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Stalwart Bulwark - Set Bonus Recommendation
dkcandy
Member Posts: 1,555 Bounty Hunter
Stalwart Bulwark Set Bonus Recommendation:
With the recent patch notes stating the rework of the Guardian Fighter T1 Stalwart Bulwark set bonus changing to a new mechanic has caused a lot of uproar. We can all agree that the Stalwart Bulwark set bonus needed a nerf as the bonus from the set works to well with HP stacking builds. (Example my HP Regeneration tank build or DPS build reaching upwards of nearly 15k power.)
Changing the set mechanic and reworking how the set bonus works on the other hand is essentially changing the set to a new set. It's not nerfing an existing set bonus as it is replacing an existing set and giving players a new set. It would be no different if you just purchased a Lamborghini and a few months later the manufacturer says there is a recall and we will be giving you a replacement and delivers you a ford focus. Now the focus is still a car but it's no Lambo!
Many of us players have worked hard to get our Stalwart sets and tuned our characters around the set and the mechanic that stacking health gives us power. One solution players have asked for is to get a free unsocket which I could agree with but it doesn't correct the issue with the change in mechanic.
What I'm suggesting is you nerf the set bonus and keep the mechanic. Examples:
1. Reduce the % from 5% to 2-3% per stack. For a total gain of 10% or 15% with 5 stacks.
or
2. Remove the stacking all together and give a flat 7-10% of max health as power.
Both of these nerfs would still keep the set mechanic the same and not completely break players builds around the set mechanic. Also the power gain would keep inline with what other sets are offering players.
Thanks for your time.
With the recent patch notes stating the rework of the Guardian Fighter T1 Stalwart Bulwark set bonus changing to a new mechanic has caused a lot of uproar. We can all agree that the Stalwart Bulwark set bonus needed a nerf as the bonus from the set works to well with HP stacking builds. (Example my HP Regeneration tank build or DPS build reaching upwards of nearly 15k power.)
Changing the set mechanic and reworking how the set bonus works on the other hand is essentially changing the set to a new set. It's not nerfing an existing set bonus as it is replacing an existing set and giving players a new set. It would be no different if you just purchased a Lamborghini and a few months later the manufacturer says there is a recall and we will be giving you a replacement and delivers you a ford focus. Now the focus is still a car but it's no Lambo!
Many of us players have worked hard to get our Stalwart sets and tuned our characters around the set and the mechanic that stacking health gives us power. One solution players have asked for is to get a free unsocket which I could agree with but it doesn't correct the issue with the change in mechanic.
What I'm suggesting is you nerf the set bonus and keep the mechanic. Examples:
1. Reduce the % from 5% to 2-3% per stack. For a total gain of 10% or 15% with 5 stacks.
or
2. Remove the stacking all together and give a flat 7-10% of max health as power.
Both of these nerfs would still keep the set mechanic the same and not completely break players builds around the set mechanic. Also the power gain would keep inline with what other sets are offering players.
Thanks for your time.
Post edited by dkcandy on
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However, it should have been done earlier - during Beta, not after a lot of people had spent a lot of time and/or ADs in getting the set.
Anyhow, I expect the price of the Grand Regent set pieces will go up as a result, as that is now probably the best set for a tank-focused GF.
Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor.
~Sholom Aleichem
Why is it so hard to believe that Cryptic is overhauling the Gf T1 Set? Is it really that hard to believe that Developers can, and most often times do make Huge balancing/reworks of the game? Every MMO company on the market goes through these balancing acts and every time a company starts messing around you always end up with those vocal players who are displeased with the changes being made.
I've spent to date $289.00 on this game, all for my idea of what's fun. I don't expect Cryptic to start reimbursing me money for items I've lost or are going to lose. It's part of the nature of playing an MMO, things change All the time, and it's something every player agrees to live with when clicking accept to the terms of service.
Sometimes Developers can be persuaded to revert certain changes, (IF) those changes are deemed to draconic and will end up hurting a particular class more than doing good. In the case of the the changes being made to the Gf T1 set, those changes are needed to bring that set of armor in line with other T1 armor sets.
