First, you run away as best you can and use abilities like Icy Terrain, Steal Time, and Shield that don't require targeting.
Second, you have teammates for a reason. These aren't duels and PvP is a team sport. Communicate and work together.
Third, if you're doing the first and second steps then you should already know the third - hit them as hard as you can as soon as your teammates make it possible, but until them go after other targets.
Tell me o wise one how to dodge and kill two stealth rogues that stalk you the whole match. Thats how usually i end up. Dont bring up singularity, you cant have it ready every time you really need it.
Perma stealth is the only build that bothers me in TR. I had a TR once that reentered cloak 5-7 seconds after his full stealth rotation was done, i managed to land two skills and loop began again. That is simply broken. And the longer i play the more i believe that support classes will never be decent at PvP. If you want to shred people choose one from golden triangle, TR, GWF, GF.
well, if you have 2 rogues chasing you i gotta admit you are in a bad spot, but that would apply to 2 CWs/GWFs/GFs too, not so sure about 2 DCs but oh well... that doesnt really bring the feel that the class is OP, but rather that you are getting ganged and that is the problem. 2V1s hardly ends well for the minority side.
Alo, if you managed to see a rogue and land 2 skills, then you only didnt kill him because you landed the wrong skills. Usually a CW that manages to get his hands around a rogue's throat isnt exactly gonna drop him untill he is dead, so my assumption is that you arent really using the right rotation.
Your class also have loads (at least way more than any other class) of aoe skills that dont really require target to be effective, and they usually are the key to draining the stealthbar from rogues, specially if you are contesting a point with him, because in order for the rogue to be contesting that point, he will be in a very limited circular area and deducing his location isnt particularly hard (not to mention you have 3 dodges against his CoS to pin down the damage and leave him harmless untill some time has passed and he recovered the charges), and lets not forget that if he is turning you into a pin cushion with CoS from perma you will be able to narrow down even more his location since the knifes will stick into your character from the side they are being tossed, you just cant let the rogue stick too many of them on you before you realize where he is to land an aoe there.
Am I the only one that feels like even storm of steel....or whatever the at will ranged attack is hurts? I mean on both my CW and my GF I feel that they can stay in hiding and knock down 1/3 or so of my health?
Due to the skill sets, any competent Wiz should find them self hard pressed to die to an Rogue, the thing is.. Really, that is the job of any Assassin class, and in balanced out games, a Swift dagger to your throat from the shadows, should do massive damage, damage which should be compounded on Cloth wearing opponents.
To brain storm there are a few other things that might be a solution to this issue:
Most of the ideas seemed very naive and strictly from personal biased.
PS. Those wanting to reply about skill to avoid stealth dmg. Just stop it! I have watched recordings frame by frame and there is no pixel visible with FOV 75 before lashing blade (and throwing knifes or impact shot) hits.
>>> Then you need to up your graphics so that you can see they glaring red outline.
While I admit, this game needs some serious work as far as class balances go, they need to stick true to the Lore and Licensing.
To all those who whine (which is exactly what it is) about So and so Rogue killed me too fast from Stealth... All the whining is doing is serving to get your class the next place on the Nerf-Wagon. Once companies start "Nerfing", they do not normally stop for a very long time.
Tell me, how would you feel about them toning your Ice Knife down to half range and doing only about 5-10k dmg total with double the time to use again, while also making it so you can only Shadow walk (old term for Wiz Dodge) twice, and lowered your C/C skills range to 1/2 what it is now?
These are the sort of things you can likely look forward to happening to the Wiz class in time if so many players continue to whine and cry. Instead of spending so much time crying about another class so that it can be whittled down, try doing something constructive, work up some actual Data proving where your class is weak, and show that for the Mods & Devs.
As far as actual balance goes now days, this game is so rife with Script-Kiddies running the hack scripts, that until Cryptic gets rid of all of those accounts, and or works up enough security for this game to keep it (at least relatively) scripty free, there will never be a chance for balance.
