Any team know how bring you down even with you equip. Simple. CW and GF will perma CC you, Rogue and GF will debuff your armor resistance, and GWF/GF with Tenebrous and Rogue burst will kill you. In a skilled team, I would think this takes around 3 seconds.
I play a cleric, and I pvp. I have lots of fun because I am geared for it (about half blues for regen, hit points, deflection, and defense). Last night, some of my pvp mates had zero deaths because I kept healing them while they killed the other team; we did very well.
The healer makes a big difference when he is geared to tank the other team while his teammates kill the other team. After a while, the other teams stopped focusing me because they knew they couldn't kill me. With my healing, they couldn't kill my teammates, either.
Are you talking about going against Pugs or premades? All of my experience in PvP so far has been agains Pugs and I'm on a Pug team, except one time. I face a premade in level 20-29 PvP and it was ugly for me. The enemy team had two CW's on me. After one was through with me, the second one would finish me off with their CC and DPS. It was actually beautiful to watch. If tanking gear would keep alive long enough to feel like my heals made a difference, I'd be happy. Again, I'm not talking about being a healbot.
PvE probably isn't the most compelling reason to oppose DC nerfs; DCs do fine in PvE but are somewhat pigeonholed in group play. It's PvP where the class really shows its weaknesses and suffers more from nerfs to either its healing or damage-dealing capabilities.
no it is felt in PvE as well, People see a cleric and think that they don't need potions, even though potions are the best healing.
no it is felt in PvE as well, People see a cleric and think that they don't need potions, even though potions are the best healing.
That just comes down to not being able to fix stupid. By lvl 60 most players should realize that potions are your lifeline if something goes horribly wrong very quickly and that a DC's ability to save them from imminent death is dependent on cooldown timers and power selection.
I view it more as it being a DC's role to reduce the party's tendency to chug potions by providing defensive support and intermittently pulling the bacon from the fire as needed with big heals like a Divinity-powered HW or BoH.
I will admit that something is wrong in that you really need great gear to perform the essential class functions. Heals without Vorpal = even less bursty.
That just comes down to not being able to fix stupid. By lvl 60 most players should realize that potions are your lifeline if something goes horribly wrong very quickly and that a DC's ability to save them from imminent death is dependent on cooldown timers and power selection.
I view it more as it being a DC's role to reduce the party's tendency to chug potions by providing defensive support and intermittently pulling the bacon from the fire as needed with big heals like a Divinity-powered HW or BoH.
I will admit that something is wrong in that you really need great gear to perform the essential class functions. Heals without Vorpal = even less bursty.
Maybe because healing isn't primary? Clerics can and do heal but that is secondary to buffing/debuffing damage and stuff. I still see the vast majority of level 60 players thinking that clerics primary role is to heal so they don't need potions. So if you are anything but a healbot they complain.
Also the gold cost of potions and injury kits is kind of a moot point now that blues drop more frequently as well as greater ID scrolls (and are worth your while to grab ID and sell). Yet I see see players rage quit if they need to use more then the occasional potion....
Maybe because healing isn't primary? Clerics can and do heal but that is secondary to buffing/debuffing damage and stuff. I still see the vast majority of level 60 players thinking that clerics primary role is to heal so they don't need potions. So if you are anything but a healbot they complain.
Unfortunately, in NW clerics can neither buff nor debuff nor heal quite good.
There few buffs we have are mainly focus on damage reduction. Most of them (DA, HG) are daily powers which now can not be used frequently because of the AP nerf.
Unfortunately, in NW clerics can neither buff nor debuff nor heal quite good.
There few buffs we have are mainly focus on damage reduction. Most of them (DA, HG) are daily powers which now can not be used frequently because of the AP nerf.
Lol no, they have tons of buffs that up defence, Foresight 11% Flat Dmg reduction, Astral Sheild 35% Flat Damage Reduction. Feated Basion of Health 10% Flat Dmg reduction to name a few. Trow a Daily on that and you have something like 70% Dmg reduction. They also have a couple of Defence debuffs and +Dmg modifiers.
So...in other words, yes: the few buffs we have are mainly focussed on damage reduction. That was xiphenon's point.
