Stop Ruining the Games

maliangyion

Hello, I played 3 games of this company and all has the same destiny, RUIN.
Each time the "try" to balance skills or classes ppl start to quit. U must understand that the game has diff classes for a reason, is not a fashion thing.
Each class has diff skills and damage, ofc assasins has awesome damage, but the lack on AOE and other things, same with Tanker and Mages.
U can not pretend that all class has same or similar damage, that is BS.

wuhsin

maliangyion wrote: »

Hello, I played 3 games of this company and all has the same destiny, RUIN.
Each time the "try" to balance skills or classes ppl start to quit. U must understand that the game has diff classes for a reason, is not a fashion thing.
Each class has diff skills and damage, ofc assasins has awesome damage, but the lack on AOE and other things, same with Tanker and Mages.
U can not pretend that all class has same or similar damage, that is BS.

I agree with this, it's the main reason I hated GW2, they made all the classes virtually the same, whereas on the first one there was much more variety.

kantazo1

I really cannot understand the mentality of the developers behind these new idea of balances? Devs do you bother to listen?

metaplexus

kantazo1 wrote: »

I really cannot understand the mentality of the developers behind these new idea of balances? Devs do you bother to listen?

Have you read the forums at all?

maliangyion

snoophog wrote: »

can we just stop making these threads, its always the same 5 people doomsaying because they have nothing to do till FF14 comes out.

I dun care FF, im trying to play a game for long, not till "another game come out". Believe me, we are not 5 we are a lot like happened on the others games that will quit. PWE makes more games because ppl quit from them but seems they dun understand that ppl quit cos they ruined those games.
They need to work more on their games, trying to fix bugs and putting more events, instead of ruining it.

[Deleted User]

Yeah I've got to say that some of these upcoming changes are making me kind of nervous. I remember when CO was "balancing" and how many problems that caused. It was a constant back and forth, and they're still trying to fix it. I'm trying to get my friends to play this game again, but after reviewing the patch notes, I'm not sure they will. Also I agree about FF, the last good one was ten.

wuhsin

sockmunkey wrote: »

Another game, another complaint....how uncharacteristic.:rolleyes:

Believe it or not, there are plenty of games out there I never had any complaints about. Final Fantasy 7, 8, and 9 were epic. The first Final Fantasy was epic. All the Pokemon games I've played are epic, no complaints about any of them. I have absolutely zero complaints about the Elder Scrolls games I've played. None. Oh, right, those aren't MMO's, so maybe I just hate MMO's? Wait, I played Guild Wars 1 right up until Guild Wars 2 was released, and never once complained on its forum about anything in that game. Sure, it annoyed me when my near invincible builds got nerfed, but I was always able to come up with an equally effective if not better build within 24 hours due to how expansive the class system was in that game, so there was never a need for me to go to the forum to vent. On the flip side, I hated Guild Wars 2 for making all classes the same, and limiting our options so much. So your inference that I will complain about any game based on your limited experience with me on these forums is totally unfounded.

cribstaxxx

I am certainly not a doomsayer, and have denounced them time and time again, but I agree with OP. Stop nerfing classes, just stop. Balance in other ways than nerf nerf nerf. How about buff weaker classes? Or even buff PvE if that is the problem. Nerfing just makes those that spent a lot of effort on the class (especially if they only play that class) to lose interest. I like this game, I want to play it for a long time, but if you nerf nerf nerf at the rate you're going people will leave. Just look at the forum, every other post is "Stop with the nerfing"

You listened to players when the way over the top TR nerf was repealed, good job on that. Continue to listen please, and do something other than nerf. GWF's are going to be completely obsolete in PvE (they almost already are) if you continue with nerfs as stated. Please listen to the players again and rethink this Class ending nerf, Thanks.

cribstaxxx

How could you come to that conclusion unirod? If DC's were buffed I might actually play him again and then put money into him. If GWF were buffed I might actually use him in PvE and therefore need to get a new PvE set for him. If any class is buffed other classes have to compensate with better gear, so buffing 1 class makes 4 other classes need better gear, while nerfing 1 class makes that 1 class unhappy, so half stop playing and the other half buy better gear. Not that that's how things actually work but that is your logic.