Yes, it sucks to know that you may be out real money with these changes to the armor set, but that's something you agreed to deal with when clicking accept on the tos. If you ever played any MMO before, you also understand changes always happen and you very well could be out Money when those changes occur.
Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor.
~Sholom Aleichem
You take a big risk spending that amount of time and money playing a game. The benefit you gain is burning through content that the average gamer has not got to yet. Means you can make a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton more AD selling the gear that many cannot farm for yet. So there are trade offs. Big risk mean big potential reward. Crying over an OP'd set bonus after being able to benefit from it for this long is rather pathetic. If it pains you so much please... Please... PLEASE stop playing MMO's. You will forever be aggravated by them because that is the nature of the game style. Things change... Often... Learn to deal.
I'd get like 990 power, if I were to use Grand Regent. I have a huge chunk of defense, too.
No... If this nerf goes through, then I'm getting 2 parts Grand Regent and 2 parts High General. 450 armor pen is going to do much more than 990 power.
No, that's not a good analogy either. This is more than a cosmetic issue. The new Stalwart's bonus is substantially weaker, with less of a damage bonus, that requires 10 blocks... leaving a GF in a weakened state with a depleted guard meter. So it's not just a trim issue.
A better analogy would be if you took that turbocharged Lamborghini, ripped out the engine, and put in a 4 cylinder. Car looks the same, but sure won't have any of the performance...
we understand this kind of situations, but the thing here is alot of ppl have invested real money. to make us feel less frustrated, give us a refund or atleast return the AD's that have been used for gearing this set. so we can change gear. im so
I can honestly say I would NEVER consider using this set with this new bonus. It is simply too weak. I have to build up stacks blocking and then lose all of my stacks after a single attack? The bonus isn't so great it's worth that risk to lose stacks on play error.
Furthermore this was a conqueror's set based on how it was made. This was the best set by far for conquerors and to make it rely on block makes this the worst set for conquerors.
Players need to, at the very least, be given the ability to remove enchantments from those items free of charge whether or not the set bonus is improved.
As for DKCandy's suggested changes to the set I really don't think you considered just how overpowered this set effect truly was. That set was supposed to be the Tier 1 version of Grand Regent but because the effect is based on HP rather than defense it allows for much, much greater results.
You might be able to stack up to 8K or so defense before just about capping out on possible stacking (and absolutely passed Diminishing Returns) so this would cap the grand regent's bonus at 1600 defense.
Alternatively here's what the caps would be for the Stalwart Bulwark based on keeping the same bonus:
Stalwart
Bulwark
4 PC.
Set
Bonus
Possibilities
HP
1%
3%
5%
7%
10%
15%
20,000
200
600
1,000
1,400
2,000
3,000
25,000
250
750
1,250
1,750
2,500
3,750
30,000
300
900
1,500
2,100
3,000
4,500
35,000
350
1,050
1,750
2,450
3,500
5,250
Considering it will be next to impossible to find a 20K HP GF the balance should be aimed between 25-30K HP. Further Considering 8K Defense would be the obscenely high defense player I think we're looking more for a 6K Defense player, giving us a target of 1,200 bonus.
This ultimately means that 5-7% is the utmost maximum, in my opinion, that the Stalwart Set should benefit players. Stacking HP past 30K HP will still make this set far superior to the Grand Regent's Permanent Bonus (especially considering the Conqueror's passive) and is extremely easy to do but the numbers clearly show that 10% is still far, far better than the set should give considering it should be on par but not superior to Grand Regent.
Let's make a comparison. Many sets have a 4 piece bonus like "n% chance to grant (allies or yourself) x (stat y) for 4-6s. Cannot happen more than once every 45-60s". Most of the times, unless it's a tanking stat, x is never superior to 1000. And most of the times, it's around 450. So, a T1 armor set bonus should never grant more than 400 power. I think that's what it does now, and it's fine.
It would be fine to change it to stack with your power - want be offensive, then stack offensive stats and not defensive ones!
Thanks for the write up, good info. Also note that the Conqueror's Reckless feat does not work on Buffs. All set bonuses are buffs and so is a pet and why the feat does not double the power gained.
Stalwarts Bulwark bonus is amazing as it does give a huge amount of power. What I don't understand is why change the set bonus 3+ months after release just before the first expansion? This set bonus has been like this since BETA and always been considered one of the best set bonuses.