Plus with only 3 encounters, we kinda need to semi-specialise: you can't debuff, buff, mitigate, deal damage and heal effectively all at the same time. It's 'pick one or two from the list', realistically.
If pugging, it's generally 'pick healing and mitigation'.
EDIT: to clarify, we have more potential utility at our disposal, but at the cost of being fairly HAMSTER at almost all of it (unless focussed & often feated). The other classes are slightly more simple: do damage (+tank/control, if GF/CW). We're kinda supposed to be filling in all the blanks, providing heals if necessary, damage buffs if necessary, mitigation if necessary, extra control if necessary, enemy debuffing if necessary, and so on, but because of the way the game is structured (and because cryptic doesn't seem to know quite what to do with the DC), this doesn't really work terribly well in practice.
pvp with a cleric is a joke. your team won't need you, you can't keep them alive as long as you aren't one of this perfect enchantments/level 9 or 10 enchants and end gear dcs. while any other lower cw or tr can easily do pvp the dc is mainly worthless unless you have maxed him out.
even worse: i see teams dying the most having 2 healers while the others only have dps. they lower the dps of the team while they never can outheal the dps of the other team. that's why healers in the team are often just bad for the team itself. neverwinter is the first game i played where healers were so much useless in pvp and no one of your team tries to keep you alive. some gwf and gf can take the beating of 4 ppl without dying and without a healer supporting him, so why would they need a healer anyway?
or yesterday i was fighting a tr. he was basically dead, only some hitpoints remaining. i was at full health. he permanently stealthed, only blinking in for 1-2 seconds then stealthing again while dealing dmg when i could not see and target him. my damage output was too low to even kill him although he was almost dead anyway. i could not dish out much damage anyway because he permanently was stealthed and my heals could not even do anything against his dps. in the end i was dead and he lived. THAT is a healer in pvp in neverwinter - i have never seen anything close to that in any other mmo i played. healers in other mmos i played would have never died to a rogue that was almost dead anyway! and healers in other mmos i played would have never died to a tank either. in neverwinter you get perma-cc'ed by them. kick, knock-down, kick, kick, kick dead. happens often too me that i am cc'ed until i die. no chance to do a thing. can't click any button, can't dodge, basically i can wait and see how i die. that is fun i can tell you!
Unfortunately, morsitans, yokihiro, you are right. Pvp is for top geared clerics with good teams only (and then they can survive but not contribute much to the teams efforts), and in pve... we can buff defence and that would be it, since healing is simply weak to the point it desnt make any difference. And buffing we can do only as long our team mates keep mobs away from us (and thats not easy with our aggro) since we have no means to defend ourselves.
Summa summarum, sometimes I feel more like an anchor (in pve) than a real asset. And dont start with "with a good team...", good team could probably do it without me.
pvp with a cleric is a joke. your team won't need you, you can't keep them alive as long as you aren't one of this perfect enchantments/level 9 or 10 enchants and end gear dcs. while any other lower cw or tr can easily do pvp the dc is mainly worthless unless you have maxed him out.
even worse: i see teams dying the most having 2 healers while the others only have dps. they lower the dps of the team while they never can outheal the dps of the other team. that's why healers in the team are often just bad for the team itself. neverwinter is the first game i played where healers were so much useless in pvp and no one of your team tries to keep you alive. some gwf and gf can take the beating of 4 ppl without dying and without a healer supporting him, so why would they need a healer anyway?
or yesterday i was fighting a tr. he was basically dead, only some hitpoints remaining. i was at full health. he permanently stealthed, only blinking in for 1-2 seconds then stealthing again while dealing dmg when i could not see and target him. my damage output was too low to even kill him although he was almost dead anyway. i could not dish out much damage anyway because he permanently was stealthed and my heals could not even do anything against his dps. in the end i was dead and he lived. THAT is a healer in pvp in neverwinter - i have never seen anything close to that in any other mmo i played. healers in other mmos i played would have never died to a rogue that was almost dead anyway! and healers in other mmos i played would have never died to a tank either. in neverwinter you get perma-cc'ed by them. kick, knock-down, kick, kick, kick dead. happens often too me that i am cc'ed until i die. no chance to do a thing. can't click any button, can't dodge, basically i can wait and see how i die. that is fun i can tell you!
