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Good Combat System, Bad Everything Else
glyphics84
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 7 Arc User
This is going to be long, so you probably can skip it, but I'm fuming and I gotta get it out.
This game sucks... it's terrible. I gave it a real effort to like it, but I hate it. It's worse than Diablo 3, it's worse than Lord of the Rings Online, it's worse than WoW, it's worse than Lineage, it's worse than FFXI, it's worse than EQ1, EQ2 and probably EQN, it's worse than League of Legends, it's worse than every single online game I have played. You get one expansion to fix your game after you beta and go live. Many games have sucked pre-first expansion and then became amazing post expansion.
You didn't add a progressive raid system, making guilds useless, instead you add a boring solo progression that is tedious and more of the same killing and collecting quests.
You took away DD loot drops and made them BoP, which made it harder to gear up. You counter this by making a chest system during an event that pops up 3-4 times a day, playable 1 time a day by most people. This would be fine and dandy, and everyone would gear up and dance in the streets, except your queue system is abysmal and it takes longer than the event to find a group most of the time, and when you DO get a group it is inevitable that one of them is either; A. A farmer doesn't communicate and ruins everything, B. An idiot who can't listen, C. A terribad player, D. A person who frequently crashes, E. Someone with slim patience who ragequits. That'd be okay, except you can't add new players to your group! WTF! This is probably the SOLE reason that this game is useless. You make it HARD to group in a game that REQUIRES grouping.
This is how my experience has gone. I started out the game, new and hopeful. The combat system seemed fresh, and the reimagined class roles were inspired. The Cleric is very battle oriented, the Tank is immune to damage when timed correctly, the CW can AE or push, the GWF can rush around and dance with his sword, the TR can sneak, pull, and do some great single target damage. "Great!", I thought, a game with a sort of FPS approach to combat, this should be fun. And it was, it was fun leveling up the first time, decently fun the second time, repetitive the third, fourth and fifth, but that's normal for MMOs. The crafting system is unique. Set it and forget it, check it online and such. Another fun feature. So far, so good. I tend to not group until I have a good hold on a game, because I hate being a bother to others, so I leveled up to 60 on all classes and started off to find a guild to learn zones with and get the best of the best gear.
I started with my CW, I sat in PE for hours looking for a guild and I found one. Peak time they had 6 players on, never got a group with them and sat in queues for hours. Moved on from there to another guild. Peak time they had 11 players, I grouped with them once and it went well, but the next week turned up 0 groups and no more than 5 online at a time. The third guild, same, fourth same, fifth same, sixth same... I advertised daily, for hours, looking for an active guild. Nothing.
There is a reason for this. Guilds have no use. There are no daily, weekly, monthly raids where everyone needs to come together. You only need 4 friends and nothing else. There is no need to gear up your weak links because you need them to raid, they just sit there and get no groups, no gear, no use.
So I have trouble gearing up, getting experience (which is 100% necessary to group at this point), and progressing.
I figure I'll give the GWF a try, little did I know that groups just don't really care for them unless they have 13k+ GS. Fine, I get it, hybrid classes always suffer in MMOs, and since there is no off-tanking or any sort of raid use for them, GWF is pointless.
So I'll move on, I try the DC. It's fun, probably the best cleric class I've ever played. Even with weak gear you can keep a group up. You get groups through the queue system fairly easily. I played dungeon after dungeon, hour after hour, just in queue'd groups. What did this get me? Not a single thing. Not a single drop. Why? Because queue groups often fail because of a single weak link which can't be replaced, so they drop or they pull fake chests, or they do whatever they do to ruin the game and you never finish a dungeon.
So what do you do at this point? I'm still interested in progressing and being a better player. I whip out the wallet, I become a founder, I buy some Zen, I get some stones, I get 4 characters geared up around 10k GS, I look up builds, I study strats, I get everything in order to be a productive group member using my REAL money. What does this get me? Some shiny **** that's about it. The queue system still puts me with idiots, the guild system still is pointless, the crafting system yields no real rewards, solo questing is pretty friggin pointless.
Well, an expansion is coming this will ALL get fixed! Right? Wrong. It's worse. BOP screws anyone trying to get some cheap purple gear, which is basically required to get the groups that will actually get you the T2+ loot drops. It's harder to get groups, guilds are dropping like flies, PVP is pointless, GG is boring.