People thought they got the "Permanent Stealth issue taken care of, yet all they did was make it so that ppl doing that via gear/skills innate to the class are not doing it, this has had no effect on the PermStlth players who were the real issue, because so many are running a script to do so just like all the others with unlimited Stamina for Dodges/Blocks, instant cast chains of large hit skills, instant Duelist's Furry, instant Bulls Charge 6 times in a row, and so on. The list just goes on. Nerfing only leads to classes being gutted, 1, then another, then another, as well with more, and more people running HackScripts
the problem is some of old player have geared well now from beta some of them are p2w they all want "bloodthirsty" title so all they do is play all day pvp and kill all type of players like newer and middle one and non paying one most of them i knw with greater enchantment's with perfect gear matched to play-style of that player like parma stealth (tr) or healing gwf or 15k gf ...........yes most of them can handle a team kill one or two and easily get out of battle to get healing potion .............its like they have made them self's very good now they can handle team or the match making is unfair ..........means put same iron to cut that iron ............and ya gwf are not op gf are not op i have seen 15k gf cant get kill if 2 player handle him correctly..........gwf said to be op but if u knw a healing gwf have all stat of defiance 3k def,2k deflect ,3k rec, and almost 300 to 500 AP and near 1 k crit , 3k power with these stat they can only def them self heal them self but not deal big amount of damage .......i am gwf my best dialy gives max only 14k crit and best encounter max 9k crit compare to tr 25 k crit its nothing ........so i think there is only thing is broken is parma stealth fix it and tr can killed like any other class .....................i think they must put a symbol over name in pvp to represent player's total strength that this guys is that much of power .........rather than saying they are all op with there skills .......sorry about my english
I hear ya man. I've said before I also 100% agree with the HAMSTER perma-stealth build. Its situational, but there are ways to counter them, and when you cant. Run away /shrug
well, if you have 2 rogues chasing you i gotta admit you are in a bad spot, but that would apply to 2 CWs/GWFs/GFs too, not so sure about 2 DCs but oh well... that doesnt really bring the feel that the class is OP, but rather that you are getting ganged and that is the problem. 2V1s hardly ends well for the minority side.
Actually every class besides CW can deal with two people at same time, if player is skilled. Even DCs can stall time efficiently provided one of the two is not a CW. Only time when it gets complicated, is when two mages are involved, or two perma stealth TRs. For CWs its plain and simple a death warrant. In 80 % out of 100% ganging happens at middle. Only way to make sure that dose not happen is to cheese pillar. Some CWs do it, i personally prefer not to unless i am pushed in to it. There is hardly anything a team can do since they are busy dealing with other two/three people. And even if they could help, what if those were TWO perma stealth rouges, where to aim to get them? In ether case i will be dead before they uncloak. I repeat i do not have problems with other TR builds its the perma broken stealth that bothers me.
Alo, if you managed to see a rogue and land 2 skills, then you only didnt kill him because you landed the wrong skills. Usually a CW that manages to get his hands around a rogue's throat isnt exactly gonna drop him untill he is dead, so my assumption is that you arent really using the right rotation.
TR was out gearing me by a long mile. There was nothing i could do about it. But my complain dose not lie in him out gearing me. Its him reentering stealth after 5-7 seconds, that means he is visible for enemy team for what 10% of the time, if not less. And that is broken, plain and simply broken.
Your class also have loads (at least way more than any other class) of aoe skills that dont really require target to be effective, and they usually are the key to draining the stealthbar from rogues, specially if you are contesting a point with him, because in order for the rogue to be contesting that point, he will be in a very limited circular area and deducing his location isnt particularly hard (not to mention you have 3 dodges against his CoS to pin down the damage and leave him harmless untill some time has passed and he recovered the charges), and lets not forget that if he is turning you into a pin cushion with CoS from perma you will be able to narrow down even more his location since the knifes will stick into your character from the side they are being tossed, you just cant let the rogue stick too many of them on you before you realize where he is to land an aoe there.
Contesting a point is one thing, you could argue its the most important but thats a two fold situation teammates can arrive on my side as well as on TRs. And we still have rest of the map with almost no narrow spaces. I failed to uncloak a stealth TR on a point with shield on numerous occasions. Have seen other CWs fail at it too. Shield even on tab has a very short range. In general this skill is just a burden in PvP. Steal time is another bad skill in PvP due to cast time. One can dodge out of it too easily. So that lives us with icy terrain, the only valid skill in my option and still in some situations even this skill is not enough to uncloak a stealth rouge. The only fool proof way how to get them out of it is a daily, that in it self should ring a bell for many. And three dodges people keep posting about is not a panacea for everything.
CWs much like DCs are simply not meant to do well in PvP. In right hands those classes can easily tip scales of the match but it requires an infinite amount of patience and in general ability to take BS at daily basis. In other words its way more effort and less gratitude and rewards then on stealth TRs part.
Actually CW and DC are already nerfed in to the ground when it comes to PvP. We are the classes that are forced to sacrifice capture points and linger behind. PvP will be in its golden triangle state for a long while. Perma stealth rouge is a PvP build exclusively so i doubt there will much of an uproar from PvE community if it gets toned down, which it desperately needs to.
Perma stealth rouge is a PvP build exclusively so i doubt there will much of an uproar from PvE community if it gets toned down, which it desperately needs to.
There is a thread in the TR class forum devoted to PvE permastealth. Several players use the build in PvE, including myself, due to the unique advantage it provides. So, it is by no means a PvP only build.