The main issue with the STAL set is you needed to have an Augment pet to really make the set shine and Rank 8+ enchants on your pet with very rare items. My pet gives me CRT & ARP softcaps and the ability to stack power on my main character to push up to 14.8k power. Even with a defensive build I'm 11.5k power.
Right now I have a couple of replacement builds I used prior to switching to my current REGEN build.
Timeless - Around 10k Power with 20%(25% /w timeless buff) CRT / 24% ArP
Knights Cap - Around 8k Power with 20% CRT / 24% ArP
Blue Set - About 11k Power 20% CRT / 24% ArP
All 3 of these sets can tank all existing content and push out amazing damage beyond that of STAL.
Also 9 strength is equal to about 2500 power. So by switching back to my human, tie or orc I'm able to gain about 2500 power at the cost of CON and go a STR/DEX build which does superior damage than STAL and still tank all content.
The issue is not the nerf to the set but the COST to unsocket and regear/tune our characters to a new set of gear to get optimal stats for the new set. The last time I had to switch my gear/enchants from my Human to my current Halfling it cost me over 8Million AD which cost me $200 in ZEN.
They need to give "ALL" Guardian Fighters free unsockets or just NERF the set down to 7-10% power gained. Sure the set will do less damage but it's still built around the same mechanic and also a NERF and not a new set bonus.
Persoanlly I went protector. The difference in PvE is quite noticeable compared to a Conqueror.
I think there's actually some middle ground to be reach here. You're right some of the other sets, especially on the conqueror build, would still be more than viable. The Grand Regent is awesome. It gives so much defense it's truly my favorite set because it is next to impossible to bring me down. However the set effect should be increased to 25-30% minimum and at that point the Stalwart Bulwark could remain around 10% and still be balanced to the Grand Regent IMO.
But no matter what any change on this magnitude should have some forgiveness compensation. This is no trivial amount of AD to take enchantments out of gear let alone the cost for that gear and the cost for a new set. I don't know why it took them three months to decide to change the set but it was needed. But that's no big deal to me as long as they give players the proper compensation for their loss which, IMO, can't all be put on the players for playing the game they were given.
i herr i agree with you, and also to add that why they did not mention after the beta that they were going to do a rework on the set???? so everybody would be aware that at some point woul be nerfed and so you can invest on youe own risk is ridiculous
As time goes on things become more and more apparant. Aspects which becomes mainstream aren't always mainstream just because they are good but because they are too much better than other options that the other options aren't considered.
Stalwart Bulwark is one of those issues which was made increasingly clearer in time as it dominated the mainstream Guardian Fighters that focussed on both offensive and defensive builds. It wasn't merely builds like DKCandy's, which I had the horrible experience of going up against, which caused the problem. If it was just one build I think they would have simply readjusted something else.
You can say they should have seen that from the start. I'm not going to go there because it doesn't matter.
All that matters is it became clear it was far overpowered and no amount of blame will justify not changing it. This change could have happened a month ago and the same complaints would have been made. At some point it would have to happen whether it is now, a month ago or six months from now. So I really don't see any point in complaining it wasn't done sooner or later.
Excellent assessment and both very reasonable alternatives. Here is another alternative:
3. Change Stalwart Bulwark to a T2 set. Limit the max number of stacks at 3.
That way it would still have a buildup but never get too powerful. People like the way the set works and looks, and it would still be competitive if it only stacked 3 times.
I knew the set would be eventually be nerfed and thought it would be something like I have posted as that makes sense. To leave a set's mechanic the same but nerf the output of the set down to a reasonable amount like 7-10% vs. 25% which is very unbalanced from the other set bonuses.
Also once the fay patch hits and if the rework does get pushed thru, I will rewrite my guide and post up my new builds for players to test out which one's they prefer.
It's not completely different, as the bonus is what made the set. Changing the bonus changed the value of the set, just as changing a Lamborghini to a Ford Focus is one of substantive change.
Your comparison would have been accurate if they changed the colour of the Stalwart Bulwark to fuchsia and gave it a sparkling unicorn aura, which is a change of appearance rather than substance.