Have any of the developers played an MMO? Do they know what it feels like to be fully immersed into a game? Your maps show that you have no clue. They're twisting, winding and cramped. The areas feel so small. Step into a WoW zone, an EQ zone, a LotRO zone, FFXI zone... what do you feel? They're expansive, huge, massive... you feel like you're in an awe inspiring place. Even the dungeons feel less cramped than your out door zones. Your map system sucks, you can't even see what a path or a wall is most of the time by looking at it.
If you want to fix your game, fix grouping, fix guilds, and add raid content. REAL raid content. Not this "everyone should be able to do it" mentality that most games seem to have, but the old "if you aren't hardcore, you aren't making it past the door" ****. Bring it back. Make this game exciting for all players.
First and foremost, make it so we can add people to our group if the current players aren't cutting it. This will make EVERYONE happy. Second, eliminate Dungeon Delves and just give us a BoP chest at the end. Some people can't play during DD, and grouping is 100% pointless when it isn't a DD. Third, give guilds a reason to gear up their crappy players, put in a few raid zones with 4 group content. Fourth, get rid of about 499 of the 503 currencies in the game. You only need 2 or 3, store currency, in game and MAYBE AD. The rest is just too much. Fourth, make things account bound, and stop restricting how people spend their time. If I want to farm on my CW for my DC I should be able to.
This game sucks... it's terrible. I gave it a real effort to like it, but I hate it. It's worse than Diablo 3, it's worse than Lord of the Rings Online, it's worse than WoW, it's worse than Lineage, it's worse than FFXI, it's worse than EQ1, EQ2 and probably EQN, it's worse than League of Legends, it's worse than every single online game I have played. You get one expansion to fix your game after you beta and go live. Many games have sucked pre-first expansion and then became amazing post expansion.
You didn't add a progressive raid system, making guilds useless, instead you add a boring solo progression that is tedious and more of the same killing and collecting quests.
You took away DD loot drops and made them BoP, which made it harder to gear up. You counter this by making a chest system during an event that pops up 3-4 times a day, playable 1 time a day by most people. This would be fine and dandy, and everyone would gear up and dance in the streets, except your queue system is abysmal and it takes longer than the event to find a group most of the time, and when you DO get a group it is inevitable that one of them is either; A. A farmer doesn't communicate and ruins everything, B. An idiot who can't listen, C. A terribad player, D. A person who frequently crashes, E. Someone with slim patience who ragequits. That'd be okay, except you can't add new players to your group! WTF! This is probably the SOLE reason that this game is useless. You make it HARD to group in a game that REQUIRES grouping.
This is how my experience has gone. I started out the game, new and hopeful. The combat system seemed fresh, and the reimagined class roles were inspired. The Cleric is very battle oriented, the Tank is immune to damage when timed correctly, the CW can AE or push, the GWF can rush around and dance with his sword, the TR can sneak, pull, and do some great single target damage. "Great!", I thought, a game with a sort of FPS approach to combat, this should be fun. And it was, it was fun leveling up the first time, decently fun the second time, repetitive the third, fourth and fifth, but that's normal for MMOs. The crafting system is unique. Set it and forget it, check it online and such. Another fun feature. So far, so good. I tend to not group until I have a good hold on a game, because I hate being a bother to others, so I leveled up to 60 on all classes and started off to find a guild to learn zones with and get the best of the best gear.
I started with my CW, I sat in PE for hours looking for a guild and I found one. Peak time they had 6 players on, never got a group with them and sat in queues for hours. Moved on from there to another guild. Peak time they had 11 players, I grouped with them once and it went well, but the next week turned up 0 groups and no more than 5 online at a time. The third guild, same, fourth same, fifth same, sixth same... I advertised daily, for hours, looking for an active guild. Nothing.
There is a reason for this. Guilds have no use. There are no daily, weekly, monthly raids where everyone needs to come together. You only need 4 friends and nothing else. There is no need to gear up your weak links because you need them to raid, they just sit there and get no groups, no gear, no use.
So I have trouble gearing up, getting experience (which is 100% necessary to group at this point), and progressing.
I figure I'll give the GWF a try, little did I know that groups just don't really care for them unless they have 13k+ GS. Fine, I get it, hybrid classes always suffer in MMOs, and since there is no off-tanking or any sort of raid use for them, GWF is pointless.