I think there would be a huge uproar from some in the community if they moved Sgt. Knox five feet to the left. I've seen a lot of uproar over very minor issues on the boards.
It's pretty hard to say how much there would be over losing PvE permastealth, as it is a fairly niche build with limited application. Occasionally, though, the fans of niche builds can cause a disproportionate amount of uproar when they lose their niche.
Not sure why people are refering to perma stealth? I never said anything about that. Perma stealth is obviously broken and I’m talking about doing substantial damage from stealth.
It’s the same with GWF pumping Unstoppable 24/7. It’s broken. No use debating it.
Personally I think GF is tough with 2-3 prones and shield and good burst.
CW’s Ice Knife is too powerful, especially when it hits for high 20k. Same with all CC abilities.
The lock-down in PVP is a general problem. It is possible to keep a person permanently proned/locked no matter what gear or skill that person has. These abilities are limited in most games, i.e. after 2-4 CC you get immune for a short duration or similar.
Learn to play? Please teach me Oh Mighty Smiter!
Scenario: You are a CW anywhere on the map. You’ve just been in a fight and has about 11k left of your 24k HP and 1 ports used. Out of nowhere you get an impact shot for 6500. How to dodge that? You never saw the rogue coming since he/she was stealth. You port once or twice and look around but see nothing. Bam, second impact shot hits you for another 6500 and you are dead. You need to learn to play!
Scenario 2: You stand at range with your team on the pad. Out of nowhere you get a lashing blade for 26k. No, there was NO indication before the blade hit you. The rogue was stealth before jumping from ledge/rounded the corner. You need to learn to play and stop QQ!
Please do not make any assumption that I suck as a player. I beg to differ. My point, in case you’ve missed it, is that there has to be a balance between risk and reward. Removing half or more of your opponent’s life with virtually no risk isn’t balanced.
What I’m not saying is to nerf the rogue. Maybe there need to be some corrections to rogues in general while visible? I have no problem with this.
I laugh hard every time a stealth rogue is hit by an Ice Knife, or knocked by a GF, for more than half of his/her life and prones BUT still has the mental awareness to stay stealthed!! Then again, I’m not an expert on D & D logic.
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marclovesvinaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 28Arc User
edited August 2013
I'm a DC, but I don't have any problem against TR's in PVP. We can kill us easily, but we can also kill them easily. They're squishy.
If you're a CW and always getting killed by a TR, there's a problem with you.
I'm a DC, but I don't have any problem against TR's in PVP. We can kill us easily, but we can also kill them easily. They're squishy.
If you're a CW and always getting killed by a TR, there's a problem with you.
I guess I'm not making myself clear here? It's not about getting killed, which I rarely am. It's about... hmm... read topic.
BTW, are you saying you can kill yourself AND rogues easily? Impressive.
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mctankypantsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
Removing or changing stealth destroys the fear factor in pvp. What it would do is effectively allow CW's and DC's to attack from range with little to now worry. They would see what was coming and not have to play as defensively. There are skills that other classes have that help to eliminate the effectiveness of TR's. Some of them have been mentioned already. GWF's have one (the name escapes me) that marks players in the vicinity.
The TR class is based on opportunity. They create it for themselves and their teams.
If you want pvp to be like a giant visible chess match, you can count me out. The unknown makes it exciting.
Maybe we should ask people playing other games to come over here with fresh eyes?
- Yo, do you like to play PVP in NW?
- Sure, what’s the deal?
- Well, you can either choose to be a TR which can move around and attack without being seen, or you can play other classes.
- Ok, what’s the downside of being invis? Is it like you do less damage or move slow?
- Naa, you'll do more damage from stealth and move faster than other classes. Actually, you will pretty much always be on top of most players killed!
- Is that true?
- Yes, and the best part is that attacking AND getting attacked doesn't break invis!
- Come on man, I'm not that dumb... Who would like to play against a TR?
- No, it's serious. Others think it's both fun and fearsome to play against a TR!
- Goodbye...
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mctankypantsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
You're stretching the truth of the mater Abacuser. You do lose stealth when you use certain skills.
You could very easily pick a CW/GF/GWF and dominate in pvp as well. Just look at all the top pvp teams and you'll notice they aren't stacked with TR's.
It's obvious you're hellbent on believing TR's are the end all pvp king. It's unfortunate that you don't see the forest for the trees.
Maybe we should ask people playing other games to come over here with fresh eyes?
- Yo, do you like to play PVP in NW?
- Sure, what’s the deal?
- Well, you can either choose to be a TR which can move around and attack without being seen, or you can play other classes.
- Ok, what’s the downside of being invis? Is it like you do less damage or move slow?