Honestly u are trolled thats y u kept complaining this class or that class, having decent gear and how u play change what u get. Good geared dc with gd skills don die even 2v1 or even 3. Its even tougher than a tank and do not need protection unless the whole opp team is on u, Is that what u call useless? Tank class can be replaced if thats what u meant. My tr with gd gear find it hard to kill a dc even its a 1v1. Healing is so much effective than dps moreover our cos get nerfed hard!
Do what I do...PVP naked. You tend to stay off the radar better during the fight.
Also wh0 is absolutely right. In my healing gear it usually takes about 4 people to kill me in PVP but you have to play dirty. Stand behind the center pillar at the flag cap to line of sight their casts. Play ring around the Rosie when a melee class is trying to kill you. Time your slides to immune GF bulls (every GF always runs a bee line at you when they are gonna charge you) also can immune rogues power attacks by considering how far away they went stealth and save a second slide for follow up teleport attack.
Kite the other team like mobs and you'll be surprised how terrible people are at chasing you down. I've run from GG PVP flag 3 all the way to flag 1 with a TR, GF and GWF all trying to kill me. Outlasted them long enough to link up with a few buddies and they got smashed.
Healing is so much effective than dps moreover our cos get nerfed hard!
Or maybe you're just not very good at being a TR?
Seriously, TRs can crit for the tens of thousands. As far as I can tell, DCs (even with spectacular gear), don't have a single heal that can burst heal over 10k (even on a crit). Over time, yes, but that's because we're all about HoTs and mitigation, not burst healing. HoTs aren't much use if the first one or two hits kill you.
Damage at 60 scales far, far faster than healing. Our heals are calibrated for handling "lots of PvE monster damage", which is usually of the "lots of dudes doing lots of fairly small hits" variety, where mitigation and HoTs are (almost) adequate. PvP is all about "HIT HARD, as HARD AS POSSIBLE, IN AS FEW HITS AS POSSIBLE", and we don't have much that can deal with that.
Also, we spend an embarassing amount of time either flat on our arses or being force choked. :P
So 24k hits are what I have to look forward to? Even with all the energy of this thread, I'm still going to level my DC to 60. I really enjoy playing dps/support in games. Until this game creates another class that can do both, DC is it for me. At least I know this from this thread: in a Pug, just dps and rez often; in a Premade, learn to work with my team and get better.
Lol no, they have tons of buffs that up defence, Foresight 11% Flat Dmg reduction, Astral Sheild 35% Flat Damage Reduction. Feated Basion of Health 10% Flat Dmg reduction to name a few. Trow a Daily on that and you have something like 70% Dmg reduction. They also have a couple of Defence debuffs and +Dmg modifiers.
Yeah, DCs have tons off buffs that do add defense bonus. Unfortunately, if you understand at least some math, defense that don't add up, is always less effective.
Example:
You take 10000 damage. Foresight reduce the damage by 11% to 8900. Now Astral shield reduce the damage by 30% to 6230 damage, and your armor reduce the damage again by 30% 4361 damage. In total you have abilities that provide 71% of damage. However, since they don't add up, they provide effectively only ~ 67 %. To the more defense you stack, the higher the dimisching return. This is escpacially true for small defense bonus.
The main problem is, none of the uber cleric defense buffs deal any damage. They are quite limited in range. Beside Astral shield, HG and DA they are quite short (< 5 sec).
Honestly u are trolled thats y u kept complaining this class or that class, having decent gear and how u play change what u get. Good geared dc with gd skills don die even 2v1 or even 3. Its even tougher than a tank and do not need protection unless the whole opp team is on u, Is that what u call useless? Tank class can be replaced if thats what u meant. My tr with gd gear find it hard to kill a dc even its a 1v1. Healing is so much effective than dps moreover our cos get nerfed hard!