So I'll move on, I try the DC. It's fun, probably the best cleric class I've ever played. Even with weak gear you can keep a group up. You get groups through the queue system fairly easily. I played dungeon after dungeon, hour after hour, just in queue'd groups. What did this get me? Not a single thing. Not a single drop. Why? Because queue groups often fail because of a single weak link which can't be replaced, so they drop or they pull fake chests, or they do whatever they do to ruin the game and you never finish a dungeon.
So what do you do at this point? I'm still interested in progressing and being a better player. I whip out the wallet, I become a founder, I buy some Zen, I get some stones, I get 4 characters geared up around 10k GS, I look up builds, I study strats, I get everything in order to be a productive group member using my REAL money. What does this get me? Some shiny **** that's about it. The queue system still puts me with idiots, the guild system still is pointless, the crafting system yields no real rewards, solo questing is pretty friggin pointless.
Well, an expansion is coming this will ALL get fixed! Right? Wrong. It's worse. BOP screws anyone trying to get some cheap purple gear, which is basically required to get the groups that will actually get you the T2+ loot drops. It's harder to get groups, guilds are dropping like flies, PVP is pointless, GG is boring.
Have any of the developers played an MMO? Do they know what it feels like to be fully immersed into a game? Your maps show that you have no clue. They're twisting, winding and cramped. The areas feel so small. Step into a WoW zone, an EQ zone, a LotRO zone, FFXI zone... what do you feel? They're expansive, huge, massive... you feel like you're in an awe inspiring place. Even the dungeons feel less cramped than your out door zones. Your map system sucks, you can't even see what a path or a wall is most of the time by looking at it.
If you want to fix your game, fix grouping, fix guilds, and add raid content. REAL raid content. Not this "everyone should be able to do it" mentality that most games seem to have, but the old "if you aren't hardcore, you aren't making it past the door" ****. Bring it back. Make this game exciting for all players.
First and foremost, make it so we can add people to our group if the current players aren't cutting it. This will make EVERYONE happy. Second, eliminate Dungeon Delves and just give us a BoP chest at the end. Some people can't play during DD, and grouping is 100% pointless when it isn't a DD. Third, give guilds a reason to gear up their crappy players, put in a few raid zones with 4 group content. Fourth, get rid of about 499 of the 503 currencies in the game. You only need 2 or 3, store currency, in game and MAYBE AD. The rest is just too much. Fourth, make things account bound, and stop restricting how people spend their time. If I want to farm on my CW for my DC I should be able to.
Post edited by glyphics84 on
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both of which I can completely agree with, although new people for the group should be random, to stop guilds abusing this.
While I don't agree with everything stated, mainly about the maps which are fine enough for me, or that this is the worst game ever, most of this is pretty on-point. The sheer absurdity in the number of currencies is beyond belief. The only currency which actually matters more or less requires people to buy it or get it from selling to those who have exploited for it/gotten it from selling to people who bought it. Gold is completely useless other than to buy consumables (which don't even matter for 99% of the game). Never have I played a game where the combat-won currency was so useless.
Dungeon Delves was a nice idea on paper, but terrible in that it gives you no incentive to run dungeons (and subsequently deal with the usually terrible player base and the queue system) outside of that time. The devs spent so much time on single-use, low to upper mid level content that they completely overlooked what to do end game. As someone who also has 5 60s, there is little point in logging in now. My "main" has the best gear, all bought from the broker thanks to the inability to find a decent, consistent group. What incentive do I have now? I can log in and basically play a progression that hinders me like an MMO in terms of timed quests and prolonged questing, but with none of the benefits of the social aspect of an MMO.
Put simply, there is no satisfying end game. You can race to 60 in no time - my last toon went from 1 to 60 in 5 days without trying. But then what? A short, unsatisfying attempt to inflate my e-peen by getting the best purple gear just to say, "Oh, my GS is 13k. Now what?" Upgrades are marginal, no gear has any special or unique effects other than set bonuses, most of which just suck. Sure, I can use an enchantment to proc 500 damage when my abilities hit for 4-10k+. /yawn
While some love it, I think that this game has the worst, most uninspired crafting system I've ever seen. It's all about a time sink crafting system which is like playing online spreadsheets. The combination system of "hit or miss" with enchantments is a cheap and obvious ploy to make people buy wards. Sure, it's great that, once per week, if you log on every day, you will either get a green or blue ward, but that's ridiculous IMO as well.