- Naa, you'll do more damage from stealth and move faster than other classes. Actually, you will pretty much always be on top of most players killed!
- Is that true?
- Yes, and the best part is that attacking AND getting attacked doesn't break invis!
- Come on man, I'm not that dumb... Who would like to play against a TR?
- No, it's serious. Others think it's both fun and fearsome to play against a TR!
- Goodbye...
Lol come on man. You left out the part that GWF can tank 4 players, GF can prone juggle kill anyone without them being able to do anything. CW can lock down almost anyone and slaughter them from full health while they're cc'd.
I kill TR's about 95% of the time on my GWF and GF and probably 75% on my CW.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
You're stretching the truth of the mater Abacuser. You do lose stealth when you use certain skills.
You could very easily pick a CW/GF/GWF and dominate in pvp as well. Just look at all the top pvp teams and you'll notice they aren't stacked with TR's.
It's obvious you're hellbent on believing TR's are the end all pvp king. It's unfortunate that you don't see the forest for the trees.
Not sure what I'm stretching? Is it possible to hit and get hit for huge amount of damage while invis? I would definitely say that.
Are you suggesting that rogues aren't on top with kills in most PVP rounds?
In PUGS you can take anything and dominate. For instance a Rogue using only his weapons.
Lol come on man. You left out the part that GWF can tank 4 players, GF can prone juggle kill anyone without them being able to do anything. CW can lock down almost anyone and slaughter them from full health while they're cc'd.
I agree that there are many issues in PVP, just as you say. No doubt about it.
You're stretching the truth of the mater Abacuser. You do lose stealth when you use certain skills.
You could very easily pick a CW/GF/GWF and dominate in pvp as well. Just look at all the top pvp teams and you'll notice they aren't stacked with TR's.
It's obvious you're hellbent on believing TR's are the end all pvp king. It's unfortunate that you don't see the forest for the trees.
I agree, let me say that I play all kinds of MMO's I love the rogue class, in NW its about the most fun way Iv played it. That being said, I get my butt kicked alot by GWF other TR and anyone who usually out gears me, when I am playing on my level I can hold my own, but to dominate I dont really have the skills for that, wish I did but its all about getting used to it I guess.
stealth is not that big a deal either AoE effects reduce it quickly, if you want to move faster in stealth you give up other good class abilities, if you wanna stay stealth longer you must give up dps so its a trade and takes critical timing to actually not die, any person can run around and spot you and tag you and finish my squishiness in litteral fractions of seconds.
so anyone can play well if they know the class that they are playing AND the class they are playing AGAINST! Know thy enemy. Usually to get a nerf without it being a real exploit in need of a nerf you got idots who complain about a op class they cant beat, idiots spend more money on a free to play game so I assume they are catering to the people who pay the bills more then the people who can play with minimum help through the pay process. thats my opinion don't mean to offend any idiots they allow me to play for free.
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mctankypantsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
You're stretching the truth in saying that TR's are the consummate wrecking balls in pvp. When in reality unless you're perma-stealth (Which is being fixed) you have to juke and move in order to survive while dealing damage. I don't understand why you're hung up on "huge damage while invis" because all the other classes aside from DC can deal huge damage while being in plain site.
I'm suggesting that Rogues aren't always on the top after a match. I used to group with a GF that would best me by 6-8 kills by the end up the match. He'd engage an enemy and they'd be dead before they could even think about picking themselves up off the floor.
If you want to argue that a CW or another TR can take massive damage from an invisible TR, I can see your point there. Most decently geared GF's, GWF's and DC's will just think you're trying to tickle them.
Not sure what I'm stretching? Is it possible to hit and get hit for huge amount of damage while invis? I would definitely say that.
Are you suggesting that rogues aren't on top with kills in most PVP rounds?
In PUGS you can take anything and dominate. For instance a Rogue using only his weapons.
I know I've said this a bunch but maybe it was in a different thread, TR's get top kills b/c they have high burst and they get the last hit all the time. My TR has gone like 29/1 before in a PUG, that doesn't mean I killed 29 people 1v1, I maybe killed 6-7 by myself and I aided my team (and took the last hit with LB or impact heh) in killing the other 22.