Buffing classes make people happy, and continue playing, while nerfing does the opposite. No other class is going to say OMG you buffed DC I'm going to stop playing my GF now, that's dumb. Now if you blatantly overbuff a class and make them god in PvP then yes people will complain, but then all they have to do is "tweak their buff" instead of nerf the class, see how much better that sounds lol? It would simply make players happier with the game if they would stop nerfing classes at every turn, and so drastically too, they are nerfing every skill that I use on GWF. Both passives, main daily, and unstoppable.

kantazo1

cribstaxxx wrote: »

How could you come to that conclusion unirod? If DC's were buffed I might actually play him again and then put money into him. If GWF were buffed I might actually use him in PvE and therefore need to get a new PvE set for him. If any class is buffed other classes have to compensate with better gear, so buffing 1 class makes 4 other classes need better gear, while nerfing 1 class makes that 1 class unhappy, so half stop playing and the other half buy better gear. Not that that's how things actually work but that is your logic.

Buffing classes make people happy, and continue playing, while nerfing does the opposite. No other class is going to say OMG you buffed DC I'm going to stop playing my GF now, that's dumb. Now if you blatantly overbuff a class and make them god in PvP then yes people will complain, but then all they have to do is "tweak their buff" instead of nerf the class, see how much better that sounds lol? It would simply make players happier with the game if they would stop nerfing classes at every turn, and so drastically too, they are nerfing every skill that I use on GWF. Both passives, main daily, and unstoppable.

Instead of nerfing the classes they could have release new armor set and new weapons with best stats for those classes who were "under".

cribstaxxx

kantazo1 wrote: »

Instead of nerfing the classes they could have release new armor set and new weapons with best stats for those classes who were "under".

Yep, all kinds of great ways to balance other than "we're nerfing all aspects of your class".

kantazo1

You know it could have been very simple, just offer the changes for PVP only and leave PVE alone. Create PVP sets that have skills built in them to help against the difficulties of each class in PVP. But no, lets get the PVE crowd messed up as well.

ashlotte

kantazo1 wrote: »

You know it could have been very simple, just offer the changes for PVP only and leave PVE alone. Create PVP sets that have skills built in them to help against the difficulties of each class in PVP. But no, lets get the PVE crowd messed up as well.

We said the same thing in Guild Wars 2. Arenanet didn't listen. People left. End of story. Same will happen here.

People will still play, still spend unfathomable amounts of $ on lockboxes. Some individuals will still continue to buy Hero of the North so long as Drow are *NOT* released as free to play(you really don't expect them to release Drow anytime soon, do you? To add insult to injury to the "Heroes" I'd honestly expect to see them release a reskinned Drow spider mount... probably blue or royal purple. That alone is what's holding me back from buying HoTN myself unless there's confirmation).

They don't care how much we cry, complain, whine about it so long as it's PvE related.

fathomful

Lots of good points.

It truly is like the same 10 people bashing the game and the same 10 people defending it on the forums.

Save a bunch of bits and just agree to disagree lol.

Every time there is a change period everyone gets scared and rails against it etc, etc, etc. It is simply human nature to fear change.

Also people always think they know best, even when they dont really have a clue.

It is in Cryptics interest to make a good game. People think every change is some no thought knee jerk change. They cant accept the fact there is a long term plan in place and part of these changes probably work to bring that long term plan into fruition.

There are many instances in games where the power level of the game grows too fast and soon it is so unbalanced very drastic things must be done.

Exploiters (common in every game) accelerated the power curve artificially with so many items flooding the market. I am sure we are all a little guilty there. If you have campfire jumped skipped a boss, or something similar then you are partially to blame. (I have done so but finally realized the error and now i only play no exploits with a guild of common minded folk.)

I know people will say ugh... they didnt prevent us from doing it so its ok. That is a silly argument. Just because there is nobody preventing me from taking your things while you are at work doesnt mean its ok for me to do so. I do think they should have done a much better job of finding these things out before launch. Fail on their part big time.