A class should not only make sense when you have the best gear and enchants on it that is available in the game. If you can't kill a DC with your TR then you should rather think about your TR not the DC. And in a PVP mode that is called "Domination" any tank class that can basically stay forever on a pad without dying is the much better choice than a DC that may only make a fight 5 seconds longer due to his heals.
Show me a class that has 40% less damage output against someone constantly! The DC has 40% less heals on himself! So the only valid reason to play a healer is to healer. They cut his damage, he has low protection and the only thing he would have to compensate that would be healing himself once he is focussed. But that isn't working because the low HoTs will be even lower if casted on myself.
Honestly u are trolled thats y u kept complaining this class or that class, having decent gear and how u play change what u get. Good geared dc with gd skills don die even 2v1 or even 3. Its even tougher than a tank and do not need protection unless the whole opp team is on u, Is that what u call useless? Tank class can be replaced if thats what u meant. My tr with gd gear find it hard to kill a dc even its a 1v1. Healing is so much effective than dps moreover our cos get nerfed hard!
Honestly, I think either you only fight in a premande against HAMSTER equipped newbs, or just lying.
You can sepc a cleric for PvP survival, yes. GCTRL have shown this by regen/deflect/defense build.
However, even a tank build don't will help you, if your opponenst know what they do. You just need 2 classes capable of perma CC you .. and that's not very hard to find. Once you get chain CCed you will get assisted to death by tene enchant burst builds.
GWFs and even GFs are much more efficient if specced for PvP survival, because they have higher HP, can heal them self much better then a cleric (and they don't heal themself for 40% less) and can do burst damage by slotting tene in addition. And, more important, they have tools to resist CC which a cleric is seriously lacking.
So, in principle a cleric specced for tanking is a poor man's GF or GWF.
Honestly, I think either you only fight in a premande against HAMSTER equipped newbs, or just lying.
You can sepc a cleric for PvP survival, yes. GCTRL have shown this by regen/deflect/defense build.
However, even a tank build don't will help you, if your opponenst know what they do. You just need 2 classes capable of perma CC you .. and that's not very hard to find. Once you get chain CCed you will get assisted to death by tene enchant burst builds.
GWFs and even GFs are much more efficient if specced for PvP survival, because they have higher HP, can heal them self much better then a cleric (and they don't heal themself for 40% less) and can do burst damage by slotting tene in addition. And, more important, they have tools to resist CC which a cleric is seriously lacking.
So, in principle a cleric specced for tanking is a poor man's GF or GWF.
^^ - Why we get 40% reduction in healing is beyond me.. Why not take away 40% damage from GF or GWF since they can heal themselves better???
Unfortunately, xiphenon is right. DC can spec for pvp and get some survival chance, but he'll never be as good as GW or GWF with same quality gear. Plus not only doesnt he have cc resist, he doesnt have any cc (Sunburst only move opponents, not stun, no daze, nothing). And yes, righteousness makes no sense.
Never underestimate the DC's role in pvp mind games, If you can get the other team so focused on you as an "easy kill" they don't notice your team is in their base taking their flag. few people realize in the capture the flag sinario number of kills doesn't really get you much more than bragging rights. I've seen quite a few wins where the other team did all the top kills and DPS ratings. because they just ran around the center flag killing the cleric over and over,
Never underestimate the DC's role in pvp mind games, If you can get the other team so focused on you as an "easy kill" they don't notice your team is in their base taking their flag. few people realize in the capture the flag sinario number of kills doesn't really get you much more than bragging rights.
Unfortunately, kills get you points gets you score gets you more honor. I often carry my team to victory but get the lowest score of all team member because sacrifiy myself constantly dying in an assist train of 2-5 people don't give you any points.
What I've seen from the 30-39 PvP is this: Due to my inability to break cc as a DC, I look like popcorn popping in slow motion if the other team has 2 CW's. To survive longer and give out heals, would regeneration or defense gear aid me the most?