1.make it up to 5 max stack 100 necrotic damage / stack 500 damage if max (current stalwart gives 800+ damage with max stack)
2.add stacks even without blocking (blocking wont last during boss fights)
3.make the buffs work like current stalwart wont disappear if used (reworked version only hit 1 mob then disappear very useless isnt it?)
If you play a Guardian Fighter and you want to max out your PvE DPS the nerf to the Stalwart Set would require you to delete your current character (most likely Tiefling) and start a new one (most likely Half-Orc) and then roll the stats that now are superior to CON (STR/DEX). The effect of this of course is that you have to spent around 1.5 million AD if you want to get yourself a Timeless Set, you have to spent 0.8m for the Ioun Stone, you have to get yourself another CN weapon set and get a new Greater Plaguefire enchant for it, as the other is of course bound on your old character. Talking about enchants, you need a whole new set of enchants (hopefully you didnt have rank 9 or 10s)... and of course rings, neck, waist...
The problem of the Nerf of the Stalwart Set as it is planned is the change to the mechanic. Cryptic should NEVER change the benefit you gain from ability score points, when there is no way to change your initial roll and race choice. The only option players have to change these is to delete the character and start the new one and as all equipment items are bound on equip you would have to reobtain everything. Many players see equipment as a form of achievement, thus making players have to reobtain their equipment equals losing these achievements.
Also, this nerf is being done in what is called a "Live" game, not in a beta phase. Not only will your achievements be lost, but you cannot be certain about what will come next. 90% of the GF's I know of will switch to Timeless Hero set. Besides feeling bad about having the wrong race and the wrong initial ability score roll to max DPS with the Timeless set, you also need to fear Cryptic nerfing the Timeless set. If sets get nerfed to dead in a live game how can you be sure that in a month or so there won't be the next nerf news ("As 90% of the Guardian Fighter's were using the Timeless hero set we reworked the four pierce bonus: You now get +10% Running Speed for 4 seconds when your Guard Meter runs out!")
What many people suggested in this thread was changing the Stalwart Bulwark to a T2 Set and decreasing it's bonus while keeping the mechanic. The argument ambisinisterr hold in favor of the decision was the fact that an increase in power equal to 25% of your HP is simply to much. GF's with a Max HP of 28k (should be an average number) get 7000 power from the set bonus, which is too much. I agree with that, but the math you did, that the set bonus would have to be 5% max to be balanced is incorrect. As a Guardian Fighter with the Conqueror last feat stacking Power is very easy. An increase of 7000 power DOES NOT equal 7000 power points on gear, but an increase of 3500 equipment power points (as the Conqueror feat does not increase the power you get from the set bonus).
What do other classes get from their T2 set bonusses? Trickster Rogues get 1023 Power and Recovery from Swashbuckling Captain. The Great Weapon Fighters get 1260 Power and Recovery from Avatar of War. Thats 2046 and 2520 stat points compared to the 3500 stat points the Conqueror Guardian Fighters get. Additionally Swashbuckling and Avatar of War offer an offensive 2 piece bonus that Stalwart was lacking of course. Still it is not too far from balanced and I will explain why.
Many theorycrafters say that Power suffers no Diminishing Returns. But that is not fully correct. Just like you need more and more CRIT to increase your CRIT chance by 1% you also DO NEED MORE AND MORE POWER to increase your damage by 1%. That being said a boost to a single stat like the Stalwart's 4-piece bonus did offer ON A CLASS THAT ALREADY HAS A VERY HIGH AMOUNT OF THAT STAT (like Conqueror GF's do!) will suffer very hard from Dimishing Returns. Also there will be many occasions where the set bonus will not be even up with 5 stacks, most notably pvp.