So anyways with limited amount of money and time they are faced with the issue of power curve growing too fast, too much gear out there for cheap, end game gets trivialized due to everyone being BiS as long as they can earn/purchase 250k AD.

What do you do? Well you make the end game harder. You seal up exploits. You nerf power level of classes. You make gear harder to get. Let the game self correct and do better in the future.

Yes nobody likes to get nerfed and everyone is sooooo mad. If you care about the game though and put some thought into it you would realize that this has to occur. We can bicker over if its the best method of doing so, but i think we can all agree something had to be done.

So leave or stay up to you. I hope you stay and continue to play. However i do say we all stop playing armchair programmers, project analysts, business accountants though. It just makes us all look like kids playing like grown ups. Let the changes come as they may, experience them, then make a decision on whether this is the game for you.

Cheers!

wuhsin

cribstaxxx wrote: »

Yep, all kinds of great ways to balance other than "we're nerfing all aspects of your class".

Whatever happened to the Paper, Rock, Scissors effect? Why does rock have to be able to beat paper? Why does paper have to be able to beat scissors? Why does scissors have to be able to beat rock? In Guild Wars (the first one!) Dervishes were the bane of Elementalists that stacked enchantments, and Elementalists who nuked had to watch out for Mesmers with interrupts. Even so, I could beat either one of them in a 1v1 duel. Fairness is good and all, but I'd rather have some strategy in the game instead of going the route of Guild Wars 2. There isn't enough freedom to make your own builds in this game, I can't stand that, as it was one of my favorite things about Guild Wars, or Build Wars, as some people referred to it.

zahinder

You know, I have very few complaints about Star Trek: Online, particularly post-LoR.

I think Cryptic made an EXCELLENT f2p system that entices rather than gouges. Lots of things to do, lots of content, lots of different diverse activities.

Yeah, the PvP is mostly abandoned and Foundry has a lot of the same issues as NW Foundry, but... I have few complaints.

I have few complaints about GW2. I have a bunch of complaints about Secret World, but also a lot of praise. CO... ok, I complain bitterly about Champions Online, but that's because some of it is so much unrealized promise.


So, yeah. Every game gets complaints, but every complaint isn't equal.

spanky2014

For those saying don't nerf, but buff instead. That would work in a world where there is new content and harder stuff.
If everyone was "buffed" then content will be trivial and no challenge to play.

People tell me to do Epic DV if I want a challenge, but I have no incentive to do Epic DV even if it is the hardest epic of them all. Why? Because there is no reward factor in it. Give the Ancient weapons off the last boss, and I'll attempt it!!

I think the game honestly was ruined from the get go. When I hit 60, I could buy all my T1 gear so I never bothered to do any T1 dungeons as there is no reward for it. Till this day I still have not done a T1 dungeon. I bought the gear cause it was so cheap under 20k AD for most pieces. Spent a couple of weeks doing the T2 dungeons. I did them constantly to get my T2 gear, though I did buy the "cheap" pieces and farm for the unaffordable pieces such as helm/chest. Once I got my T2.. farmed CN to get my ancients.. farm some more to enchant my stuff... now I'm at a lost at what to do.... I love trading so I do that.. but what to do with all this wealth... waiting for the next instance...might keep be busy for 2 weeks....so yeah.... need new stuff!!

wuhsin

zahinder wrote: »

You know, I have very few complaints about Star Trek: Online, particularly post-LoR.

I think Cryptic made an EXCELLENT f2p system that entices rather than gouges. Lots of things to do, lots of content, lots of different diverse activities.

Yeah, the PvP is mostly abandoned and Foundry has a lot of the same issues as NW Foundry, but... I have few complaints.

I have few complaints about GW2. I have a bunch of complaints about Secret World, but also a lot of praise. CO... ok, I complain bitterly about Champions Online, but that's because some of it is so much unrealized promise.


So, yeah. Every game gets complaints, but every complaint isn't equal.