Yes in pugs a good TR can stay out of harms way and get last hits all day, but against good players TR is really not that strong. Lol to be totally honest I think TR is underpowered in premade vs. premade, at least from my experiences. LB can be dodged 90% of the time, you have to wait until they're cc'd to strike, and then again you're probably just kill stealing since the CW had them immobile and was bombing them already. You do literally nothing against a tank GWF, and GF's can prone juggle you to dead if they even have a hint of where you are.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I agree, let me say that I play all kinds of MMO's I love the rogue class, in NW its about the most fun way Iv played it. That being said, I get my butt kicked alot by GWF other TR and anyone who usually out gears me, when I am playing on my level I can hold my own, but to dominate I dont really have the skills for that, wish I did but its all about getting used to it I guess.
stealth is not that big a deal either AoE effects reduce it quickly, if you want to move faster in stealth you give up other good class abilities, if you wanna stay stealth longer you must give up dps so its a trade and takes critical timing to actually not die, any person can run around and spot you and tag you and finish my squishiness in litteral fractions of seconds.
Exactly, this is what sets TR apart from every other rogue class in every other game, stealth during combat is a unique and different concept and it's why a lot of people enjoy the class myself included. Why take away the most interesting and unique part about the class? If it needs tuning (which I don't think it currently does), then do it without ruining it's originality.
Tene's need the nerf not TR's.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
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mctankypantsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
I have to agree with Cribs. If anything, a TR is the clean up crew. You soften the enemy up. Push them back from points and help to finish them off. I tried to go mid verses 3 players the other day just to see if I could do it with invisibility and Lurkers. Guess what?
I was promptly put on my face and melted before I could attempt to use ITC or dodge anything. Once the GF started to track me I was done.
...
- Naa, you'll do more damage from stealth and move faster than other classes. Actually, you will pretty much always be on top of most players killed!
...
You're stretching the truth in saying that TR's are the consummate wrecking balls in pvp.
In my humble opinion it seems like the stretching comes from your direction?
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mctankypantsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
Everyone has their opinion and I'm not going to fault you for yours. I'm speaking from a TR's perspective and believe it's more about team composition more than anything.
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borgued3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 150Bounty Hunter
- Yes, and the best part is that attacking AND getting attacked doesn't break invis!
sows how much you know of the class man. Being attacked removes you from stealth, just not instantly. Think of it like this:
if a sink is clogged, the water will take some time to go away, but when you fix that problem, the water goes away almost in a instant.
the same applies to stealth. If the rogue takes 0 damage, stealth takes some time to fade away and gives plenty of space for refills, but the moment a rogue gets slapped, no mater how soft it was, the sink is no longer clogged and stealth will deplete like water on a rinser UNLESS the rogue use something imediatelly to refill stealth, which would completelly mess up his perma rotation.
Thats why i say to people play the class before posting about it, everybody just come and swing misinformation on the forum based on what they think to be the truth of the class, even when they never played it, but when someone plays a rogue and see how things really are, then we can actually talk.
The rogue must be able to walk around the map in stealth
but during the battle has to be visible.
all encounters have to spend stealth and not give refills
End of perma stealth!
the rest is a lot of crying and a little finger.
basically
Rogue and class to win and win well
CW to monitor and control well
DC is healing and tanking ... I think we still need to Improve
GF tanking and not if you compare with the GWF ... I find it very strange que a two-hand weapon can withstand more than a guy with shield
GWF ... needs to be revised
MassiveDMG TR 60 Half-Orc
Fandangos TR 60 Half-Orc
Massivewall GF 60 Human
Massive GWF 60 Human
I agree, let me say that I play all kinds of MMO's I love the rogue class, in NW its about the most fun way Iv played it. That being said, I get my butt kicked alot by GWF other TR and anyone who usually out gears me, when I am playing on my level I can hold my own, but to dominate I dont really have the skills for that, wish I did but its all about getting used to it I guess.
stealth is not that big a deal either AoE effects reduce it quickly, if you want to move faster in stealth you give up other good class abilities, if you wanna stay stealth longer you must give up dps so its a trade and takes critical timing to actually not die, any person can run around and spot you and tag you and finish my squishiness in litteral fractions of seconds.
so anyone can play well if they know the class that they are playing AND the class they are playing AGAINST! Know thy enemy. Usually to get a nerf without it being a real exploit in need of a nerf you got idots who complain about a op class they cant beat, idiots spend more money on a free to play game so I assume they are catering to the people who pay the bills more then the people who can play with minimum help through the pay process. thats my opinion don't mean to offend any idiots they allow me to play for free.
Yep i agree with this one...only one of the posts with a lot of sense
Nothing and I mean nothing screams OP more than Tene's, if you truly want any semblance of balance in PVP then they need to be dealt with because until then you can nerf and nerf more powers but you will still see unbalance at the core of any fight when those of any class use them when others don't.
Tenes are nothing but pure unadulterated P2W no matter how much you try and sugar coat it! Tene's will take moderate damage and turn it into EXTREME damage , there are no if and or but's, that's a fact!
I challenge anyone to dispute that, because if you do, you are only fooling yourself and you will never convince me otherwise.....