The fact that PE is the laggiest zone in any game ever and the servers don't populate instances correctly is also frustrating. Why would I EVER choose to log into a zone at the 150 player level when there are 10 other instances with 10 players in them? Bad programming. Why should I have to "break" a kit every time I successfully open a harvest node? Poor logic. Why are so many bugs still in game that have been reported, like playing PvP, having the game end during your resurrection timer, and spawning dead in the game world? Poor implementation.
The foundry was another nice idea on paper, but the execution sucked. There is obviously no quality control (understandably). More than half of the ones I've played were buggy and NONE of them were worth the time and effort. A single quest to harvest blueberries in a meadow of fairies with zero risk takes a fraction of the time and is significantly more rewarding.
Where I will liken this game to Diablo III is that it had good ideas and the devs tried to do something different than the tried-and-true standards of other successful MMOs, but in the end, it's a flop and it just proves that you shouldn't mess with a tried-and-true recipe that actually yields success and replay value.
I find the game's combat to be very fun. Unfortunately, to me, nothing else about the game is even remotely engaging. This company has fallen far short of its advertisements and fluff about the game itself, IMHO.
Player models are ugly.
The "customization" of character creation is so limited, you are simply making a clone of the other 500 players you'll see running around. And this is not taking armor or clothing into account. This is just faces and body styles.
There is no exploration value. Everything is on rails. One can only follow a path as one completes one led-by-the-nose quest after another.
There are no leveling alternatives. For those who like to make alts, you either follow the path, or pvp. That's it. I leave the Foundry out of it, as there is a mandatory xp gain limit per minute enforced there, but not on identical content put out by this company. Farm the developers content, but not your own. Hypocrisy.
I could go on and on, but in the interest of space restrictions and a TL/DR thing, I'll stop here. Good day.
Everything else is...not. It makes the same mistakes that older MMOs made at various times, as if learning from others mistakes is either a foreign concept or forbidden by the leaders of whatever religion the entire dev team/publishing company believes in. The too many currencies is something WoW messed up on and fixed 2 expansions ago. The BoE/BoP thing is something that you have to choose one or the other for the vast bulk of the items in the game. WoW shows that 99% BoP works, and EQ showed that 99% BoE (or non-binding in their case) also works (even if BoE systems have issues with ninjaing of items to sell), so long as both systems stay to themselves and don't try and produce offspring.
The instances make the mistakes of mobs having far too much health and the dungeons being needlessly long, while having no interesting mechanics, no worthwhile loot off trash, and no reason to run them outside of the also terrible mechanic of the Dungeon Delve. Ignoring the DD problem, all those offenses have been committed by other MMOs, and fixed in a lot of cases. No excuse for ALL of them to show up in a single game when we are this far along in the world gaming timeline.
The queue system being as poor as it is is simply not excusable. Period. This one wouldn't even be cutting edge 5 years ago.
There are other, smaller examples, but the bottom line is that there are too many examples of how to do things right, or in other cases, what NOT to do, for this many poor design decisions to make it into one game. They have essentially pissed away both a very good combat system AND a well respected IP (the D&D name) at the same time.
I can't help but think of cryptic when i see this.
I doubt that you have played EQ2 then, seriously. EVERY healer in EQ2 is better than the DC in Neverwinter! I have played most of them, the Warden a great HoT healer, the Defiler a perfect warder, the Templar my absolute favorite and op healer with mainly reactive heals. Nothing even comes close to them in the amount of healing and keeping himself or his team alive when you look into the DC. The DC is the most gimped healer I have ever played. In Warhammer Online I played a Zealot which was a beast when it comes to massive PVP and healing there and the Shaman, that boosted his damage while healing and vice versa. Also both were much better than the DC will ever be.
In other games the healers were really needed and people cared for them and tried to keep you alive. What I see in Neverwinter is (especially in PVP) that actually no one really needs you, you lower the overall DPS, the GW or GWF can stay alive good on their own and that absolutely no one in your team tries to keep you alive because you keep them alive. Additionally it is very hard to freely queue as a new lvl 60 DC in Neverwinter for T2 dungeons for everyone wants to have a 13k+ one while they run with TRs and CWs that don't even touch the 10k. And in the end if you don't succeed it is always the DC that did a bad job (and not the CW who was unable to control adds or the TR that was unable to kill them).