In my opinion the suggestion of making the set a T2 (switching it with Grand Regent) and reducing it's set bonus is fine. For example the set bonus could be "Adds 1.5% of your Maximum HP in power. Stacks 6 times. This bonus is affected by Reckless Attacker." The set bonus would then add 9% of Max HP when it reaches maximum stacks. If you have 28k Life this would equal 2520 Power, which is fair compared to the 2460 points Avatar of War gives concerning you suffer way more Diminishing Returns, as its a bonus to a single stat rather than two stats and that you have no offensive 2 piece bonus. Also the Defense and Deflection stats on Stalwart should be reduced by ~10-20% to reduce its defensive effectiveness. I very much agree with the point that a set should not be the best defensive and offensive set at the same time, but decreasing the bonus to 9%, while also increasing the stack number making it a bit harder to maintain the bonus and while lowering the defensive attributes of the set a little bit, making the maintaining of the bonus (getting hit by mobs or players) harder (as you lose more HP) seems fine to me. Also making the bonus stack with the Conqueror feat would make the Set still a good choice for Conqueror GF's, while not being OP on Defensive GF's. The real problem of the Stalwart Set: Offering the BEST on the offensive AND defensive side would be gone. You can no longer make a defensive feated GF and get the full offensive out of the set. Also the set would not offer a better bonus than the other melee classes T2 sets, making it not only balanced within the class itself but also balanced compared to other classes.
Edit: What I want to add is that there is no valid reason why a T1 Set should not be changed to a T2. The argument that T2 is harder to obtain is simply invalid. From open beta on the T2 instances had all kinds of glitches that were farmed by so many people getting the T2 equipment into the Auction House at very cheap prices. Before the Mad Dragon's big spawn was changed recently the Tier 1 Helm was the hardest item to obtain, thus making collecting the full T1 set harder than completing the full T2.
The folks who suggested this change are the same folks that are okay with a Tier 1 set having an over-budget set bonus that makes every Tier 2 set look weaker, and costs half the price/less than half the effort to obtain than Tier 2. That's exactly why it should be nerfed, is going to be nerfed and should remain nerfed.
Having reckless attacker affect the set bonus change you suggested, bratz, just means there is still no reason to ever spec anything but conqueror. Defensive feated GF's are trash compared to offensive feated GF's, because none of the content requires more mitigation than what an offensive build already has. The set would still offer the best offensive and defense, contrary to what you claim.
STAL just needs to have the % reduced a lot and Grand R. buffed.
Grand R - Should be buffed till it gives around 2500 Power (100 Weapon Damage) at 4k Defense - This means players that chose to stack defense gain a small bonus to power.
STAL - reduce the % gained to be 2500 power (100 Weapon Damage) at 30k Health - This means players that decide to stack health will gain a small bonus to power.
This would balance both sets and give players a choice of stacking HP or Defense while giving a decent damage boost for tanks.
As long as that "decent damage boost for tanks" doesn't out-DPS the Tier 2 DPS set (Timeless Hero), which sacrifices defense for offense. That's the current problem, and the current solutions that people are suggesting lean towards making the Stalwart set plus set bonus equal to the Timeless set and bonus in DPS, but also keeping Stalwart's superior defensive stats. This would continue the problem of a Tier 1 set being overall superior to a Tier 2 set for both defense and offense, while being both easier and cheaper to obtain. I have a problem with that.
I'm fine with people opting for Tier 1 over Tier 2 for a particular build that favors a certain set bonus, or enjoyment of a particular set bonus, at the cost of superior base stats.
I am not fine with a Tier 1 offensive set doing superior DPS to a Tier 2 offensive set.
I am not fine with a Tier 1 defensive set providing superior defense to a Tier 2 defensive set.
I am REALLY not fine with a single Tier 1 set providing both better offense and better defense than Tier 2 sets, eliminating a meaningful choice.
Knights Cap is better than timeless hands down because of the 4pc bonus and you can do nearly the same damage as timeless on yourself.
2/2 Knight Cap / High General (850 ArP) build does more damage than timeless
Blue/Epic Set - Can do more damage than timeless
Timeless 4pc is really bad and gives very little damage increase.
But on the PVE side of things, it sounds like Timeless should get a buff if all those Tier 1 sets are out-DPSing it in PVE, no? Why should those tier 1 sets do superior DPS than the designed Tier 2 DPS set?
Why should Stalwart's do both better DPS and have better tanking stats? Why should any Tier 1 set provide better offense and defense than a Tier 2 set? If all the Tier 2 sets are undesirable because they aren't any more effective than Tier 1 sets, then the Tier 2 sets should be buffed and/or the Tier 1 sets nerfed.