Everyone has their opinion and I'm not going to fault you for yours. I'm speaking from a TR's perspective and believe it's more about team composition more than anything.
I believe the most powerful power in this game is the sum of all and that's TEAMWORK and thru teamwork comes synergy. And teamwork should be something that everyone on each side strives for, most of the time when you see premades in pvp it's teamwork at it's finest.
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
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mctankypantsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
Your TR needs some serious manscaping. He has crazy eyebrows.
Comments
ding! ding! ding!
we can /thread now.
also:
well, if you have 2 rogues chasing you i gotta admit you are in a bad spot, but that would apply to 2 CWs/GWFs/GFs too, not so sure about 2 DCs but oh well... that doesnt really bring the feel that the class is OP, but rather that you are getting ganged and that is the problem. 2V1s hardly ends well for the minority side.
Alo, if you managed to see a rogue and land 2 skills, then you only didnt kill him because you landed the wrong skills. Usually a CW that manages to get his hands around a rogue's throat isnt exactly gonna drop him untill he is dead, so my assumption is that you arent really using the right rotation.
Your class also have loads (at least way more than any other class) of aoe skills that dont really require target to be effective, and they usually are the key to draining the stealthbar from rogues, specially if you are contesting a point with him, because in order for the rogue to be contesting that point, he will be in a very limited circular area and deducing his location isnt particularly hard (not to mention you have 3 dodges against his CoS to pin down the damage and leave him harmless untill some time has passed and he recovered the charges), and lets not forget that if he is turning you into a pin cushion with CoS from perma you will be able to narrow down even more his location since the knifes will stick into your character from the side they are being tossed, you just cant let the rogue stick too many of them on you before you realize where he is to land an aoe there.
>>> Then you need to up your graphics so that you can see they glaring red outline.
While I admit, this game needs some serious work as far as class balances go, they need to stick true to the Lore and Licensing.
To all those who whine (which is exactly what it is) about So and so Rogue killed me too fast from Stealth... All the whining is doing is serving to get your class the next place on the Nerf-Wagon. Once companies start "Nerfing", they do not normally stop for a very long time.
Tell me, how would you feel about them toning your Ice Knife down to half range and doing only about 5-10k dmg total with double the time to use again, while also making it so you can only Shadow walk (old term for Wiz Dodge) twice, and lowered your C/C skills range to 1/2 what it is now?
These are the sort of things you can likely look forward to happening to the Wiz class in time if so many players continue to whine and cry. Instead of spending so much time crying about another class so that it can be whittled down, try doing something constructive, work up some actual Data proving where your class is weak, and show that for the Mods & Devs.
As far as actual balance goes now days, this game is so rife with Script-Kiddies running the hack scripts, that until Cryptic gets rid of all of those accounts, and or works up enough security for this game to keep it (at least relatively) scripty free, there will never be a chance for balance.
People thought they got the "Permanent Stealth issue taken care of, yet all they did was make it so that ppl doing that via gear/skills innate to the class are not doing it, this has had no effect on the PermStlth players who were the real issue, because so many are running a script to do so just like all the others with unlimited Stamina for Dodges/Blocks, instant cast chains of large hit skills, instant Duelist's Furry, instant Bulls Charge 6 times in a row, and so on. The list just goes on. Nerfing only leads to classes being gutted, 1, then another, then another, as well with more, and more people running HackScripts
Go ahead and cry...
Your class will be next.
Thank you for posting those, they did help me out.
Actually every class besides CW can deal with two people at same time, if player is skilled. Even DCs can stall time efficiently provided one of the two is not a CW. Only time when it gets complicated, is when two mages are involved, or two perma stealth TRs. For CWs its plain and simple a death warrant. In 80 % out of 100% ganging happens at middle. Only way to make sure that dose not happen is to cheese pillar. Some CWs do it, i personally prefer not to unless i am pushed in to it. There is hardly anything a team can do since they are busy dealing with other two/three people. And even if they could help, what if those were TWO perma stealth rouges, where to aim to get them? In ether case i will be dead before they uncloak. I repeat i do not have problems with other TR builds its the perma broken stealth that bothers me.
TR was out gearing me by a long mile. There was nothing i could do about it. But my complain dose not lie in him out gearing me. Its him reentering stealth after 5-7 seconds, that means he is visible for enemy team for what 10% of the time, if not less. And that is broken, plain and simply broken.
Contesting a point is one thing, you could argue its the most important but thats a two fold situation teammates can arrive on my side as well as on TRs. And we still have rest of the map with almost no narrow spaces. I failed to uncloak a stealth TR on a point with shield on numerous occasions. Have seen other CWs fail at it too. Shield even on tab has a very short range. In general this skill is just a burden in PvP. Steal time is another bad skill in PvP due to cast time. One can dodge out of it too easily. So that lives us with icy terrain, the only valid skill in my option and still in some situations even this skill is not enough to uncloak a stealth rouge. The only fool proof way how to get them out of it is a daily, that in it self should ring a bell for many. And three dodges people keep posting about is not a panacea for everything.