Unrealized promise would be my issue with this game too. The class system in this game is an abomination to all RPG's, totally not D&D at all. Rather than work on new class builds, they'd be better off scrapping the whole game, and going offline for another year to create a class system that "clicks" with D&D players. We want our characters to feel unique, and that's not going to happen when we're all using the same five builds, with very limited choices when it comes to optimal gear. Maybe a mount or companion helps a little, but where the Hell are the wizards that use Scorching Burst or Acid Arrow? Why do we only have ice wizards? I know the game's called Neverwinter and all, but wizard players kind of like to use different types of spells that reflect their personality. My friend can't play his wizard character in this game because of the restrictive build system, and he can't play his Drow Archer Ranger character either as of now. The class system just feels lazy, and at the current rate they're working it would be over a decade before they flushed out all the character builds from just Player's Handbook 1. By the time they release the Archer Ranger and Drow class, ESO will be out, and I can guarantee my friend would rather play that than run dungeons and Foundry missions in this with me.

That's just the problems I've had with this game from day one. I've also had my class nerfed more times than any other class. Then we had rampant exploits taking over the Foundry which I got permabanned for campaigning to get taken down. I got the ban lifted, and the exploits finally got taken down a couple of months later after they started to make the best list, and Zovya got mad enough about it to post a thread about it. So, that issue got resolved, and I was almost ready to give this game another shot. Then recently we got wind of nerfs across the board for everyone, and the profanity filter for Foundry missions was modified to include such mundane words as Master, John, and Child, ruining at least 80% of Foundry missions, and causing many, many Foundry authors to just outright quit. And some people dare to say our complaints aren't justified...

Sorry for rambling on like that, everyone. I got carried away. I'm fixin' to go to town. Carry on.

cribstaxxx

spanky2014 wrote: »

For those saying don't nerf, but buff instead. That would work in a world where there is new content and harder stuff.
If everyone was "buffed" then content will be trivial and no challenge to play.

People tell me to do Epic DV if I want a challenge, but I have no incentive to do Epic DV even if it is the hardest epic of them all. Why? Because there is no reward factor in it. Give the Ancient weapons off the last boss, and I'll attempt it!!

In my post I said buff the CONTENT rather than nerf the player, if it is a PvE issue. If a boss is insanely easy b/c TR's do a lot of single target damage (That is their only role and they should) why nerf the TR? Just buff the boss and give it some mechanics that have to be dodged to slow down DPS. Don't just nerf nerf nerf TR. Insert any class I just used TR in this example.

For instance new content I hear (I don't personally play on test realm but I have heard from those that do) is going to require killing adds rather than bumping them over the ledge, therefore a GWF will be an acceptable addition to a 5 man group. Except that now GWF can't survive when they run in and do their big aoe damage, so b/c of nerf the new content that may have made them useful in PvE still leaves them worthless b/c they can't survive the threat they generate.

seisem2

cribstaxxx wrote: »

In my post I said buff the CONTENT rather than nerf the player, if it is a PvE issue. If a boss is insanely easy b/c TR's do a lot of single target damage (That is their only role and they should) why nerf the TR? Just buff the boss and give it some mechanics that have to be dodged to slow down DPS. Don't just nerf nerf nerf TR. Insert any class I just used TR in this example.

For instance new content I hear (I don't personally play on test realm but I have heard from those that do) is going to require killing adds rather than bumping them over the ledge, therefore a GWF will be an acceptable addition to a 5 man group. Except that now GWF can't survive when they run in and do their big aoe damage, so b/c of nerf the new content that may have made them useful in PvE still leaves them worthless b/c they can't survive the threat they generate.

LOL at the part I put in bold. You really haven't played with a decent GF + GWF in the same party have you? Our main tank can hold all the aggro, out dps most of the group, and my GWF does insane damage and almost never dies.

GWF are FAR from worthless in groups.

cribstaxxx

seisem2 wrote: »

LOL at the part I put in bold. You really haven't played with a decent GF + GWF in the same party have you? Our main tank can hold all the aggro, out dps most of the group, and my GWF does insane damage and almost never dies.

GWF are FAR from worthless in groups.

LOL at the GF + GWF part...