Comments
Are you talking about going against Pugs or premades? All of my experience in PvP so far has been agains Pugs and I'm on a Pug team, except one time. I face a premade in level 20-29 PvP and it was ugly for me. The enemy team had two CW's on me. After one was through with me, the second one would finish me off with their CC and DPS. It was actually beautiful to watch. If tanking gear would keep alive long enough to feel like my heals made a difference, I'd be happy. Again, I'm not talking about being a healbot.
no it is felt in PvE as well, People see a cleric and think that they don't need potions, even though potions are the best healing.
That just comes down to not being able to fix stupid. By lvl 60 most players should realize that potions are your lifeline if something goes horribly wrong very quickly and that a DC's ability to save them from imminent death is dependent on cooldown timers and power selection.
I view it more as it being a DC's role to reduce the party's tendency to chug potions by providing defensive support and intermittently pulling the bacon from the fire as needed with big heals like a Divinity-powered HW or BoH.
I will admit that something is wrong in that you really need great gear to perform the essential class functions. Heals without Vorpal = even less bursty.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Maybe because healing isn't primary? Clerics can and do heal but that is secondary to buffing/debuffing damage and stuff. I still see the vast majority of level 60 players thinking that clerics primary role is to heal so they don't need potions. So if you are anything but a healbot they complain.
Also the gold cost of potions and injury kits is kind of a moot point now that blues drop more frequently as well as greater ID scrolls (and are worth your while to grab ID and sell). Yet I see see players rage quit if they need to use more then the occasional potion....
Unfortunately, in NW clerics can neither buff nor debuff nor heal quite good.
There few buffs we have are mainly focus on damage reduction. Most of them (DA, HG) are daily powers which now can not be used frequently because of the AP nerf.
Lol no, they have tons of buffs that up defence, Foresight 11% Flat Dmg reduction, Astral Sheild 35% Flat Damage Reduction. Feated Basion of Health 10% Flat Dmg reduction to name a few. Trow a Daily on that and you have something like 70% Dmg reduction. They also have a couple of Defence debuffs and +Dmg modifiers.
Plus with only 3 encounters, we kinda need to semi-specialise: you can't debuff, buff, mitigate, deal damage and heal effectively all at the same time. It's 'pick one or two from the list', realistically.
If pugging, it's generally 'pick healing and mitigation'.
EDIT: to clarify, we have more potential utility at our disposal, but at the cost of being fairly HAMSTER at almost all of it (unless focussed & often feated). The other classes are slightly more simple: do damage (+tank/control, if GF/CW). We're kinda supposed to be filling in all the blanks, providing heals if necessary, damage buffs if necessary, mitigation if necessary, extra control if necessary, enemy debuffing if necessary, and so on, but because of the way the game is structured (and because cryptic doesn't seem to know quite what to do with the DC), this doesn't really work terribly well in practice.
even worse: i see teams dying the most having 2 healers while the others only have dps. they lower the dps of the team while they never can outheal the dps of the other team. that's why healers in the team are often just bad for the team itself. neverwinter is the first game i played where healers were so much useless in pvp and no one of your team tries to keep you alive. some gwf and gf can take the beating of 4 ppl without dying and without a healer supporting him, so why would they need a healer anyway?
or yesterday i was fighting a tr. he was basically dead, only some hitpoints remaining. i was at full health. he permanently stealthed, only blinking in for 1-2 seconds then stealthing again while dealing dmg when i could not see and target him. my damage output was too low to even kill him although he was almost dead anyway. i could not dish out much damage anyway because he permanently was stealthed and my heals could not even do anything against his dps. in the end i was dead and he lived. THAT is a healer in pvp in neverwinter - i have never seen anything close to that in any other mmo i played. healers in other mmos i played would have never died to a rogue that was almost dead anyway! and healers in other mmos i played would have never died to a tank either. in neverwinter you get perma-cc'ed by them. kick, knock-down, kick, kick, kick dead. happens often too me that i am cc'ed until i die. no chance to do a thing. can't click any button, can't dodge, basically i can wait and see how i die. that is fun i can tell you!
Summa summarum, sometimes I feel more like an anchor (in pve) than a real asset. And dont start with "with a good team...", good team could probably do it without me.
