party alive that don't give a **** that the healer gets beaten by half of the adds? Why even try to go to the big boss then with such a party.
So I think most of the times the epics are not too hard, but the players to stupid to play as a team.
So you are one of those quitters that roll over at the first defeat? Why don't you tell the other players what to do instead of dropping from group? If you do, and they still are too stupid to keep you alive, then you are in your right to leave them to their destiny.
Indeed. We need a way to replace quitters with competent players, even if you are in a boss fight. If enough of the losers leave, eventually you will find yourself with a good team that actually wins.
I think mainly reduce the number of CC immune adds in some dungeons. Karrundax and FH are examples of of too many CC immune adds. Karrundax especially so. Almost all the trash mobs are CC immune when doing a certain attack. remove CC immunity form flamespikers and those ash things. Also reduce the number of CC immune adds in boss fights (like the rimefire golems in FH....)
With the change to the DD chest the only reason to run these is to get gear for yourself. The result is standing around in town spamming for groups for an hour and a half when DD rolls around. This problem is made worse because new content came out and everyone plays it. Which, of course, means if you don't have the gear already you are pretty much SOL. When new content comes out your end game community goes there. As a result old content is now a stepping stone to that end content. Treat it as such.
This is problem is even more complicated due to dungeons having certain party requirements for easier completion.
So how do you fix all this?
- Nerf the dungeons into the ground. Seriously, make it so a pug of bad players with barely the GS to get in can beat it in a few tries. This also effectively removes the specific group requirements.
- Give other players a reason to run it. Give them tier 6 enchants or something from the DD chest. Something, anything.
- Give players the chance to open the DD chest outside of DD in these dungeons. IDK daily quest or something so you can get the end game players to come back and help without giving up their DD for nothing. Doing this may solve the previous issue as people can run the old dungeons off DD and earn AD from salvage.
- Increase the odds of getting the armor. Heck even 100% drop rate is reasonable here (again the idea is to get what's left of your player base into the new content). Getting one group is hard enough. Doing it DD after DD is absurd.
- Give players a way to get set amour pieces without running a specific dungeon. IDK give a choice of armor or a token of some sort in the chest. The tokens can then be used to get the gear of your choice. Make it take more than one token if need be. But there is nothing more frustrating than seeing a 5 people that could form a group spamming for 3 different dungeons. This gives people who need gear a reason to run any dungeon instead of sitting around because they only need boots and no FH groups are forming.
there is nothing wrong with frozen heart (other than the fact the dev's havent closed up the loopholes where people can skip the first boss or two)
not every mob should be at the whim of a CW, (this is why those idiots that think having 3 cw's in a group is "the way to do everything" every class has a viable way to defeat those mobs you so hate in FH and karrundux. just have to change up a few powers you dont normally use, and work together as a team. The dungeons are at perfect learning curves, problem is people just want the trophy even if they didnt win. takes some time to defeat each dungeon, if you arent in a guild join one... join a good one, do some research find the ones that assist players to learn the dungeons without exploits, you will be a better player and laugh at posts on the forums like this one.
I've played Spider yesterday again. I've never managed to beat the final boss and I wonder how you can do it considering you are progressing ingame and don't have the best gear yet you can have.
After my party tried to bug the final boss over 20 minutes, died and died and tried again I left. This is just too dumb to finish a dungeon. Beating the final boss the right way seams almost impossible unless you are a well practiced team with good gear and voicechat and everyone knows what to do and has a plan. Otherwise you wipe in seconds to the adds so this dungeon forces players to expoit it and for new players this is no fun at all. Even worse: You waste so much time until you finally reach the final boss and there you just fail and fail and fail. No wonder ppl try to find exploits then.
Comments
Pirate King can be done with 4 people: GF,DC,CW and TR/GWF, why? Because of GWF/TR ability to fight the boss 1vs1 and GF/CW ability to control adds (DC role is obvious)
then we have Icespire's Peak with lots of adds, on top of that some of them are immune to control effects and have insane ammount of HP (not to mention that boss casts AoE attacks all the time). I tried almost every tactic that had any sense (including GF running around with all adds on him) and couldn't beat that dungeon, always ended with 20+ adds on my head and AoE from boss that I didn't see because of mass pile of mobs around me.
Perhaps if I would have better gear I would be able to do it more effieciently but I have to get that gear first.
Bottom line: some dungeons needs rebalance
Frozen Heart is a good example of what's wrong with the epic dungeons. The golems are control immune and have a ton of HP so they take forever to burn down. The first boss has to be dealt with 3 times and after that it all just blurs into one massive tedious session of dodging and whacking out AoEs while chugging potions and trying to cuddle the DC. Every fight is the same. Unless you use exploits, either dramatic ones like campfiring or 'valid' ones like getting a GF to taunt the mobs into jumping into a chasm, you just die of boredom before reaching the final boss.
We took the last boss down with 4, but that's only cos we had an absolutely superb GF who kited every mob while 2 of us dealt with the missile throwers and the TR gradually wore down the boss. It took 2 or 3 attempts and I got a Belt out of it. Whoopee!