There is not room in a good party for a GF and a GWF currently. Most CN groups take 2 CW's 1 TR 1 DC and random (usually another CW as of recently) T2's need either 2 TR's for boss damage or 2 CW's for adds. There is currently no instance that is faster with GWF + GF than with a better team comp with more CW's or TR's, there just isn't. Malabog may bring about a situation where GWF is useful for adds, but taking both GWF and GF will drop boss damage by quite a bit.

Of course GWF can deal a lot of damage as damage spec if GF is holding all agro, but realistically one half of 1 percent of groups include both. Best case scenario they contain neither for most instances...

Long story short GWF needs to fill its off-tank role even as a DPS spec. With the upcoming nerfs that isn't going to happen. If you want to run T2's with GF + GWF and post all kinds of damage meters with you on top have fun, I'm happy for you. But when your clear time is 45 minutes for spider cause you killed all the adds, don't complain about exploits cause I can do it in 15 with 2 TR's 2 CW's.

Lol and don't even get me started on CN. Going to CN with both GF and GWF is like going to a Nascar race with a Toyota Prius

cribstaxxx

kantazo1 wrote: »

A Prius? Where I am from if you mention that word all my redneck friends will BBQ you inside the Prius. LOL

Exactly, this guy needs BBQ'd =P

BTW I have a GWF and have tried sent pve, destroyer pve, destroyer pvp, and sent pvp. The only build that had any merit is sent pvp, and its all tankiness and very little damage. And yes I had avatar 2/4 vigilant 2/4 met caps on recovery/crit/arp it just simply isn't as good as other classes. I have 60 TR, CW, GF, GWF and GWF just doesn't have a valid role in PvE right now, he can be replaced by other classes that are more effective given the situation

seisem2

cribstaxxx wrote: »

LOL at the GF + GWF part...

There is not room in a good party for a GF and a GWF currently. Most CN groups take 2 CW's 1 TR 1 DC and random (usually another CW as of recently) T2's need either 2 TR's for boss damage or 2 CW's for adds. There is currently no instance that is faster with GWF + GF than with a better team comp with more CW's or TR's, there just isn't. Malabog may bring about a situation where GWF is useful for adds, but taking both GWF and GF will drop boss damage by quite a bit.

Of course GWF can deal a lot of damage as damage spec if GF is holding all agro, but realistically one half of 1 percent of groups include both. Best case scenario they contain neither for most instances...

Long story short GWF needs to fill its off-tank role even as a DPS spec. With the upcoming nerfs that isn't going to happen. If you want to run T2's with GF + GWF and post all kinds of damage meters with you on top have fun, I'm happy for you. But when your clear time is 45 minutes for spider cause you killed all the adds, don't complain about exploits cause I can do it in 15 with 2 TR's 2 CW's.

Lol and don't even get me started on CN. Going to CN with both GF and GWF is like going to a Nascar race with a Toyota Prius

I guess you just haven't played with good players. My guild has and continues to play with 1 GF, 1 TR, 1 GWF, 1 CW and 1 DC for all instances... and have cleared everything. We have subbed out the GWF when I have had to play my healer and brought another CW and the DPS drops tremendously and the run goes a lot slower. We can mow mobs down faster than you can group them up and chuck them off the edge.

You just don't understand the type of damage that a well played GF can do. I've only seen two of them on the whole server, a guy named Dorn who quit and our current tank Dut. Both are able to out dps literally everybody except for the GWF I have. We have added people in parties, pugged extra players sometimes, etc, but nobody can compare to his dps. My GWF is the same way. Bringing another CW does not make the DPS go higher, it actually lowers it.

We also are playing legit. No cheats, no shortcuts, no campfire runs, no exploiting bosses, none of that.

seisem2

cribstaxxx wrote: »

Exactly, this guy needs BBQ'd =P

BTW I have a GWF and have tried sent pve, destroyer pve, destroyer pvp, and sent pvp. The only build that had any merit is sent pvp, and its all tankiness and very little damage. And yes I had avatar 2/4 vigilant 2/4 met caps on recovery/crit/arp it just simply isn't as good as other classes. I have 60 TR, CW, GF, GWF and GWF just doesn't have a valid role in PvE right now, he can be replaced by other classes that are more effective given the situation

I guess you just aren't playing the class right. I have a full destroyer spec build with the same 2 set pieces along with ancients rings etc and can out dps almost any person in my party at equal gear level -- and I still don't even have my weapon enchanted yet.