CWs much like DCs are simply not meant to do well in PvP. In right hands those classes can easily tip scales of the match but it requires an infinite amount of patience and in general ability to take BS at daily basis. In other words its way more effort and less gratitude and rewards then on stealth TRs part.
Actually CW and DC are already nerfed in to the ground when it comes to PvP. We are the classes that are forced to sacrifice capture points and linger behind. PvP will be in its golden triangle state for a long while. Perma stealth rouge is a PvP build exclusively so i doubt there will much of an uproar from PvE community if it gets toned down, which it desperately needs to.
There is a thread in the TR class forum devoted to PvE permastealth. Several players use the build in PvE, including myself, due to the unique advantage it provides. So, it is by no means a PvP only build.
I think there would be a huge uproar from some in the community if they moved Sgt. Knox five feet to the left. I've seen a lot of uproar over very minor issues on the boards.
It's pretty hard to say how much there would be over losing PvE permastealth, as it is a fairly niche build with limited application. Occasionally, though, the fans of niche builds can cause a disproportionate amount of uproar when they lose their niche.
It’s the same with GWF pumping Unstoppable 24/7. It’s broken. No use debating it.
Personally I think GF is tough with 2-3 prones and shield and good burst.
CW’s Ice Knife is too powerful, especially when it hits for high 20k. Same with all CC abilities.
The lock-down in PVP is a general problem. It is possible to keep a person permanently proned/locked no matter what gear or skill that person has. These abilities are limited in most games, i.e. after 2-4 CC you get immune for a short duration or similar.
Learn to play? Please teach me Oh Mighty Smiter!
Scenario: You are a CW anywhere on the map. You’ve just been in a fight and has about 11k left of your 24k HP and 1 ports used. Out of nowhere you get an impact shot for 6500. How to dodge that? You never saw the rogue coming since he/she was stealth. You port once or twice and look around but see nothing. Bam, second impact shot hits you for another 6500 and you are dead. You need to learn to play!
Scenario 2: You stand at range with your team on the pad. Out of nowhere you get a lashing blade for 26k. No, there was NO indication before the blade hit you. The rogue was stealth before jumping from ledge/rounded the corner. You need to learn to play and stop QQ!
Please do not make any assumption that I suck as a player. I beg to differ. My point, in case you’ve missed it, is that there has to be a balance between risk and reward. Removing half or more of your opponent’s life with virtually no risk isn’t balanced.
What I’m not saying is to nerf the rogue. Maybe there need to be some corrections to rogues in general while visible? I have no problem with this.
I laugh hard every time a stealth rogue is hit by an Ice Knife, or knocked by a GF, for more than half of his/her life and prones BUT still has the mental awareness to stay stealthed!! Then again, I’m not an expert on D & D logic.
If you're a CW and always getting killed by a TR, there's a problem with you.
BTW, are you saying you can kill yourself AND rogues easily? Impressive.
The TR class is based on opportunity. They create it for themselves and their teams.
If you want pvp to be like a giant visible chess match, you can count me out. The unknown makes it exciting.
- Yo, do you like to play PVP in NW?
- Sure, what’s the deal?
- Well, you can either choose to be a TR which can move around and attack without being seen, or you can play other classes.
- Ok, what’s the downside of being invis? Is it like you do less damage or move slow?
- Naa, you'll do more damage from stealth and move faster than other classes. Actually, you will pretty much always be on top of most players killed!
- Is that true?
- Yes, and the best part is that attacking AND getting attacked doesn't break invis!
- Come on man, I'm not that dumb... Who would like to play against a TR?
- No, it's serious. Others think it's both fun and fearsome to play against a TR!
- Goodbye...
You could very easily pick a CW/GF/GWF and dominate in pvp as well. Just look at all the top pvp teams and you'll notice they aren't stacked with TR's.
It's obvious you're hellbent on believing TR's are the end all pvp king. It's unfortunate that you don't see the forest for the trees.
Lol come on man. You left out the part that GWF can tank 4 players, GF can prone juggle kill anyone without them being able to do anything. CW can lock down almost anyone and slaughter them from full health while they're cc'd.
I kill TR's about 95% of the time on my GWF and GF and probably 75% on my CW.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Are you suggesting that rogues aren't on top with kills in most PVP rounds?
In PUGS you can take anything and dominate. For instance a Rogue using only his weapons.
But I can see them and avoid if needed.