There'd be less exploiting and more queuing if the dungeons were more fun.
Exactly on point! This is what dungeons have become; a queue system for people to use map design tricks to progress through the maps with the least fights possible (even skipping boss fights altogether for a few maps...)
Check the Looking for Group chat and 90% of requests REQUIRE that player know all these routes/tricks...
So if you want to run dungeons, go on google and find the videos that shows how to do that so next time, you'll be easily accepted in a party...^^^
Cryptic better assigns some programmers QUICK to fix these maps "holes" and forces everyone to play the maps as intended... by clearing them legitimately.
Otherwise, many like me will get bored pretty soon and move on to other/better designed games.
Also, since the BoP mess, it is practically impossible to get any armor piece... get rid of the Need/Greed and let everyone rolls for boss drops, regardless of class. It is hard enough to get some AD in this game to ensured you only get crappy rings for sale... which is what this poster is concerned about if I read correctly... (There is no good way to get descent AD anymore except farming bugs and map exploits)
Dungeon design could be tightened up quite a lot by equalising the amount of trash between each boss. Maybe having some variety in the whole predicability of red floor and adds spawn would help make things interesting.
Part of the issue with some of the instances are that while they level people very easily bypass the instance if they play a dps class. If they bypass a dungeon through wanting to play the game rather than lurk for hours on end in the enclave waiting for the lfg tool to work then there's a good chance that they might struggle the first time into a place.
From what I've seen of the "epic" dungeons all thats happened is mob scaling to 60 with minimal work being done to see if it'd actually be fun to do.
As others have said a ton of mobs are cc immune so whats the point of having a control wizard as a class if the only ones you can control die by breathing on them? Oh yes, CW's can knock stuff off cliffs with the chance of having the tank charge after them, or just punt stuff out of the healers range so people die and blame the healer. Knockbacks should have been put lower down the skill list so people actually had a chance to know how the game works before they went crazy. But thats kind of off topic.
So I think most of the times the epics are not too hard, but the players to stupid to play as a team.
It would enhance PvP as well.
<Heroes of the Fallen Lands>
B][url=http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?450191-Dragon-FATE-(International)-(Social-PvP-PvE)]Recruitment Topic[/url][/B
Social, PvE and PvP Guild on Dragon Shard!
That's the point
Indeed. We need a way to replace quitters with competent players, even if you are in a boss fight. If enough of the losers leave, eventually you will find yourself with a good team that actually wins.
With the change to the DD chest the only reason to run these is to get gear for yourself. The result is standing around in town spamming for groups for an hour and a half when DD rolls around. This problem is made worse because new content came out and everyone plays it. Which, of course, means if you don't have the gear already you are pretty much SOL. When new content comes out your end game community goes there. As a result old content is now a stepping stone to that end content. Treat it as such.
This is problem is even more complicated due to dungeons having certain party requirements for easier completion.
So how do you fix all this?
- Nerf the dungeons into the ground. Seriously, make it so a pug of bad players with barely the GS to get in can beat it in a few tries. This also effectively removes the specific group requirements.
- Give other players a reason to run it. Give them tier 6 enchants or something from the DD chest. Something, anything.
- Give players the chance to open the DD chest outside of DD in these dungeons. IDK daily quest or something so you can get the end game players to come back and help without giving up their DD for nothing. Doing this may solve the previous issue as people can run the old dungeons off DD and earn AD from salvage.
- Increase the odds of getting the armor. Heck even 100% drop rate is reasonable here (again the idea is to get what's left of your player base into the new content). Getting one group is hard enough. Doing it DD after DD is absurd.
- Give players a way to get set amour pieces without running a specific dungeon. IDK give a choice of armor or a token of some sort in the chest. The tokens can then be used to get the gear of your choice. Make it take more than one token if need be. But there is nothing more frustrating than seeing a 5 people that could form a group spamming for 3 different dungeons. This gives people who need gear a reason to run any dungeon instead of sitting around because they only need boots and no FH groups are forming.
not every mob should be at the whim of a CW, (this is why those idiots that think having 3 cw's in a group is "the way to do everything" every class has a viable way to defeat those mobs you so hate in FH and karrundux. just have to change up a few powers you dont normally use, and work together as a team. The dungeons are at perfect learning curves, problem is people just want the trophy even if they didnt win. takes some time to defeat each dungeon, if you arent in a guild join one... join a good one, do some research find the ones that assist players to learn the dungeons without exploits, you will be a better player and laugh at posts on the forums like this one.
After my party tried to bug the final boss over 20 minutes, died and died and tried again I left. This is just too dumb to finish a dungeon. Beating the final boss the right way seams almost impossible unless you are a well practiced team with good gear and voicechat and everyone knows what to do and has a plan. Otherwise you wipe in seconds to the adds so this dungeon forces players to expoit it and for new players this is no fun at all. Even worse: You waste so much time until you finally reach the final boss and there you just fail and fail and fail. No wonder ppl try to find exploits then.