Honestly u are trolled thats y u kept complaining this class or that class, having decent gear and how u play change what u get. Good geared dc with gd skills don die even 2v1 or even 3. Its even tougher than a tank and do not need protection unless the whole opp team is on u, Is that what u call useless? Tank class can be replaced if thats what u meant. My tr with gd gear find it hard to kill a dc even its a 1v1. Healing is so much effective than dps moreover our cos get nerfed hard!
Also wh0 is absolutely right. In my healing gear it usually takes about 4 people to kill me in PVP but you have to play dirty. Stand behind the center pillar at the flag cap to line of sight their casts. Play ring around the Rosie when a melee class is trying to kill you. Time your slides to immune GF bulls (every GF always runs a bee line at you when they are gonna charge you) also can immune rogues power attacks by considering how far away they went stealth and save a second slide for follow up teleport attack.
Kite the other team like mobs and you'll be surprised how terrible people are at chasing you down. I've run from GG PVP flag 3 all the way to flag 1 with a TR, GF and GWF all trying to kill me. Outlasted them long enough to link up with a few buddies and they got smashed.
Or maybe you're just not very good at being a TR?
Seriously, TRs can crit for the tens of thousands. As far as I can tell, DCs (even with spectacular gear), don't have a single heal that can burst heal over 10k (even on a crit). Over time, yes, but that's because we're all about HoTs and mitigation, not burst healing. HoTs aren't much use if the first one or two hits kill you.
Damage at 60 scales far, far faster than healing. Our heals are calibrated for handling "lots of PvE monster damage", which is usually of the "lots of dudes doing lots of fairly small hits" variety, where mitigation and HoTs are (almost) adequate. PvP is all about "HIT HARD, as HARD AS POSSIBLE, IN AS FEW HITS AS POSSIBLE", and we don't have much that can deal with that.
Also, we spend an embarassing amount of time either flat on our arses or being force choked. :P
Yeah, DCs have tons off buffs that do add defense bonus. Unfortunately, if you understand at least some math, defense that don't add up, is always less effective.
Example:
You take 10000 damage. Foresight reduce the damage by 11% to 8900. Now Astral shield reduce the damage by 30% to 6230 damage, and your armor reduce the damage again by 30% 4361 damage. In total you have abilities that provide 71% of damage. However, since they don't add up, they provide effectively only ~ 67 %. To the more defense you stack, the higher the dimisching return. This is escpacially true for small defense bonus.
The main problem is, none of the uber cleric defense buffs deal any damage. They are quite limited in range. Beside Astral shield, HG and DA they are quite short (< 5 sec).
A class should not only make sense when you have the best gear and enchants on it that is available in the game. If you can't kill a DC with your TR then you should rather think about your TR not the DC. And in a PVP mode that is called "Domination" any tank class that can basically stay forever on a pad without dying is the much better choice than a DC that may only make a fight 5 seconds longer due to his heals.
Show me a class that has 40% less damage output against someone constantly! The DC has 40% less heals on himself! So the only valid reason to play a healer is to healer. They cut his damage, he has low protection and the only thing he would have to compensate that would be healing himself once he is focussed. But that isn't working because the low HoTs will be even lower if casted on myself.
Honestly, I think either you only fight in a premande against HAMSTER equipped newbs, or just lying.
You can sepc a cleric for PvP survival, yes. GCTRL have shown this by regen/deflect/defense build.
However, even a tank build don't will help you, if your opponenst know what they do. You just need 2 classes capable of perma CC you .. and that's not very hard to find. Once you get chain CCed you will get assisted to death by tene enchant burst builds.
GWFs and even GFs are much more efficient if specced for PvP survival, because they have higher HP, can heal them self much better then a cleric (and they don't heal themself for 40% less) and can do burst damage by slotting tene in addition. And, more important, they have tools to resist CC which a cleric is seriously lacking.
So, in principle a cleric specced for tanking is a poor man's GF or GWF.
^^ - Why we get 40% reduction in healing is beyond me.. Why not take away 40% damage from GF or GWF since they can heal themselves better???
Unfortunately, kills get you points gets you score gets you more honor. I often carry my team to victory but get the lowest score of all team member because sacrifiy myself constantly dying in an assist train of 2-5 people don't give you any points.