If you want to PM me we can go over feats/build/etc.

cribstaxxx

giant Lol at "I can kill the mobs quicker than you can toss them over the ledge". So you can kill 20 mobs in 3 seconds when your powers have a target cap of 5? You're funny.

Edit: I seriously want to know what you do in FH if you have a GF to tank mobs? Lol GWF on boss over a TR?

seisem2

cribstaxxx wrote: »

giant Lol at "I can kill the mobs quicker than you can toss them over the ledge". So you can kill 20 mobs in 3 seconds when your powers have a target cap of 5? You're funny.

Edit: I seriously want to know what you do in FH if you have a GF to tank mobs? Lol GWF on boss over a TR?

Well your 3 seconds doesn't include gathering the mobs up to push them over. There are certain times where people can push mobs over... not just a CW but Clerics can use Sunburst, I can use Roar/Knockdown, etc.

We play all night and I am talking from experience. No pugs, straight private guild runs. The experience is a lot different when you play with the same group every night.

melodywhr

well... see... the expectation and the delivery may not be the same, but you have to understand that the powers/feat combinations with the additions of enhancements have thousands of combinations and usually what happens is when a combination is discovered that gives a slight (or huge) advantage over other classes or pve content... then they have to figure out why and fix it. and sometimes those things are hit and miss. it's easy for us gamers out here to sit here looking at our nerfed characters and complain about it because all we are looking at is our class and how it's been nerftified. but we're not necessarily looking at the bigger picture. and we don't have the ability to see everything that is in consideration when these changes are suggested and/or made. while a company like this is grateful to get feedback about their product and/or services, ultimately the final decision concerning changes are made without any player consultation. and i'm sure they understand the pain threshold you may be feeling but the last time there were class balance changes, pwe gave everyone respec tokens. and they may opt to do that again. if the company didn't care, would they even bother with respec tokens?

seisem2

Our main tank even said he is going to start making some videos and I will probably have to do the same, just to show people that if you play your class effectively -- anything is possible.

fathomful

I have found many times when i post that people get way different mileage out of same runs even with same gear/spec/playstyle simply because of the party comp.

I know that i laugh at how easy my runs are sometimes and other people scream about how impossible dungeons are. Only difference Guild run vs PUG run.

I know not all people like the social guild experience, but man i would never go back to Pugging all the time. Got me a great big huge guild that is purely no exploit. It takes the game and X10's it.

cribstaxxx

Roar moves mobs like 3 inches, I tried it on my GWF a bunch of times, just doesn't work unless CW nicely stacks them all right on the edge with one foot over already. A good CW can drop a singu, use tabbed EF at the 1.5-2 second mark, pop shield at the 3 second mark, kill all adds AND have full AP bar for the next group. GWF needs either GF to hold agro, b/c their survivability as DPS spec is too low or they need CW to group up and CC mobs for them. The class needs to stand on it's own merit, I'm not just trying to bash GWF's here, I'm saying this nerf is way over the top and stupid, and they need a more defined role in the group.

I'm not saying that you can't clear everything, All content can be done with 1 of each class I get that. It is simply fact that given equally geared characters other team compositions (notably those without GWF's and sometimes GF's) can clear dungeons faster. I have completed CN twice as the only CW, it sucks, so much easier with 2, no reason to go without 2. FH - GWF can go as main tank, but with GWF AND GF, the GWF is simply worthless, less than worthless b/c the TR that does 4x his single target damage could be in his spot. Karru so much easier by exploiting first 2 bosses, IE only ranged classes attack them, which makes GWF useless... I could go on.

Currently they have no defined team role. So they will continue to be confined to guild runs until they have more to bring to the table.

rortie

wuhsin wrote: »

I agree with this, it's the main reason I hated GW2, they made all the classes virtually the same, whereas on the first one there was much more variety.

Same here.