Also a party size of only 5 is bad for the healers because in other games you would do lots of those hard dungeons with two healers, maybe one that focusses more on debuffing. Put in 2 DCs in a party in Neverwinter and you drop you dps so much that it will take two hours to finish a hard dungeon!
DC is broken. Period.
I was actually a raid healer for a top guild in EQ2. Sitting in one spot and systematically pressing the same buttons over and over again is not fun. Having to be a part of the combat while still being able to heal is fun.
I am glad that most people agree, it makes me feel like I am warranted in my response to this game. I am not trying to sound like someone who feels entitled to an experience that I choose, I just feel like I could really enjoy this game if the development truly fixed these massively agreed upon issues.
Thanks for the replies.
Action MMOs need to keep ability bloat to a minimum. Tera failed to do that, and it's combat suffered because of it. 12 to 15 ability slots is probably about the max you'd want in an action MMO, because your positioning and awareness are supposed to be more important than your DPS rotation.
Multiclassing is possibly the worst thing you can add to an MMO. Certain 'super builds' break encounters/the entire game due to unforseen and not readily fixable interactions between abilities from different classes. DDO is still struggling with the consequences of having multiclassing (along with severe balance issues between casters and melee in general) and that game has been out for years.
You didn't play a Inquisitor did you? If you were a healer in eq2 on any raid, and you were not throwing out as much dps as you could, you were doing it wrong
This game is obviously made for action MMO players like you, not D&D fans like me.
May Bahamut have mercy on the devs' souls.
Not completely true. Multi-classing makes balancing harder but for a long time in DDO but their 'capstone' system which rewarded characters who stayed in one class, made it was a coin-toss as to which was better, 'pure' or multi-class characters.
I'm very fresh to Neverwinter. Made two 60 lvl characters in one month, with 10-12k gs and ...
I'm incredibly disappointed.
Game have HUGE potential but brand marketing and social marketing is absolutely DEAD.
Game Designers forgot about many important things. (not to mention technical issues - exploits, crashes and so).
- Pay2win isn't the best way to earn money from game. I would even love to Donate Cryptic team (like people donated Path of Exile) if they started to think about players in brain way.
Same thing happens all around the world of gaming, and I'm going to make a website, to show "Earn money" game studios how games should work to give them best ROI (Return on investment).
It's pathethic when you see that kind of productions (also Diablo 3), and mostly players have great ideas how to improve UX (User Experience).
Cryptic for real - Do you have ANY idea what User Experience means ? If not - write to me, give me a job, and i will give you an amazing product, and people will not pay for game items, but will donate huge amounts of money to help improve game.
Few Ideas:
1. Start Listening to your users, who are disappointed by your work.
Dungeons:
1. Give people reason to play dungeons WHOLE WAY LONG, not only speedrunning. How to make that ? Simple. Trash mobs should have just a LITTLE chance to drop epic items (dedicated only to you, not stupid need or greed system). Or at least give some progress. For example for killing 1000 Frozen Wolfs - Reward player with +1% critical severity or anything else useful.
2. Remove Tons of adds ! It's not a way to make it harder. You should make bosses skilfully tough, not only "pay zen, buy items" then you can make dungeons. Boss with 100%-75% hp, u fight with boss and 15 adds. 75%-50% 1 player have to fight with boss solo. 4 others have to fight with his clone . 50-0% hp u have to fight with boss who will gain 3 more AOE abilities and transforms into something scary. People are Ring Runnings in CN, and i hate that ! What's the fun for killing over and over again using exploits ?
3. Add new Items that can be found with Little chance from any mob during dungeons, give people more rewards from trash mobs otherwise no one will run for dungeons.
4. Gear. U should be able to earn money step by step by just playing it the way you like. 25k astral diamonds for each day ? or INCREDIBLE luck and i will earn 200k from dungeon loot once a week ? That's not the way.
I'm going to quit playing because the only thing i can upgrade in my character is Enchants. 5 milion AD for each perfect enchant. I will never pay for them, I will never earn AD for them. So what's the point of playing now ? Doing stupid instances ? Even In Diablo 3, where loot system is broken a lot, it's actually much better than here.