I agree, let me say that I play all kinds of MMO's I love the rogue class, in NW its about the most fun way Iv played it. That being said, I get my butt kicked alot by GWF other TR and anyone who usually out gears me, when I am playing on my level I can hold my own, but to dominate I dont really have the skills for that, wish I did but its all about getting used to it I guess.
stealth is not that big a deal either AoE effects reduce it quickly, if you want to move faster in stealth you give up other good class abilities, if you wanna stay stealth longer you must give up dps so its a trade and takes critical timing to actually not die, any person can run around and spot you and tag you and finish my squishiness in litteral fractions of seconds.
so anyone can play well if they know the class that they are playing AND the class they are playing AGAINST! Know thy enemy. Usually to get a nerf without it being a real exploit in need of a nerf you got idots who complain about a op class they cant beat, idiots spend more money on a free to play game so I assume they are catering to the people who pay the bills more then the people who can play with minimum help through the pay process. thats my opinion don't mean to offend any idiots they allow me to play for free.
I'm suggesting that Rogues aren't always on the top after a match. I used to group with a GF that would best me by 6-8 kills by the end up the match. He'd engage an enemy and they'd be dead before they could even think about picking themselves up off the floor.
If you want to argue that a CW or another TR can take massive damage from an invisible TR, I can see your point there. Most decently geared GF's, GWF's and DC's will just think you're trying to tickle them.
I know I've said this a bunch but maybe it was in a different thread, TR's get top kills b/c they have high burst and they get the last hit all the time. My TR has gone like 29/1 before in a PUG, that doesn't mean I killed 29 people 1v1, I maybe killed 6-7 by myself and I aided my team (and took the last hit with LB or impact heh) in killing the other 22.
Yes in pugs a good TR can stay out of harms way and get last hits all day, but against good players TR is really not that strong. Lol to be totally honest I think TR is underpowered in premade vs. premade, at least from my experiences. LB can be dodged 90% of the time, you have to wait until they're cc'd to strike, and then again you're probably just kill stealing since the CW had them immobile and was bombing them already. You do literally nothing against a tank GWF, and GF's can prone juggle you to dead if they even have a hint of where you are.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Exactly, this is what sets TR apart from every other rogue class in every other game, stealth during combat is a unique and different concept and it's why a lot of people enjoy the class myself included. Why take away the most interesting and unique part about the class? If it needs tuning (which I don't think it currently does), then do it without ruining it's originality.
Tene's need the nerf not TR's.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I was promptly put on my face and melted before I could attempt to use ITC or dodge anything. Once the GF started to track me I was done.
You wrote: In my humble opinion it seems like the stretching comes from your direction?
sows how much you know of the class man. Being attacked removes you from stealth, just not instantly. Think of it like this:
if a sink is clogged, the water will take some time to go away, but when you fix that problem, the water goes away almost in a instant.
the same applies to stealth. If the rogue takes 0 damage, stealth takes some time to fade away and gives plenty of space for refills, but the moment a rogue gets slapped, no mater how soft it was, the sink is no longer clogged and stealth will deplete like water on a rinser UNLESS the rogue use something imediatelly to refill stealth, which would completelly mess up his perma rotation.
Thats why i say to people play the class before posting about it, everybody just come and swing misinformation on the forum based on what they think to be the truth of the class, even when they never played it, but when someone plays a rogue and see how things really are, then we can actually talk.
but during the battle has to be visible.
all encounters have to spend stealth and not give refills
End of perma stealth!
the rest is a lot of crying and a little finger.
basically
Rogue and class to win and win well
CW to monitor and control well
DC is healing and tanking ... I think we still need to Improve
GF tanking and not if you compare with the GWF ... I find it very strange que a two-hand weapon can withstand more than a guy with shield
GWF ... needs to be revised
Fandangos TR 60 Half-Orc
Massivewall GF 60 Human
Massive GWF 60 Human
Server: Dragon
Yep i agree with this one...only one of the posts with a lot of sense
Nothing and I mean nothing screams OP more than Tene's, if you truly want any semblance of balance in PVP then they need to be dealt with because until then you can nerf and nerf more powers but you will still see unbalance at the core of any fight when those of any class use them when others don't.
Tenes are nothing but pure unadulterated P2W no matter how much you try and sugar coat it! Tene's will take moderate damage and turn it into EXTREME damage , there are no if and or but's, that's a fact!
I challenge anyone to dispute that, because if you do, you are only fooling yourself and you will never convince me otherwise.....
I believe the most powerful power in this game is the sum of all and that's TEAMWORK and thru teamwork comes synergy. And teamwork should be something that everyone on each side strives for, most of the time when you see premades in pvp it's teamwork at it's finest.
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!