5. Unique items - few sets of epic gear ? And that's the end of collecting items ? Then you have to earn milions for enchants ? No one will buy that.
6. BOP ? this could be a fine option if u just FIX dungeons . u need to already have Tier 2 items to get tier 2 items from dungeon because they are so hard with tons of adds. And now prices are from the roof. Collecting AD from daily quests is incredibly boring.
Why u just can't use other loot system ? Everyone in dungeon should have some chance to get items from bosses and minions without "Need or Greed" which is simply de-motivating. I run 10 times for dungeon, and got not even 1 purple item.
U know what good game needs ? Feeling, that you can find great treasure every time, suddenly, unexpectedly.
7. Diversification and Rewards - I can run all the time for one dugeon to get boots i need, but on my way i should be able to find some "mid price" items which i can sell and feel that i'm gathering, that people are buying, that i'm becoming richer step by step. I don't want to earn 1 Milion AD in 1 hour, but also i don't want to earn 500 AD for whole day running Dungeons and finding NOTHING !
Reward people, let them find, let them explore, let them enjoy game without speedrunning, using exploits.
Dailies should be an "addition" not a coercion.
I'm stuck in this game.
Cryptic
please
/Unstuck
(Sorry for my bad english - I'm from Poland).
FIX THIS GAME!
regards
RED@greatvizer
Some sort of indicator of the number of people in each queue would help. If I'm sitting on Frozen Heart but Spellplague has 4 then I'd like to know and I'll switch in. Knowing the classes would help too - I'd rather not start a dungeon that I know is going to end with quits because we've got no DC or tank.
I know, I know, join a guild, play with friends. I'm in a guild - mostly young nippers still levelling. And I'm too disorganised to sort out a proper friends lists. Surely the whole point of a DD event is that it encourages everyone that wants to loot a dungeon to pile onto the servers at the same time, filling the queue quickly? Well, it doesn't seem to be working.
Going it alone and trusting a bunch of strangers and the queue system is your fault. No need to rant and rave about that issue. Join a guild and make some friends. Otherwise D&D is not for you.
If this were the case , why have any solo content at all? Make the game like EQ was back in the day.
+1 on this.
Not sure you read the original post. I tried 6, yes 6, guilds. None of them, at peak time, were over 11-12 players. That's PEAK, mostly they sat at 5 or 6 and they were already friends that grouped and had no room for new people. How many guilds do I have to join, please let me know. Also, let me know how to search for guilds and join then based on activity. The guilds have no guild levels to show progression, they have no "last played" times on the members, they have no search feature that show membership before joining. Blindly joining and being disappointed gets old after... say... 6 guilds.
Keep this topic up.
Cryptic have to open his eyes.
Another lost soul for the ignore list.
Wow, you ignorant child. A lot of people like the "style" of the game and the branding of D&D.
They want to see the game work and are desperately, as myself am trying to constantly get it to the Developers that things need to change to make it a better game. Make it so that 1,000 new players pick up the game a week instead of leaving it. We will keep trying until it becomes apparent that nothing will change. Some people have a higher tolerance level while others have a short one. I myself will eventually leave this game. It is only a matter of "when". The question is does Cryptic want me to be playing for another 6 years and spend another $1,000 or do they want me to play for another 2-3 months and not spend anything.
I pretty much agree with everything the OP says and I have discuss this with guild and friends. This game is "tuned" to solo play.. it is not much of an MMO.....if this doesn't change..yeah other games on the horizon....... think quick Cryptic... think quick!!!
I now have 2 level 60 1 level 45, I'm soooo ****ing happy I didn't spend a dime on this game, the only end game is to level all characters to max level and once your done you wait hours to get any end game content done.
Maybe you should make the dungeons harder and stop the exploiters running through these dungeons under 5 minutes, running all the way to the last respawn point and ultimately bugging the last boss to get loot. I'm going to level my last 60 while waiting for delves, since this is the only time you can run any dungeons in this game.
Also what other game has only 2 PVP Scenarios... **** how hard is it to create new maps for pvp? K fine there is the GG but you have to wait hours for it to Q.
To
Play
Not
Cry
What shard do you play on?
Same advise I gave before. Join a guild and make friends.